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Old 08-08-2006, 11:43 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Darth_Terros
But surely by saying that the Old testament has fallacies in it is going against the bible which is the word of god? and wouldnt saying god is wrong make you a very bad little christian?
Many Christians debate over how literal we should take the Old Testament. For example, some believe that Earth being created in six days really means six days, and is not symbolic for 6,000 years or something like that. Genesis could very well be symbolic and in fact the Big Bang could have actually been the cause of creation, except that it was initiated by God.

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The New Testament is the worst. It wasn't even written by those that witnessed the alleged christ. The earliest gospel was probably written around 70 CE, and the remaining gospels except John were based on this and another text that has yet to be discovered.

Errors and inconsistencies in the stories between the writers abound, most notably the ignorance one of the anonymous authors had about the geography of the region as he had Jesus zig-zagging around the Sea of Galilee in a manner that wouldn't have occurred.

Mark was the first gospel, and the anonymous authors of Luke and Matthew basically plagiarized Mark and Q (another gospel source).
Keep in mind the gospels don't describe every single moment of Jesus' travels. So if one chapter they're at one place and the next chapter they've leapt to a different part of the area, that just means the author skipped several events to get there. They only included the most important and memorable stories.

The gospel writers may have very well worked off of Mark's, but who cares? Mark was one of Jesus' disciples. Luke wasn't. Luke was only a companion of Paul. Most likely, Luke went around and interviewed witnesses and those who knew Jesus. John's gospel is different because it is his own version -- he was one of Jesus' closest disciples.

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Old 08-08-2006, 12:17 PM   #122
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The gospels might not even describe a single moment of jesus' travels. There's no evidence that they were authored by their title names and quite a bit that indicates that they were authored by those that weren't alleged to be directly connected with the alleged christ.

The gospel of John differs because it was written by an anonymous author who didn't read Mark or Q.


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Old 08-08-2006, 12:30 PM   #123
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So, basically, your assumption is that the entire history of Christianity - and the whole reason it spread to become the single largest-followed religion on Earth - with one-third of the world's population accepting its message - is because of a huge network of lies and carefully planned out made-up stories, which are compiled in one, 1,000+ page book. Yes, that makes sense.

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Old 08-08-2006, 01:09 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joetheeskimo
So, basically, your assumption is that the entire history of Christianity - and the whole reason it spread to become the single largest-followed religion on Earth - with one-third of the world's population accepting its message - is because of a huge network of lies and carefully planned out made-up stories, which are compiled in one, 1,000+ page book. Yes, that makes sense.
Just because its popular doesnt make it right i mean the nazi party was pretty popular in germany at one point and look how that turned out.

Christianity has been forced on more people over the years than any other religion hell at one time if you didnt believe it you wouldve been killed which kind of gave them a boost when it came to spreading across earth.


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Old 08-08-2006, 01:17 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joetheeskimo
So, basically, your assumption is that the entire history of Christianity - and the whole reason it spread to become the single largest-followed religion on Earth - with one-third of the world's population accepting its message - is because of a huge network of lies and carefully planned out made-up stories, which are compiled in one, 1,000+ page book. Yes, that makes sense.
that is a terrbly cynical statement. Skin is a man that deals with facts, he is stating them. Whether or not Jesus, or any figure within any theology actually existed or did what is written becomes immaterial in matters of faith. Faith is something complex, and far more than a collection of facts and figures. It is a sociological, political and psychological phenomenon that is an innate construct of humanity alone. ie. It's a really tricky subject !

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Old 08-08-2006, 01:23 PM   #126
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So, basically, your assumption is that the entire history of Christianity - and the whole reason it spread to become the single largest-followed religion on Earth - with one-third of the world's population accepting its message - is because of a huge network of lies and carefully planned out made-up stories, which are compiled in one, 1,000+ page book. Yes, that makes sense.
So, basically, your assumption is that it must all be true because that's what most of everyone you know believes.

If that's not a logical fallacy, they don't exist!

Its an argument from authority, because it relies on time and quantity as authorities to provide veracity rather than testing or inquiry.

Its an argument from personal incredulity because the adherents of christian cults can't explain the world any other way -mostly by refusal to inquire or examine.

It's Ad ignorantum because its believers say it must be true because they don't know it isn't.

It's a Non sequitur because it doesn't follow that just because there are a lot of cult followers that they must be right. Its argued that 33% of the world follows some brand of christianity. But this 33% agrees on very little! It includes after all, Mormons, Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. There are, by the way, a lot of Muslims in the world. Indeed, the Islamic cults are, together, the fastest growing! By your own logic, would that not indicate that you are WRONG! Xianity isn't the way to go -Islam is!

Finally, the argument is a tautology, because it argues we know xianity to be true "because it tells us so" as the Sunday school hymn goes.

For the most part, humans get their world beliefs and religious ideas from the parents. This is readily apparent simply by looking at the obvious correlation between nations and regions with predominant religions and noting that no christians are born in Saudi Arabia to parents that are Muslim; no Hindi born to parents in Dublin who weren't already Hindu; and no Buddhists are born to Mormon families in Utah.

The numbers of people who convert to other religious cults or give them up entirely is small (though the numbers giving up religion is growing).

The world was colonized by nations like Britain, France, Belgium, Spain, and Portugual. Each ruled by monarchs who had "divine provenance" and empowered by the Judeo-Christian faith.

Going further back in time, each of these nations was once part of a larger empire of Rome, which conquered what it termed "pagan" religions -stealing many of their icons and myths to adopt for the new christian cults that took their places. Indeed, there were competing cults at the conception of christianity, one of them being Mithraism, which celebrated he birth of Mithra on Dec. 25 (none of the gospels mention this date), visited by magi bearing gifts; celebrates consumption of wine & bread and baptism as sacraments; etc.

Evidence is suggestive that these two competing cults may have originated from the much, MUCH earlier cult of Dionysus, who's myth is strikingly similar to that of the Jesus myth.

The evidence is, that the early christian cult leaders were looking for ways to gain and maintain patriarchal power. They stole/borrowed the mythologies of the peoples they sought to influence as a method of developing trust or just outright deception.

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html


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Old 08-08-2006, 01:31 PM   #127
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And with that post SkinWalker has won this thread.

The awesomeness of that post nearly brought a tear to my eye.


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Old 08-08-2006, 01:42 PM   #128
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I just believe that people should think and question. That religion has cast some "spell" to prevent inquiry is wrong. That it is somehow taboo to criticize religions and religious practices is nuts, particularly when the five or six major religious cults of the world (Sunnism, Shi'aism, Baptists, Catholicism, etc. -particularly the evangelicals of each) have such a profound effect on societies and governments to the point of being dangerous.

Planes flown into buildings, pseudoscience in public schools, government policy and decisions based on religious dogma...


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Old 08-08-2006, 01:44 PM   #129
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Well how do You explain this prophecy, in Revalations it says that natural disasters, Wars, and all would rise aganst Israel. These are very true signs that Jesus' second coming is very near.
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Old 08-08-2006, 01:49 PM   #130
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Well how do You explain this prophecy, in Revalations it says that natural disasters, Wars, and all would rise aganst Israel. These are very true signs that Jesus' second coming is very near.
... that is so damn retarded

Natural disasters happen because they are natural they happen all the freaking time all through out history there has been natural disasters and theres nothing to suggest at all that they are becoming more frequent or worse.

Wars well name a time in our history where there hasnt been a war.

I dont see everyone rising agasint Isreal.


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Old 08-08-2006, 02:14 PM   #131
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ok here we go
Iran has missiles right they are going to use those against the us tryin to turn the us against israel.
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Old 08-08-2006, 02:20 PM   #132
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And, so, is the strawman tactic now to change the argument from inquiry about christianity to the current political problems in the Middle East.

People go to war. Natural disasters happen. Predicting either or even both is hardly a "prophecy."


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Old 08-08-2006, 02:36 PM   #133
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These are very true signs that Jesus' second coming is very near.
You do know that the Christians have ALWAYS been claiming that right? My parents, who were raised Jehovah's Witnesses (they're not anymore), both say that they remember from childhood being told that "the end is near." My dad really regrets the fact that he was discouraged from education because his parents thought that Armageddon was almost here. He now, as an atheist, embraces education, and encourages me to be something that he never had the chance to be, like a teacher or a journalist.

My parents are both middle-aged and no freakin' end of the world despite what their religion told them. Next time when all the Christians get excited about the "end times" and they never come, why won't they just admit that they have no clue when the "second coming" is near.
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Old 08-08-2006, 02:50 PM   #134
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You do know that the Christians have ALWAYS been claiming that right? My parents, who were raised Jehovah's Witnesses (they're not anymore), both say that they remember from childhood being told that "the end is near." My dad really regrets the fact that he was discouraged from education because his parents thought that Armageddon was almost here. He now, as an atheist, embraces education, and encourages me to be something that he never had the chance to be, like a teacher or a journalist.
Yes, that is what Jehovah's Witnesses teach, and that's also why Presbyterians dont' refer to Jehovah's Witnesses as "Christians". The New Testament tells all Christians to live our lives as normal, and nowhere in there does it say to stop everything and hide in your house, because the end is near. "Near" can mean millennia.
However, from a scientific viewpoint, things are deteriorating, and conditions are much worse since your dad was a kid (global warming, ozone depletion, etc.)

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My parents are both middle-aged and no freakin' end of the world despite what their religion told them. Next time when all the Christians get excited about the "end times" and they never come, why won't they just admit that they have no clue when the "second coming" is near.
We have admitted that. For a while, Jesus' disciples thought the ned was really, really near -- that it would be in their lifetime. Eventually, they realized Jesus had a different definition of "near", and that was why they began to plant churches: because they realized they needed to settle down and survive the attacks of the Roman Empire and other oppressors, since the end was, in fact, farther than they thought. So if anyone you know gave up education or something else thinking that the end was coming within months, then that person has got the wrong idea.

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And with that post SkinWalker has won this thread.

The awesomeness of that post nearly brought a tear to my eye.
You're right. He's won this argument, because I'm tired of countering what he says. Enjoy your victory.

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Old 08-08-2006, 02:55 PM   #135
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Quote:
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Yes, that is what Jehovah's Witnesses teach, and that's also why Presbyterians dont' refer to Jehovah's Witnesses as "Christians". The New Testament tells all Christians to live our lives as normal, and nowhere in there does it say to stop everything and hide in your house, because the end is near. "Near" can mean millennia.
However, from a scientific viewpoint, things are deteriorating, and conditions are much worse since your dad was a kid (global warming, ozone depletion, etc.)
BTW. Global Warming / Ozone depletion have not been scientifically proven. It's only propaganda fed to people by scruffy lookin' nerfherders like Al Gore.

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Old 08-08-2006, 03:55 PM   #136
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Is it?

There isn't a single, respected scientist that I can think of that refutes global warming... the scientific community is pretty universal in their acceptance of it as fact.

But we are off topic (again... )


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Old 08-08-2006, 04:07 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halo92
Well how do You explain this prophecy, in Revalations it says that natural disasters, Wars, and all would rise aganst Israel. These are very true signs that Jesus' second coming is very near.
To quote Billy Joel "We didn't start the fire", the world is and always will be some what unstable.
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Old 08-08-2006, 04:19 PM   #138
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As long as there is man there will be war as Einstien once said.
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Old 08-08-2006, 05:00 PM   #139
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As long as there is man there will be war as Einstien once said.
Yeah, I saw that quote on Call of Duty 2.



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Old 08-08-2006, 05:01 PM   #140
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I saw it in the first Call of Duty.
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Old 08-08-2006, 07:06 PM   #141
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I used to be a christian. It's funny I went to public schools most of my life, but when I went to a private christian school I just couldn't belive it all any more. Religions, to me, just don't add up.


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Old 08-08-2006, 08:27 PM   #142
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I used to be a christian. It's funny I went to public schools most of my life, but when I went to a private christian school I just couldn't belive it all any more. Religions, to me, just don't add up.
They don't make sense...

And there's a reason Christianity is so popular: FEAR.

Hinduism says that if you don't believe it, no prob, go out and do your own thing and you're good!
Buddhism says that if you don't believe it, no prob, go out and do your own thing and you're good!
Christianity says that if you don't believe it, no prob, YOU'LL JUST BURN IN HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY AND KNOW UNENDING PAIN FOREVER.

...and that is no good!


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Old 08-08-2006, 10:24 PM   #143
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Actually, Christianity says you can believe whatever you want but if you don't accept that Jesus died for you and that God will allways love you and be willing to care for you then YOU'LL JUST BURN IN HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY!!!!!!!!
It's not like you guys haven't had fair warning or anything.




The following tale of alien encounter is true and by true, I mean false. Its all lies. But they're entertaining lies, and in the end isn't that the real truth? The answer is no.
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Old 08-08-2006, 10:29 PM   #144
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Actually, Christianity says you can believe whatever you want but if you don't accept that Jesus died for you and that God will allways love you and be willing to care for you then YOU'LL JUST BURN IN HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY!!!!!!!!
It's not like you guys haven't had fair warning or anything.
If Jesus comes back I'll lock him in a closet nobody tells me what to do.

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Old 08-08-2006, 10:35 PM   #145
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Yes, have fun with that. THEN BURN IN HELL!!!!!!!!




The following tale of alien encounter is true and by true, I mean false. Its all lies. But they're entertaining lies, and in the end isn't that the real truth? The answer is no.
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Old 08-08-2006, 10:59 PM   #146
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Quote:
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Actually, Christianity says you can believe whatever you want but if you don't accept that Jesus died for you and that God will allways love you and be willing to care for you then YOU'LL JUST BURN IN HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY!!!!!!!!
It's not like you guys haven't had fair warning or anything.
They say God makes no mistakes, but sending Jesus down just so he can die and scare the hell out of us (literally) seems like a mistake to me.


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Old 08-08-2006, 11:00 PM   #147
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They don't make sense...

And there's a reason Christianity is so popular: FEAR.

Hinduism says that if you don't believe it, no prob, go out and do your own thing and you're good!
Buddhism says that if you don't believe it, no prob, go out and do your own thing and you're good!
Christianity says that if you don't believe it, no prob, YOU'LL JUST BURN IN HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY AND KNOW UNENDING PAIN FOREVER.
Um, no. As far as I know, Catholicism teaches that as long as one does God's will to the best of their knowledge and ability, they will go to Heaven. Besides, Christianity wouldn't be popular if it told people 'come with us or suffer eternal damnation;" people would simply leave.

Quote:
They say God makes no mistakes, but sending Jesus down just so he can die and scare the hell out of us (literally) seems like a mistake to me.
How so? He didn't seem to scare the hell out of us....
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Old 08-08-2006, 11:12 PM   #148
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They say God makes no mistakes, but sending Jesus down just so he can die and scare the hell out of us (literally) seems like a mistake to me.
How did He scare you? I don't get it.
And it wasn't a mistake. God sent Jesus to earth to witness but the main reason was so that Jesus could die for us. He had to die for us to redeem us of our sins. Thanks to Him we are all forgiven as soon as we ask. Because Jesus was 100% perfect the ultimate sacrifice, perfect and pure it counters all our sins. He came here to die for us.




The following tale of alien encounter is true and by true, I mean false. Its all lies. But they're entertaining lies, and in the end isn't that the real truth? The answer is no.
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Old 08-08-2006, 11:18 PM   #149
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He had to die for us to redeem us of our sins. Thanks to Him we are all forgiven as soon as we ask.
Wow that makes no sense at all. God forgave us for our sins... because we killed his son.

He must have really hated his son.
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Old 08-08-2006, 11:22 PM   #150
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No, Because we have sinned against him we need forgivness. So Jesus was willing to come down to earth, represent mankind, and die for us. Therefore being the perfect sacrifce because He was completely sinless.




The following tale of alien encounter is true and by true, I mean false. Its all lies. But they're entertaining lies, and in the end isn't that the real truth? The answer is no.
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Old 08-08-2006, 11:24 PM   #151
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Quote:
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How did He scare you? I don't get it.
And it wasn't a mistake. God sent Jesus to earth to witness but the main reason was so that Jesus could die for us. He had to die for us to redeem us of our sins. Thanks to Him we are all forgiven as soon as we ask. Because Jesus was 100% perfect the ultimate sacrifice, perfect and pure it counters all our sins. He came here to die for us.
So... if I kill two-thousand retarded albino children and then go to church and say "Please forgive me." I get a free ticket to heaven?

...bitchin'.


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Old 08-08-2006, 11:24 PM   #152
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No, Because we have sinned against him we need forgivness. So Jesus was willing to come down to earth, represent mankind, and die for us. Therefore being the perfect sacrifce because He was completely sinless.
Nobody is born guilty of anything
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Old 08-08-2006, 11:26 PM   #153
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No, Because we have sinned against him we need forgivness. So Jesus was willing to come down to earth, represent mankind, and die for us. Therefore being the perfect sacrifce because He was completely sinless.
If he was completely sinless, how the hell did he represent mankind? Shouldn't a sinner represent mankind?

And why, when god created us as sinners, should we be punished for sinning? Shouldn't god be cursing himself for creating sin? Why did he create sin?
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Old 08-08-2006, 11:44 PM   #154
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Smon, Yes if you truly mean that you're sorry.

Samnmax, What?

TK8252, If a sinner represented mankind then his death wouldn't have covered all of our sins seeing as he wouldn't be the perfet sacrifice. Jesus could represent us 'cause he was a human sinless or not. God created us to praise and love Him. Now, he didn't create us as sinners born to rot in hell He created us with free wills. What good would a bunch of clones without free wills be that just bow down and worship because they know nothing else? It's not His fault YOU sin. You do that by yourself.




The following tale of alien encounter is true and by true, I mean false. Its all lies. But they're entertaining lies, and in the end isn't that the real truth? The answer is no.
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Old 08-08-2006, 11:49 PM   #155
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So... if I kill two-thousand retarded albino children and then go to church and say "Please forgive me." I get a free ticket to heaven?
As long as you are truly sorry for doing it and somehow make up for it, then you will go to Heaven (assuming you didn't do any other sort of sinning ).
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If he was completely sinless, how the hell did he represent mankind? Shouldn't a sinner represent mankind?
Let's say you break your neighbor's window. Simply apologizing wouldn't work, so you would have to pay for it. But what if it cost $1 googol to replace? Adam and Eve's sin was so great that it would be impossible for mere humans to pay off. So, the only other option would be for God to sacrifice Himself to Himself: the perfect sacrifice, like St. Jimmy said.
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Old 08-08-2006, 11:50 PM   #156
TK-8252
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Originally Posted by St. Jimmy
God created us to praise and love Him.
What a big god damn ego he must have.

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Originally Posted by St. Jimmy
Now, he didn't create us as sinners born to rot in hell He created us with free wills. What good would a bunch of clones without free wills be that just bow down and worship because they know nothing else? It's not His fault YOU sin. You do that by yourself.
I see. So he created us to worship him BUT also gave us free will.

But using said free will to say, work on Sunday, will get me sent to burn in hell forever.

Ironic.
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Old 08-08-2006, 11:57 PM   #157
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Actually, working on the sabbath (wich is more than likely Saturday btw) won't get you ETERNAL DAMNATION!!!!!!!! 'cause you can just ask for forgiveness. As for the ego thing, if you had those powers wouldn't you do something like that ?
No, but really, He does deserve it. (the praise) and also He reciprocates.




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Old 08-08-2006, 11:59 PM   #158
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What a big god damn ego he must have.
Well, if you believe He created all of humanity, then you'd think He'd deserve it.
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
I see. So he created us to worship him BUT also gave us free will.

But using said free will to say, work on Sunday, will get me sent to burn in hell forever.

Ironic.
If you do it purposely so as to defy God, then it would be a sin. But working on Sundays to put food on the table wouldn't send anyone to Hell.

EDIT: Dang. St. Jimmy keeps beating me to it.
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Old 08-09-2006, 12:17 AM   #159
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Not to bust in on here with your converstation and stuff (my views on the topic I presume are well known), but Skin, didn't you say in the old religion thread how you had some amazing data you were going to show on the Historicity of Jesus?

PM me.


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Old 08-09-2006, 12:19 AM   #160
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Samnmax, What?
I'm not going to spend my whole my whole in servitude because some naked people supposedly ate some fruit. The who point behind the Adam and Eve story is that knowledge is dangerous.
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God created us to praise and love Him.
I much prefer living for only for myself.
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