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Old 08-01-2006, 02:28 PM   #161
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The thing I find most disgusting is the condemnation of Israel and defense of Hezbollah terrorists. Israel is criticized again and again for killing civilians, yet they are going to some lengths to issue warnings before bombing raids.
Answer that one yourself. Israel-lickers such as yourself are doing the same thing - only the other way around.

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Compared to Lebanon, civilian casualties in Israel have been extremely low. Why is this? Perhaps because Israel allows its citizens to find cover in bomb shelters, while it is in Hezbollah's best intersts for civilians to be killed. In fact, Hezbollah has even been preventing civilians from leaving villages in Southern Lebanon.
Or perhaps because Israel's military is by far more efficient when it comes to killing innocents.

Show me statistics that prove that a significant percentage of deaths was caused by civilians being kept from leaving. Go on.

And I really have to ask: Israel is allegedly bombing civilian city blocks to kill Hezbollah fighters. But what's the point of warning people if that's the case?

Israel: "Oh, that appartment building? We bombed it because there were Hezbollah fighters there"
World: "But weren't there civilan casualties?"
Israel: "Nah, we warned all the civilians off before we bombed the building".

Right.

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Hezbollah is fighting [almost a tenth as dirty as Israel], yet all of the blame lands on Israel... It makes no sense.
I don't observe all the blame landing on Israel. That's an excaggeration.

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Even the argument that "it was their land first" doesn't hold water. Let's see...the areas that Muslims control in the Middle East include Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and others. Yet these Muslims are given leeway for heinous acts because they're pissed off that they had to give up what, in comparison, is a tiny little sliver of land on the Mediterranean coast.
That's an exceedingly racist thing to say, and a pathetic attempt to skew what's really going on.

It's not about Muslims, it's about the Palestinians. They, as a nationality, deserve a homeland. If Egypt, Palestine, and so on were a single nationality, fine, then they'd control lots of land.

However, what you're doing is akin to driving all Italians out of Italy and taking their land, excusing it by saying that "the whites/Christians control all of Europe, stop whining!".

It's a very fallacious and offensive argument. Please drop it.

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The thing that gets me the most is the "proportionate response" argument. Should Israel have kidnapped two Hezbollah terrorists and left it at that? Should the US military, in the interests of proportionality, be torturing, beheading, dismembering, and booby-trapping 'insurgents' in Iraq?
"Proportionate response" doesn't mean "doing the same thing to them". It means "making the punishment suit the crime".

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...and to touch on my point regarding Israeli society being more liberal than any Muslim country, the picture below has been circulating the Arab press for some time now.

This picture is politicaly correct in the Muslim world believe it or not, though it's nothing compared to what Muslims are doing to black women in Sudan.
And that's got anything to do with this discussion because?

The more I debate this topic in this thread, the more I become convinced that what Israel's doing is wrong. Every single point brought up so far by Good Sir Knight (RIP), rccar, and whatever other pro-Israelis present has been refuted.

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Republican Chuck Hagel said, "The sickening slaughter on both sides must end and it must end now. President Bush must call for an immediate cease-fire. This madness must stop."
Good man. Have him move to Norway so I can vote for him.

Although, of course, a seize-fire is only the first step towards peace. Israel needs to give back what it's acquired stolen for peace to be negotiated effectively.

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Also, lebanon had been hitting israel with rockets, so israel gave them the same treatment.
1. Israel's rockets are far more deadly. Hezbollah's rocket attacks, on the other hand, have a fatality rate of 0,0001 as most rockets don't hit anything but non-living, non-caring mountainsides, as stated already in this thread.
2. Israel began firing rockets first.

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Old 08-01-2006, 04:27 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
"Proportionate response" doesn't mean "doing the same thing to them". It means "making the punishment suit the crime".
I'm sure a "proportionate response" would also involve punishing those responsible for the crime, rather than indiscriminately slaughtering people located around the scene of the crime.


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Old 08-01-2006, 08:39 PM   #163
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I've been looking at rccar's (?) blog, and it elaborates on what he's talking about regarding Israel and Lebanon. I found it largelly fallacious, but it did also make me think - a little. Let me comment:

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As Rush Limbaugh observed during his program a few days ago, the ratio of US to Japanese military battle deaths in the Pacific Theatre of World War II was something in the neighborhood of 22:1 (Rush's figures were much more precise; I don't have the actual numbers here in front of me). That figure, however, does not even include civilian casualties. It doesn't include the dropping of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
This might be true, although of course Lindbaugh never was much of a trust-worthy source due to his bias.

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Would the Left classify a 22:1 ratio in battle deaths as a "disproportionate response?" Should we have gone easier on the Japanese? After all, they only killed about 2,400 soldiers and 70 civilians in the attack on Pearl Harbor. Should we have stopped after reciprocating with 2,400 combat and 70 civilian deaths on the Japanese side? Would that have made everything okay (would the Japanese have stopped after an even proportion was reached)? To even ask questions such as these is ludicrous, yet this is how the Left seems to think wars should be fought.
You missed the point by a mile. The point is that Israel originally claimed to do what it was doing to get their two soldiers back. On the other hand, the USA called its war on Japan just that from Day 1 - a war. They didn't say "OK, now we're going to punish them for Pearl Harbour and then stand down".

Israel, however, lied about their actions by saying that they were "trying to bring their soldiers back". If Israel did what they did to bring back their troops, they'd have been massively disproportionate. As a nation at war, though, they're "just" breaking 99% of all rules there are wordlwide about warfare - not that the neo-cons care.

Second off, Pearl Harbour was a massive attack. So was 9/11. Thousands were killed in each instance. That is not remotely the same thing as kidnapping two soldiers, no matter how many instances designate it as an Act of War.

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After 9/11, we didn't hear these same people calling for restraint and for a "proportionate response." We didn't hear condemnation of the "collective punishment" of the Taliban and the Afghani people.
Funny that. Could it be because the Afghani people was not collectively punished? Could it be because NATO went after the Talibans and Al-Q'aida where the Israelis, in turn, goes after Lebanese civilians, UN outposts, and Red Crescent ambulances?

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Yet to the Left, who consider the very existence of the nation of Israel to be tantamount to a terrorist act, any response offered by Israel is inappropriate.

&

Because according to the Left, Israel is the terrorist organizaion
First of all, I don't know any "Leftist" who considers Israel's creation a terrorist act. Second of all, I don't recall anyone on the Left side saying that "any response is inappropriate".

Please stop putting words in our mouths.

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Personally, I happen to believe that this current crisis, more than anything else, shows why the Left cannot be trusted to run America: they lack perspective. The United States is fighting a War on Terror...or, more appropriately, a War on Islamic Radicalism. I've heard it time and time again from Leftists: "You can't fight Islamic radicalism...Islamic radicalism is an idea, and you can't fight an idea." This argument is ludicrous. We are fighting Islamic radicalism by *gasp* killing Islamic radicals!!! The Left, however, cannot seem to bring themselves to believe that all Islamic radicals are our enemies (despite the fact that they consider the United States to be "The Great Satan"). The truth is that the current Israel/Lebanon conflict is another front in the War on Terror[TM].
Is it now. How convenient.

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Despite all of the attacks and moral equivocation from the Left in this conflict, Israel has been doing exactly the right thing.
Show me one shred of evidence that this is "exactly the right thing" to do. I'm not going to bore you with such "trivialties" as the Geneva Conventions - I should have learned a long time ago that they mean absolutely nothing to you neo-conservatives (read: Guantanamo) unless you actually benefit from enforcing them (read: Anti-Saddam propaganda by the US about how evil Hussein broke the Geneva Conventions, oh noez!). Instead, I'm going to challenge you to show me an instance in history where collective punishment has weakened the populace's will to fight you. One instance where it's actually been an effective strategy.

I, on the other hand, have many, many, many examples of how it has not worked. For instance, there was this incident in Norway where a pair(?) of Gestapo officers stormed a small beach-side house in a minor Norwegian village near my hometown. The house was occupied by a pair of armed partisans, who unfortunately for the Gestapo were prepared for the visit. A gun-fight broke out, killing the Gestapo men. The partisans vanished into the night.

The German occupiers answered as you'd expect them to: By driving out the villagers (about half a hundred) and burning every last of the wooden houses in the village to the ground as collective punishment. But now here's the pinch: It did not work. Norwegian fighting spirit was not reduced - the resistance fought on with increased resolve. With every execution of a dissenter, every collective punishment - in short, with every atrocity - the conviction of the occupied that they lived under an intolerable regime was strenghtened.

In fact, would collective punishment work with you? If the US was occupied by a force you considered evil, and all of a sudden your neighbourhood was torched due to the actions of partisans you had nothing to do with - would your hatred increase or decrease?

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Kofi Annan says that he wants a cease-fire. Well, Israel will give it to him: sooner or later, Hezbollah will run out of rockets and terrorists to fire those rockets. And when Hezbollah has been brought to its knees and shot in the head, Israel will cease firing, because they will have run out of terrorists to fire at.
To which I answer: Did this "keep-killing-terrorists/partisans/separatists/resistance fighers/guerillas-until-there-are-none-left-deal work for [insert regime that made use of collective punishment]?"


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Old 08-01-2006, 08:46 PM   #164
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It's strange how rccar lumps all the critics of Israel into the catagory of "leftists."

Pat Buchanon, last time I checked, was by no means a leftist. And since when did I become a leftist. I'm more conservative than rccar when it comes to government that's for damn sure.

Also, Rush is the one who's cheering on the deaths of Lebanese civilians claiming that their deaths are needed in order to stop them from propping up Hezbollah. Sounds a lot like collective punishment... and also... wait, doesn't that sound exactly like what Osama bin Laden says? That the American people must suffer for the actions of their elected government?

Rush Limbaugh... someone who uses the same logic as Osama bin Laden. What a great influence, rccar.
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Old 08-02-2006, 02:20 AM   #165
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Another fun fact: Of 8,5 million Palestinians, 5 millions are refugees or "displaced persons".

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Also, Rush is the one who's cheering on the deaths of Lebanese civilians claiming that their deaths are needed in order to stop them from propping up Hezbollah.
I've heard worse, but that's still barbaric.

Almost as bad as the thread I refered to where these people idiots discouraged the sending of emergency aid to Lebanon until the Lebanese had rejected Hezbollah. And yes, I, too have heard human beings creatures claim that "since they elected Hezbollah, they're not innocents!". I suppose I'm justified in getting on the sub-way train in NYC tomorrow with Mr. Suitcase Bomb, then? After all, the "innocents" I kill voted Bush into office, and thus support the Guantanamo torture, Operation Iraqi Freedom F***-up, and lots of other questionable actions.

Sometimes I seriously wonder where morality has gone? We're supposed to be a civilized group of nations, and there are serious debates on whether or not torture and deliberate killing of civilians is right?

Maybe I should start a poll in the Swamps on what's next. Slavery seems like a good candidate. After all, it's no more wrong than torture and civilian massacres. I'm sure Bush'll find a way to justify it. You may find it crazy, I answer that I'm actually not 100% joking. Why? Because five years ago, I'd say the same about torture. No way could there be a serious debate in the US or elsewhere on whether or not torture is really right.


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Old 08-02-2006, 08:02 PM   #166
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The parallels keep coming up between the neo-con christian right in america and the muslim extremists in the middle east, don't they.

Both support the killing of civilians in order to try and teach their governments a lesson. (in the mistaken idea that killing civilians will convince the population they were wrong and cause them to change their views... when infact it strengthens them, like it did after 9/11.)

Both lump all their "enemies" together under one big umbrella (muslims/west) that is trying to achieve some great hidden agenda. When in actual fact both sides are full of different viewpoints and factions... and the views of the population of lebannon are about as similar to those of palestine as the views of the UK to the US)

Both want governments run on religious laws, with no tolerance of homosexuality, sex before marriage, etc..

Both seem to use tv propoganda stations to spread their message (Fox news/Al jazeera)

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After 9/11, we didn't hear these same people calling for restraint and for a "proportionate response." We didn't hear condemnation of the "collective punishment" of the Taliban and the Afghani people.
Erm.. well it was there... its just it got drowned out in the deafening rush to punish someone, ANYONE. And throw away all your hard fought for rights at the same time. Its funny how memory plays tricks on you.
Still, glad it worked out for you. Some of us were worried you might end up fighting guerilla wars in 2 or 3 countries, with mounting casualities, unforendly populations, spreading instability, continuing terrorist attacks, those responsible still free and increased support for islamic militants. Good thing we were wrong about that then...



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Old 08-03-2006, 04:02 AM   #167
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The parallels keep coming up between the neo-con christian right in america and the muslim extremists in the middle east, don't they.
Sad, but true. At least they've still got free elections in the States.

There's also this to worry about.

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Still, glad it worked out for you. Some of us were worried you might end up fighting guerilla wars in 2 or 3 countries, with mounting casualities, unforendly populations, spreading instability, continuing terrorist attacks, those responsible still free and increased support for islamic militants.
Sigh.

Anyway, back on topic. When you're done reading Riverbend, listening to the music she linked to, and eating the food she gives you recipes for, you can read this Lebanese Armed Forces blog.

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Originally Posted by the aforementioned blog
We have seen Israel for example hitting a tissue factory in a small village in the south. The reason for that would be Hezbollah move around with a missile in a truck, park near a factory and fire a rocket then flee. The origin of the rocket being the factory, Israelis respond by hitting it.

A witness to a similar action went on TV and urged Hezbollah fighters to stop coming into his village to shoot rockets and then run away since the village is being destroyed.
Gawd, sounds like a video game exploit.


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Old 08-03-2006, 08:56 AM   #168
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Hezbollah fighters aren't idiots... they know very well the response time of the israeli army. They know that if they fire a missle fromt he back of a truck then the spot will get hit x minnutes later. So they leave.

So basically the Israeli army is like a newbie FPS player... not leading their targets and leaving a trail of destruction as they keep firing at WHERE THEIR ENEMY USED TO BE.

Which would explain why, after all this firepower and destruction, they have killed relatively few hezbollah fighters. The only danger of the current tactics stpping Hezbollah firing rockets is when they run out of rockets to fire.

Of course, you could say "well, in that case the deaths are hezbollah's fault for firing and moving in civilian areas".. which is partially true. But if the israeli military KNOWS that hezbollah are almost certain not to be there anymore then they are just as guilty.

Its like that UN outpost. Hezbollah fires a rocket from there early in the morning.. then leaves. Israel spends the rest of the day shelling the outpost and the destroying it.. what on earth does that achieve from an israeli point of view???



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Old 08-03-2006, 11:06 AM   #169
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So basically the Israeli army is like a newbie FPS player... not leading their targets and leaving a trail of destruction as they keep firing at WHERE THEIR ENEMY USED TO BE.
Quite like a clumsy Commander in Battlefield 2, when you say it that way. Ordering an artillery firing mission as you take an outpost, and then killing you as you move in to secure it and the firing mission arrives.

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Of course, you could say "well, in that case the deaths are hezbollah's fault for firing and moving in civilian areas".. which is partially true. But if the israeli military KNOWS that hezbollah are almost certain not to be there anymore then they are just as guilty.
Quite so.

It's like a demolition-on-demand thing. You want something destroyed? No worries! Your good buddy the enemy will take care of it for you!

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Old 08-03-2006, 03:37 PM   #170
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Up to 900 lebanese dead now, including up to 300 children. 70 israelis dead too, not sure if that included soldiers.

Also, hezbollah launched a big rocket offensive today, killing the most they'd killed in a day for several weeks. So one has to wonder if the israeli army is having any effect. They are now pushing further north, looks like they'll be there some time.

One has to wonder at the US's motivation in all this. Either the tail is wagging the dog and israel is now dictating US foriegn policy.. or the US sees it in their interests to try and remove hezbollah, no matter the cost. THat implies that they plan on moving against iran sometime soon.

Considering the taliban is getting stronger in afganistan and the leading US general and the leaving UK ambasador in iraq have just said that "civil war and a split country are more likely than a functioning democracy" it seems very ambitious to go after iran as well. Juggling too many tigers..



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Old 08-03-2006, 09:08 PM   #171
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Yet another blog from me (but not by me).

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Old 08-04-2006, 08:24 PM   #172
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Thanks to CNCNZ's General Leang for the link.

http://www.johnlaws.com.au/3Xchange.html

Scroll down to 'Five Days in Five Minutes' and start upwards from July 21st for a summery on the situation.
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Old 08-04-2006, 08:48 PM   #173
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It seems like support for Hezbollah is now rising rapidly, they apparently have more support than they have had since 2000. Heck, even the christian Bishop of beirut has come out in their defence..
From what i understand their support was dwindling in lebannon, and theyonly really had any support left in the south. Which was good as it meant that the lebanese government and army was getting stronger. Now they are basically viewed as the heros by most of the middle east.

..plus in Bagdad they've just ahd 10s of thousands of shia muslims marching in support of hezbollah.

...plus the Israeli general who ran the previous israels occupation (1982 to 2000) has said that te current action will only increase support for hezbollah.

PS/ After watching the daily show show clips of all the US news networks going on about armageddon approaching (and not just the nut job christian channels and Faux news, the serious ones too) i'm starting to worry that maybe GW is on a mission to prepare the way..



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Old 08-04-2006, 09:10 PM   #174
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toms, you don't really buy into that crap do you? I don't know about other religions, but Christians believe that God will bring about the apocalypse, Jesus returning I think it is. Sure, at times the world does seem like it'll fall apart, but the world really isn't that much diffirent, in terms of conflict, than it was ten years ago. There was war in Somalia, war in Kosovo, East Timor, I think maybe the IRA were still terrorising in Europe, ditto for Israel and Palestine, and about this time President Clinton orchastrated air strikes on Iraq. And there were other conflicts such as in Russia where they were fighting the Chechnyan rebels. But I don't think the world was anywhere as edgy back then as it is today. It's comparable to the Cold War, in my opinion, in that we are anxiously wondering if the whole thing is going to blow up the same way twenty years ago, thirty years ago, we were concerned that Kremlin Joe would let fly with the nukes.
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Old 08-05-2006, 04:04 PM   #175
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toms, you don't really buy into that crap do you?
I think he was joking. I know toms as a rather bright and very level-headed person.

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It seems like support for Hezbollah is now rising rapidly, they apparently have more support than they have had since 2000. Heck, even the christian Bishop of beirut has come out in their defence..
What's the e-mail of the Israeli C-in-C? I want to send him an "I told ya so!".

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Old 08-10-2006, 04:39 PM   #176
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I 100% support Israel. If Lebanon was intellegant enough, they would join up with Israel to deal with their universal terrorist problem.

The only problem is that Lebonon supports Hezbollah.

I am a Christian, damn prowd of it, but I don't believe this is the end of the word.



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Old 08-10-2006, 05:03 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
I 100% support Israel.
You're saying, then, that you support the slaughter of little kids. How nice.

Why do you support Israel blindly, like so many other Americans? Why have Americans always loved Israel? This is something I've asked before, and I haven't gotten an answer yet. I'm thinking of making a new thread dedicated to just that question.

Is it because you believe there must be a state of Israel in order for there to be a second coming?

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Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
The only problem is that Lebonon supports Hezbollah.
They do now. Before the Israeli destruction of Lebanon, only the down-and-out Shi'a Muslims supported Hezbollah. But destroying a country typically has the effect of uniting its citizens against the aggressor.
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Old 08-10-2006, 06:34 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
They do now. Before the Israeli destruction of Lebanon, only the down-and-out Shi'a Muslims supported Hezbollah. But destroying a country typically has the effect of uniting its citizens against the aggressor.
Then how did Hezbollah get people on Lebanon's parliament? Hezbollah has a long history of aggression toward Israel, after which they play the press for propaganda points. The reason they've gained so much popularity isn't because Israel fires back, it's because the press is oh-so-willing to spread their lies throughout the region and the world.

We're only now seeing the truth: the now-infamous Reuters photo, the AP buying into lies, terrorists directing the press to stage photographs, and the press claiming that the same building was destroyed three different times by the Israelis.

The Israeli military has gone to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties. Time and time again they have given up their strategic advantage to warn civilians to leave the area before they drop bombs. They have only used precision guided bombs in a further effort to avoid civilian losses. When civilian casualties are incurred, however, instead of blaming Hezbollah for committing the despicable acts that put those civilians into harm's way, Israel is blamed for trying to rid the world of a terrorist organization.

The only reasonable conclusion that can be drawn is that civilians are dying because Hezbollah wants them to die so they can turn the bodies into propaganda. No person in their right mind would stick around after being warned that planes will be coming with bombs...unless they thought the chances of surviving an Israeli bombing raid were better than the chance of dodging a Hezbollah bullet.


So many around here whine and complain about Fox News being a shill for the Bush administration...now there is hard evidence of Reuters and the AP, two of the main wire services used for disseminating news to the world, among other so-called "respected" news organizations, shilling out terrorist propaganda!

It begs the question: just how many of these "civilians" were, before their deaths, Hezbollah terrorists? They don't wear uniforms, and the media has been so willing to print whatever they're told, it isn't much of a leap to believe that the numbers are being inflated.


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Old 08-10-2006, 07:57 PM   #179
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Israel-Palestine 101. Enjoy.

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Old 08-10-2006, 08:52 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
You're saying, then, that you support the slaughter of little kids. How nice.

Why do you support Israel blindly, like so many other Americans? Why have Americans always loved Israel? This is something I've asked before, and I haven't gotten an answer yet. I'm thinking of making a new thread dedicated to just that question.

Is it because you believe there must be a state of Israel in order for there to be a second coming?
Since the site went down, I was not able to answer your questions. Isreal emerged from the reminants of World War II. If you know your history, the Jewish people were almost eraticated by a vicious, satonistic-dictator (Hitler). If it wasn't for the allied nations, the existance of an entire social groups would be gone. Everyone in the world would be under Germany law, and every religious and ethic groups would be on the brink of extinction. What does this have to do with Isreal, they represent what the world almost lost. Besides them being segnificant to my Christian background, Isreal represents you, me, and the other guy.

If we allow one group of people to disapear, we will be just as disfunctional as Hitler.

The main problem they are facing is that they are a democracy surrounded by Terroristic (or- Communistic) states. Almost every state over in the middle-east is trying to wipe them off the map. So, why am I behind Isreal? I think it should be, why are you not behind Isreal?



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Old 08-10-2006, 09:01 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by rccar328
Then how did Hezbollah get people on Lebanon's parliament?
How did Cynthia McKinney get into Congress? How did Howard Dean get to be chairman of the DNC?

Wackos get elected and it's just something that is part of a democracy.

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Originally Posted by rccar328
We're only now seeing the truth: the now-infamous Reuters photo, the AP buying into lies, terrorists directing the press to stage photographs, and the press claiming that the same building was destroyed three different times by the Israelis.
There's no question that there will be press manipulation in a situation like this. There was a clip on Anderson Cooper's show where he explains how Hezbollah stages ambulances racing through streets sirens and all, even though there's no new casualties, and making sure that it's filmed. No question Hezbollah is using the press to their advantage.

But if you honestly think that there is some kind of massive conspiracy by all of the press (with the exception of Faux of course) to spread propaganda for Hezbollah, then you must be paranoid. The footage of mass burials in Tyre is real. The footage of flattened apartment buildings with people still buried in the ruins is real. The footage of a charred Red Cross ambulance is real. The footage of a bombed Lebanese hospital is real.

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Originally Posted by rccar328
Time and time again they have given up their strategic advantage to warn civilians to leave the area before they drop bombs.
I've addressed this before: there's no point in telling the civilians to leave when they have no vehicle, can't afford a taxi, and the roads, highways, bridges, and the airport have all been bombed. The aid agencies trying to enter Lebanon are complaining that they can't get in because the bridges have been destroyed. Thanks Israel. Not only do they kill civilians without hesitating, but they then deny the survivors the aid that the international community is trying to give them. What a great civilized democracy in the Middle East!

And when they tell the civilians to leave, they've also told Hezbollah to leave. So it defeats the whole purpose of bombing the place anyway.

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Originally Posted by rccar328
They have only used precision guided bombs in a further effort to avoid civilian losses.
Like the precision guided bombs that hit a UN outpost? Must not be very precise. Unless they were guided to that UN peacekeeping force...

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Originally Posted by rccar328
Israel is blamed for trying to rid the world of a terrorist organization.
Whether or not they're really just trying to destroy Hezbollah is debatable; Pat Buchanon, a REAL conservative, is saying that Israel has engaged in a campaign of collective punishment of the Lebanese people.

Even Tucker Carlson, a totally pro-Israeli conservative, says that Israel has utterly failed to destroy Hezbollah and have only made it much more stronger. They have, however, managed to kill hundreds of civilians and destroyed much of Lebanon, and planted the seed of hatred that will continue to plague Israel for years to come.

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Originally Posted by rccar328
The only reasonable conclusion that can be drawn is that civilians are dying because Hezbollah wants them to die so they can turn the bodies into propaganda.
No. That is not reasonable at all. Civilians are dying because ISRAEL IS BOMBING THEM.

You are using the argument of "oh the girl was drunk and wearing a short skirt, of course she got raped."

Sickening.
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Old 08-10-2006, 09:02 PM   #182
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No person in their right mind would stick around after being warned that planes will be coming with bombs...unless they thought the chances of surviving an Israeli bombing raid were better than the chance of dodging a Hezbollah bullet.
Or maybe because they CAN'T leave. Recently, Israel has said that ALL travel with a vehicle of any kind (yup, that includes camels) will get you bombed no matter what. They have essentially put a travel ban on all of Lebanon. How they get the authority to do that I have no clue.

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Originally Posted by rccar328
So many around here whine and complain about Fox News being a shill for the Bush administration...now there is hard evidence of Reuters and the AP, two of the main wire services used for disseminating news to the world, among other so-called "respected" news organizations, shilling out terrorist propaganda!
Blaming the media... classic.

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Originally Posted by rccar328
It begs the question: just how many of these "civilians" were, before their deaths, Hezbollah terrorists? They don't wear uniforms, and the media has been so willing to print whatever they're told, it isn't much of a leap to believe that the numbers are being inflated.
Apparently they're not killing many terrorists or are even managing to disrupt them in the least. Hezbollah continues firing record numbers of rockets into Israel and farther than ever before. Israel has utterly failed to stop these rockets from hitting Israel; and it's not because of this "they are restraining themselves so they don't hit civilians" BS. They're killing the civilians... they're just not killing the terrorists.

Maybe if Hezbollah was clearly on the run I wouldn't be quite so disturbed by Israel's slaughter... but Hezbollah has only become stronger than EVER BEFORE. Israel however continues to give them the material they need to recruit and gain support from Sunni Muslims, and even Christians.

And I still haven't gotten my answer yet: why have Americans always blindly supported Israel? Is it because Israel must exist in order for there to be a second coming?
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Old 08-10-2006, 09:24 PM   #183
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If you know your history, the Jewish people were almost eraticated by a vicious, satonistic-dictator (Hitler). If it wasn't for the allied nations, the existance of an entire social groups would be gone. Everyone in the world would be under Germany law, and every religious and ethic groups would be on the brink of extinction. What does this have to do with Isreal, they represent what the world almost lost.
First of all, Hitler wasn't a Satanist. Secondly, while millions of Jews were murdered in the Holocaust, they were no where near the brink of extinction.

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Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
Besides them being segnificant to my Christian background
So because of Judeo-Christian ties, you excuse their atrocities? Why?

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Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
Isreal represents you, me, and the other guy.
Israel certainly does not represent me.

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Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
If we allow one group of people to disapear, we will be just as disfunctional as Hitler.
The Jews were not going to disappear.

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Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
The main problem they are facing is that they are a democracy surrounded by Terroristic (or- Communistic) states. Almost every state over in the middle-east is trying to wipe them off the map.
At one time, yes, most all of Israel's neighbors were trying to wipe them off the map. But that's not how it is anymore; really there's only Iran and Syria to a lesser degree that are hostile to Israel. And I have no clue what you mean by Communistic states... there are no Communists in the Middle East.

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So, why am I behind Isreal? I think it should be, why are you not behind Isreal?
Well, because the very creation of Israel was a dumb idea, and the Israelis have continued to commit atrocities against the Palestinians, who are forced to live packed into impoverished ghettos. Israel's actions fuel the hatred around the world towards the U.S. and the Western world. What good has our support of Israel gotten us? Nothing; all it's gotten us is numerous terrorist attacks, including 9/11.
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Old 08-10-2006, 09:27 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by rccar328
Then how did Hezbollah get people on Lebanon's parliament?
Because people in the south, which is where the Shia muslims mostly live voted for them?? What aren't you understanding?

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Hezbollah has a long history of aggression toward Israel, after which they play the press for propaganda points. The reason they've gained so much popularity isn't because Israel fires back, it's because the press is oh-so-willing to spread their lies throughout the region and the world.
Of course Hezbollah has a long history of agression towards israel, they were set up to fight israel. And, erm, don't all sides play the press for propoganda points? I see no evidence Hezbollah does it any more, or any more effectivel than any other side or government for that matter.
heck, go back to the 2nd world war and both sides were going for propoganda. same in any other war you care to name.

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We're only now seeing the truth: the now-infamous Reuters photo, the AP buying into lies, terrorists directing the press to stage photographs, and the press claiming that the same building was destroyed three different times by the Israelis.
I don't get what the fuss is about. Newspapers have always doctored photos to make them suit their need, to remove unsightly or distracting elements, or to empahisise certain elements. Are you saying there is some sort of international pro-hezbollah media conspiracy going on? I think you've been reading too many conspiracy theory blogs my good friend..

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The Israeli military has gone to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties. Time and time again they have given up their strategic advantage to warn civilians to leave the area before they drop bombs. They have only used precision guided bombs in a further effort to avoid civilian losses. When civilian casualties are incurred, however, instead of blaming Hezbollah for committing the despicable acts that put those civilians into harm's way, Israel is blamed for trying to rid the world of a terrorist organization.
*cough*rubbish*cough*
Israel hasn't given up any "strategic advantage" they aren't conducting surprise attacks in a coordinated fashion.. they are using long range artillery to fire at suspected positions. If, as you say, they have warned the locals, and hezbollah, then why the heck would they need to launch the attack two days later.. cos hezbollah aren't around 5 minutes after an attack.. let alone a day or so.

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The only reasonable conclusion that can be drawn is that civilians are dying because Hezbollah wants them to die so they can turn the bodies into propaganda. No person in their right mind would stick around after being warned that planes will be coming with bombs...unless they thought the chances of surviving an Israeli bombing raid were better than the chance of dodging a Hezbollah bullet.
Completely unfounded and illogical speculation on your part. If hezbollah were forcing hundreds of people to stay and die don't you think that word of this would spread to the rest of the region and their support would crumble instantly?

People stick around because these are their homes. If this sort of thing was happening in the USA I guarantee there would be aheck of a lot of people under their tables with shotguns saying "they'll pry my home from my cold dead hand". Old people in particular may be unable to leave... or are often very unwilling to leave the homes they have lived in for years.

Also, despite your strange claim about israel giving up "straegic advantage" they have basically just dropped letters on the whole region, 100s of square miles. A lot of people will have the "it won't happen here" attitude.. and then if and when it DOES start to happen there.. its too late to get out safely under fire and with no bridges.. so they figure its safer to stay put. Or gather together in hospitals and other places where they hope they'll be safe.

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It begs the question: just how many of these "civilians" were, before their deaths, Hezbollah terrorists? They don't wear uniforms, and the media has been so willing to print whatever they're told, it isn't much of a leap to believe that the numbers are being inflated.
Well, numbers in conflicts are always estimates.. with both sides offering different estimates and the independent observers falling somewhere in between. But however you look at it a heck of a lot of people have died. I've lost track, but it must be well over 500 by the most conservative estimates, and over 1000 my the less conservative ones. All have been pretty consistent in saying that 1/3rd of all casualties are children... but i guess you are right, those 5 year olds might actually be Hezbollah terrorists dispicably posing as civilians. damn them!

Unless we assume that israel has miraculously killed no-one but Hezbollah and children, it seems daft to think that more than half of the adults can be Hezbollah fighters. So that is about: 200 Kids, 200 Civilians, 200 Fighters -> 350 Kids, 350 Civilians, 350 Fighters.

Personally i'd be amazed if they had got even a thrid of that many fighters, but thats just based on my common sense, not any expert knowledge.



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Old 08-10-2006, 10:05 PM   #185
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The main problem they are facing is that they are a democracy surrounded by Terroristic (or- Communistic) states.
That's a very simplified and distorted view.

Really, both you and rccar, watch that movie I linked to. It's very basic in some parts ("OK, here's Europe, here's Asia, here's Africa, and here's the Middle East" ), but you can learn a lot from it. Like that about 40% of Israelis think the occupation of Palestine is wrong and that a two-state solution should be pursued.

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Almost every state over in the middle-east is trying to wipe them off the map.
Sad, that.

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So, why am I behind Isreal? I think it should be, why are you not behind Isreal?
Because they're human rights-violators who illegally occupy at least two sovereign countries (Palestine and Lebanon).

This is not a "with us or against us"-scenario to me. I'm not condoning Israel's terrorist acts, but I'm not anti-Semittic either. Only the Sith deal in absolutes.

To strike an analogy, do I like and support what the Hitler regime did? Nope. Do I support that British bombers blasted the Heck out of Dresden, killing untold numbers of civilians and levelling pretty much the entire city - for no strategically plausible reason? Nope. Does that make me a Nazi? Not at all.

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Israel is blamed for trying to rid the world of a terrorist organization.
For the thousandth time: No, they're being blamed for violating just about every single law on warfare in doing so.

And how do you define "terrorist organization"? A group that kills civilians? That's what Israel's doing, too. A group that destroys illegal targets such as hospitals? Then Israel's definetly a terrorist organization.

And this fallacious "blame-the-victims"-rhetoric seriously needs to stop. Let's say a hospital with hundreds of innocents got hit by a rocket strike because there were allegedly Hezbollah there. Who pulled the trigger on the rockets? The Israelis. Who's at fault? The Israelis. It's really that simple.

And your statement that "we don't know if the civilians are Hezbollah"? You just shot yourself in the foot big time: That's the point exactly, we don't know if they're terrorists or not. And guess what, you don't go ahead and bomb a hospital unless you can produce evidence there were Hezbollah fighters there. If you aren't sure, as you just admitted, then maybe it's an idea to hold your fire.

Would you support this as much if you were the one in the reticule of Israeli rockets. Would it be OK for you to die because someone suspected a terrorist was hiding in your house? I'd really like to hear your answer to that - and it'd better be something more than the "oh, they ain't civilians, 'cause they voted for Hezbollah"-nonsense I heard on another forum. That's like saying terrorism against neo-con civilians is OK because they voted for and support Bush and thus "aren't civilians".

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Those 5 year olds might actually be Hezbollah terrorists dispicably posing as civilians. damn them!
FOX News has proven that it's a common tactic among 40-year old Hezbollah fighters to disguise themselves as three-year olds.

Hezbollah fighter stationed at day-care centre in Lebanon

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Since the site went down, I was not able to answer your questions.
Extremely annoying, that. I wonder what causes these persistant breakdowns. Too much traffic, perhaps?


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Old 08-10-2006, 10:10 PM   #186
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Since the site went down, I was not able to answer your questions. Isreal emerged from the reminants of World War II. If you know your history, the Jewish people were almost eraticated by a vicious, satonistic-dictator (Hitler).
So what? So next time someone's family is almost killed in a violent crime I should give them your house to live in to make it up to them?

There were millions of OTHER jews living in the UK, in America, in other countries. WHy did they need to get given a bit of land just because we felt guilty for letting bad things happen to them?

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Besides them being segnificant to my Christian background, Isreal represents you, me, and the other guy.
They are no more significant to your christian background than muslims. All have the same god, the same early teachings, the same early prophets, the same religious places... christianity is simply an ad-on pack to judaism, and islam is an ad-on pack to christianity.

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If we allow one group of people to disapear, we will be just as disfunctional as Hitler.
A nation is not a "people". Israel could cease to exist tomorrow and there would still be millions of jews, happily integrated into societies around the world and practicing their religions.

SUrely what we want is for religious and ethnic groups to be integrated into societies and live together? Setting up a whole country for a single religion tends to lead to religious government.. which i thought we all felt was a BAD THING.

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The main problem they are facing is that they are a democracy surrounded by Terroristic (or- Communistic) states. Almost every state over in the middle-east is trying to wipe them off the map. So, why am I behind Isreal? I think it should be, why are you not behind Isreal?
*ignores wierd communist idea*

Lebannon is a democracy. U knew that right?

Israel is nominally a democracy... but they are still a state based on a state religion, and a large part of their politics revolves around moderate to hard line religious parties... in that way they are actually not that different to the states that suround them.

Still, the US seems quite happy to count non-democracies in the region as it's allies (Saudi Arabia, Pakistan).. so democracy can hardly be the most important factor.

Its true that most of the surrounding islamic states did leap to attack israel once it stole the palestinians land.. a "coalition of the willing" if you will. But then since the USA was quite happy to have ITS allies jump to ITS aid after 9/11 then I guess the US population has no problem with solidarity against adversity.

-

I don't believe that the majority of US citizens contine to blindly support israel because of some need for a 2nd coming. They support israel because their media tells them to. And their media tells them to because they support israel, and the US media doesn't like to risk losing viewers by upseting them and challenging their beliefs.

its a self perpetuating circle, started by US guilt over what happened to the jews in the 2nd world war, and then perpetuated to the stage where it will probably never be overcome.

Though, to be fair, much of europe has it's own colonial guilt about the region.. which is probably why palestine has such a high level of support in europe.
On balance though I'd say europe is pretty evely split in it's support.. while the US, from what i can see from here, seems to be almost 100% pro israel to the exclusion of all else.



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Old 08-11-2006, 01:44 AM   #187
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You're saying, then, that you support the slaughter of little kids. How nice.
No one who willingly commits such atrocities should be supported. No one. When it comes to dealing with terrorists, there is unquestionably a psychological route in preventing terrorism and criminal behaviour and to talk down and prevent a terrorist act once one has been carried out or underway, but that is really not the main concern at this present point in time. The problem is that the acts of all sides involved put innocent people at risk. Without getting into a debate about it, the lives of Hezbollah terrorists and the lives of Lenonese and Israeli soldiers would certainly matter to their families, to their friends, their country, but they count for nothing compared to the lives of the innocent people all three sides threaten.

Also...

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Originally Posted by TK-8252
Why do you support Israel blindly, like so many other Americans? Why have Americans always loved Israel?
Psst, not all of us are American. I doubt very much that Americans are following the Dead Sea Scrolls in order to bring about the apocalypse. What I think it is is that Israel, or Jews, had suffered greatly and are given special treatment because of it. SkinWalker would probably have all the grisly details of what the Nazis subjected the Jews to, but I know enough to have supported them. When I say 'had supported', by that I mean their recent actions when they target civillians is inexcuseable, and if baying for Israel's blood is too much for you then at the very least the Jewish State has lost all support from me. In any case blind faith is a bad thing, it is blind faith that is one of the things that is responsible for terrorism: by this people who are with Al Qaeda for example do not preach pure Islam as such, they preach Islam mixed with Jihad, intolerance and theocracy.
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Old 08-11-2006, 03:21 PM   #188
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Regardless about where you stand on the subject, there is one definining factor of what is going on: War is Ugly.

When it comes to innocent people dying, in any type of war, I find it tragic and unsettling. I think it is reckless to target any civilian that is just out buying food.

Hezbollah are a bunch of terrorists who have taken over a country. If someone threatened my family, regardless about their background, I will deal with them swiftly.

I believe this subject is a sensitive one, which requires a reflection on history. I also forgot that not everyone here is American. Regardless about where I live, I thank god that I have an education, freedom, and a I live in a Democratic society that is built on a Republic.

From how I have been raised, you can call it Communism or Terrorism, they are both the same. They will try to drive fear, or they will try to steal someone elses freedom. Their core belief is that no-one desverve feedom, except for their own, and everyone else should pay tribute to them.

------------------------------------------

When it comes to this subject, I also have to realize that some people are Fundamentalists. Otherwords, they cannot see what is beyhond their vission. They look at what is on the cover, but they do not open the book to read.

Believing that Americans are all Christian is a false assumption. We are a deverse society, which includes several ethnic and religious backgrounds. Our government is based upon 'We the People'... Yes. Sometimes we do hire the wrong guy to take an important seat in office. We have the freedom to debate, breath, and argue. We have the freedom of religion, education, and the pursuit of happyness.

If the middle-east likes slavery, lack of freedom, no debating, no education, and no elections, that is really not my problem. My problem is when they come over here and try to take my or someone elses freedom away. I will stand resolved with my fellow Americans (America, Europe, Russia, Canada, Isreal, China, Japan, etc...), and I will defend our freedom from anyone who tries to take it away.



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Old 08-11-2006, 03:33 PM   #189
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Regardless about where you stand on the subject, there is one definining factor of what is going on: War is Ugly.
This isn't a war; it's a war crime. A "war" that leaves more dead women and children than armed men is fundamentally flawed.

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Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
From how I have been raised, you can call it Communism or Terrorism, they are both the same. They will try to drive fear, or they will try to steal someone elses freedom. Their core belief is that no-one desverve feedom, except for their own, and everyone else should pay tribute to them.
Communism and terrorism are... in no way related. One is a form of violence against non-combatants, and the other is a failed form of government that exists in China, Cuba, and North Korea.

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If the middle-east likes slavery
As far as I know they don't have slaves... I could be wrong on that though!

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Originally Posted by MacLeodGR
My problem is when they come over hear and try to take my freedom away. I will stand resolved with my fellow Americans (America, Europe, Russia, Canada, Isreal, China, Japan, etc...), and I will defend our freedom from one who tries to take it away.
My goodness, not only is this off-topic, but it doesn't even make sense. No one is trying to take your freedom away. Osama bin Laden is not trying to re-write the Constitution (someone else is though ). Sure he's trying to take away your life... but he can't take away America's freedom no matter how many people he blows up. Only your own government can take away your freedom.
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Old 08-11-2006, 03:49 PM   #190
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Well, Dagobahn Eagle, I watched your little video, and even found parts of it to be intersting. It did a pretty good job of explaining the situation, but there were parts that were false (namely, their characterization of the start of the Six-Day War). However, the movie pretty much glosses over the presence of HAMAS and Hezbollah (and Iran and Syria), who don't want a two-state solution, but would rather wipe Israel out so that they can make "Palestine" an Islamic state. The fighting in the Middle East isn't between Israel and just any old Palestinian Arab, it's between Israel and the terrorists whose stated goals are Israel's annihilation (it's also interesting how they criticize the path of Israel's barrier, ignoring the fact that it's there to keep terrorists from entering Israel...and has been very effective in doing so). Furthermore, the Israeli Supreme Court ruled in 2005 that the barrier be moved in certain areas in such a way as to still provide for Israel's security, while giving Palestinians greater access to other towns and services.

They say that "violence breeds more violence." This is true, but they totally mischaracterize the nature of the violence. They had their cute little graph, and concluded from it that if Israel would only stop attacking the Palestinians, the terrorists would suddenly decide to all stay home...ignoring the fact that the vast majority of Israel's violence against Palestine has been in reaction to terrorist attacks on the part of the Palestinian terrorists. They talk about Palestinian civilians dying in Israeli attacks, but don't address the fact that those civilians died because Palestinian terrorist leaders were using them as human shields.

Their ideas are good, for the most part. I personally have no problem with a two-state solution (which, by the way, has been rejected multiple times by the Palestinians, even when it was agreed upon by the Israelis). They even came very close to a solution in 2002 with the Arab Peace Initiative...but HAMAS purpously derailed the peace process.

Basically what it gets down to is that there will be no peace, no two-state solution, no cessation of hostilities, until either Israel or the terrorists are wiped out. It's all well and good to talk about a "road-map to peace" and a two-state solution, but if the terrorists are going to keep on attacking Israeli civilians, all that amounts to is a bunch of talk.

You characterize this as "blaming the victim"...well, it was the Arabs who initially and repeatedly rejected a two-state solution, and it is Arab terrorists who keep on disrupting the peace process.

If you think Israel's caving in to Palestinian demands and accepting a two-state solution will bring peace and turn the world into one big happy place as long as Palestinian terrorists and extremists like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and the Iranian Ayatollahs live, you are incredibly naive. It doesn't really matter whether how many Israelis are in favor of a two-state solution; what matters is getting rid of the terrorists so that the peace process can have some chance of success (as it so happens, 80% of Israelis are in favor of the current campaign against Hezbollah).


Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.
~John F. Kennedy

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Old 08-11-2006, 04:01 PM   #191
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You cannot even count on two hands the number of times those nations have fought. I say, "Let them fight it out." Eventually, something will break through. Presidents and other leaders have been trying to make peace over there for decades (or-centuries). If they cannot find a resolution to their problem, I say that we just stand back and let them fight it out.



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Old 08-11-2006, 04:32 PM   #192
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If you think Israel's caving in to Palestinian demands and accepting a two-state solution will bring peace and turn the world into one big happy place as long as Palestinian terrorists and extremists like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and the Iranian Ayatollahs live, you are incredibly naive. It doesn't really matter whether how many Israelis are in favor of a two-state solution; what matters is getting rid of the terrorists so that the peace process can have some chance of success (as it so happens, 80% of Israelis are in favor of the current campaign against Hezbollah).
And what do the Palestinian terrorists fight for? Their own land.

You can't "kill all the terrorists", especially when you're doing it in the way Israel's doing it (by being terrorists). That's just not possible.

Look at, for example, the partisans in Norway fighting the Nazis during World War II. What happened on May 5th 1945? Suddenly they laid down their arms and stopped their activity. Why? Their mission was accomplished. Germany was withdrawing from Norway.

Did five years of hunting by the Germans stop them? Nope, their terrorism only created more fury and hatred (again, I'm not comparing Israel's morality to that of the occupying Nazis, only their terrorist methods).

The Two-state solution is probably not going to stop the violence, but it's sure as Hell going to reduce it severely.

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They say that "violence breeds more violence." This is true, but they totally mischaracterize the nature of the violence. They had their cute little graph, and concluded from it that if Israel would only stop attacking the Palestinians, the terrorists would suddenly decide to all stay home...ignoring the fact that the vast majority of Israel's violence against Palestine has been in reaction to terrorist attacks on the part of the Palestinian terrorists.
And the Palestinian attacks, in turn, were in response to Israeli killings of innocent Palestinians. This isn't about crying "he started it!". That **** is for snotty little day-care centre infants running around hitting each others in the head with plastic shovels. We need to figure out how to end this mess, not determine who first broke the rules.

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They talk about Palestinian civilians dying in Israeli attacks, but don't address the fact that those civilians died because Palestinian terrorist leaders were using them as human shields.
Insane Sith will want a sample of whatever you're smoking. I'll give him a hint.

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(it's also interesting how they criticize the path of Israel's barrier, ignoring the fact that it's there to keep terrorists from entering Israel...and has been very effective in doing so).
It's truly amazing how slapping the word "anti-terrorist" on an atrocity instantly justifies it in your eyes and the eyes of so many others. Did you lose your entire family, all your childhood friends, and your beloved dog in the 9/11 attacks or what is it with you?

The Israeli surpreme court justified it? Oh hurray! An objective ruling from -- No, wait, isn't it the Israeli government that's building the wall? Well, wow, it is. What an objective source, then, the Israeli surpreme court!

What about the other organizations that condemn the wall? What about, as the movie said, the 10 000 that will be without important care? The thousand pregnant women?

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You characterize this as "blaming the victim"...well, it was the Arabs who initially and repeatedly rejected a two-state solution, and it is Arab terrorists who keep on disrupting the peace process.
Exactly, terrorists. As opposed to civilians, who are the ones largelly dying from Israeli rockets, bombs, tanks, and rifles.


Last edited by Dagobahn Eagle; 08-11-2006 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 08-11-2006, 05:52 PM   #193
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The Israeli surpreme court justified it? Oh hurray! An objective ruling from -- No, wait, isn't it the Israeli government that's building the wall? Well, wow, it is. What an objective source, then, the Israeli surpreme court!

What about the other organizations that condemn the wall? What about, as the movie said, the 10 000 that will be without important care? The thousand pregnant women?
Well, first of all, you seemed to have misunderstood what I said. I said that the Israeli Supreme Court told them to move the wall so that Israel could still have security without denying care to the Palestinians.

Another point that I thought interesting: they said in your video that the Israeli barrier prevents Palestinians from from receiving care they need. Where are they getting this care? The wall, as it stands, separates the Gaza strip from Israel. Does that mean that Israel has been providing care to the Palestinians? That being the case, I don't think the Palestinians have a whole heck of a lot to complain about. But if I'm wrong, and they were getting care somewhere else, please correct me. The video was very unspecific (suspiciously so) on this point.

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Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
You can't "kill all the terrorists", especially when you're doing it in the way Israel's doing it (by being terrorists). That's just not possible.

Look at, for example, the partisans in Norway fighting the Nazis during World War II. What happened on May 5th 1945? Suddenly they laid down their arms and stopped their activity. Why? Their mission was accomplished. Germany was withdrawing from Norway.
And so, by the very standard you set up here, the terrorists will not lay down their arms until Israel ceases to exist, whether through death, diaspora, or conversion. The formation of a Palestinian state may be the goal of the Palestinian people, but the goal of the terrorists is to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth. No two-state solution will stop Hezbollah or HAMAS. Only killing the terrorists will do that. And if you don't like how Israel is doing it, what do you propose they do? I'm not all that excited about the killing of civilians, either, but in this case especially, the terrorists are using civilians to give Israel no choice but to either accept some civilian losses, or allow the terrorist attacks to continue unopposed.


So I ask you: what should Israel do in the face of these terrorist attacks? Should they capitulate to the terrorists' demands? They've tried that before, and it didn't accomplish anything. Should there be a cease-fire? They've tried cease-fires before, and all that accomplished was to allow the terrorists to re-arm.

What should Israel do? A two-state solution will not stop the terrorists because, despite your analogy, a two-state solution will not accomplish their mission (or they would have established a Palestinian state years ago).




And one more thing: the death toll at Qana, originally thought to be nearly 60 (54-57), almost 40 of them children, has been revised. Human Rights Watch reported that a total of 28 people had been killed...which raises a question: are the press now getting their death toll reports and their photo-ops from Hezbollah?

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Originally Posted by TK-8252
There's no question that there will be press manipulation in a situation like this. There was a clip on Anderson Cooper's show where he explains how Hezbollah stages ambulances racing through streets sirens and all, even though there's no new casualties, and making sure that it's filmed. No question Hezbollah is using the press to their advantage.

But if you honestly think that there is some kind of massive conspiracy by all of the press (with the exception of Faux of course) to spread propaganda for Hezbollah, then you must be paranoid. The footage of mass burials in Tyre is real. The footage of flattened apartment buildings with people still buried in the ruins is real. The footage of a charred Red Cross ambulance is real. The footage of a bombed Lebanese hospital is real.
It doesn't have to be "some kind of massive conspiracy," and I never alleged that it was. The press doesn't have to be conspiring in order to deliver the same kind of biased propaganda that they've been putting out...they just have to let themselves be manipulated by the terrorists, just like they've been doing. That's not responsible journalism - at the best, it's just biased reporting, and at the worst, it is aiding a terrorist organization.


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Old 08-11-2006, 06:48 PM   #194
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Does that mean that Israel has been providing care to the Palestinians? That being the case, I don't think the Palestinians have a whole heck of a lot to complain about.
Exactly! Except from the facts that their land is occupied, their civilians being murdered, and a huge wall being built straight across their sovereign territories. Whiners.

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So I ask you: what should Israel do in the face of these terrorist attacks?
And I answer, again: Give Palestine back to the Palestinians. Not all of it, or even most of it, but a significant part of it. The Two-State Solution.

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And one more thing: the death toll at Qana, originally thought to be nearly 60 (54-57), almost 40 of them children, has been revised. Human Rights Watch reported that a total of 28 people had been killed...which raises a question: are the press now getting their death toll reports and their photo-ops from Hezbollah?
Far from necessarily.

The death toll of 9/11 was once estimated to be 3500+, remember? People make mistakes, plain and simple. Numbers will always vary.

Oh, and how do you know Human Rights Watch's number is the correct one? Because it's lower than the other number?

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Old 08-11-2006, 07:26 PM   #195
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Oh, and how do you know Human Rights Watch's number is the correct one? Because it's lower than the other number?
Because, like the article I sourced says, HRW got their numbers from the Lebanese Red Cross and a government hospital in Tyre.

Also, the main point of the article is that although the death toll has been revised, mainstream press organizations are continuing to report the erroneous death toll.

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Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
And I answer, again: Give Palestine back to the Palestinians. Not all of it, or even most of it, but a significant part of it. The Two-State Solution.
And how will that stop terrorists whose stated objective is not to secure a Palestinian state, but to wipe Israel out entirely? And how should Israel respond to further terrorist attacks after a Palestinian state is established?

Israel has already come out in favor of the two-state solution. It's the terrorists that have rejected it.

What offends the terrorists is not the absence of a Palestinian state, it is the presence of Israel. Just saying "The Two-State Solution" doesn't cut it. The two-state solution is not going to stop the terrorism; it is not going to keep Hezbollah and HAMAS from using civilians as human shields.


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Old 08-11-2006, 07:58 PM   #196
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You know what I think? One side will not be happy until the other side is wiped out. That is the impression I get when I see resolution after resolution rejected, that anything less that, say, the destruction of Israel, is not good enough.
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Old 08-11-2006, 08:04 PM   #197
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You know what I think? One side will not be happy until the other side is wiped out. That is the impression I get when I see resolution after resolution rejected, that anything less that, say, the destruction of Israel, is not good enough.
That's all I'm saying. Average Joe Palestinian may be fine with the two-state solution, but real, lasting peace will not be achieved until either Israel or the terrorists are wiped out.


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Old 08-11-2006, 08:09 PM   #198
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Sorry for a double post, but there's breaking news:

Israeli PM Has Accepted Cease-Fire Deal


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Old 08-11-2006, 08:18 PM   #199
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That's all I'm saying. Average Joe Palestinian may be fine with the two-state solution, but real, lasting peace will not be achieved until either Israel or the terrorists are wiped out.
I wouldn't go that far, as your news about Israel accepting a cease fire shows, but without question there would be those on both sides who would be pushing for exactly that, for the genocide of the Jews or the Palestinions.
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Old 08-12-2006, 04:07 AM   #200
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I'm not so confident in the two-state solution either... the goal of the Palestinian terrorist groups is to get ALL of the land back, which would mean that even with an independent Palestinian state, they would continue to be a thorn in Israel's side.

It's a step though.

The most important thing to remember is that places where there is high unemployment breeds violence. This was mentioned in that educational video in this thread. From the ghettos in U.S. cities where crime is rampant, to impoverished and frustrated young Muslims in France, to the horrible situation in the Palestinian Territories, we can see that where there is unemployment there is violence.

If the Palestinians - with their own state - could build an economy where unemployment isn't the 50% that it is now, there would be hope that less young Muslim men would turn to suicide bombing when they have the chance to become electricians, doctors, and engineers instead. That's the bottom line. More people in jobs = less people in terrorism.
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