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Old 09-02-2006, 09:53 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
I've had 2 kids. I work in the medical field and understand the procedure. You can't miss being pregnant after about 5 months--babies kick very nicely, thank you. The procedure itself is barbaric. I see no reason to do that procedure instead of just delivering the baby and putting the child up for adoption. There's no difference in the health risks to the mother.
But at 5 months babies aren't really viable. So its not a case of just poppong them out and hey presto, problem solved. Simply delivering all the fetuses at 20-24 weeks would be immesurably cruel. The majority would die.. but they'd suffer first. The mother would have to know that somewhere in the hostpital there was a slowly dying fetus. The whole idea seems designed to inflict as much cruelty and torture on the participants as possible.

Making the mother carry the baby to full term seems fairer.. though that WOULD have increased risks for the mother.. (not even talking into account the fact that anyone considering a late term abortion is likely to have complications anyways).

I (and most here by the sound of it) actually agree that medical science has advanced, and so viability occurs sooner now, and so maybe they should consider lowering the limit. But i don't see why they need a specific law for a specific procedure.

Lower the limit for all procedures, if that is what you feel is right, don't outlaw one procedure, but allow another that has the exact same result. That is simply a publicity stunt to gain votes.

NB: Late term abortions are those taking place between 20 weeks and 24 weeks. (plus i guess a few emergency ones at later times, but that is a different matter of extreme circumstance).
Only 1.4% of abortions are late term abrtions - because anyone who decides to have an abortion is likely to have it sooner rather than later. Of those only 15% are (were) partial birth abortions.



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Old 09-02-2006, 10:34 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
You can't miss being pregnant after about 5 months--babies kick very nicely, thank you. The procedure itself is barbaric. I see no reason to do that procedure instead of just delivering the baby and putting the child up for adoption. There's no difference in the health risks to the mother.
A lot of us who are centrists can't stomach the procedure but also can't stomach the idea of just letting a mother flounder with the decision to carry a child to term when she's unwell, the baby's unwell, the baby's a product of rape/incest, and all those other arguments for allowing abortions late-term.
I'm basically with you all the way on this one, Jae. I just really didn't care for the way G.S.K. had moved to frame the debate. No situation this morally and emotionally complex can ever be summed up in a dichotomy that simplistic.

In any situation other than emergency life-saving of the mother, I'm personally opposed to abortions near, at, or past the point of viability. This particular procedure seems unnecessary since there are so rare already, and there are others that work as well. (And actually, in the interest of full self-disclosure: I'm personally opposed to all abortions... but don't feel it's politically right for me to force my moral views on anyone else who may not share that viewpoint, so I remain steadfastly pro-choice. But that's a topic that's already been explored more fully in at least one other thread...)

But I also don't imagine many of these late-term procedures are being used out of sheer selfishness on the part of the mother, either. (As with the proverbial "I have to be able to fit into my prom dress..." account.)
I imagine that a decision to abort a pregnancy that late must be a truly agonizing decision for the mother, and devastating emotionally for everyone involved, and must be for very damn good reasons if it's deemed by a physician that it must happen.

So is singling out this one procedure and making it totally illegal in every possible situation the only way to go? I don't know... Seems like the world could get by with not having it. I cannot personally support the technique, so perhaps we are better off with it banned...

But since the outlawing this one procedure is clearly seen by many as a stepping-stone to restricting or banning all abortion choices, it's hard for me to get behind the elimination of it, politically.

And therein lies the dilemma for many of us...

I sometimes truly wish I could make myself see the world in the black-and-white moral choices I often find myself presented with... I really do.


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Last edited by edlib; 09-02-2006 at 10:45 AM.
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Old 09-02-2006, 10:48 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I myself am completely for abortion. I think it should be the woman's choice if she wants to expel a several pound object from between her legs. Not only does not having the child help curb overpopulation, it also solves the problem of the woman not being able to pay for her time in the hospital, and the no doubt unpleasant process of giving birth.
Abortions are not pain free. They're done under anesthesia, and while most women go home the same day after that, some do not for a variety of reasons. They give women narcotic pain relievers after the procedure because the cramps are bad. Later term ones a woman's body is doing what it does for any birth, so there's no difference. She ends up in the hospital for a day or two either way.

This is one situation where medical science has thrown the whole abortion/right-to-life issue for a loop. Since we can now save babies born at 21 or 22 weeks (and yes, complications are much higher the earlier they're born), it seems really weird to allow partial-birth abortions through week 40. I'm suggesting alternatives should be explored more fully, especially after week 28 or so. I recognize that it's far more rare after about 20 weeks, but that's irrelevent.

Charity for screwing around? No, charity/help for those who decide carrying to term/giving the child up for adoption or deciding to raise the child is a better idea. a. People make mistakes. It only takes one time. Even the smartest and wisest make stupid mistakes sometimes. b. It takes 2 to tango. The guy's contributing to the 'whoring', isn't he? Shouldn't he either be more responsible for preventing it from happening in the first place or take more responsibility for putting the bun in the oven? But that's getting into another topic.... c. She may not have had a choice.


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Old 09-02-2006, 03:19 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Abortions are not pain free.
True. But there always is chemical abortion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Later term ones a woman's body is doing what it does for any birth, so there's no difference. She ends up in the hospital for a day or two either way.
Later term abortions do seem odd to me, since you'd think that the woman would go for the least painful type of abortion available, which is of course earlier rather than later. But we do live in a country that promises freedom and justice to all, so if women should be allowed to have abortions, they should be able to choose the date as well, even if it is a loopy one.

As someone who's had kids, Jae, you no doubt realize how unpleasant the process can be. Should something like that be subjected on a teenager? When I was in high school, a few girls got pregnant for incredibly stupid reasons, and chose to have abortions. Should a 15-year old have to go through labor and have a child? That's ten years too early at least.


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Last edited by Emperor Devon; 09-03-2006 at 12:12 AM. Reason: Confounded typos!
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Old 09-02-2006, 08:43 PM   #45
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I think that Partial Birth Abortions take several days in hospital, because they have to give the woman drugs to artificially dilate her.. so it isn't simply a quick 5 minute procedure.

In truth I suspect that are are alternatives that can be subsitiuted. However I don't liek the way the anti-abortion radicals try to use it as some sort of weapon to demonise doctors and all abortions. I also don't think its right for the government to be stepping in and telling the doctors which procedures they should use in specific cases.

Doctors are on scene, they have the facts in each individual case, and their priority is the welfare of the mother. Politicians deal in black and white generalisations and popularity contests. Therefore if a doctor feels that a PBA is the best option for a particular case then i'd assume he has his reasons.

It seems to me to be a non-issue.. drummed up for publicity and votes. And a bad precedent for the government interfering in the doctor/patient relationship. So i'm not going to fight tooth and nail to defend the procedure, but i'm also not going to join in the witchhunt against it.



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Old 09-03-2006, 12:34 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
True. But there always is chemical abortion.
It doesn't matter the means of abortion--the uterus has to contract to expel the fetus and return to its normal pre-pregnancy size. Those contractions/cramps are what hurt.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
As someone who's had kids, Jae, you no doubt realize how unpleasant the process can be. Should something like that be subjected on a teenger? When I was in high school, a few girls got pregnant for incredibly stupid reasons, and chose to have abortions. Should a 15-year old have to go through labor and have a child? That's ten years too early at least.
If she has a very late term abortion, she will experience labor--that's the only way, besides a c-section, that the baby's going to get out. The sole difference in this case is whether she births a live child or a dead one. She will have to go through contractions to dilate and push the baby out in either case.

Yes, birthing is messy. It's like running a marathon because it's long, it's hard work, and it's painful. Thank God for epidurals. However, when I got to see my babies' faces for the first time and then hold them, those days were some of the best days of my entire life.


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Old 09-03-2006, 12:39 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
It doesn't matter the means of abortion--the uterus has to contract to expel the fetus and return to its normal pre-pregnancy size. Those contractions/cramps are what hurt.
At very early stages, though, pills can be taken. Best to use those.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
If she has a very late term abortion, she will experience labor--that's the only way, besides a c-section, that the baby's going to get out. The sole difference in this case is whether she births a live child or a dead one.
It would be quite repulsice to know you expelled a hunk of dead flesh from your body.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Yes, birthing is messy. It's like running a marathon because it's long, it's hard work, and it's painful.
I would imagine so. All the less reason to impose it on such young people.

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
However, when I got to see my babies' faces for the first time and then hold them, those days were some of the best days of my entire life.
Those girls had, like most other females, wanted to have children at some point in their lives. Having one years early and by accident and then giving it away (with their families being unable and unwilling to have another child) would surely diminish such a normally wonderful memory.


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Old 09-03-2006, 01:48 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Those girls had, like most other females, wanted to have children at some point in their lives. Having one years early and by accident and then giving it away (with their families being unable and unwilling to have another child) would surely diminish such a normally wonderful memory.
I didn't say carry all of them to term, though I would prefer that option whenever possible. For purposes of this thread, I'm opposed to the very late term 'partial birth abortion' procedure.

With respect, you're making a value judgment on those girls' lives. You're assuming that having a baby and giving him/her up for adoption would be automatically bad for the girl. How do any of us know that for sure? Couldn't it be possible also that the girl realizes that giving her baby up for adoption will be a blessing to that family, and derive some happiness that way?

The 'pills'--the 'morning after pills' only work to prevent pregnancy. Once the pregnancy is started, terminating it results in the same symptoms as miscarriages or births.


From MST3K's spoof of "Hercules Unchained"--heard as Roman medic soldiers carry off an unconscious Greek Hercules on a 1950's Army green canvas stretcher: "Hi, we're IX-I-I. Did somebody dial IX-I-I?"

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Old 09-03-2006, 02:01 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
With respect, you're making a value judgment on those girls' lives. You're assuming that having a baby and giving him/her up for adoption would be automatically bad for the girl. How do any of us know that for sure? Couldn't it be possible also that the girl realizes that giving her baby up for adoption will be a blessing to that family, and derive some happiness that way?
After carrying children inside themselves for nine months and going through labor, I imagine those girls were very curious as to what happened to the children they gave away. After giving birth to a child, I imagine no one could simply give it up and forget the matter. Wouldn't you speculate to the fate of a human you gave life to and then sent off to who knows where? It doesn't strike me as something easy.

Most adults would derive pleasure from knowing they'd just given a childless couple (or person) a baby, but since their levels of wisdom and intellect rivaled those of 13-year olds, I don't think that realization would be as gratifying to them as it would be to other people.


Quote:
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