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Old 07-19-2006, 05:36 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Two Red Crescent Ambulances en-route to assist 30 wounded in the town of Beit Hanoun have been destroyed by Israeli forces. According to Mads Gilbert, a doctor stationed in Gaza, it's not the first time the Red Crescent comes under fire from Israelis, and that the Israelis have killed "many" ambulance crewmen in this and earlier Gaza conflicts.

I ask myself again, as I have multiple times since they went into Lebanon: "Who do they think they are?!" Firing at civilians and the medical teams trying to help them?
Nick Berg and Margaret Hassan in Iraq. You point out that this is not the first time it has happened. If this was collateral damage then it makes it no less wrong but if Israel are deliberately targeting medical teams then they are fighting dirty, and in my mind have no right to take such action. But on the other hand in war there are no rules, some of the things in Vietnam is testement to that.

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Israel was given a bit of it and took 90% of the rest.Which they haven't?
Wasn't there any backlash against Israel over it? Why would America be in support of them?

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Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
You think they'd resort to suicide bombing if it was as easy as writing to the UN?
I do. Have they ever? From what I read they do it because they consider it more of an honor to martyr themselves killing Jews than to approach the UN and ask for aid in getting their land back. More honerable and judging by their reactions more enjoyable.

They are discussing the situation in the Middle East. The worst I heard was Bush saying he felt like ringing up Kofi and saying to call Bashad and make something happen. Is there anything specific I should be looking for? The fact Bush discovered he was being listened in on?
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Old 07-19-2006, 08:16 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
But on the other hand in war there are no rules, some of the things in Vietnam is testement to that.
This is INCORRECT.

Unless you are a TERRORIST, then you feel that there are no rules in war.

However, civilized people believe that there need to be rules of engagement. For example, killing a combat medic is considered a war crime. Even Nazi troops respected such a rule and did not fire on medics. It was the Communist forces that chose to target medics.

We have things called Geneva Conventions, which set the international laws of warfare. Terrorists do not abide by the Geneva Conventions; they are war criminals, also known as "bad people." It is clear that Israel also has no respect for the Geneva Conventions. They bomb little children playing in a park. They target ambulances. They target mosques. It sounds odd how there is literally no difference in what Israel is doing and what Hezbollah is doing. But Israel has killed over 300 people, injured over 1,000, and made 500,000 people into refugees. Hezbollah has no where near the capacity to do as much damage as Israel can.
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Old 07-19-2006, 08:45 PM   #83
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Why would America be in support of them?
Very good question. I considered starting a thread on this not too long ago: Why are the Israelis and the Americans so close allies? It reflects very poorly on the US, for one thing. Though with the USA's past dealings with questionable regimes, it's not like it doesn't make sense.

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But Israel has killed over 300 people, injured over 1,000, and made 500,000 people into refugees. Hezbollah has no where near the capacity to do as much damage as Israel can.
Exactly.

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Old 07-20-2006, 01:49 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
We have things called Geneva Conventions, which set the international laws of warfare. Terrorists do not abide by the Geneva Conventions; they are war criminals, also known as "bad people."
I notice how you continue citing the Geneva Conventions in your posts on this thread. I used your link (thank you very much ) to find out about the Geneva Conventions. From what I can tell it's probably the Fourth Geneva Convention that you are referring to since it outlines how the wounded, medical personnel, etc. are to be treated between two conflicting parties that have agreed to abide by the GC. It's pretty long though and after a cursory read I didn't find anything that stood out to me as a GCIV article that Israel had violated. So what part of the GC do you believe Israel has violated?

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Originally Posted by TK-8252
They bomb little children playing in a park. They target ambulances. They target mosques. It sounds odd how there is literally no difference in what Israel is doing and what Hezbollah is doing.
I wasn't aware that Israel is targeting ambulances, mosques, and children playing in a park. Where are you getting this information from?

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Originally Posted by TK-8252
But Israel has killed over 300 people, injured over 1,000, and made 500,000 people into refugees. Hezbollah has no where near the capacity to do as much damage as Israel can.
There is no doubt in my mind that the current conflict in northern Israel and southern Lebanon is very one-sided, in Israel's favor. Israel has a fully trained military with attack aircraft, artillery, tanks, etc. Hezbollah has assault rifles, RPG's, and some really old rockets that they fire off in Israel's direction, praying fervently that Allah will guide the missile to a choice target. Hezbollah should have known that Israel wasn't going to sit idly by on its hands when it attacked Israel's military patrol, killing and capturing Israel's soldiers. Of course neither Hezbollah or the Lebanese military forces (not sure if there is any real difference there) can hang with the Israeli military. Hezbollah would get slaughtered if they fought out in the open. So they resort to the tactic that will give them the greatest chance to survive in this situation, guerrilla warfare. Hezbollah fires off some rockets from a particular area and then hightail it out of there. Israel sends in its attack aircraft to bomb the area the rockets came from. Unfortunately its the innocent bystanders that get the short end of the stick in this scenario and pay with their lives. This is not without precedent in the annals of history. However I readily admit this does not justify Israel's actions.

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Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Very good question. I considered starting a thread on this not too long ago: Why are the Israelis and the Americans so close allies? It reflects very poorly on the US, for one thing. Though with the USA's past dealings with questionable regimes, it's not like it doesn't make sense.
America's support of Israel reflects poorly on the U.S. of A.? If you're a Muslim then I can understand this sentiment. If not then would you care to explain why you feel this way? While most countries don't support Israel's current military campaign in southern Lebanon many of these same countries have supported Israel in the recent past. If the majority of the member countries of the U.N. had not supported UN Resolution 181 back in 1947 then Israel would never have come into existence.


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Old 07-20-2006, 02:29 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
This is INCORRECT.

Unless you are a TERRORIST, then you feel that there are no rules in war.

However, civilized people believe that there need to be rules of engagement. For example, killing a combat medic is considered a war crime. Even Nazi troops respected such a rule and did not fire on medics. It was the Communist forces that chose to target medics.
I invoke Godwin's Law. I win.

Seriously, as a civillised people we respect and honor the Geneva convention, no question. As a civillised people we have to play by the rules. But people such as Al Qaeda, Hamas and other terrorist groups feel they don't have to. That is why Hamas hid in Lebanon in the hopes of escaping Israeli retalliation. But believe me, war is hell and there are no rules to hide behind. If the thought of Israel bombing Lebanon to kill Palestinions horrifies you, as it should, take a look at some of the actions of the Gulf War, or Vietnam. If recent history is more to your liking Abu Gharib are two words that strike terror into every liberal, democrat and really any sane civillised person. This is the kind of thing that happens in war. It shouldn't and the people who commit such atrocities should be cut off from the civillised world, but it does and no amount of crying about the rules is going to change that.

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Old 07-20-2006, 08:51 AM   #86
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I wasn't aware that Israel is targeting ambulances, mosques, and children playing in a park. Where are you getting this information from?
Worthwhile question, as I didn't post a link. All I had was a Norwegian article by the public TV channel NRK.
Linkie.

I'll work on finding you something you can actually read. Try this for starters (a way down there's a list of crimes committed by Israel).

And this. More about ambulances getting hit (scroll down).

Quote:
It's pretty long though and after a cursory read I didn't find anything that stood out to me as a GCIV article that Israel had violated. So what part of the GC do you believe Israel has violated?
Basically all of it.

Targetting civilians, targetting refugee camps, targetting the Red Crescenet and other medical personell. And that's just the violations of the 4th Convention.

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America's support of Israel reflects poorly on the U.S. of A.? If you're a Muslim then I can understand this sentiment. If not then would you care to explain why you feel this way?
Because regimes that brutally murder innocents deserve no political support whatsoever. And I do believe I don't have to follow a particular mythology, or dislike the Jews in general, to believe that.

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Seriously, as a civillised people we respect and honor the Geneva convention, no question. As a civillised people we have to play by the rules. But people such as Al Qaeda, Hamas and other terrorist groups feel they don't have to. That is why Hamas hid in Lebanon in the hopes of escaping Israeli retalliation. But believe me, war is hell and there are no rules to hide behind. If the thought of Israel bombing Lebanon to kill Palestinions horrifies you, as it should, take a look at some of the actions of the Gulf War, or Vietnam. If recent history is more to your liking Abu Gharib are two words that strike terror into every liberal, democrat and really any sane civillised person. This is the kind of thing that happens in war. It shouldn't and the people who commit such atrocities should be cut off from the civillised world, but it does and no amount of crying about the rules is going to change that.
What a wonderful, beautiful, heart-warm, and posimistic attitude. Not only that change and improvement is impossible, but the "two wrongs make a right"-rhetoric claiming that since others do it, it's acceptable.

I choose to not subscribe, however.

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Old 07-20-2006, 09:02 AM   #87
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Change and improvement are possible, and we should not accept that two wrongs make a right. That is why we condemn the likes of Private England for the torture of Iraqi prisoners, why people speak out against the terrorist suspects at Guantamano. Some people are beyond change however, they will not accept that their actions only bring condemnation and ruin to themselves. You can find a good example between the civillised world where we have torn down the barriers between sex, race and religion, and places such as Afghanistan when the Taliban ruled, where not following their ways led to death or slavery, and women were lucky to be treated the way we might treat a camel. It is because we are able to recognise and despise the barbaric actions of those who are caught up in the madness of war that makes us better people.
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Old 07-20-2006, 01:11 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Targetting civilians, targetting refugee camps, targetting the Red Crescenet and other medical personell. And that's just the violations of the 4th Convention.
Collective punishment is also illegal.
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Old 07-20-2006, 04:30 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
Collective punishment is also illegal.
So is terrorism, kidnapping, and launching unguided missiles into cities and towns...


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Old 07-20-2006, 04:32 PM   #90
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So is terrorism, kidnapping, and launching unguided missiles into cities and towns...
All of which Israel is also guilty of.
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Old 07-20-2006, 05:23 PM   #91
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Why exactly do we have to lay blame on a single side? These people have been arguing with each other for thousands of years. And many, many times it has come to blows.

As far as I'm concerned, they're both equally guilty. Is the Israeli government targeting EMTs and children? No, of course not. They would lose their support. Is the IDF grunt targeting anyone he feels is a terrorist son of a bitch? You bet.

Would some Hezzbolah nutcase come to your house and kick your puppy, dump on your upholstery, and shoot you in the face? If he thought you were the enemy, you'd better believe he would.

These people are not plastic figurines without emotion sitting upon a world map. Every last one of these people are fightning tooth and nail for what they believe.

And they both believe the blood of the enemy has to be spilt.
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Old 07-20-2006, 05:50 PM   #92
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Is the Israeli government targeting EMTs and children? No, of course not. They would lose their support.
I would have thought so too, if I didn't know better. Israel has been targetting refugee camps and the likes for a long time. Lots of regimes resort to that when fighting guerillas, and it's a huge mistake as it merely breeds more hatred and resistance.

When a squadron of gunship helicopters swoop in and fire on refugee camps, they do it on orders from above.

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Old 07-20-2006, 06:11 PM   #93
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They would lose their support.
You'd think they would. But the people in Israel have the idea that they're god's freakin' people and they can do whatever they want. It's the same attitude that Islamic terrorists have.

Why so many Americans have always supported Israel I have no clue. It must just be because they'd support any regime with Judeo-Christian ties, rather than secular governments in Europe (with the exception of Britain, because of their cultural connections).
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Old 07-20-2006, 08:04 PM   #94
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You'd think they would. But the people in Israel have the idea that they're god's freakin' people and they can do whatever they want. It's the same attitude that Islamic terrorists have.
And the "God Blessed America" neo-cons (not that I'm saying there's as bad as the terrorists). Maybe that's it? God's two chosen people working together for the common good?

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Old 07-20-2006, 08:09 PM   #95
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The US government supports israel because the israeli/jewish lobby is a powerful force in US politics. Simple as that.

The jews got screwed in WW2, but as a result of that the western governments screwed the muslims in anattempt to make up for the atttrocities commited against the jews. Also, as a result of the events in WW2 it became politically incorrect (god, can't beleive i used that phrase!) to criticise or blame the jewish people for anything.. so US politicians, always worried about appearing correct for their voters, were never willing to offend the powerful jewish lobby groups.

Unfortunatley for the poor palestinians/muslims, they never had a united front, never could put as many US voters behind their cause, and never could claim that any slight agaist them was a case of anti-semitism.

To think that merely because the US supporst israel over palestine makes the israeli cause just is to be ignorant of all the domestic and international politics involved.

Its also worth pointing out that the UN decreed decades ago that Israel had illegally seized territory... but the support of the US has always precluded the UN from enforcing those borders on Israel. SO its fair to say that the palesinians DID go to the UN, the USA blocked the UN and THEN the palestinians resorted to suicide bomings and other such tactics.

To claim that anyone would rather resort to suicide bombing than a reasonable alternative is insane. People resort to suicide bombing when all the other alternatives have been exhausted.
And to be fair it works, as if they didn't resort to suicide bombings then the odds are that none of us would have even heard of the middle east, or the fact that millions of palestinians had lost their land.

(i'd be really interested to see ANY source that shows that yasser arafat calle dfor child suicide bombers.. as that sounds like rubbish to me. )

It seems like Nancy Allen is assuming that Israel is right because the USA supports it, and then trying to make the facts fit that conculsion. In which case its worth remembering that the USA has at one time or another supported the Taliban, Al Quaida and Saddam Hussein...

--

I don't believe that the israeli troops intentionally target ambulances... but i don't believe they make ny effort to avoid them either. Morally i'm not usre there is much difference.
If u want i can crank out google and search for the videos of israeli tropps shooting unarmed children, breaking suspected millitants arms with rocks, and shooting unarmed peace protestors.
Suffice to say that the israeli army isn't that bothered about collateral damage.

Is it even collateral damage when 100 civilians die to kill 2 militants??? Is that an acceptable ratio?

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PS/ The lebonese army and the hezbollah militia are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT organisations. To equat ehte two is like saying that the Irish police force is the same as the IRA.



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Old 07-20-2006, 08:15 PM   #96
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Norway, Brazil, the Vatican, the EU as a whole, Russia, the UN, and many other nations all condemn the Israeli actions. The Norwegian SV (Socialist Left) party is debating a Norwegian boycott of all Israeli goods.

As for the USA: Look at this list of sanctions against Israel and note which country vetoes nearly all of them.

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Old 07-20-2006, 09:04 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
And the "God Blessed America" neo-cons (not that I'm saying there's as bad as the terrorists). Maybe that's it? God's two chosen people working together for the common good?
So God is a terrorist now?

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Originally Posted by toms
The jews got screwed in WW2, but as a result of that the western governments screwed the muslims in anattempt to make up for the atttrocities commited against the jews. Also, as a result of the events in WW2 it became politically incorrect (god, can't beleive i used that phrase!) to criticise or blame the jewish people for anything.. so US politicians, always worried about appearing correct for their voters, were never willing to offend the powerful jewish lobby groups.
Fair enough. But that does not mean they are justified in their actions now. We are sorry that the holocaust happened and have done everything we can to make amends for it, but I do believe with the news I have seen in the past couple of days that Israel is going too far.

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Originally Posted by toms
Its also worth pointing out that the UN decreed decades ago that Israel had illegally seized territory... but the support of the US has always precluded the UN from enforcing those borders on Israel. SO its fair to say that the palesinians DID go to the UN, the USA blocked the UN and THEN the palestinians resorted to suicide bomings and other such tactics.
Can you provide a link of the Palestinions approaching the UN and America not allowing them to? It's well known they ignored them in going to war with Iraq so it'll be interesting to see what else they had defied the UN on.

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To claim that anyone would rather resort to suicide bombing than a reasonable alternative is insane.
In our eyes, and the eyes of anyone who is sane, it is. To those who follow militant Islam however it is considered an honor to martyr yourself killing your enemies, whether it be Jews, the West or Muslim traitors.

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And to be fair it works, as if they didn't resort to suicide bombings then the odds are that none of us would have even heard of the middle east, or the fact that millions of palestinians had lost their land.
Worked in the negative mostly, as people would see the suicide bombings on civillian, not military or government targets, and see them as terrorists, and whether or not you support Hamas that is exactly how they should be seen.

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(i'd be really interested to see ANY source that shows that yasser arafat calle dfor child suicide bombers.. as that sounds like rubbish to me. )
Here's your f'n source.

http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=17080

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Originally Posted by toms
It seems like Nancy Allen is assuming that Israel is right because the USA supports it, and then trying to make the facts fit that conculsion. In which case its worth remembering that the USA has at one time or another supported the Taliban, Al Quaida and Saddam Hussein...
Well duh, you make it sound as if that wasn't common knowledge. America has a reputation of people turning on them, and if they are not careful Israel could be the next ones to do so. I support the Jews and Israel because of Hitler's attempt at genocide, at the Palestinions trying to kill as many of them as they can, for how they've been mocked and slurred against. Frankly I don't give a crap about history from thousands of years ago, how does that show what Israel is today? But I will be very clear on this, America or the UN, someone should deliver an ultimatum to the Israelis given how it has come to light their deliberate targeting of civillian targets. 72 hours, if that isn't unreasonable, to cease fire, otherwise in my opinion they should nuke or carpet bomb the lot of them. Israel, Palestine and Lebanon. If these are the tactics they are going to employ then they can burn for all I care.

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Originally Posted by toms
I don't believe that the israeli troops intentionally target ambulances... but i don't believe they make ny effort to avoid them either. Morally i'm not usre there is much difference.
If u want i can crank out google and search for the videos of israeli tropps shooting unarmed children, breaking suspected millitants arms with rocks, and shooting unarmed peace protestors.
Suffice to say that the israeli army isn't that bothered about collateral damage.
Actually they are deliberately targeting civillians, it was on the news last night. As I said this is the kind of thing that happens in war, and being a realist that is not going to change no matter how many times people cry about the Geneva Convention. With that said, anyone who does commit these atrocities ought to be fried.

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Originally Posted by toms
Is it even collateral damage when 100 civilians die to kill 2 militants??? Is that an acceptable ratio?
No it's not. 1 civillian casulty for an entire war is unacceptable, but this goes beyond collateral damage and is closer to exactly what the Palestinions have been doing, what the suicide bombers in London and the hijackers in New York and Washington have done.
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Old 07-20-2006, 09:18 PM   #98
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So God is a terrorist now?
Every religion throughout history, including those thriving today, paints god as probably the worst man that ever existed. If god was a current world leader he would have been put on trial for crimes against humanity. He would have killed more innocent people than Stalin, Hilter, and all the horrible kings and warlords had killed COMBINED.

Just think of it. He didn't like what people were doing, so he FLOODED the planet, killing EVERYONE (love that collective punishment)! Innocent people, right down to the last child.

God sends little children who are killed to hell because they chose to believe what their parents taught them (not the "right" religion).

If god isn't the biggest terrorist ever, I don't know who is.

Of course this is all off-topic. And I don't believe in god anyway.
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Old 07-20-2006, 09:21 PM   #99
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Why do they follow him then if he is that bad? For that matter, why did he send his son to die for our sins if he is half as evil as you paint him?
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Old 07-20-2006, 09:32 PM   #100
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Why do they follow him then if he is that bad?
Ignorance, superstition, indoctrination, fear, etc. It's a separate topic though.

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For that matter, why did he send his son to die for our sins if he is half as evil as you paint him?
Ah, just like a preacher with his hand in your pocketbook would want you to think. That story makes no sense. "Die for our sins?" What good does that do? Does it make our sins less bad? Besides, he was resurrected FFS. What's so bad about dying if you get to go chill with your pops up in heaven being worshipped 24/7.

It was a publicity stunt. Like when Hitler or Stalin would pose for a picture or a portrait with children. Same kinda deal. Eh, why would Hitler smile with a group of children if he was so evil. Sure seems like a nice man.

Totally off-topic though.
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Old 07-20-2006, 11:09 PM   #101
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Why do they follow him then if he is that bad?
I wonder why Stockholme Syndrome exists.



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Old 07-21-2006, 03:10 AM   #102
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I wonder why Stockholme Syndrome exists.
The long and short end of it is it is a survival instinct, in so that in a bid to escape death at the hands of captors hostages start identifying with them and may even go further into outright colloberation.

People are allowed to believe what they like, even if it is something as contraversial as God is the biggest monster in history. I will say this though: if you are right and Christians around the world are wrong then the ones I know have lost absolutely nothing in following Christ and have gained more than you can imagine.
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Old 07-21-2006, 03:16 AM   #103
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I will say this though: if you are right and Christians around the world are wrong then the ones I know have lost absolutely nothing in following Christ and have gained more than you can imagine.
Ha, I'll keep my money thankyouverymuch, rather than giving it to some greedy pastor.
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Old 07-21-2006, 03:22 AM   #104
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Tithing, yes. This is a rather sticky area, as are many parts of the Bible. I can honestly say that, not getting into the 'greedy pastor' thing at all, that if it is an issue for you and you (I'll say here and now that as much as they may focus on it tithing is not a requirement) then you should read up on it, try and find the answers to some of the difficult questions, as knowing that you don't have to give a tenth of your earnings or that much of the Old Testement is done away with is really a weight off the shoulders.
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Old 07-21-2006, 08:18 AM   #105
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US condemns Israel.

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So God is a terrorist now?
Probably yes, but that's not what I said. I'm just wondering why Israel has US support.

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Can you provide a link of the Palestinions approaching the UN and America not allowing them to?
I just did (the link about the USA vetoing every attempt of the UN to take action).

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In our eyes, and the eyes of anyone who is sane, it is. To those who follow militant Islam however it is considered an honor to martyr yourself killing your enemies, whether it be Jews, the West or Muslim traitors.
But when did they start this encouragement of suicide bombing? Before or after the US stopped them from going the diplomatic way through this?

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Worked in the negative mostly, as people would see the suicide bombings on civillian, not military or government targets, and see them as terrorists, and whether or not you support Hamas that is exactly how they should be seen.
Much better than not working at all.

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For that matter, why did he send his son to die for our sins if he is half as evil as you paint him?
Now that's a good thing to do? Killing an innocent man instead of punishing the guilty?

If Bush had one of his daughters executed for the Sins of the rapists and murderers in the US, would that make him a good person? No, it'd make him a madman.


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Old 07-21-2006, 09:36 AM   #106
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Its weird, we appear to have swapped sides at some point.

That story is interesting, but its worth bearing in mind that it appears to be a very biased propoganda site, not a serious news outlet. And having searched around the web i can find a lot of references to that report (usually on pro-israel websites where they use it as an excuse to get into anti-arafat rages) but no other, unbiased references to it.

thats the problem with the interent, anyone can stick up a site claiming to be an independent news site, and it gets very hard to tell if they really are.

Whatever people's views of Arafat's actions behind the scenes, he was always very careful to publicly distance himself from terrorism once he became elected and won the nobel peace prize... i can't believe he'd be daft enough to make such comments, especially infornt of a tv crew.

AFAIK there have never been any suicide bombers below 16, and only ever 9 below 18. I know the isralis have killed or caught a few kids that they thought were planning attacks, but all the palisinian groups have, at least publicly, condemned the use of children in fighting and said they don't do it.

though of course you tend to grow up a lot quicker if you live in the middle of a war...



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Old 07-21-2006, 02:08 PM   #107
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The long and short end of it is it is a survival instinct, in so that in a bid to escape death at the hands of captors hostages start identifying with them and may even go further into outright colloberation.
As a comparison, that's very much why some, or maybe most, religious folk tend to believe in a God: it's a bid of faith to escape death. Some would even liken the actual religous bureaucracies here on Earth to the hostage takers.

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People are allowed to believe what they like, even if it is something as contraversial as God is the biggest monster in history. I will say this though: if you are right and Christians around the world are wrong then the ones I know have lost absolutely nothing in following Christ and have gained more than you can imagine.
Pascal's Wager.

The logic behind the wager is fine, except it doesn't constitute a true belief. It's merely a safeguard and the wisest choice in terms of potential gain.(Well, the only choice in potential gain. )

However, if you meant that by following Christ and learning from the Bible I will learn more than I ever could imagine; could I not learn just a much from reading the Bible, and not necessarily believing in it?



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Old 07-21-2006, 02:10 PM   #108
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Well, sounds liek israel has just sent in ground troops... and of course the lebanese government has said it will send its troops, who have so far remained out of the conflict, down to defend lebanon.

Also, they've started burying civilians in mass graves in cities like Trye, as the risk of infection was too great with all the bodies lying around. Bit depressing when you see the number of small childrens coffins lying among the larger ones.

It'll be interesting to see if any war crimes charges are brought once this is all over. The UN seems to reckon that both sides may have committed war crimes, but it'll be hard to bring either side to justice.



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Old 07-21-2006, 05:24 PM   #109
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Hezbollah's unexpected firepower

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Old 07-24-2006, 08:51 PM   #110
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There was footage on MSNBC of a destroyed Lebanese ambulance charred in the street. The driver explained that they were the only ones on the road when they were hit by an Israeli airstrike. He is now in the hospital himself.

Also there was footage of the survivors of another Israeli airstrike on a civilian car attempting to flee the chaos. The children had burns on their body. Their father was killed. The Israelis are packing their bombs with chemical weapons to drop on civilian targets. Two war crimes in one. Mind-blowing.

Israel has fired over 20,000 artillery shells into Lebanon. The artillery shells are untargetted. Hezbollah has fired over 1,000 rockets into Israel. They are also untargetted and a lot of them land harmlessly in the uninhabited countryside.

Oh yeah, and over 1/3 of all victims of Israeli attacks on Lebanon have been children.

Seriously, there is something wrong here. How can the world POSSIBLY just stand by and watch as Israel destroys an innocent country and slaughters by the hundreds its people and wounds and disfigures thousands more. And they have sent over 700,000 people fleeing from their homes. A lot of these people, in the process of fleeing, are targetted, at the same time that Israel drops leaflets telling people to flee their homes. Then there's that whole "all the roads, bridges, highways, ports and airports have either been blown to pieces or have been blockaded."

Also the Israelis have been blowing up banks suspected of having Hezbollah accounts. They even went the distance of blowing up a bank manager's home. If that's not terrorism I don't know what is.

If the UN doesn't bring war crimes charges against Israel then the slight bit of faith I had in the UN to not be a complete waste of time will be lost.
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Old 07-24-2006, 11:59 PM   #111
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I'd heard that a very high proportion of the victms had been children. Im not entirely clear on why that should be the case though.
I suppose that if people tend to have much larger families in smaller spaces then you might end up with a situation where there is a higher percentage of kids than there might be in the west.?



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Old 07-25-2006, 06:27 AM   #112
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Hezbollah has fired over 1,000 rockets into Israel. They are also untargetted and a lot of them land harmlessly in the uninhabited countryside.
You say that as if it's deliberate. And yes, your faith in the UN is wasted. Anyone that knows anything knows that the UN is useless.


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Old 07-25-2006, 06:58 AM   #113
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You say that as if it's deliberate. And yes, your faith in the UN is wasted. Anyone that knows anything knows that the UN is useless.
Deliberate or not, not really the issue. Suppose a psychotic child attacks you with a slightly blunt penknife and you respond with a concerted blast from an AK-47.

In this analogy, Hezbollah is the psycho kid, and Israel is you. Disproportionate response to threat. That's why the global community is up in arms.

And you're right about the UN, sadly. The UN is as ineffectual as the US electoral system. That doesn't mean that it should be LEFT in this state, however. I'd like to see the UN become the major governing body of the world. Would make a change from the US.


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Old 07-25-2006, 09:39 AM   #114
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And in the long term it would be in the US's interests to reshape the UN into something effective NOW (while they have the might to control that shaping) before CHINA becomes the major governing body of the world.

I'd think even those int he US who seem to have an irrational hatred of the UN would rather have a fixed UN than China as the world's policeman.

A UN who didn't have all it's Israel related decisions vetoed by the US would be a good way towards being fixed.. and then they might have actually stepped in and fixed this problem a decade or so ago before hundreds of thousands died.

Hezbollah may fire rockets at israli cities, but the aim is more to cause fear than to cause specific civilian casualties. Htey know that their rockets are unguided and unlikely to hit any specific target. That doesn't make it right, but its a relatively minor and insubstantial threat.. and the lethality to civilians of the Israeli "targetted response" seems much higher than the attempts by hezbollah.

So, is it worse to try and kill a few people, or to knowlingly comit an action that will have the side effect of killing hundreds?



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Old 07-25-2006, 09:40 AM   #115
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And in the long term it would be in the US's interests to reshape the UN into something effective NOW (while they have the might to control that shaping) before CHINA becomes the major governing body of the world.

I'd think even those int he US who seem to have an irrational hatred of the UN would rather have a fixed UN than China as the world's policeman.

A UN who didn't have all it's Israel related decisions vetoed by the US would be a good way towards being fixed.. and then they might have actually stepped in and fixed this problem a decade or so ago before hundreds of thousands died.

Hezbollah may fire rockets at israli cities, but the aim is more to cause fear than to cause specific civilian casualties. Htey know that their rockets are unguided and unlikely to hit any specific target. That doesn't make it right, but its a relatively minor and insubstantial threat.. and the lethality to civilians of the Israeli "targetted response" seems much higher than the attempts by hezbollah.

So, is it worse to try and kill a few people, or to knowlingly comit an action that will have the side effect of killing hundreds?



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Old 07-25-2006, 10:54 AM   #116
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If the UN doesn't bring war crimes charges against Israel then the slight bit of faith I had in the UN to not be a complete waste of time will be lost.
It doesn't matter if they do or not. Whenever they try, the bastards in the US government vetoes the decision, as toms said.
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And you're right about the UN, sadly. The UN is as ineffectual as the US electoral system. That doesn't mean that it should be LEFT in this state, however. I'd like to see the UN become the major governing body of the world. Would make a change from the US.
Exactly. The neo-cons can whine about the UN all they want, but they forget that sometimes there are other solutions than throwing something out of it's broken. There's something called "repairs", too.

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Old 07-25-2006, 04:34 PM   #117
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If the UN doesn't bring war crimes charges against Israel then the slight bit of faith I had in the UN to not be a complete waste of time will be lost.
If the UN does bring war crimes charges against Israel, it should bring just as many or more against Hezbollah for hiding munitions in homes, using homes as launch-pads for rockets, and using ambulances to transport terrorists.
Hezbollah knows the 'rules' of war, and have adapted their tactics accordingly. The simple truth is that if Israel follows those rules, nothing will be done - they will have to allow the terrorists to live because the terrorists have adapted their tactics for precisely that reason.

And if you had any faith that in the UN to not be a complete waste of time, you must have a screw loose or something. Kofi Annan has been out there urging a cease-fire. Hezbollah, in response, has said that it is ready and willing to negotiate toward a cease-fire. Go figure! Israel is kicking their butts! Hezbollah, at this point, has little choice but to take the diplomatic route. A cease-fire is about the only thing short of an Iranian nuclear warhead detonating over Jerusalem that could possibly ensure Hezbollah's continued survival. And, even better for the terrorists, Israel comes out looking like the bad guys when they refuse to negotiate again with the terrorists! The United Nations, supposedly the world's best hope for peace, is playing right into the terrorists' hands with these continued calls for a cease-fire. What they don't seem to realize is that there have been cease-fires before. If cease-fires were the answer here, this conflict would have been resolved a long time ago. However, with their calls for a cease-fire, world leaders such as Kofi Annan show that they are either ignorant to the lessons of history, or are outright ignoring those lessons.
If cease-fires ensured peace, then the Israel/Gaza/Lebanon area would be the most peaceful region on Earth. As history has shown, though, all a cease-fire accomplishes is to give the terrorists a reprieve - a chance to heal their wounds, re-arm, and prepare further attacks on Israel. Israel has entered into cease-fire agreements in the past, and it has gotten them nothing but an eventual continuation of hostilities when the terrorists violate the cease-fire agreements.

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Exactly. The neo-cons can whine about the UN all they want, but they forget that sometimes there are other solutions than throwing something out of it's broken. There's something called "repairs", too.
The problem is that the United Nations needs more fixing than just the US can give it. Not only is the UN rife with corruption, but it has shown that about the only thing it does effectively is to write nasty letters and pass meaningless resolutions (such as Resolution 1555, which Israel is now enforcing over Kofi Annan's protests). Fixing the United Nations is going to require the cooperation of many of the member nations, and too many of those nations are either brutal dictatorships that have been granted legitimacy by their UN membership, such as when Libya was made the chair of the Human Rights Council in 2003.

There is so much hatred and blame here toward Israel for doing what it takes to kill the terrorists...how about blaming the terrorists for using tactics that put civilians in harm's way? For some reason, that just never seems to come up...


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Old 07-25-2006, 04:41 PM   #118
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So, is it worse to try and kill a few people, or to knowlingly comit an action that will have the side effect of killing hundreds?
So you're saying that firing blindly into Israel and killing civillians is not as bad as deliberately targeting Lebanese innocents? I'll tell you right now that's BS. You commit an act knowing that it would kill civillians, you deserve to die. You hate Israel, as far as I'm concerned they should be obliterated for their actions. If it would make you happy then I'd be willing to take anyone who carried out those attacks on Lebanon and put two in the back of their head myself. There is no justification to putting civillians in the firing line. Hezbollah had no right to by hiding in Lebanon, Israel had no right to by continuing their attacks on civillians and Lebanon has no right to by launching rockets that would kill civillians. Throw Hiroshima at me all you want, if you want to make sacrifices then sacrifice the lives of soldiers, they are the ones who are meant to be fighting and dieing. But never ask me to accept the killing of civillians, because it's not.

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This is the kind of thing that happens in war. It shouldn't and the people who commit such atrocities should be cut off from the civillised world, but it does and no amount of crying about the rules is going to change that.
You might think what I said is contradictory to this. Well damn straight it happens, but as I said it is never something we should accept. To try and justify it in any way, shape or form, to claim that Lebanon is acting in self defense, is not only crap but double standered because by rights Israel would be acting in self defense as well, making it one rule for who you root for and another for the enemy. I was pulling for Israel until they commited the acts they had. Now they should be made to pay for their war crimes. So please, don't think I'm shallow on the topic of atrocities that occur in war, because I'm not. They happen, nothing is going to change that. But those who commit them, quite frankly, can burn in hell.
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Old 07-25-2006, 06:33 PM   #119
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Four UN observers have been killed at their base in Southern Lebanon by Israeli air raids. Sweet, now they're attacking the UN. I guess sending a peacekeeping force would be a bad idea, because while Hezbollah would be trying to blow the peacekeepers to pieces, Israel would actually do it.

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If the UN does bring war crimes charges against Israel, it should bring just as many or more against Hezbollah for hiding munitions in homes, using homes as launch-pads for rockets, and using ambulances to transport terrorists.
And I'd like to see Hezbollah disarmed, its militia crushed, and its terrorists put on trial and convicted for those crimes.

I'd also like the Israeli leadership held accountable for their crimes which, if you have any respect for human life at all, are far worse than what Hezbollah has done.

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The simple truth is that if Israel follows those rules, nothing will be done - they will have to allow the terrorists to live because the terrorists have adapted their tactics for precisely that reason.
Because it's either "destroy Lebanon" or "give up" right? There's no wiggle room. There's no way to work together with the Lebanese government to clean up Hezbollah's act and rid Lebanon of terrorists. There's just NO WAY! Hey I have a solution to this mess. Destroy the earth and we have peace. It's really that simple. After all, the ends justify the means.

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Originally Posted by rccar328
Israel is kicking their butts!
Maybe if you're watching Faux News. But the sane press has reported that Hezbollah continues attacking Israel and killing innocent people there as if they were untouched. Hundreds of rockets are still hitting Israel. The leadership of Hezbollah remains untouched. Only a few Hezbollah terrorists have been killed or captured. The vast majority of the victims of Israeli strikes have been, well, innocent civilians, over 1/3 of those being children.

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A cease-fire is about the only thing short of an Iranian nuclear warhead detonating over Jerusalem
Do you honestly think that Iran would nuke Jerusalem? Why would a bunch of Muslims bomb their own holy city? If Israelis were occupying Mecca, would the Iranians bomb Mecca?

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Originally Posted by rccar328
The United Nations, supposedly the world's best hope for peace, is playing right into the terrorists' hands with these continued calls for a cease-fire.
Ah, but it is Israel that has played EXACTLY into the terrorists' hands by bombing those civilians that they're hiding among. On the steets of Lebanon, who is getting support from this: Israel or Hezbollah? If you say Israel then you're nuts. Let's remember that a lot of people in Lebanon were NOT religious radicals. But they are now. Sigh.

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Originally Posted by rccar328
There is so much hatred and blame here toward Israel for doing what it takes to kill the terrorists...how about blaming the terrorists for using tactics that put civilians in harm's way? For some reason, that just never seems to come up...
The terrorists aren't the ones dropping bombs on populated Lebanese cities. They're not killing terrorists and if you believe they are then you are mistaken. Over 1/3 of the deaths in Lebanon have been children. I don't know about you, but I don't defend the intentional killing and wounding of children. Maybe you do, but I hope you don't. Hezbollah is murdering innocent people including children in Israel and for that they deserve the same treatment that Israel deserves. We don't waste our time condemning Hezbollah because that would be redundant. We all agree that Hezbollah sucks, but apparently not everyone agrees that Israel does too.
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Old 07-25-2006, 08:53 PM   #120
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For those who want to boycott Israel.

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