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Old 09-17-2006, 12:18 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
I am, however, saying that radical Christianity is hardly much better when you look at what the good god-fearing Christians are doing in say, Africa.
How by chance does that pittling militia compare to what's going on in Sudan?

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Originally Posted by Nancy AllenOkay
Islam is used as a shield by Middle Eastern terrorists to legitimise their acts of mass murder.
But is it? That ideology comes from somewhere and it does in fact come from the Koran. Which hasn't changed at all since the 17th century, during a time when Christianity was as bad or worse than Muslims.


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Originally Posted by Nancy AllenOkay
IRA tangos are equally guilty of doing this, except they hide behind Christiananity, not Islam.
This would assert that terrorist groups kill for the simple love of killing. There is a distinction between religious extremists who kill people and serial killers like Ted Bundy.

One must look and read into the Koran to discover the many different interpretations, interestingly severe misogyny is pretty clear cut.


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Originally Posted by Nancy AllenOkay
There is nothing wrong with the religion that cannot be solved by dealing with those who abuse it.
I disagree, as you can see Islamic terrorists are caught and prosecuted even in most Muslim countries. Your point would assert that by bombs, bullets and imprisonment....Islamic radicalism/oppression would go away.

Islam is more than a belief, it's a culture, it's a movement. It spreads, multiplies quickly and seeps into institutions and governments. It should mostly stay in the middle east IMO as it flourishes in Liberal democracy while eroding those liberal principles in the name of multi-culturalism.

Do you want sharia in your neighborhood?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4215182.stm

If you happen to be raped you'll need four witnesses or you will be charged with adultery and punished of course for disobeying 'almighty Allah'. Apparently he's 'oh so merciful'.

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Last edited by Good Sir Knight; 09-17-2006 at 12:31 AM.
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Old 09-17-2006, 12:27 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Good Sir Knight
But is it? That ideologey comes from somewhere and it does in fact come from the Koran. Which hasn't changed at all since the 17th century, during a time when Christianity was as bad or worse than Muslims.
Interestingly enough, in the 17th century Europe and the Middle East were largely at equal economical strength. In the 20th century, the Christian West blossomed into a industrial and cultural superpower; the Middle East not so much. Coincidentily, there are far more political and religious freedoms in the West and less so in the East. Therefore, I would imagine that most of the strife resulting from Africa and the Middle East are due not to Islam, but instead to the relative hellhole they live in as a result of poor luck. Islam is merely an escape for them, like Christianity was in the 17th century and before.



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Old 09-17-2006, 12:28 AM   #43
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The word of the Koran is twisted around, warped, and taken in the utmost litrial sense with no thought in what is sensationalism in order to make it look as if their God is commanding their actions. I don't have a Islamic example to give you so I will give a Christian one: The Bible says to cut off the arm that sins, gouge out the eye that sins. Not one church or Christian I know of puts this into practice, as it is quite obvious this is using a laser to open a beer can.

It's true that some terrorists kill for the love of killing. However, most of them do so for reasons other than firm religious beliefs. For Islamic terrorists it could be genuine protest for Iraq, military bases on their land or opposition to how people live in the West. It's similar for the IRA, many of them were fighting in their minds to break away from England, to take back Ireland by force, rather than Christian beliefs.
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Old 09-17-2006, 07:31 AM   #44
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Why must we bring up Christianity when someone criticizes Islam?
To remind you that your own mythology is just as bad?

There's a Norwegian saying that goes "Clean before your own door before you clean before others'".

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I love it how there is this knee jerk reaction on the left that naively marry's the two religions together.
Maybe if I understood what you meant I'd be able to reply to that.

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Are there more Muslims blowing up innocents in the name of Islam or more Christians blowing up innocents in the name of Christianity?
Do you mean right now, or throughout history?

I think Christianity has a good deal more crimes in its history than Islam.

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This would assert that terrorist groups kill for the simple love of killing.
You're joking, right?

So the only two reasons to be a terrorist is a. Love of violence and b. Religion? So if you're not doing it because of religion, then you're doing it "for the simple love of killing?"

There can't be, say, politics involved?

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Old 09-17-2006, 01:58 PM   #45
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The reason for mentioning christianity (or extreme hinduism, or any other religion really) is that I simply don't believe there is anything fundamentally different about Islam to any other religion.

Saying that Islam is in some way destined to be more violent and more fascistic than other religions seems flse to me. If you look at the ancient books of most religions they are just as mysogynistic, radical, cruel etc.. as the Qur'an.

Its true that right now the islam religion seems to be spawning more violent radicals than other religions. But at various times, and in various places, all religions have spawned violent radicals willing to kill for their faith.

So why is islam spawning so many extremists now? I'd say there are a few reasons.

1) If you look at most of the violent groups from all religions they tend to come from the poorest and most downtrodden nations. Hindu extremists in india, Lords resistance Army and a lot of others in africa, Most of the nations in the middle east, etc.

The other common factor in religious extremism seems to be oppression of a people (such as in afganistan, or northern ireland, or saudi arabia).

So when a people are downtrodden, starving or opressed they tend to turn to extreme ideas that they hope will save them. There are always people willing to exploit tht, whether they be islamic fundamentalists, christian cult leaders, kkk clan leaders, or whatever.

2) Israel. Boy i hate to bring it up, cos it always radicalises and kills any thread.. but its a major catalyst in all of this. It adds to a sense of injustice, it gives the extremists an enemy to point at, it demonstrates the US's bias.. it just causes so many problems on so many levels. Heck, the mere mention of it on these boards tends to turn most people into radical extremists.

3) Saudi Arabia. 40 or 50 years ago most mulsims were pretty moderate. Since then the Saudi royal family has spent billions exporting THEIR extremely intollerant sect of islam. Almost all mosques and religious schools around the world get some funding from the saudi royal family... on the condition they use saudi approved transaltions of the qur'an.. which are much less tollerant than the older versions.

Its clear from the evidence that all religions are capable of the extremist violence that al quaida currently employ. What is needed is a catalyst, and the right conditions to trigger it. It just happens that right now that catalyst exists for the islamic peoples a lot more than it does for the christan peoples.

(NB: The internal wars among different sects in christianity alone killed 4-5million people in the middle ages in europe. That was when the conditions were right for those peoples to be provoked into violence).



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Old 09-17-2006, 03:37 PM   #46
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I'm sorry if this may seem a rude or 'flaming' post, but the OP is very ignorant.

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Old 09-19-2006, 11:02 AM   #47
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The reason for mentioning christianity (or extreme hinduism, or any other religion really) is that I simply don't believe there is anything fundamentally different about Islam to any other religion.

Saying that Islam is in some way destined to be more violent and more fascistic than other religions seems flse to me. If you look at the ancient books of most religions they are just as mysogynistic, radical, cruel etc.. as the Qur'an.
I have to say that was an exceptionally good way to sum up two pages of replies.

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If you happen to be raped you'll need four witnesses or you will be charged with adultery and punished of course for disobeying 'almighty Allah'. Apparently he's 'oh so merciful'.
Oh, but he is. The very fact that the condemned are in Hell rather than in a much worse place, when they have no rights whatsoever concerning post-mortem treatment, is a testament to Allah's mercy. Consider that he could've lined the infidels up and shot them dead.

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Old 09-19-2006, 06:12 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Maxstate
I'm sorry if this may seem a rude or 'flaming' post, but the OP is very ignorant.
You find that? I find that he can dish it out but can't take it, and yes that might be sledging him but this applies to anyone. You can't be controversial and have a glass jaw, it just doesn't work.
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Old 09-20-2006, 02:20 PM   #49
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While I consider Islam to be fundamentally similar to all religions, I am willing to concede that, at the moment and on balance, it does seem less reformed than many of the other religions.

However what gets me confused is that all the people who make the most fuss about islamic law, islamic states and islam being unreformed are the ones who want to promote christian law, christian states and "traditional christian values".
(Eg: They want everyone to get married. they don't like homosexuals either, they don't beleive in the advances in science like evolution, they want religin taught in schools, etc..)

And I'd argue that Islam HAS been as reformed as christianity, if not more so, at numerous points in history. The fact it has recently become more traditional, isolationist and extreme is as a result of two things. (1) Saudi influence. (2) The effects of american foreign policy.

hopefully our muslim brothers can shrug off these effects and go back to being leaders in medicine, science, literature and other fields.



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Old 09-21-2006, 04:23 AM   #50
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Not to fan the flames here or anything, but correct me if I'm wrong, didn't the Taliban admit that Osama bin Laden was actually in their jurisdiction, but refused to turn him over to Western authorities? (claiming instead that they would expedite him to a Muslim nation to be tried under an Islamic court?)

I agree, we didn't have justification to go to Iraq (not based on 9/11 or WMD anyway), but it seems that the alleged mastermind of the WTC attacks was in fact within the hands of the Taliban government at the time before we invaded them, and we let him slip through our fingers (presumably he fled either during the negotiations or immediately after, and before the attack).


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Old 09-21-2006, 04:26 AM   #51
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If you remember Palestine were celebrating the attacks, so the blame might have initially been laid on them which may have been the cause of the confusion, with shipping out Bin Laden and the like.
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Old 09-21-2006, 05:24 AM   #52
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But we didn't attack "Palestine" over Bin Laden did we?

Sorry if I missed the connection. I thought the Afgahnistan connection was precisely because the Taliban CLAIMED to have Osama Bin Laden, and offered to turn him over but only under certain conditions, and since we (the United States) refused to accept those conditions, we invaded, and Bin Laden got away (nobody really knew where, but it was never claimed that we should go to war with Iraq because Osama was obviously hiding there... rather we claimed that Saddam had designs against the United States and her allies in his building of "weapons of mass destruction" and had "ties to Al Qaeda").

According to News reports, we actually engaged in combat with "Al Qaeda gurreillas" in Afgahnistan.

Anyway, it seems that we knew Osama was in Afgahnistan. We didn't know or ever claim that he was in Iraq. Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

And just before anyone jumps to any conclusions (as I take leave of the forums for awhile to do my real work that I keep putting off!), I was against the invasion of Afgahnistan as well (even though I was not sad to see the Taliban go, I didn't feel we really improved things much over there, and some of my friends were put in harm's way thanks to that failed war even though I didn't know it at the time)... I would have been in favor of diplomacy and/or special forces rooting out Bin Laden in that case. But I think we had far more initial justification for going to war with Afgahnistan than with Iraq.


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Old 09-21-2006, 05:38 AM   #53
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To cover your points to the best of my knowledge:

No, America did not invade Palestine because of September 11. Palestinions were show celebrating the attacks right after they took place, before Bin Laden claimed responsibility on his video tapes. Bin Laden, as everyone knows, was the leader of the Taliban, who ruled Afghanistan and had allied themselves with the terrorist network Al Qaeda.

How did Bin Laden escape? Well popular theory had him cornered by British forces but Bush wanted America to be the ones to capture him. He had been placed at the Khyber Pass and along the Pakistani boarder, and for all we know he could be in American custady awaiting the right time for his capture to become public, when it would benefit Bush the most. Okay, that isn't going to happen, but the point is your guess as to where Bin Laden is really would be as good as mine.

A connection between Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein was made to bolster support for war in Iraq. This claim was iffy at best, to the best of my knowledge the most it came to was Al Qaeda getting information from the Iraqi military rather than any such alliance.

As for justification to go to war, with every expert saying that the way it's been done is outdated and war the likes of which we've seen in Afghanistan and Iraq it should have been done diffirently. A classic example is American forces fighting war the traditional way only to be slaughtered by the Insurgents who use gurilla tactics and are much more suited to being fought against with special operations groups who have been trained to fight this way, rather than the grunts who storm in like it's Omaha all over again.
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Old 09-21-2006, 06:05 AM   #54
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I told myself I wouldn't respond again tonight, but I couldn't help myself.

Forgive me... anyway.

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Bin Laden, as everyone knows, was the leader of the Taliban, who ruled Afghanistan and had allied themselves with the terrorist network Al Qaeda.
Was this sarcasm? Bin Laden was a Saudi Arab. He had no known position in the Taliban government. Rather it was acknowledge that the Taliban government supported Al Qaeda in their country, if in nothing else, than sheltering them (as they did with Bin Laden... otherwise why pretend you have the power to hand him over but choose not to because the proper conditions are not met, instead of just giving him over or saying you don't even have him).

A lot of theories were put forth as to where Osama was really (some placed him in Ethiopia, leading people to speculate that the movie "Blackhawk Down" was created as propaganda to get people to support a planned war in Ethiopia under the guise of the "war on terror"). A lot of conspiracies theories existed that Osama was still a US agent, or that he was already dead, and you still have people questioning every video of him that comes out (it's just a look-alike!, etc).

My point is, while Osama was an Al Qaeda leader, not a Taliban leader, he was associated with them in a very tangible way, and thus that war in Afgahnistan had a far better claim to the "War on Terror" and 9/11 than the Iraqi war ever did. Thus we'd be wrong to equate the two as somehow identical (except in that they've both been failures in achieving our alleged goals there).


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Old 09-21-2006, 06:28 AM   #55
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Uh, no, it wasn't sarcasm. I'll just double check my facts, he was in fact one of the founders of Al Qaeda and demanded that Muslims indiscriminatly kill Westerners and their currupt Eastern allies, citing military bases on their land as the cause like I said in another thread (from Wikipedia). Also...

"On May 20, 1997, brother Generals Abdul Malik Pahlawan and Mohammed Pahlawan mutinied from under Uzbek warlord Rashid Dostum's command and formed an alliance with the Taliban. Three days later, Dostum abandoned much of his army and fled from his base in Mazar-i Sharif into Uzbekistan. On May 25, Taliban forces, along with those of the mutinous generals, entered the undefended Mazar-i Sharif. That same day, Pakistan recognized the Taliban as the government of Afghanistan, followed by recognition from Saudi Arabia the following day."

Also from Wiki. Yep, Bin Laden was Saudi, I don't believe that was brought up before.
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Old 09-21-2006, 10:49 PM   #56
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You claimed that Osama Bin Laden was the "leader of the Taliban."

Even wiki doesn't seem to back up that claim....


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Old 09-21-2006, 10:58 PM   #57
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Why'd I say that? Anyway he's involved with the Taliban, no question. The actual leader is Mullah Omar.
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Old 09-22-2006, 07:46 AM   #58
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I dunno, I was just correcting.


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Old 09-22-2006, 08:06 AM   #59
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Well here's another fact that needs correcting: Bin Laden taking credit for the attacks. Wouldn't that contradict every September 11 conspiracy theory under the sun?
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Old 09-22-2006, 08:11 AM   #60
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Hardly. You just claim that Bin Laden was a CIA stooge reading off a script or something.

Or that the tapes of him saying that were faked (by the government to pin the blame on him instead of the real masterminds).


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Old 09-22-2006, 08:17 AM   #61
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Hey, don't put the idea in their heads.

It's asinine that people are so willing to jump to his defense, far and above Bush.
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Old 09-22-2006, 12:51 PM   #62
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What does Osama's almost total lack of involvement with the taliban have to do with this thread?



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Old 09-22-2006, 12:57 PM   #63
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Hey, don't put the idea in their heads.
Sigh. Too late.

Anti-invasion-of-Afghanistan protesters and conspiracy theorists have been deeming it a forgery since day one.
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You claimed that Osama Bin Laden was the "leader of the Taliban."
Bah, so did I (thought admittedly not here).
Turns out I don't know everything after all. Oh well.


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Old 09-22-2006, 06:50 PM   #64
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What does Osama's almost total lack of involvement with the taliban have to do with this thread?
Aside from him taking credit for September 11 and issuing more threats from the Taliban and Al Qaeda? This is one example of an Islamic facist, someone who preaches intolerance and Jihad. You know why they don't want military bases on their land? Because it would interfere with their crusade against the entire world. This isn't mine but it's worth sharing.

America, allies with America, with Iraq, against terrorism, western countries, Al Qaeda want you dead because they hate the west. We saw that with September 11, with Bali since Jimaar Islamiah is an ally of Al Qaeda, Spain, London, Indonesia again. Christians, they want you dead because you do not follow Islam, we saw that with the terrorist attacks I just mentioned. Israel, they want you dead because you are an example of the west working, they are meant to be a supporter of terrorist attacks against Israel and have said of their condemnation of Israel. Jews, Al Qaeda want you dead for the same reason they want Christians dead, when you look at Palestine you see Al Qaeda celebrating every Jew killed. Eastern countries, they want you dead because you are not Muslim, we saw that with Bali and you could make a case with Eqypt, Iraq and Saudi Arabia. Muslims, Al Qaeda want you dead because you are not militant enough, we saw this with the above attacks and when one of the London bombings as specifically targeted in a Muslim suberb.

Now that is Islamic facism. It is the cancer that is eating away at the Muslim religion that has to be removed, much like pedophile priests should be cut off and eradicated from the Christian faith.
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Old 09-22-2006, 07:29 PM   #65
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much like pedophile priests should be cut off and eradicated from the Christian faith.
No argument there, unless you meant literally exterminated. I oppose the death penalty on general principle.


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Now that is Islamic facism. It is the cancer that is eating away at the Muslim religion that has to be removed,
And so the thread begins again, move away from the tangent about whether religion itself is evil this time? (there's a thread for that now of course)


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Old 09-22-2006, 07:44 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Kurgan
No argument there, unless you meant literally exterminated. I oppose the death penalty on general principle.
They should be, they deserve it. But they of all people will know they'll get their just desserts when they are deader than Elvis, for them it's a fitting justice to be judged the way they preach God judges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
And so the thread begins again, move away from the tangent about whether religion itself is evil this time? (there's a thread for that now of course)
Hope so. Religion whichever one you choose to believe isn't without it's problems but there's nothing wrong with it that cannot be fixed by, say, weeding out the individuals who promote homosexual genocide or terrorist acts in the name of Allah.
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Old 10-18-2006, 03:10 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toms
While I consider Islam to be fundamentally similar to all religions, I am willing to concede that, at the moment and on balance, it does seem less reformed than many of the other religions.

However what gets me confused is that all the people who make the most fuss about islamic law, islamic states and islam being unreformed are the ones who want to promote christian law, christian states and "traditional christian values".
(Eg: They want everyone to get married. they don't like homosexuals either, they don't beleive in the advances in science like evolution, they want religin taught in schools, etc..)

And I'd argue that Islam HAS been as reformed as christianity, if not more so, at numerous points in history. The fact it has recently become more traditional, isolationist and extreme is as a result of two things. (1) Saudi influence. (2) The effects of american foreign policy.

hopefully our muslim brothers can shrug off these effects and go back to being leaders in medicine, science, literature and other fields.

Frankly, it was British duplicity in the form of the Balfour Declarations circa WW1 that are to a large degree responsible for the whole palestinian-israeli problem. American foreign policy didn't really factor in till much later as an exacerbating factor.
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