lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar

Thread: Why is the left wing supportive of partial birth abortion?
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 08-17-2006, 03:43 PM   #1
Good Sir Knight
Junior Member
 
Good Sir Knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: US
Posts: 285
Why is the left wing supportive of partial birth abortion?

Their excuse it that since the head is still in the vagina, it isn't a human being.

Hopefully you left wingers can explain that to me, Kerry didn't do a very good job.
Good Sir Knight is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-17-2006, 04:00 PM   #2
Det. Bart Lasiter
obama.png
 
Det. Bart Lasiter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: `(•.°)~
Posts: 7,997
Current Game: all
Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Why do I get the feeling you posted this just to start an argument?

At any rate, the only type of abortion I support is the type we have now, which is performed only on unborn fetuses months before the pregnant woman is due to give birth.



"No, Mama. You can bet your sweet ass and half a titty whoever put that hit on you already got the cops in their back pocket." ~Black Dynamite
Det. Bart Lasiter is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-17-2006, 04:03 PM   #3
Good Sir Knight
Junior Member
 
Good Sir Knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: US
Posts: 285
IMO it's not as bad as the Jewish Question thread.

Partial birth abortion is still practiced in the United States, I'd just like to find out how a fully grown baby isn't a human so long as it's head is still in the vagina.
Good Sir Knight is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-17-2006, 04:10 PM   #4
Det. Bart Lasiter
obama.png
 
Det. Bart Lasiter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: `(•.°)~
Posts: 7,997
Current Game: all
Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Sir Knight
IMO it's not as bad as the Jewish Question thread.

Partial birth abortion is still practiced in the United States, I'd just like to find out how a fully grown baby isn't a human so long as it's head is still in the vagina.
It's a shining example of the law having no common sense whatsoever.



"No, Mama. You can bet your sweet ass and half a titty whoever put that hit on you already got the cops in their back pocket." ~Black Dynamite
Det. Bart Lasiter is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-17-2006, 04:15 PM   #5
ET Warrior
PhD in horribleness
 
ET Warrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Evil League of Evil
Posts: 9,405
LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran 
I wasn't aware that the entire left wing supported that. I'm pretty sure I'm classified as being on the left wing and I certainly don't support partial-birth abortion.



ET Warrior is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-17-2006, 04:15 PM   #6
Good Sir Knight
Junior Member
 
Good Sir Knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: US
Posts: 285
There was a ban passed by congress and signed by the President.

It really peaved the left and now it's mired in lawsuits and court battles.

Which is why I'm asking the patrons of this forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
I'm classified as being on the left wing and I certainly don't support partial-birth abortion.
But have you done anything about it?

I've seen that the left either directly supports or does nothing about it fearing that if they join the ranks of conservatives they may be outcasts.
Good Sir Knight is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-17-2006, 04:21 PM   #7
TK-8252
Get Cloned.
 
TK-8252's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,850
I don't think anyone on this forum is supportive of partial-birth abortion. Look elsewhere...
TK-8252 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-17-2006, 04:28 PM   #8
Good Sir Knight
Junior Member
 
Good Sir Knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: US
Posts: 285
This is wholescale, state sanctioned murder in the United States.

Do you do anything about it?

I did last week.
Good Sir Knight is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-17-2006, 04:32 PM   #9
TK-8252
Get Cloned.
 
TK-8252's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,850
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Sir Knight
I did last week.
What did you do?
TK-8252 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-17-2006, 08:26 PM   #10
Dagobahn Eagle
First Strike Tester
 
Dagobahn Eagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Bergen, Norway
Posts: 3,513
Current Game: First Strike
I don't want to know.

Quote:
IMO it's not as bad as the Jewish Question thread.
You're still of the impression Nance want the Jews exterminated?

Quote:
Partial birth abortion is still practiced in the United States, I'd just like to find out how a fully grown baby isn't a human so long as it's head is still in the vagina.
I'm reading about it right now at Wikipedia (yes, I've finally adopted it), and I see nothing about partial-birth abortion being... Partial-birth abortion. You seem to be of the impression that the doctors wait until the mother is giving birth and then kill the baby when it's half-way out. Wikipedia tells a different story [my emphasis]:
Quote:
Intact D&X Surgery

Preliminary procedures are performed over a period of 2-3 days, to gradually dilate the cervix using laminaria tents, sticks of seaweed which absorb fluid and swell. Sometimes hormones such as pitocin are used to induce the process of labor. Once the cervix is sufficiently dilated, the doctor uses an ultrasound and forceps to grasp the fetus' leg. The fetus is turned to a breech position, if necessary, and the doctor pulls one or both legs out of the birth canal, causing what is referred to by some people as the 'partial birth' of the fetus. The doctor subsequently extracts the rest of the fetus, usually without the aid of forceps, leaving only the head still inside the birth canal. An incision is made at the base of the skull and a suction catheter is inserted into the cut. The brain tissue is removed which causes the skull to collapse, allowing the fetus to pass more easily through the birth canal. The placenta is removed and the uterine wall is vacuum aspirated using a suction curette.
So am I really wrong, or is this operation performed before the baby's really born?
Quote:
I wasn't aware that the entire left wing supported that.
Me neither.

Quote:
But have you done anything about it?
I, for one, didn't even know about it. And I'm busy with the Red Cross and school, and so I wouldn't have time to do anything about it, even if I was against it.


Last edited by Dagobahn Eagle; 08-20-2006 at 06:57 AM.
Dagobahn Eagle is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-17-2006, 08:32 PM   #11
Good Sir Knight
Junior Member
 
Good Sir Knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: US
Posts: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
What did you do?
There's a protest every Friday at the Abortion clinic near my work. I was repeatedly warned by the security guard for, 'Standing too close to the building'. (I was nowhere near the entrance)

But that doesn't really matter, my point is that people here seem to be more concerned with detainees in Gitmo than state sponsored infanticide.

For the record I don't oppose abortion, just late term/partial birth.

I do despise the culture around abortions though. Amazing how the left can be so ticked off at animal cruelty while treating a human fetus like a piece of feces.

I do wish people would exercise abortions under the most dire of circumstances though it's a rather pedestrian act for many people across the country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
So am I really wrong, or is this operation performed before the baby's really born?
The child is fully developed and obviously hasn't been born yet.

As you can see by the description in wikipedia, the child is pulled out by it's legs and murdered while it's head is still in the vagina.

Are you playing devils advocate or do you actually support this barbaric practice?

Oh and yes the left wing by and large supports this or is too shy to stand against it.

John Kerry was one of many Democratic senators that voted against the bill.
Good Sir Knight is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-17-2006, 08:40 PM   #12
TK-8252
Get Cloned.
 
TK-8252's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,850
I'm under the impression that partial-birth abortion is just the more commonly used term for late-term abortions... which are not even legal in the most ultra-liberal European nations.
TK-8252 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-17-2006, 08:41 PM   #13
Good Sir Knight
Junior Member
 
Good Sir Knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: US
Posts: 285
Legal in the United States for a long time and the left wing is striving to keep it that way.
Good Sir Knight is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-17-2006, 09:30 PM   #14
swphreak
My cabbages!!!
 
swphreak's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 6,510
10 year veteran! Folder extraordinaire LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran 
Good Sir Knight, there is an edit button. There is no need to double post.


In the past, I've said it's a woman's fetus, let them do whatever the heck they want to. These days, I'm more "in certain circumstances." Rape, age, ect. Abortion should not be treated as a contraceptive. And abortions should only be performed early, not in the later stages of development.


As for the actual question in the topic, I have no idea who or what this "left wing" is. I hate all this left right liberal conservative political classifications. And I'm sure not every "left wing" person supports abortions.
swphreak is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-17-2006, 09:31 PM   #15
Dagobahn Eagle
First Strike Tester
 
Dagobahn Eagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Bergen, Norway
Posts: 3,513
Current Game: First Strike
Quote:
There's a protest every Friday at the Abortion clinic near my work.
Yeah, go ahead and make the doctors more insecure and the mothers even more guilty. It has such a huge impact on the abortion "industry", too! Wonderful idea!

Quote:
I was repeatedly warned by the security guard for, 'Standing too close to the building'. (I was nowhere near the entrance)
Isn't private property a pain?

Quote:
But that doesn't really matter, my point is that people here seem to be more concerned with detainees in Gitmo than state sponsored infanticide.
Off-topic and not subject to reply.

Quote:
I do despise the culture around abortions though. Amazing how the left can be so ticked off at animal cruelty while treating a human fetus like a piece of feces.
Er, didn't you just say you don't oppose abortion?

Quote:
The fetus is fully developed (...)
Funny how it's not being born, then.

Quote:
As you can see by the description in wikipedia, the child is pulled out by it's legs and murdered while its head is still in the vagina.
Here you again seem to be under the impression that the doctors believe that "since the head's still in, it's OK, while otherwise it'd not be". Not so. They suck the brain out of the fetus's head in order for the skull to collapse and pass easier through the vaginal opening. That's why they do it while the head is still inside the mother. Not because they feel it justifies what they do. If it was easy to pull the whole baby through the vagina, they'd do it and then kill it, no sweat.

Quote:
Oh and yes the left wing by and large supports this or is too shy to stand against it.
That's a big leap from saying that "the entire left" supports it. Good change.


Last edited by Dagobahn Eagle; 08-20-2006 at 06:59 AM.
Dagobahn Eagle is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-18-2006, 07:50 AM   #16
toms
v0.9
 
toms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: uk swamp
Posts: 3,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmac7142
Why do I get the feeling you posted this just to start an argument?
Because he didn't provide any information, or links, or background and so none of us have the faintest idea what the heck we are talking about?

I'm not willing to comment unless i know what i'm talking about, but i don'thave time to go off and research what exactly they are and the reasons why they have been felt necessary.

I DID think there was a time limit on abortions in the USA.. and unless these have an "except partial birth abortions exception" I would assume that these would have to be carried out within the same time limit as normal abortions.

OR that it is an emergency procedure for if something goes wrong during birth.

But I really don't have enough information. GSK's mission, should he choose to accept it, is to provide links to 2 or more articles explaining the issue. One against it and one supporting it.

NOBODY wants abortion for abortion's sake.. so i'd have to assume that there are reasons it was considered an option.

Oh actually, hang on, I just looked through my Official Liberal Handbook and it specifically states "our goal is to kill as many children as possible, just for the fun of it, so we must all support abortion for any reason, at any time and in any manner. Failure to do so will result in your Liberal membership being withdrawn. We are currently looking into ways to make post-birth abortion a reality in the USA.". My Mistake..



Playing: Link to the Past, Astroboy, Kario Kart, Mario World (Micro) KOTOR 2: Sith Lords (Xbox) Morrowind (PC)
toms is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-18-2006, 09:07 AM   #17
Dagobahn Eagle
First Strike Tester
 
Dagobahn Eagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Bergen, Norway
Posts: 3,513
Current Game: First Strike
Quote:
Why do I get the feeling you posted this just to start an argument?
No, I think it was just as much an impulse thing. Not that he knows much about it either:
Quote:
Their excuse it that since the head is still in the vagina, it isn't a human being.
Have you ever actually heard an abortion doctor or -supporter say that?

Quote:
But I really don't have enough information. GSK's mission, should he choose to accept it, is to provide links to 2 or more articles explaining the issue. One against it and one supporting it.
Here:

Wikipedia
Abortion Facts
Natural Right to Life [Against]
Religious Tolerance [For and Against/"Explores both sides of the Issue"]

Quote:
We are currently looking into ways to make post-birth abortion a reality in the USA.
You want to know something frightening? Some people do.

It's called "utilitarian bio-ethics", and it's basically this idea that the weak should be killed rather than cared for. One of the ideas is that you don't become an actual human being before the age of one.


Last edited by Dagobahn Eagle; 08-19-2006 at 03:13 AM.
Dagobahn Eagle is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-18-2006, 10:06 AM   #18
sockerbit89
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 30
What I love about american conservatives is how they like to jump one daft bloke in the liberal party and expand on it as if that's what all left wingers think like. In that case we could just point a finger at Bush and then this whole little contest would be over.

There isn't really an american left wing party anyway. John Kerry would in Sweden probably be considered strongly right wing. And also íf you think liberals are wrong why do you then support conservatives who's actually often opposed to all what abortion stands for. This thread makes no sense.
sockerbit89 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-22-2006, 04:14 PM   #19
Good Sir Knight
Junior Member
 
Good Sir Knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: US
Posts: 285
Sure it does.

For all you lefties out there, please explain why Gitmo prisoners deserve your attention more than state sanctioned murder, right down the street.

You're so concerned about detainees...what about the truly innocent?

I don't need to explain partial-birth abortion, you know what it is now come out with it.

Why do you feel more for detainees than innocent babies?


Er, didn't you just say you don't oppose abortion

I'm not about doing away with abortion in general, just abhorent practices like partial-birth.

I do, in fact despise the pedestrian nature of which some members of society go about them.

I would never support any one I know in getting an abortion unless they really needed to. Does that mean I want to make it illegal? No, it needs to be there for the right circumstances.

People just abuse it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sockerbit
What I love about american conservatives is how they like to jump one daft bloke in the liberal party and expand on it as if that's what all left wingers think like.
Now isn't that the same type of harsh generalization you're denouncing?

I'm just wondering why Liberals turn a blind eye to it.. thats all. I've never seen a liberal speak up about partial-birth abortion...please point to one that has.
Good Sir Knight is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-22-2006, 04:55 PM   #20
toms
v0.9
 
toms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: uk swamp
Posts: 3,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Sir Knight
I don't need to explain partial-birth abortion, you know what it is now come out with it.
?????

Abortion Facts - this seems highly biased, one of those sites that pretends to be neutral but is actually just propoganda.

Guess i'll read up on it if i can find anything useful.

[edit]
Ok, now i've only been reading about it for 5 minutes, but already I can understand reasons why people MIGHT oppose a ban on it. eg:

1 - Its basically a politically charged term made up by anti-abortion advocates.

2 - It is simply one of several "late-term abortion" techniques.. and has several pros and cons over other techniques. (eg: much less invasive for the mother, therefore less risk to her)

3 - Judges in a number of states have ruled it unconstitutional.. so i guess at least some of them have some idea what they are talking about.

4 - The bill only allows medical exceptions when the life of the mother is in danger.. not for more minor medical consequences to her.

5 - Both sides view it as a stepping stone on a slippery slope.. with conservatives hoping that it is, and liberals hoping that it isn't.

6 - (me) It seems hypocritical to ban "partial birth abortion" because it seems "icky" and yet allow other methods of late term abotion. Both result in the exact same thing.. its just that one takes place in the body and the other outside.. making it somehow more emotive and upsetting.

Myself, i feel that in a sensible climate it probably wouldn't be used very often anyway, and noone would care in those rare instances where it needed to be used.. but in the ever politicised climate of amaerican abortion debate neither side is ever willing to concede the smallest ground.. because they know the other side will use it to push harder.

Personally I'm not a big fan of ANY late term abortions, unless medically necessary for the wellbeing of the mother.. but one of the problems of having a constitution is that it tends to make everything black and white - either a woman has the right to decide what goes on in her body or not.
I think that there are more shades of grey - but if i have to pick between NO abortions, or abortions INCLUDING late term ones I'd have to go for the second choice.

See.. wasn't too hard to find reasons WHY.. even if you don't have to agree with them. Try imagning thigs from another point of view..



Playing: Link to the Past, Astroboy, Kario Kart, Mario World (Micro) KOTOR 2: Sith Lords (Xbox) Morrowind (PC)

Last edited by toms; 08-22-2006 at 05:28 PM.
toms is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-22-2006, 05:01 PM   #21
Good Sir Knight
Junior Member
 
Good Sir Knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: US
Posts: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by toms
?????

Abortion Facts - this seems highly biased, one of those sites that pretends to be neutral but is actually just propoganda.

Guess i'll read up on it if i can find anything useful.

I'm not here to hand out course curriculum. If you don't know what partial-birth abortion is then I suggest you do a little research.

Liberals and the left wing are at least indifferent to this issue out of fear of being branded as pro-life.

If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem.
Good Sir Knight is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-22-2006, 05:05 PM   #22
TK-8252
Get Cloned.
 
TK-8252's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,850
Toms, partial-birth abortion is just another name for late-term abortions, I believe.

I'm gonna have to agree with GSK's post on all accounts... he makes some fair points. Late-term abortions essentially are infanticide. As bad as I see GITMO is... infanticide is the worst.

Left-wingers are not and should not be supportive of late-term abortions. In even the most ultra-liberal countries, late-term abortion is illegal. It's not "progressive" by any means.

Perhaps the reason why, on this forum, more attention is given to GITMO topics than late-term abortion topics because all people agree on this forum that late-term abortions are bad. But people disagree on issues of GITMO. There's nothing to really debate when it comes to late-term abortion. It's bad. We all know it. It's like how we aren't all posting about how bad Hezbollah is... we all know they are. But there's a disagreement on Israel's actions.
TK-8252 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-23-2006, 04:25 PM   #23
toms
v0.9
 
toms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: uk swamp
Posts: 3,490
Hey, when did I start getting grief merely for suggesting that if you start a politically charged topic you do it in a slightly less inflamatory way, and actually try and give some information so people have a clue what they heck you are trying to start an argument about??

The reason people have been talking about torture in guantanamo and the situation in palestine is because they are current issues, recieving a lot of press. As far as i know partial birth abortion (which seems to actually be a small SUBSET of late term abortion) is illegal in the US anyway, isn't a pressing issue, and is hardly a cutting edge topic.

Plus, there is a difference between the government allowing or preventing others from doing something (as they do every day) and the government ITSELF actively doing something (such as torture in guantanamo).

There are a number of reasons people defend late term abortions (as i mentioned in my edited post), some more valid than others. But considering that late term abortions make up a tiny percentage of all abortions, and then partial birth ones make up a tiny percentage of those, i'm not surprised people would rather talk about other things.

A lot of people see banning partial birth abortions as the first step towards banning ALL abortions.. and as Good Sir Knight has stated that he supports the right to an abortion I'd think he'd be a little more wary of such possible consequences.



Playing: Link to the Past, Astroboy, Kario Kart, Mario World (Micro) KOTOR 2: Sith Lords (Xbox) Morrowind (PC)
toms is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-24-2006, 06:28 AM   #24
Dagobahn Eagle
First Strike Tester
 
Dagobahn Eagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Bergen, Norway
Posts: 3,513
Current Game: First Strike
Quote:
For all you lefties out there, please explain why Gitmo prisoners deserve your attention more than state-sanctioned murder, right down the street.
As for late-term abortion, I don't really have a stance on it. However, I have to say I don't really like it. The fetus can, after all, think, remember, and so on at that stage, if I recall correctly. But yes, in medical emergencies, I say allow it.

Quote:
You're so concerned about detainees...what about the truly innocent?
Many of the detainees are truly innocent.

Quote:
As far as i know partial birth abortion
Partial-birth abortion. With a dash ("-"). Nit-picking, I know, but I just wanted to point it out.

Quote:
Perhaps the reason why, on this forum, more attention is given to GITMO topics than late-term abortion topics because all people agree on this forum that late-term abortions are bad. But people disagree on issues of GITMO.
Which is also why Guantanamo Bay is getting more attention than Red China's torture of dissenters. If I started a thread on Chinese torture, would it lead to a debate? Nope. Everyone would be 100% against it, and that'd be that. Dead topic.

Dagobahn Eagle is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-25-2006, 01:56 PM   #25
sockerbit89
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Sir Knight


Now isn't that the same type of harsh generalization you're denouncing?

I'm just wondering why Liberals turn a blind eye to it.. thats all. I've never seen a liberal speak up about partial-birth abortion...please point to one that has.

No, if that was the way you took it then i'm sorry.

What i mean when i say this thread is weird is that you make it sound as if this is a problem that can be blamed on every single leftwinger/liberal in the US when in fact it's just one political party that's made a screw up.

If what you wanted was the opinion of leftwingers (such as myself) then i can personally say i'm 100% against this and think it's horrible. Of course no one likes the idea of killing a new born baby liberal or conservative. I'm by the way seriously in doubt this is even true and maybe some sort of a mistake.
sockerbit89 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-26-2006, 11:44 AM   #26
toms
v0.9
 
toms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: uk swamp
Posts: 3,490
Lets clear a few things up.

Late term abortions are only performed in very unusual circumstances, and only make up about 1.5% of abortions.

Partial Birth Abortions only make up a tiny percentage of those abortions. And are only used when there are felt to be good reasons for doing so.

If you believe that all liberals support partial birth abortion then you have either been fed a lot of biased propoganda, or ahve a very distorted view of what a diverse group of people are really like.

If they are going to perform a late term abortion anyway.. does it really matter if it is a partial birth abortion or another form of late term abortion? Both have identical results.



Playing: Link to the Past, Astroboy, Kario Kart, Mario World (Micro) KOTOR 2: Sith Lords (Xbox) Morrowind (PC)
toms is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-29-2006, 01:23 AM   #27
Good Sir Knight
Junior Member
 
Good Sir Knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: US
Posts: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by toms
Lets clear a few things up.

Late term abortions are only performed in very unusual circumstances, and only make up about 1.5% of abortions.

Partial Birth Abortions only make up a tiny percentage of those abortions. And are only used when there are felt to be good reasons for doing so.

If you believe that all liberals support partial birth abortion then you have either been fed a lot of biased propoganda, or ahve a very distorted view of what a diverse group of people are really like.

If they are going to perform a late term abortion anyway.. does it really matter if it is a partial birth abortion or another form of late term abortion? Both have identical results.

Oh you two. Please when you list facts like that Toms, I need some sources. Surely you know that if one person is MURDERED like this then it's a tragedy enough, is there safety in numbers for you?

Secondly both of you weren't able to come up with one single Democrat/Liberal in the United States that has spoken out against this.

Plenty of Senators have spoken out about those poor Gitmo detainees and I haven't seen any peace protesters rallying outside the abortion clinics.

You, personally may find it disgusting and so I guess you have some common sense. Though your focus is on the wrong place, just like others on the left.

Surely you have or would protest the war in Iraq, why wouldn't you do something about this?

It's a question and most liberals here have either beat around the bush or accused me of generalizing. I'm not, alot of liberals have some common sense on this issue so I'm just wondering why they feel more strongly about Gitmo detainees than children taken from life when they were about to experience it.

I'm simply asking for some examples. Oh and if you voted for Kerry, he voted against the partial birth act..so voting for Kerry was effectively a vote for partial birth abortion.
Good Sir Knight is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-29-2006, 11:20 AM   #28
Dagobahn Eagle
First Strike Tester
 
Dagobahn Eagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Bergen, Norway
Posts: 3,513
Current Game: First Strike
Quote:
Surely you have or would protest the war in Iraq, why wouldn't you do something about this?
Partial-birth abortion, as far as I and toms understood it ("Late term abortions are only performed in very unusual circumstances"), is an emergency procedure only carried out when the mother's life is at risk. Would you rather that the mother went through with the birth of her kid knowing she risked dying from doing so (which'd probably kill the baby, too)?

I knew a school librarian in the US who nearly died giving birth to her third child. It didn't sound like too cozy a situation to be in before I heard that story, and it definetly does not sound like one now.

Operation Iraqi Freedom Failure, on the other hand, I'm against because it's based on lies, has cost the lives of over 100 000 people so far and ruined the lives of millions more (you know, the lucky liberated Iraqis), has a price tag that's reached into hundreds of billions of dollars, has caused anti-Americanism to reach new heights, and has created a new playground for terrorists to refine out their latest recruitment-and-terrorism methods.

It's not "relativism" to support abortion and not Guantanamo any more than it is to support Guantanamo and hate abortion. They're different things, with different factors applying to them.


Last edited by Dagobahn Eagle; 08-29-2006 at 11:33 AM.
Dagobahn Eagle is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-29-2006, 11:47 AM   #29
edlib
Close to the Edge
 
edlib's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Boston, MA., USA
Posts: 9,475
Current Game: DiRT 3; Forza 4
Hot Topic Starter 10 year veteran! Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Sir Knight
...voting for Kerry was effectively a vote for partial birth abortion.
Err... so voting for a candidate means you automatically support each and every position that candidate supports and has ever supported (rather than, in my personal view on the last election, the more qualified and reasonable choice for the job... or perhaps in this particular instance: the lesser of 2 evils?)

So then, (assuming you supported Bush last time around): You have no issues with the idea of Harriet Miers on the Supreme Court, Dubai Ports World controlling our ports, or our President's views on immigration?

Just because you vote for and support a candidate doesn't necessarily mean you are with them 100% of the way, on each and every issue. Just that you believe that they will do the job better than the other guy.


Native XWA.Netter (Nutter?)
edlib is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-29-2006, 01:22 PM   #30
toms
v0.9
 
toms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: uk swamp
Posts: 3,490
I still don't get what it is you want from me.. to be on a street corner campaigning against partial birth abortion? To NOT raise any other issues such as torture because I haven't raised this issue?



Playing: Link to the Past, Astroboy, Kario Kart, Mario World (Micro) KOTOR 2: Sith Lords (Xbox) Morrowind (PC)
toms is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-31-2006, 12:55 PM   #31
Good Sir Knight
Junior Member
 
Good Sir Knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: US
Posts: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by edlib
Err... so voting for a candidate means you automatically support each and every position that candidate supports and has ever supported (rather than, in my personal view on the last election, the more qualified and reasonable choice for the job... or perhaps in this particular instance: the lesser of 2 evils?)

So then, (assuming you supported Bush last time around): You have no issues with the idea of Harriet Miers on the Supreme Court, Dubai Ports World controlling our ports, or our President's views on immigration?

Just because you vote for and support a candidate doesn't necessarily mean you are with them 100% of the way, on each and every issue. Just that you believe that they will do the job better than the other guy.

Name one Liberal that has denounced this vile component of our medical establishment.

Just name one, this issue really makes the left squirm.

Oh and Tom, I'd be more concerned about innocent children being murdered than a bunch of detainees in an American prison.

Heck I'd worry more about political prisoners in the hands of dictatorships, not the US.... but you know that already.

Last edited by Good Sir Knight; 08-31-2006 at 01:58 PM.
Good Sir Knight is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-31-2006, 02:59 PM   #32
toms
v0.9
 
toms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: uk swamp
Posts: 3,490
You realise you really are acting like a fanatic on this issue. You don't even seem to be reading any responses.. just banging on with the same rhetoric that you have obviously picked up from some "entirely unbiased source".

Can i go with: Breaux (D-LA) ... or any of the other democrats who voted FOR the act banning it?
Quote:
The Senate cleared the final version of the bill yesterday by a 64-34 vote, with 17 Democrats voting for it and three Republicans voting against it.
I admit i don't understand the weird american legal system, but as i understand it Partial Birth Abortion is illegal in the US, and has been for a short while now.

So what you are saying is "why are no liberals jumping up and down and condemning this practice that isn't practiced??"
My guess would be that there is no need to jump up and down to condemn something that is already condemned. There is only reason to jump up and down when you need to CHANGE things.

As for why people might be worried about it:

Quote:
the legislation for "the first time in history bans a medical procedure without making any exception for the health of the woman. This is a radical, radical thing."
Quote:
Miss Saporta said, "A federal ban on safe medical procedures endangers women's health. Medical decisions must be made by medical professionals — not politicians."
Quote:
Opponents say the legislation is the first step toward banning all abortion.
Sen. Tom Harkin, Iowa Democrat, said, "I see where this is going: A couple of votes here or there in the next election, you can kiss Roe v. Wade goodbye."
Now you don't have to agree with those reasons, but they are valid reasons to oppose the bill if you do believe them.

Quote:
Oh and Tom, I'd be more concerned about innocent children being murdered than a bunch of detainees in an American prison.
You might be more concerned about preventing doctors from carrying out a rare surgical procedue, in extreme cases, when they deem it necessary for the health of the mother, than watching the USA set an example of inhumane treatment, unlawful imprisonment without trial and torture of innocent children. I'm not.
Deal with it.

Quote:
Heck I'd worry more about political prisoners in the hands of dictatorships, not the US.... but you know that already.
But how can I tell the dictatorships to stop imprisoning people without trial, in inhumane conditions and torturing them when they can just say "but the USA does it - so you have no grounds to criticise us"???



Playing: Link to the Past, Astroboy, Kario Kart, Mario World (Micro) KOTOR 2: Sith Lords (Xbox) Morrowind (PC)
toms is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-31-2006, 03:23 PM   #33
edlib
Close to the Edge
 
edlib's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Boston, MA., USA
Posts: 9,475
Current Game: DiRT 3; Forza 4
Hot Topic Starter 10 year veteran! Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Sir Knight
Name one Liberal that has denounced this vile component of our medical establishment.
Just name one, this issue really makes the left squirm.
Let me make sure I have this straight: So, in your view, we only have 2 choices on these types of issues: To either be actively denouncing and campaigning against it; or total, unconditional (albeit, in this case, tacit...) support. No degrees of moral ambiguity; no possible shades of grey...

Since I have never personally attended an anti-war rally, then that must mean (by that logic) that I completely support the War in Iraq. And,.. since I have never attended an anti-abortion rally, and have in the past supported left-wing candidates, then I'm a baby-hating monster.

Well, that was easy! While that actually makes my political position pretty difficult to pigeon-hole... that really clears things up for me, personally. Here I was, thinking the world is a complex, difficult-to-balance moral quagmire.



As soon as the Democrats (or even the Republicans for that matter...) offer up a reasonable, pro-choice candidate that has no problem doing away with this particular practice (without touching the rest,) but with whom I also see eye-to-eye with on all the other issues as well, then I'll vote for that person. In a heartbeat.

As of yet, however, (in my voting life to-date,) I haven't been offered those choices. Both sides play to the most extreme positions of thier base: total right-to-life right-wingers; or unrestricted pro-choicers.

I have found that I tend to match better with those that are the pro-choicers on the rest of the issues than those that identify themeselves as pro-lifers. This one issue just isn't a make-or-break-the-deal issue with me, I'm afraid.


Native XWA.Netter (Nutter?)

Last edited by edlib; 08-31-2006 at 03:35 PM.
edlib is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-31-2006, 04:07 PM   #34
Dagobahn Eagle
First Strike Tester
 
Dagobahn Eagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Bergen, Norway
Posts: 3,513
Current Game: First Strike
Quote:
Let me make sure I have this straight: So, in your view, we only have 2 choices on these types of issues: To either be actively denouncing and campaigning against it; or total, unconditional (albeit, in this case, tacit...) support. No degrees of moral ambiguity; no possible shades of grey...
Personally, I've got school to go to and I'm looking forward to join the Red Cross visitation service (my training course starts in November). I'm also active in a teen activity group (which is also run by the ICRC).

So even if I opposed partial-birth abortion, what the Heck was I supposed to do about it? I go to school (a 45-minute bus ride away), do homework, and volunteer for the Red Cross. I need things such as "spare time" and "sleep".

I agree that the world would be a better place if everyone who has the time did something for their community or for the ICRC, Human Rights Watch, etc., but to say that "if you're not fighting against something, you're for it or part of it" is to pull that principle out of proportion.

Dagobahn Eagle is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-01-2006, 09:03 PM   #35
toms
v0.9
 
toms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: uk swamp
Posts: 3,490
Hmm, math was never my strong point but:

Partial birth abortion = now illegal.
Number of people who would have had partial brith abortion now having late term abotion instead = all of them.
Number of babies saved from murderous rampaging doctors and liberals = none.

Still, i'm sure all those babies being aborted inside the womb instead of outside the womb are grateful for all those politicians help.



Playing: Link to the Past, Astroboy, Kario Kart, Mario World (Micro) KOTOR 2: Sith Lords (Xbox) Morrowind (PC)
toms is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-01-2006, 10:39 PM   #36
edlib
Close to the Edge
 
edlib's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Boston, MA., USA
Posts: 9,475
Current Game: DiRT 3; Forza 4
Hot Topic Starter 10 year veteran! Forum Veteran 
Are there any statistics on how often these procedures are being used as sheer birth-control rather than life-saving procedures?

Seems to me that waiting until the last trimester to get an abortion, where the procedure carries almost all the same risks as giving birth is a pretty reckless and risky way to go about things. I can't logically imagine a lot of women who are aware they have unwanted, unplanned pregnancies waiting around that 5 or 6 months to get it taken care of.


Native XWA.Netter (Nutter?)
edlib is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-02-2006, 12:19 AM   #37
Jae Onasi
Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem
 
Jae Onasi's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 10,912
Current Game: Guild Wars 2, VtMB, TOR
Alderaan News Holopics contributor Helpful! LucasCast staff Veteran Fan Fic Author 
Quote:
Originally Posted by edlib
Let me make sure I have this straight: So, in your view, we only have 2 choices on these types of issues: To either be actively denouncing and campaigning against it; or total, unconditional (albeit, in this case, tacit...) support. No degrees of moral ambiguity; no possible shades of grey...
I've had 2 kids. I work in the medical field and understand the procedure. You can't miss being pregnant after about 5 months--babies kick very nicely, thank you. The procedure itself is barbaric. I see no reason to do that procedure instead of just delivering the baby and putting the child up for adoption. There's no difference in the health risks to the mother.

A lot of us who are centrists can't stomach the procedure but also can't stomach the idea of just letting a mother flounder with the decision to carry a child to term when she's unwell, the baby's unwell, the baby's a product of rape/incest, and all those other arguments for allowing abortions late-term.

Third choice--how about finding reasonable ways to help encourage women to carry the child to term while banning this particular procedure? And not all of this has to be government help--charities could and should step in to take up some of the slack. Help with adopting out (with real legal protections for adoptive parents and making it much easier to adopt), help the mom with the baby, other alternatives I haven't thought of, etc. If we don't like this procedure, how do we identify what causes a woman to decide to do this, and how do we help address those problems/issues in an alternative way?

And in soapbox mode: Those of us who are opposed to this procedure should be putting our money where our mouths are and supporting pregnancy care centers (or other groups that help women and infants) by donating funds, materials (clothing, diapers, etc.), and/or time. I know people feel the need to organize and protest anything, and that sometimes it's the only way to get things done. However, I also think of how much time is wasted doing that instead of helping answer phones, talk to women, help out in whatever way at the pregnancy care centers. And, I'll get off the soapbox now....


From MST3K's spoof of "Hercules Unchained"--heard as Roman medic soldiers carry off an unconscious Greek Hercules on a 1950's Army green canvas stretcher: "Hi, we're IX-I-I. Did somebody dial IX-I-I?"

Read The Adventures of Jolee Bindo and see the amazing Peep Surgery
Story WIP: The Dragonfighters
My blog: Confessions of a Geeky Mom--Latest post: Security Alerts!
Love Star Trek AND gaming? Check out Lotus Fleet.

Jae Onasi is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-02-2006, 12:41 AM   #38
Emperor Devon
36 Wings, 365 Eyes
 
Emperor Devon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,479
Current Game: Ass Effect
Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
I myself am completely for abortion. I think it should be the woman's choice if she wants to expel a several pound object from between her legs. Not only does not having the child help curb overpopulation, it also solves the problem of the woman not being able to pay for her time in the hospital, and the no doubt unpleasant process of giving birth.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretooth
We will be great failures one day, you and I
Emperor Devon is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-02-2006, 05:50 AM   #39
CapNColostomy
Custom User Title
 
CapNColostomy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Across your face.
Posts: 2,497
Agreed. Also, charity for whoring it up is only not offensive to me because I find it laughable.


CapNColostomy is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-02-2006, 08:03 AM   #40
Dagobahn Eagle
First Strike Tester
 
Dagobahn Eagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Bergen, Norway
Posts: 3,513
Current Game: First Strike
Because?
She needs money, diapers, baby-food, whatever, so let's give it to her. If we were to neglect every person who in some way did something we found to be "stupid", heck, all I can say is we'd save a lot of money and effort.

And isn't "whoring it up" a slightly vulgar term?

Dagobahn Eagle is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > JediKnight Series > Community > Senate Chambers > Why is the left wing supportive of partial birth abortion?

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:26 AM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.