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Old 08-09-2006, 12:21 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Darth Andrew
If you do it purposely so as to defy God, then it would be a sin. But working on Sundays to put food on the table wouldn't send anyone to Hell.
"But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns."
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Old 08-09-2006, 12:43 AM   #162
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Kurg,

Man, I don't remember. I'll have to review that thread and see if I can remember what it was. I've been busy, busy, busy...


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Old 08-09-2006, 12:48 AM   #163
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Skin,

Typical! You probably have the meaning of life lying around too, lost in a pile of unfinished projects!

Hey, I feel your pain; I'm totally disorganized! My apartment needs to be cleansed from top to bottom I swear...

Okay, off to bed for me!


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Old 08-09-2006, 12:52 AM   #164
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Okay, off to bed for me!
i know what u mean
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Old 08-09-2006, 02:43 AM   #165
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you know, there's something ive been wondering all this while. many christians i know say that God is more powerful than Satan. if true, why doesnt God just pwn Satan and restore a sin-free society?

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Typical! You probably have the meaning of life lying around too, lost in a pile of unfinished projects!
well, it's 42. i thought you knew that


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Old 08-09-2006, 05:21 AM   #166
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"But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns."
But the whole reason God made the sabbath His holy day is 1. So we have a day that we can dedicate to the LORD and 2. For US! He wants us to rest on that day becaude He knows it's good for us! He made us, He knows everything about us and He know that we should rest on the last day of the week. That is why He commanded us to keep the seventh day holy.
Also RC, If He were to just get rid of satan and sin with him then, like I was saying earlier, it would defeat the whole purpose of God having created us with our free wills. However, In Heaven there will be no sin and no satan. We will have fought the final battle and God will have (easily) triumphed over satan.




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Old 08-09-2006, 09:21 AM   #167
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Question then:

Do you do no work from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown as prescribed in the Commandments... or do you do what most Christians do, and observe Sunday midnight to midnight (which is technically the FIRST day of the week.)

I believe that this is important. Keeping the Sabbath IS one of the 10 Commandments. And the exact way that you are supposed to keep it is laid out in very specific detail. And I believe, if I am remembering correctly, that there is language there to observe it this way "... for all time."

So that means that the vast majority of Christians are breaking one of the Commandments each and every week.

Somebody changed it at some point. Which makes me very curious... Who, exactly, has the authority to decide to override one of the 10 Commandments?

I won't even get into the point that God clearly outlined all the Holy days that he wants people to observe and use for worship... and that most of these days are now ignored by Christians in favor of holidays (Christmas, Easter, Halloween...) that (as Skin so deftly pointed out) are pagan celebrations in origin.

This is an aspect of modern Christianity that I've never been able to quite come to grips with. Was God just wasting his breath on these commandments, or do humans have the power to belay orders of His that are inconvenient for us?


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Old 08-09-2006, 11:46 AM   #168
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Somebody changed it at some point. Which makes me very curious... Who, exactly, has the authority to decide to override one of the 10 Commandments?
Jesus does. But I don't actually know where along the way it changed from Saturday to Sunday, but since Sunday is the day Christians worship, it's the day we rest on. If we worshipped on Saturday like Jews, that would be our Sabbath.

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I won't even get into the point that God clearly outlined all the Holy days that he wants people to observe and use for worship... and that most of these days are now ignored by Christians in favor of holidays (Christmas, Easter, Halloween...) that (as Skin so deftly pointed out) are pagan celebrations in origin.

This is an aspect of modern Christianity that I've never been able to quite come to grips with. Was God just wasting his breath on these commandments, or do humans have the power to belay orders of His that are inconvenient for us?
One of the things that sets Christians very much apart from Jews is that we believe when Jesus came, he changed many people's ideas of what the law said. For example - the Jews are told, in order to divorce your wife you must give her a certificate of divorce. But - Matthew 19:8 - "Jesus said, Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But this was not the way from the beginning. I tell you than anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, commits aldultery."

In this way, he changed many Old Testament rules that God had set down for the Israelites - and one of the things he always denounced in the Jewish teachers of the law was that they were too legalistic - they followed every single word in the Old Testament and actaed all high-and-mighty as a result. So much of the laws you read in hte Old Testament have changed since the beginning of Christianity.

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Old 08-09-2006, 12:26 PM   #169
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Well, that's the explanation I always get, but the whole thing seems a little redundant to me: To make one set of laws that are eternal and everlasting... then to re-write the entire thing a couple of thousand years later with a whole new set of eternal, everlasting laws.

But my point is that the Sabbath command is the only one of the 10 Commandments that Christians state isn't to be obeyed in both the letter and spirit of the law. Just the spirit of the law...

You don't hear too many Christians saying that we don't need to worry about adultery (if anything, your own example shows a much stricter definition of the spirit of the law than the letter...) murder, lying, taking the Lord's name in vain, etc...

The Sabbath command has always seemed to me to be the only one of the 10 where it seems OK to ignore the letter of the law in favor of the spirit. (Well, since it's possible that a Crucifix might be defined as a graven image, maybe that one too...)

Since Jesus and all the apostles were devout Jews, we can only imagine that they always kept the Jewish (seventh-day) Sabbath. And if it was good enough for them...

My deep suspicion is that the day Christians were to worship on was changed much, much later, by a law of man, rather than God. Probably to differentiate themselves from Jews during a time of persecution... and/or to convert a group of non-Christians who already worshipped on that day.

I don't think God would have placed so much emphasis on that particular command if he had meant to overturn it a few years down the road. To state otherwise is to imply that there was no plan in place, and He's just making the whole thing up as He goes along. That doesn't feel right to me either...

It's just something I think about.


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Old 08-09-2006, 04:59 PM   #170
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Christians observe the Sabbath on Sunday because that is the day Jesus rose from the dead.


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Old 08-09-2006, 06:55 PM   #171
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^That's not why we have sabbath Moeller. We don't know the exact day that God had in mind for us when He was talking about the sabbath, (if you ask me it's Saturday) But we do know that he wanted us to consistetly have a full day of rest and prayer. Most Christians do this on Sunday 'cause they figure 'Oh, well we've already gone to church we'll just dedicate the rest of the day to the LORD.'. They can do what they want but I think you're supposed to have a day set aside for God as well as go to church on Sunday. Really, it's not that hard. Alot of Christians just ignore this rule because they're busy on Saturday or they just can't be bothered to obey this commandment. It's wierd, and they should be treating it with as much respect as the other commandments.




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Old 08-10-2006, 09:26 AM   #172
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Well the Old Testament (or the "Covenant with Moses," the Hebrew Bible, if you prefer, since it is only the "Old Testament" to Christians though this is common parlance to most Americans) indicates that the "seventh day" is the "Sabbath" (day of rest) for the Hebrew people/Israelites/Jews, so that would be Saturday. Reckoning of the day begins at sundown on Friday to sundown Saturday.

The reason Christians began to worship specifically on the first day of the week (which would be Sunday) is because of the early belief that Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday, making it "the Lord's Day." According to historical evidence, many Christians (and Jesus' followers of "The Way" before they were called "Christians") continued to worship on Saturday as well, considering the majority of the early disciples were Jews, and this was the traditional Sabbath.

The movement eventually become dominated by Gentile converts and then generations of people who were raised Christian, so the Sabbath keeping eventually faded out.

There is also tradition going back to Jesus about the Sabbath as not something strictly kept, since Jesus proclaimed it was lawful to "do good" on the Sabbath (as the Pharisees agreed in principle). He declared that since God could work miracles and good works on the Sabbath through him, it was okay for his followers to do so as well and that the "Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." The "spirit of the law" according to the traditional words of Jesus was that "the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."

Many followers interpreted this as, yes, you continue to keep the Sabbath, but you don't neglect doing good works or helping people on that day (rather than avoiding "all work," period and haggling over what constitutes "work"), while others interpreted to mean that setting aside the seventh day as special really was no longer important for Christians (Paul the apostle writes in his letter to the Romans 14:5-6 "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.")

Today many denominations (if they are large or active enough) do provide services on more than just Sunday, but traditionally Sunday is the day people go to services (and Saturday is thought of as more of a "backup" if you are going to miss out on Sunday, such as people who have to work that day). It's traditional, much like having worship services in the morning, rather than in the evening or night (many churches offer services at these times as well).

There are a few churches designated "Sabbartarian" (that is "Sabbath Keeping") such as the Seventh Day Adventists, who generally believe that it was always meant to be Saturday and this was never "changed" and so no Christian has the authority to avoid Saturday worship as the true day of observance, etc. This is a minority view within Christianity and really didn't gain strength until the 19th century, but still.

To put things into perspective, most Christians don't take the "10 commandments" hyper literally anyway, since if they did, they'd have a few things to wonder about, like what exactly does it mean to put other gods "before" the God of Israel (does that mean you can acknowledge other gods, so long as you don't consider them more powerful than God or you can think they exist but don't worship them? Or just don't place actual idols in front of God?), or "bearing false witness" does that apply to all lying or only false testimony in a court of law against somebody who lives near to you?

Does forbidding adultery mean it's okay to sleep with your neighbor as long as neither of you is married to somebody else at the time?

Does 'not coveting your neighbor's wife' mean it only applies to men?

Does "keep Holy the name of the Lord/do not take the name of the Lord your God in vain" refer to misuse of the tetragrammaton used as a magical incantation, false oaths invoking the "Lord's Name," or forbid simple "profanity"? (or only that which involves references to deity?) Does it apply to Jesus' name also? Etc.

And so on and so forth.

Christians generally say that they "follow the Bible" but that doesn't mean the same thing to all of them. Traditionally, it is believed that Jesus re-ratified certain points of the Mosaic law (Law of Moses, in the Old Testament, primarily in the books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, that is the "Books of the Law" the Torah/Pentateuch), reinterpreted others (reading them "spiritually") and abrogated the rest all as part of the "New Covenant". Even though these words are still in Christian Bibles, they are not considered necessary to be followed by Christians today.

That's why you don't typically see Christians stoning people for working on the Sabbath or cursing one's parents, keeping kosher food laws, etc.

Even modern Jews don't keep these commandments hyper-literally, but instead refer to the interpretations of the later sages and Rabbis who inspired, contributed to and compiled the "Oral Torah" in the Talmud (including the commentaries on the Law, and the commentaries on those commentaries).


There is a popular (but misleading) notion among many people today that Saturday was the Sabbath until Emperor Constantine changed it to Sunday (presumably because he was still a pagan at the time, and pagans worshipped the Sun God on Sunday) in the 4th century, and thus nobody need pay attention to this "new worship day" (this seems to be the argument used by many Sabbartarians as well). I think this was bolstered by the Da Vinci Code as well. There's evidence in the early Christian writings that Jesus' followers did worship on Sunday from very early on, and Saturday began to fade out as a dual special day of worship among non-Jewish converts to the new religion.

For example by the 3rd century of the Common Era, the Christian movement was not seen by outsiders as a Jewish sect but as its own cult. This helps explain the persecution of Christians (the Romans considered "old" religions to be good, but new religions to be "superstition" and thus dangerous and spurious... this is why even though the Jews were thought of as weird for denying the Roman pantheon, they at least could claim they had been around a long time, plus they were so stubborn in their beliefs they were welcome to them, so the thinking went, but the Christians were some strange johnny-come-latelys that suddenly were rejecting the gods and just yesterday they were pagans doing everything like everyone else) and the move towards defining their own boundaries. Christians and non-Christian Jews were in tension with one another for a long time, but the "break" between them is debated among scholars. There seems to be a growing understanding that this "schism" was much more gradual in many places than previously thought (in other words, Jesus' followers were not all expelled from the synagogue during Jesus' own lifetime as often implied in Bible readings). The cultural situation is much more complex than that.

Anyway, I've rambled on enough, many of you probably already knew that but I thought I'd toss that out to people that were interested.

Daniel Boyarin and George Nickelsburg are two modern scholars of Early Christianity and Judaism who have written several books on the topic which helped me understand the complexities of the issue, and could provide a good introduction for others as well. See also Paula Fredricksen and James Dunn for new perspectives on the apostle Paul and the debate. Geza Vermes has also written extensively on the teachings of Jesus from a Jewish perspective and in Jewish context (the Historical Jesus is of course not one monolithic theory but a set of varying theories, and his provides a good example on the topic).


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Old 08-10-2006, 11:00 AM   #173
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Eh...are you a Christian, or just really, really informed?

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Old 08-10-2006, 11:11 AM   #174
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im a Christian... i believe in God... but i also accept other religions... i think that they are all facets of the same God... and that the differences in religion are no more than people's individual way of worship and recognition... in my opinion... the bible is not so much a book of rules... but a book of case studies and guidelines as to how we should live our lives... so what that they may not be historically accurate or do not fit into our defined concept or realism... history is written by the victors... therefore that is not neccessarily accurate... it is all dependant on points of view... if we did not have religion... our society would be minimal and lifeless... without christianity there would not be christmas or easter... without religion there would be fewer charities... religion provides a moral basis for us to live our lives... it does not matter whether people believe that there is one God... or whether they only eat certain foods... or worship in a certain way... the important thing is that they believe and trust and have faith...



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Old 08-10-2006, 11:35 AM   #175
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May I ask why you end every sentence with ... ?

I kind of think the label "Christian" doesn't fit, based on your description of your beliefs.

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Old 08-10-2006, 12:02 PM   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joetheeskimo
Eh...are you a Christian, or just really, really informed?

Are the two mutually exclusive?



And actually, slornie's beliefs are not that uncommon. There are many what you might call "liberal" Christians (not just denominations but individuals) who hold similar views and yet consider themselves to be faithful Christians.

Of course, in a more general sense, even those of us who are more "traditional" will still point out, that when push comes to shove, it really is a matter of faith, belief and gut instinct. We all "could be wrong" and ought to be open to the possibility of modifying our assumptions in the face of overwhelming new evidence. Not admitting that is usually a sign of being in denial (but then again if you really have absolutely no doubts or questions, EVER, then lucky for you I guess!).


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Old 08-10-2006, 12:24 PM   #177
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Question then:

Do you do no work from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown as prescribed in the Commandments... or do you do what most Christians do, and observe Sunday midnight to midnight (which is technically the FIRST day of the week.)
I always wondered why some countries view Sunday as the first day of the week.
Here, Sunday is the last day of the week, cause on the 7th day God rested.

Anyone care to explain that though, without going too far off-topic?




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Old 08-10-2006, 07:15 PM   #178
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if we did not have religion... our society would be minimal and lifeless... without christianity there would not be christmas or easter... without religion there would be fewer charities... religion provides a moral basis for us to live our lives...
Fewer charities? Minimal and baseless?

Go to Norway. Largelly atheistic, best nation in the world to live in (UN report). Edit at TK-and-four-numbers-I-keep-forgetting: Shaddup, You.

On-topic
Christianity is not necessarily evil, but it sure as Heck is obsolete. There's no part of it that atheistic institutions does not do better.

Helping people live a better life? Bah, any sound parent can do that. Science is better than teachings in a book. Was it up to the Bible we'd still be using physical punishment (not that many still do).

Saving people from depression, suicide, and so on: We've got therapists, councellors, the Red Cross, Amnesty, and other such organizations. We don't need a Church, we need to get rid of this idiotic taboo on grief and psychiatry. We need to start learning about grief and sorrow in school so we know how to handle it and how to help friends who lose someone. We need to stop keeping boys from expressing their emotions. We need to learn about what psychiatric help is so people don't go around with idiotic misconceptions about it. And finally, we need to learn much more about depression, suicide, self-multilation, divorce, and other sad facts of life buried and not part of schooling.

That will save lives. Knowledge, not a 2000-years old book with obsolete rules such as "stone those who cuzz at their parents to death" or "don't marry someone of your own gender".

We don't need Christianity. It's as simple as that. What's going to save more lives: Donating $60 to your church's upkeep or donating $60 towards Red Cross's ban on land-mines or cluster bombs? Or Amnesty's work to stop violence and human rights abuse? Or Free the Children?

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Well how do You explain this prophecy, in Revalations it says that natural disasters, Wars, and all would rise aganst Israel. These are very true signs that Jesus' second coming is very near.
It's not the first time that's come true.

Why didn't World War II bring about God's coming? There was a huge war, natural disasters - as always - and six million Jews murdered in the dreaded camps.

And not all are rising against Israel as she attempts to get into Guiness' Book of Records under the "most rules of engagmeents broken in the shortest time"-entry. The US government still blindly suppports and sells weapons to Israel and vetoes every UN attempt to control Israel.

So no, no Jesus returning just yet.

Off-topic

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BTW. Global Warming / Ozone depletion have not been scientifically proven. It's only propaganda fed to people by scruffy-lookin' nerfherders like Al Gore.
Someone here has been fed propaganda, and it's not me.

Quote:
To quote Billy Joel "We didn't start the fire", the world is and always will be some what unstable.
It's been soundly proven that humans are behind global warming, which in turn is behind the extreme weather raging around the world. The only thing we don't know for sure is how much humans affect it.

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Anyone care to explain that though, without going too far off-topic?
Skin, correct me if I'm wrong.

According to original Scripture, Sabbath is on Saturday, not Sunday. The Sunday-part is a mis-translation.

Oh, and whoever tries to follow the rules of the Bible, or worse yet, shove them down peoples' throats (cough, anti-homosexuals, cough) should read the Letter to Laura.


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Old 08-10-2006, 09:06 PM   #179
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Dagobahn Eagle,

Oh. My. Goodness. Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about when you preach against Christians. You like the red cross eh? It's called the RED CROSS!!! Surely you realise you're so wrong when you quote: "stone those who cuzz at their parents to death" It's "honour your Mother and your Father" all that crap about what we need to learn rather than read your Bible,.. Half of that stuff could be avoided if those people read the Bible! And as for the physical punishment I follow what the Bible says... Yeah sure dude, I just go out and bash people 'cause they're not doing what the Bible says. Pfft!

As for the whole "oh, Why didn't God come at the second world war?" For goodness sake! it doesn't say "As soon as someone attacks my people then I'm coming for you!" yeesh, at least know what you're talking about before you knock it.




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Old 08-10-2006, 09:47 PM   #180
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Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about when you preach against Christians.
I don't "preach". Preaching is for priests, imams, monks, witch doctors and bishops.

And I'm not "against Christians", just saying how Christianity is obsolete.

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Without religion there wouldn't be easter or Christmas
I don't know about Easter, but there'd certainly be Christmas. People celebrated on the 24th/25th (depending on your nation) for many, many years before Christians came along. According to the Bible, Jesus was born in March, not December. We celebrate on the 24th/25th for some other reason laid down by nature-worshippers.

But to address your point: Yes, there'd be a free week and celebration or two missing. So the Heck what? There'd be others to replace them.

[/Edit]

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You like the red cross eh?
I love the Red Cross! I've finally found something to do in there, too! I'm to take ICRC classes come November, and then I'm hopefully going to be assigned a psychiatric patient to take care of. I wanted to be a refugee guide, but there's no need for more of them (there are people who have been on waiting lists for two years and still have not been assigned a refugee!). But yeah, it's gonna be great.

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It's called the RED CROSS!
Speaking of not knowing what you're talking about...

The Red Cross symbol has nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity. It doesn't even look the same. Some religions and people mis-interpret the Red Cross as a Christian symbol (which has ultimately led to the creation of the even more neutral Red Crystal symbol), but trust me, it's inherently atheistic. Watch The Story of an Idea for more info.

This has been an off-topic ICRC public service announcement.

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Surely you realise you're so wrong when you quote: "stone those who cuzz at their parents to death" It's "honour your Mother and your Father"
Yup, that's one part of the Bible. Another says that you shall be stoned to death when you insult your parents.

The Brick Testament eats you for lunch.

And either way, my point was that a book that contains such drivel is not much of a source for moral teachings.

Quote:
all that crap about what we need to learn rather than read your Bible,.. Half of that stuff could be avoided if those people read the Bible!
Oh?

Give me the passage of the Bible that details coping skills come self-mutilation (I only remember things like "do that and you're a Sinner" - hey, thanks a lot, pal). Give me the passage that tells me what to do and not do - in detail - when a friend of mine loses her mom. Give me a passage that shows me how to settle disputes in marriages (the Bible just has vague ravings about when you can divorce, etc.). And what am I supposed to do when a friend of mine calls and announces that he intends to kill himself? There was a nice helpful list in my Health textbook, not that I hope I'm never going to have to use it, but nothing in the Bible.

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And as for the physical punishment I follow what the Bible says... Yeah sure dude, I just go out and bash people 'cause they're not doing what the Bible says. Pfft!
I meant physical punishment of children who misbehave, which is in the process of being abolished thanks to human progress - as opposed to the Bible and Christianity.

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As for the whole "oh, Why didn't God come at the second world war?" For goodness sake! it doesn't say "As soon as someone attacks my people then I'm coming for you!"
I wasn't the one who put forth the points of the prophecy. I'm just stating they came true in World War II (and quite a few other times), in response to another post on how the current Israel-Lebanon spetacle is a sign of God's coming.

Having said that, if I created a people and named it my chosen one, I'd be sure as Heck to give them a hand when an evil empire was slaughtering six millions of them.


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Old 08-10-2006, 09:57 PM   #181
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Go to Norway. Largelly atheistic, best nation in the world to live in (UN report).
Bah, socialism!

Shrink your government and I'll move there...
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Old 08-10-2006, 10:09 PM   #182
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Weirdly enough, five pages in a religion thread and WWIII has not yet been declared . I just want to remind all of you guys to remain civilised and only respond to arguments by arguments so this thread stays on track. Make sure you leave the flaming and flame baiting at the door. And please don't make anything personnal...

Good debating.
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Old 08-11-2006, 01:58 AM   #183
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I find that many people are just tossing out generalizations left and right here, many of them created by "religion" itself. Any branch of Christianity that teaches people to believe that one will burn in hell over any number of fallacies, is incorrect. There are however, many "Christians" that believe this, when these teachings are not based on Biblical scriptures at all. If one would actually take a look at Biblical scripture itself, instead of relying on information from "another source" (who, by the way, probably won't forget to twist around the words to the understanding they feel most comfortable with), you would find a few things that cannot be misinterperated.

First, we are all fallible beings. Sure we may not be guilty of anything when we are first born, but the fact remains that all human-beings will "mess up" at some time or another. I'm pretty sure that that is something everybody can agree on. To suggest that we aren't fallible beings would just be ridiculous, no matter which way one chooses to look at it.

The ten commandments are merely guidelines. Everybody has broken them, everybody will. And if you read the Bible, what you will find is that God offers salvation to all. Not just those who go to church their whole lives, or those who pray every single day, and twice on Sundays. According to the Bible, you could be 85 and on your deathbed, and ask Jesus into your heart as your personal lord and savior, and you would be granted eternal life.

BUT, once again, we run into that problem known as "religion". Many people over the ages accepted Christian teachings, but thought that this was far too easy to work. So, they created a bunch of rituals and theories to either make themselves feel better, or to simply manipulate people to believing things such as "you will burn in hell if you don't tithe your earnings to the Church." When in fact, that this does not matter at all. According to Biblical scriptures, you could tithe money every single week of your entire life to the Church, and not be any closer to salvation than the man that hasn't even gone to Church. These teachings fall under the category of "religion". Those who believe that such teachings are true are not Christians, though they might label themselves as such. According to the biblical scriptures, the only way you could possibly become a Christian is to accept the aforementioned gift from god.

Also, Jesus offered something along the lines of this...Love thy lord and thy neighbor as yourself. If you do this, you will have fulfilled all of the commandments. Obviously no person would be able to uphold the commandments for their entire lives, which is why it is more or less stated in the Bible that God will forgive us of our sins, no matter which commandment is broken, if we ask for forgiveness. It is in no way "do that and you are a sinner", simply because we already are sinners. Even if one is not a Christian, but prefers to keep some form of moral guidelines will find that they cannot live up to those guidelines day in and day out. We make mistakes.

About the Sabbath, Jesus says something along the lines of: Was the Sabbath created for man, or man created for the Sabbath? If you choose not to rest, that's your deal, and it is not something to worry about.






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I just believe that people should think and question. That religion has cast some "spell" to prevent inquiry is wrong. That it is somehow taboo to criticize religions and religious practices is nuts, particularly when the five or six major religious cults of the world (Sunnism, Shi'aism, Baptists, Catholicism, etc. -particularly the evangelicals of each) have such a profound effect on societies and governments to the point of being dangerous.

Planes flown into buildings, pseudoscience in public schools, government policy and decisions based on religious dogma...
I can agree that yes, "religion" has done this. People may be afraid to ask questions simply because of fear created by "religion". But let me ask you something. Do you acknowledge the distinction between "religion" and faith? Is it possible for someone to be a Christian and in a powerful position, and yet make decisions based on their own morals? That is the problem. Some people will use "religion" as a way to undermine someone else's efforts, for their own political agendas. "No! They can't have morals! They are basing their decisions on religious doctrine!" The fact is, putting an Aetheist in a postion of power, such a position that could make influencial decisions in our society, could make decisions that would be just as influenced by "religion" as putting a Christian up there. The fact is, some people refuse to accept people for what they believe in, and use the word "religion" to blow some situations out of proportion. Think about it. Somebody that is Aethiest and has beliefs (as all human beings do), could be just as influencial in government as a Christian with their beliefs. The only difference is, is that because their beliefs aren't "religious beliefs" (which is what some people tend to label morals), they don't get shot down for it.


I'm a Christian and I have asked questions my whole life. I was raised to not trust what was thrown out there, in the media and in "religious" doctrine alike, but to rather come to a conclusion after doing the research. What it comes down to, for me personally, is nothing like a cult at all. Because I am not "religious". I accept God's free gift and teachings for what they are, and I don't need any crazy rituals and regulations created by man, to attempt to verify those teachings further than they need to be. When you look at it, it is a "win-win" situation.

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Old 08-11-2006, 02:06 AM   #184
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According to the Bible, you could be 85 and on your deathbed, and ask Jesus into your heart as your personal lord and savior, and you would be granted eternal life.
Yeah, you could also be on death row and accept Jesus and go to heaven. Meanwhile, the atheist who's a Red Cross volunteer and who regularly donates to charity is the one who goes to burn in hell for eternity for refusing to believe in a fairytale.

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Old 08-11-2006, 03:23 PM   #185
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Arrgh! I have the worst luck with this forum!

I just spent the better part of an hour typing out a response to this thread, only to have my browser freeze up and crash when I hit the post button!

I thought I'd copied the whole thing as a safety against that possible eventuality, but it was mostly incomplete when I went to paste it.

Why does that never happen on the hundreds of short, meaningless posts I make every week, but only the ones that I spent a significant chunk of thought and time on, and that I don't have the patience to sit and try do over?!??

<Insert stream of very, very bad words here>



*sigh* Maybe I'll try it again, later...


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Old 08-11-2006, 03:33 PM   #186
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Yeah, you could also be on death row and accept Jesus and go to heaven. Meanwhile, the atheist who's a Red Cross volunteer and who regularly donates to charity is the one who goes to burn in hell for eternity for refusing to believe in a fairytale.
Sigh. Exactly. I prefer mythologies that stress the importance of doing good things, rather than just believing in the right thing.

Timothy McVeigh [Christian terrorist* who blew up that courthouse in Oklahoma]and Paul Hill [Christian terrorist* who shot that abortion doctor]? Straight to Heaven since they were good Christians who followed Christ. Nothing else matters.

Mohatma Gandhi? Off to Hell since he was an evil Sinner who did not acknowledge God.

Quote:
Arrgh! I have the worst luck with this forum!

I just spent the better part of an hour typing out a response to this thread, only to have my browser freeze up and crash when I hit the post button!

I thought I'd copied the whole thing as a safety against that possible eventuality, but it was mostly incomplete when I went to paste it.

Why does that never happen on the hundreds of short, meaningless posts I make every week, but only the ones that I spent a significant chunk of thought and time on, and that I don't have the patience to sit and try do over?!??
Tell me about it.

*Anyone else than me notice that when a Christian fanatic does something wrong, no one in the media mentions his religious background, but when a Muslim does something wrong, it's instantly "Islamic Terrorism"? I love how everyone demanded that Muslims publicly distance themselves from the London bombings they had nothing to do with. Raise a hand if, after the Oklahoma bombing, you wanted your Church leader to make a public statement about how "his Church of [name here] distanced themselves from the Christian terrorism in Oklahoma"?

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Old 08-11-2006, 05:05 PM   #187
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I'm not sure of the Christian terrorists, but I know the Muslim Extremist terrorists' religion is covered because they say that they are doing it in the name of Alah and it's a religious war.


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Old 08-11-2006, 08:32 PM   #188
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Yeah, but so did McVeigh and Paul Hill. And their supporters (Paul Hill was a minister, according to Wikipedia). If you do a Google Search for Paul Hill, there's tonnes of Christian fanaticism.

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Old 08-11-2006, 08:50 PM   #189
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Yeah, but so did McVeigh and Paul Hill. And their supporters (Paul Hill was a minister, according to Wikipedia). If you do a Google Search for Paul Hill, there's tonnes of Christian fanaticism.
Don't forget Eric Rudolph, the Christian Identity movement, the IRA, the KKK, and so on...
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Old 08-11-2006, 09:04 PM   #190
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But let's not forget that just like the Muslim extremists, those people and groups do not represent what the religion really is or is really about.


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Old 08-11-2006, 09:07 PM   #191
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But let's not forget that just like the Muslim extremists, those people and groups do not represent what the religion really is or is really about.
No one's saying they do. But I'm tired of hearing neocons say that Islam is not a religion of peace, and failing to note that the other major religions, when held to the same standards, are not religions of peace either.
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Old 08-11-2006, 09:34 PM   #192
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But let's not forget that just like the Muslim extremists, those people and groups do not represent what the religion really is or is really about.
No prob'! (+What TK-8252 said.)

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Old 08-12-2006, 01:32 AM   #193
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May I remind everyone that we are in a forum dedicated to movies and games about flying around in spaceships and muppets fighting with laser swords All these super long posts - that are as long as a chapter in any Holy Book -are more like homework than forum fun But some people feel the need I guess....

Im all for discussion, but heckling people about their beliefs and soap-box preaching is puerile and makes for bad reading.

discuss, and be respectful is all I can say

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Old 08-12-2006, 02:06 AM   #194
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Yeah, you could also be on death row and accept Jesus and go to heaven. Meanwhile, the atheist who's a Red Cross volunteer and who regularly donates to charity is the one who goes to burn in hell for eternity for refusing to believe in a fairytale.


If you refuse to believe it, then why does it concern you? If you think it is not the truth, that's perfectly fine by me. Why worry about such things, if it is one big joke? I was simply making a point that Christianity is not a "religious" thing (in the sense that it does not involve rituals and so on) and does not require a lifetime of excellency as a human being to make it into heaven, according to Christian teachings. Not to say that the Bible does not clearly encourage living a life based on morals.

It's simply a "take it or leave it" type situation.


By the way, I apologize for the length my rant in the earlier post. I had missed out on the discussion for a few days, it was close to 2 a.m....

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Old 08-12-2006, 02:17 AM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwager
I was simply making a point that Christianity is not a "religious" thing (in the sense that it does not involve rituals and so on)
What do you call baptism or having ashes rubbed on your forehead?

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Old 08-12-2006, 02:40 AM   #196
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If you refuse to believe it, then why does it concern you?
It doesn't. It really doesn't. I'm just curious as to how someone - and the vast majority of the world's population for that matter - could possibly believe such a thing.
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Old 08-12-2006, 03:08 AM   #197
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to all the devoted followers:
i came across this paradox once about God's "almightiness":

Can God create a stone which he himself cannot lift?
If he can't, he is not almighty.
If he can, he is still not almighty.

any solution for it?


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Old 08-12-2006, 03:32 AM   #198
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Quote:
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But let me ask you something. Do you acknowledge the distinction between "religion" and faith? Is it possible for someone to be a Christian and in a powerful position, and yet make decisions based on their own morals? That is the problem. Some people will use "religion" as a way to undermine someone else's efforts, for their own political agendas. "No! They can't have morals! They are basing their decisions on religious doctrine!" The fact is, putting an Aetheist in a postion of power, such a position that could make influencial decisions in our society, could make decisions that would be just as influenced by "religion" as putting a Christian up there. The fact is, some people refuse to accept people for what they believe in, and use the word "religion" to blow some situations out of proportion. Think about it. Somebody that is Aethiest and has beliefs (as all human beings do), could be just as influencial in government as a Christian with their beliefs. The only difference is, is that because their beliefs aren't "religious beliefs" (which is what some people tend to label morals), they don't get shot down for it.
I don't think an atheist would make decisions based on religion in the way you might be implying. If you mean, an atheist in some position of power might consider the needs of the religious in his/her constituency, then perhaps. But if you mean that religious dogma and cult doctrine might influence this hypothetical leader's decisions, I see no reason to believe this unless he/she is making a decision against some limiting or bigoting religious idea.

I do, however, think that the morals of the religious and non-religious intersect, correspond, and agree more often than not, but there are some very significant "morals" that are uniquely religious in their origin, including the aversion against same-sex marriage, the pretense of caring about embryonic stem cells, etc.

But as far as religion and faith go, they are two separate human constructs.

Religion is simply a social system in which adherents profess a belief in supernatural agents or or agents whose approval is desired.

Faith is simply blind trust without evidence.

All Abrahamic religions require faith. Without it, the game is up.


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Originally Posted by schwager
Because I am not "religious". I accept God's free gift and teachings for what they are, and I don't need any crazy rituals and regulations created by man, to attempt to verify those teachings further than they need to be. When you look at it, it is a "win-win" situation.
Its a waste of time when *I* look at it. But if it works for you, go for it. I won't pretend to believe you truly looked at christianity critically and logically reached your conclusions, however. In the end, you still cling to faith, that blind trust without evidence, to guide your worldview.

Atheists have beliefs, to be sure. They base these beliefs in evidence and predictable observation.


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Old 08-12-2006, 10:04 AM   #199
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http://skepticsannotatedbible.com

Fantastic site.

this made me giggle....

Genesis 1:29
God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Since many plants have evolved poisons to protect against animals that would like to eat them, God's advice is more than a little reckless. Would you tell your children to go out in the garden and eat whatever plants they encounter? Of course not. But then, you are much nicer and smarter than God.


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Old 08-12-2006, 11:27 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Darth_Terros
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com

Fantastic site.

this made me giggle....

Genesis 1:29
God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Since many plants have evolved poisons to protect against animals that would like to eat them, God's advice is more than a little reckless. Would you tell your children to go out in the garden and eat whatever plants they encounter? Of course not. But then, you are much nicer and smarter than God.
According to Christianity, plants were once free of poisons and thorns, before the Fall. And according to Christianity, they will be free of poisons and thorns once again after Jesus' second coming.

[Edited]

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