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Old 08-17-2006, 04:34 PM   #1
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Court ruled what we already know - warrantless wiretapping is unconstitutional.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/...uit/index.html
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Old 08-17-2006, 08:13 PM   #2
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It's seemed for a while that "the second McCarthy era" is faltering. People are starting to realize just what Bush is doing to their great nation. It's good to see it.

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Old 08-17-2006, 09:37 PM   #3
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Read about that a few hours ago. It's good to hear.


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Old 08-17-2006, 09:49 PM   #4
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A "landmark victory" indeed. Now let's hope it gets all the way through.

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Old 08-18-2006, 12:03 AM   #5
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So0 no more spying by the NSA then. Makes the job to catch terrorists harder but if it makes Americans sleep easier at night...
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Old 08-18-2006, 12:07 AM   #6
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She declared that the program "violates the separation of powers doctrine, the Administrative Procedures Act, the First and Fourth amendments to the United States Constitution, the FISA and Title III."

Her ruling went on to say that "the president of the United States ... has undisputedly violated the Fourth in failing to procure judicial orders."

The lawsuit, filed January 17 by civil rights organizations, lawyers, journalists and educators, "challenges the constitutionality of a secret government program to intercept vast quantities of the international telephone and Internet communications of innocent Americans without court approval."
Good show. Score one for civil liberties.

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Old 08-18-2006, 12:18 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
So0 no more spying by the NSA then. Makes the job to catch terrorists harder but if it makes Americans sleep easier at night...
Except that's not what this ruling does in the slightest.

NSA can still wiretap suspected terrorists. Which I encourage.

They just have to do it legally.
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Old 08-18-2006, 12:28 AM   #8
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That's one of the biggest problems with the whole issue, as it's not unreasonable to say that this has been going on for years, and in doing so they have snapped up terrorists. Certainly I can understand where people are coming from, especially as the majority of them fear the athorities, distrust the government and hate Bush more than they do the terrorists. But I remember a case where the FBI was denied permission by the courts to wiretap a suspect, they did it anyway and got information on stolen weapons to be sold to terrorists, which the FBI couldn't use. That's crazy.
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Old 08-18-2006, 01:54 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
That's one of the biggest problems with the whole issue, as it's not unreasonable to say that this has been going on for years, and in doing so they have snapped up terrorists. Certainly I can understand where people are coming from, especially as the majority of them fear the athorities, distrust the government and hate Bush more than they do the terrorists. But I remember a case where the FBI was denied permission by the courts to wiretap a suspect, they did it anyway and got information on stolen weapons to be sold to terrorists, which the FBI couldn't use. That's crazy.
I'm unsure of how this has an effect on the ability to wiretap the all the terrorists that the government wants... They simply have to go through FISA. Notably, FISA has only not allowed about 4 wiretaps out of something like 10,000 (I don't remember the exact numbers, however). It's probably a pretty safe bet that they will be able to obtain the warrants they need.

The instance you talk about, with the information not being able to be used, is EXACTLY what I want to see happen. When the FBI exceeds their authority it means they are not working in the interests of the citizens whom they are supposed to be protecting, as those citizens set (via proxy) the guidelines within which the FBI must function. If they are not working in the interests of the citizens, just who are they working for?

And yes, we should be wary of the government (though not paranoid). Terrorists can't blow up 'liberty', they can't kill 'the pursuit of happiness'. The only people who can destroy the ideals of American society is ourselves.


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Old 08-18-2006, 01:55 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
And yes, we should be wary of the government (though not paranoid). Terrorists can't blow up 'liberty', they can't kill 'the pursuit of happiness'. The only people who can destroy the ideals of American society is ourselves.
Amen, sir.
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Old 08-18-2006, 02:07 AM   #11
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So, you want terrorists to be able to get off on weapons smuggling charges even there is conclusive evidence of their involvement?
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Old 08-18-2006, 02:08 AM   #12
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So, you want terrorists to be able to get off on weapons smuggling charges even there is conclusive evidence of their involvement?
I've never even heard of that story. When was this??

It sounds like something that could happen... a worst case scenario. But that's the cost I guess when you don't live in an authoritarian state.
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Old 08-18-2006, 02:12 AM   #13
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Makes the job to catch terrorists harder but if it makes Americans sleep easier at night...
I don't think it'll be that much harder.


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Old 08-18-2006, 02:17 AM   #14
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What they need is more funding to the Dept. of Homeland Security.
First they need to GET RID OF the joke that is the Department of Homeland Security. Along with 2/3 of the rest of the massive bureaucracies that exist in the central government.

Then the government can actually get something done, instead of just expecting the rest of the bureaucrats to do something and then blaming eachother when something happens. FEMA anyone?

And stopping the ****ing around in Iraq and the rest of the Middle East would help.
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Old 08-18-2006, 02:36 AM   #15
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Yeah, I removed the funding part when I realized I had no idea of what I was talking about. Not in time, though, apparently.

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Old 08-18-2006, 03:33 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
I've never even heard of that story. When was this??
It occured some twelve years ago, about the time of Waco. No it was later than that. Not sure of how accurate it is, something a little bird told me.

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It sounds like something that could happen... a worst case scenario. But that's the cost I guess when you don't live in an authoritarian state.
Yeah, that's the thing. By rights the good guys have to play by the rules. The bad guys are pretty much expected not to.
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Old 08-18-2006, 03:40 AM   #17
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It occured some twelve years ago, about the time of Waco. No it was later than that. Not sure of how accurate it is, something a little bird told me.



Yeah, that's the thing. By rights the good guys have to play by the rules. The bad guys are pretty much expected not to.
Chances are that if there's a real al-Qaeda plot suspected, the FISA court is going to issue a warrant no problem. Twelve years ago we weren't under threat from international terrorism, so getting off when the FBI screws up isn't likely. We do live in a... if I may borrow from the official neocon terminology... post-9/11 world.
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Old 08-18-2006, 03:43 AM   #18
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I think post Iraq world is perhaps a better term. In a post September 11 world everyone was all for going after terrorism. Iraq in a lot of ways had wrecked that and the target is less terrorism in the minds of a lot of people and more Bush and America.
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Old 08-18-2006, 08:42 AM   #19
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Its alwys strange to me how much 9/11 has altered the mindset of the american people. Terrorism isnt new. Its been around for centuries. All the other major powers have experienced it in some way or another numerous times.. even the US has experienced it with Timothy McVey and a number of incidents abroad.

Its been know for centuries tha you can't have a FREE society that is also a SECURE society.. you have to choose one or the other. Or some sort of balance.. which you could then argue is neither. Hence the saying "the price of freedom". People used to be willing to pay the price of freedom.. now they are more concerned about security and tv.

Iran has very high security. Almost no trouble at all. No pesky terrorists or trouble makers. Not much crime either. The secret police cleared all that right up.
Now the only people committing crimes are the secret police.. but thats because they have been given unlimited power to carry out their duties without the pesky interference of things like due process and oversight.

If evidence that was obtained illegally was allowed in court, then why wouldn't people commit illegal acts to get the evidence? They'd just wiretap everyone and then worry about the consequences later.



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Old 08-18-2006, 09:11 AM   #20
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It's always strange to me how much 9/11 has altered the mindset of the American people.
All large-scale attacks such as 9/11 alter mindsets. Nothing strange about it.

What's strange - and scary - to me is how the neo-cons seem to accept everything their masters and allies do. Torture is wrong until America does it, then suddenly it's not only OK, but a fundamental part of keeping the country safe. Killing civilians is wrong, until US's best friend Israel does it, then it's suddenly the victim's fault she's getting killed.

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Old 08-18-2006, 09:22 AM   #21
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After the implication that Lonna Vash was tortured to death I've gone against torture as well, but you're right. I was one of those neo cons who, if such tactics would work to gain information from a terrorist, then bring it on. Nothing like the **** pulled in Abu Gharib but if it meant saving innocent lives **** whatever rights terrorists may have.
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Old 08-19-2006, 03:27 AM   #22
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You know this really enrages me.

This wiretapping is another example of Bush and his republician allies atempt to grap absolute power in the U.S. goverment.

The same simlar thing as Hitler did in Germany.

He is trying to make it as he and his allies are always right and never ever wrong.

I been trying to tell you people that if people keep supporting this f**ker; then there is going to be hell to pay.
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Old 08-22-2006, 02:53 PM   #23
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Well, a better case of judge-shopping I've never seen...leave it to the ACLU and CAIR to find some liberal wacko Carter-appointed judge who they knew would rule just the way they wanted.

I read the opinion...the decision stands on shaky ground, to say the least.

In reality, anyway, this decision means nothing; it will be appealed, and very likely will be overturned.


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Old 08-22-2006, 03:28 PM   #24
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Well, a better case of judge-shopping I've never seen...leave it to the ACLU and CAIR to find some liberal wacko Carter-appointed judge who they knew would rule just the way they wanted.
Yup... only a liberal wacko could possibly stand for the Constitution.

This ruling was not liberal at all. Seems more like a conservative (note: not neoconservative) ruling to me. Big government = bad.

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In reality, anyway, this decision means nothing; it will be appealed, and very likely will be overturned.
Sadly, you're right about that. It's what happens when all three branches of government are controlled by a single political party.
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Old 08-23-2006, 08:18 AM   #25
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Yup... only a liberal wacko could possibly stand for the Constitution.
Right. It's not like the neo-cons piss their pants out of fury every time somone dares as much as think about interpreting their 2nd Amendment any other way than they do.

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Old 08-23-2006, 08:32 AM   #26
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I think I pee'd a little just reading that. Please leave the Second Amendment alone, sir.


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Old 09-16-2006, 01:42 PM   #27
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Cap, change your panties. rccar, care to explain what's so "shaky ground" about the reasoning.

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Old 09-16-2006, 02:50 PM   #28
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I think the US has been a little too nutsoid on protecting criminals' rights at the expense of victims' rights or stopping criminal activity--other countries are a lot more strict, and in some cases overly strict, but I think we're a bit too liberal. I don't want to change it much, just tweak it a bit to give it more balance.
Here's what I'd like to see--a court or legislature-determined set of protocols that must be followed for it to be legal, or a 24 hour on-call judge to give an emergency ruling in order to wiretap. With technology moving so fast, waiting a day or 2 to get a judge's ruling is too long for certain things. I hate it when overwhelming evidence of obvious criminal activity is thrown out on a miniscule technicality. I understand why we have to protect rights, but I hate seeing criminals get away with crimes because some rookie cop forgot to cross one 't' on 40 pages of documents.
I want us to find a good way to protect rights but keep up with the rapidly changing technology. The police need to have the ability to pursue criminals quickly by using the latest techniques, but they need to do it without abusing their powers. The laws need to catch up with our technology, too, though it's hard to keep up with everything changing so fast.


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Old 09-16-2006, 06:13 PM   #29
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I agree. From a university law course I learned that the law is designed to protect the criminal, in so far as in court for example the odds are very much stacked in the defence's favor. This is even more true for minority groups and the young, whenever they are brought up on charges the toothlessness of the law is made crystal clear. That's not to say we should have something stupid like some of Asia's justice system's, some type of Red Corner deal, but anyone who does not see flaws in the law as we have it today are wearing blinders.
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Old 09-16-2006, 06:21 PM   #30
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So0 no more spying by the NSA then. Makes the job to catch terrorists harder but if it makes Americans sleep easier at night...
As far as the public is concerned.



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Old 09-16-2006, 06:45 PM   #31
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Yeah, well, the government's a much bigger threat than terrorists, hey?
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Old 09-16-2006, 07:31 PM   #32
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I agree. From a university law course I learned that the law is designed to protect the criminal, in so far as in court for example the odds are very much stacked in the defence's favor.
Even from what little I know, I could go on and on about how hard it is to get a rapist jailed, what total *******s the lawyers on defence can be, and how things that should work in favour of you can end up working against you. The cops and the "justice" system is just so f***ed up in so many ways (in Norway, at least - I'm sure the US, even with its Gitmo abuse and whatnot, is civilized enough not to have a law saying that rape is only punishable if the victim offers physical resistance).

I've got five friends who've gotten raped. I could be completely wrong, but I have this nasty feeling I'm not. I've learned a couple of things, to put it that way.

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Old 09-16-2006, 08:21 PM   #33
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Yeah, well, the government's a much bigger threat than terrorists, hey?
I think they are two different evils. Terrorists are out to kill without discrimination. Governments are out to quietly gain control.

Which one is worse, the enemy you do see coming, or the one you don't see coming?



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Old 09-16-2006, 08:43 PM   #34
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I guess we all saw the hijackings and suicide bombings coming on September 11.

Without being smart, I can see the sort of things that Star Wars, V for Vendetta, ect warns against. The types of governments portrayed here cannot be expected to work for the people and are the sort of thing that should not under any circumstances be tolerated. With that said, America and the West are very liberal when compared to the former Soviet Union or communist China, and where Iraq could be seen as America overstepping it's bounds, call me crazy but while there are terrorist groups plotting the murder of innocent people there are little if any lengths I will not accept in order to stop them. That goes for anyone, not just America. If the peace movement had a way that would guarentee the safety and freedom of those terrorists targets and it did not call for war or spying I'm all for it. Remove forces from Iraq is one idea, a good one in my view, but terrorists will still be just as active regardless of what we do. Iraq had only given them a legitimate reason.
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Old 09-16-2006, 08:47 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
I guess we all saw the hijackings and suicide bombings coming on September 11.

Without being smart, I can see the sort of things that Star Wars, V for Vendetta, ect warns against. The types of governments portrayed here cannot be expected to work for the people and are the sort of thing that should not under any circumstances be tolerated. With that said, America and the West are very liberal when compared to the former Soviet Union or communist China, and where Iraq could be seen as America overstepping it's bounds, call me crazy but while there are terrorist groups plotting the murder of innocent people there are little if any lengths I will not accept in order to stop them. That goes for anyone, not just America. If the peace movement had a way that would guarentee the safety and freedom of those terrorists targets and it did not call for war or spying I'm all for it. Remove forces from Iraq is one idea, a good one in my view, but terrorists will still be just as active regardless of what we do. Iraq had only given them a legitimate reason.
You can't very well speak for the majority of people though. Most Americans are against having their privacy invaded, and the government's job is to exercise and/or enforce the will of the people.



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Old 09-16-2006, 08:51 PM   #36
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You can't very well speak for the majority of people though. Most Americans are against having their privacy invaded, and the government's job is to exercise and/or enforce the will of the people.
Yes. That is true. The problem we have is to get our government to respond to the will of the people and not to the will of money.



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Old 09-16-2006, 08:56 PM   #37
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Since when has the government done that?

Seriously, most Americans wouldn't like to have their privacy invaded, and fair enough, they shouldn't. Most Americans however are not criminals or terrorists, and it would be for that not even one percent that the survailence is conducted on. I'm certain all Americans would want to be kept safe from terrorism, unless they genuinely believe that America is the true threat are are willing to ally themselves with Al Qaeda to bring it down. No, I thought not. My point is by tying the hands of law enforcement as much as some people would want it would make the task of finding out and acting on terrorist plots very difficult if not impossible.

Allow me to paint a picture for you. There's going to be a nuclear attack, you have a terrorist who said he knows how it will take place but he's not talking. How far will you go to get that information? Or will you sacrifice the millions of lives the attack would take and uphold the terrorist's 'rights', such as they are?
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Old 09-16-2006, 09:01 PM   #38
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Since when has the government done that?

Seriously, most Americans wouldn't like to have their privacy invaded, and fair enough, they shouldn't. Most Americans however are not criminals or terrorists, and it would be for that not even one percent that the survailence is conducted on. I'm certain all Americans would want to be kept safe from terrorism, unless they genuinely believe that America is the true threat are are willing to ally themselves with Al Qaeda to bring it down. No, I thought not. My point is by tying the hands of law enforcement as much as some people would want it would make the task of finding out and acting on terrorist plots very difficult if not impossible.

Allow me to paint a picture for you. There's going to be a nuclear attack, you have a terrorist who said he knows how it will take place but he's not talking. How far will you go to get that information? Or will you sacrifice the millions of lives the attack would take and uphold the terrorist's 'rights', such as they are?
I hate 24. This thread isn't about the rights of terrorists though, it's about the rights of the average American.



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Old 09-16-2006, 09:03 PM   #39
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Like the rights the people in the Twin Towers had? Or the Pentagon? How about Flight 93?
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Old 09-16-2006, 09:09 PM   #40
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Like the rights the people in the Twin Towers had? Or the Pentagon? How about Flight 93?
Uhh, that's why we're killing terrorists.



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