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Old 08-31-2006, 06:03 PM   #1
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America is Nosy

First off im american and i love my country, but there are a lot of times were america should have jsut stayed out of other people business. i know we want to spread democracy and make the world a better place, but starting wars against other countries simply because we dont want them to be communist is stupid. yes i know how communist treat there ppl, but this is none of our business. but i believe that the world could not exist without communism. who else thinks america can be a little less nosy?
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Old 08-31-2006, 06:35 PM   #2
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Uhhh... yeah... no ****. There's no other country on Earth that does what we do in terms of "policing" the world.



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Old 08-31-2006, 06:50 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weed Master
yes i know how communist treat there ppl
Another stereotypical view of Communism. Anyone who's read a book on the subject will know that it's just as inherently evil as capitalism. What dictates whether it will be good or not is the ruler.

On the topic, I do believe my country is far too nosy. For some strange reason, our government seems to think that everyone loves and wants democracy. And look what our nosiness cost of us... Billions of dollars.


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Old 08-31-2006, 07:19 PM   #4
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I am in agreement, of course, that America under the Neocon Party (formerly known as the Republican Party) is FAR too intrusive. Now they want us to attack Iran. It's insane. Why do they put Israel's interests above those of the U.S.?

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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Another stereotypical view of Communism. Anyone who's read a book on the subject will know that it's just as inherently evil as capitalism. What dictates whether it will be good or not is the ruler.
There is no inherent evil behind capitalism. Quite the opposite. It's the most free and prosperous system that exists. The only way that capitalism can be corrupted is when government and the bureaucrats get involved and turn it into crony capitalism. Currently in the U.S. we have a corporatist system where government and business is in bed together (you can thank President Cheney and his cronies for that), which is by no means capitalist.
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Old 08-31-2006, 08:11 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
There is no inherent evil behind capitalism. Quite the opposite.
Read my post again... I said capitalism was just as inherently evil as Communism, and that whether Communism was evil or not depended on the ruler.


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Old 08-31-2006, 08:13 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Read my post again... I said capitalism was just as inherently evil as Communism, and that whether Communism was evil or not depended on the ruler.
Communism is a failed and impossible system. No matter how good the ruler is, a Communist state is doomed to fail. Human nature determines that.
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Old 08-31-2006, 08:24 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Communism is a failed and impossible system. No matter how good the ruler is, a Communist state is doomed to fail. Human nature determines that.
How did the topic of whether Communism could succeed or fail arise? All I was saying was whether it was good or evil. By good I meant ethical, benevolent, etc.


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Old 08-31-2006, 08:26 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
By good I meant ethical, benevolent, etc.
Which Communism is not. It restricts your freedom. It treats you as property of the state. It denies you the right to make your own decisions.

But this is off-topic I suppose.
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Old 08-31-2006, 08:28 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Which Communism is not. It restricts your freedom. It treats you as property of the state. It denies you the right to make your own decisions.
Extremely debatable. You are right about it being off-topic, though.


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Old 09-01-2006, 09:39 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Communism is a failed and impossible system. No matter how good the ruler is, a Communist state is doomed to fail. Human nature determines that.
And then you remembered China.


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Old 09-01-2006, 12:26 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapNColostomy
And then you remembered China.
I certainly wouldn't want to live in China.
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Old 09-01-2006, 01:14 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weed Master
yes i know how communist treat there ppl, but this is none of our business.
None of our business? Is it the UN's business? Who provides the majority of the troops for the UN?

Quote:
but i believe that the world could not exist without communism.
Ah, the world existed without communism for quite some time...

Quote:
who else thinks america can be a little less nosy?
Sometimes it should, but I think that it should not be nosy as in 'not force other countries to adopt our legal practices in exchange for trade rights,' etc, not to recognize illegitimate governments.


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Old 09-01-2006, 01:20 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
None of our business? Is it the UN's business? Who provides the majority of the troops for the UN?
You have a point there, but I get what he's saying. The U.S. shouldn't be acting on its own to change things as it sees fit (see: Iraq).

It's a republic, not an empire.
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Old 09-01-2006, 01:59 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
It's a republic, not an empire.
That doesn't fit the situation. Republics can be just as expansionistic as empires. All it means is that there'd be an emperor rather than a system of checks and balances. The Roman Republic, for example, was very expansionistic and nosy.


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Old 09-01-2006, 04:05 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
That doesn't fit the situation. Republics can be just as expansionistic as empires. All it means is that there'd be an emperor rather than a system of checks and balances. The Roman Republic, for example, was very expansionistic and nosy.
Rome turned into an empire, so yeah, that's my point.

Better make sure we don't as well.
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Old 09-01-2006, 04:19 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Rome turned into an empire, so yeah, that's my point.
Their expansionistic foreign policy was not what turned them into en empire, actually, but this is beside the point.

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Originally Posted by TK-8252
Better make sure we don't as well.
For once, I actually agree with you, TK.


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Old 09-01-2006, 08:12 PM   #17
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The US provides the majority of the troops for the UN... rrrreeeeeeaaaaaaalllllllyyyyyyy??

I'd be surprised if that was true, and impressed if anyone could cite any evidence of it.

How many US troops are going to the Israel/Lebanon border??

As the only superpower in the world the USA is expected by many around the world to be a force for good.. but they forget that the USA is run by US policitians who's main aim isn't to be a force for good, but to be popular with the US electorate.

The US electorate is one of the most insular in the world.

This doesn't lead to good foreign policy..



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Old 09-03-2006, 01:36 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toms
The US provides the majority of the troops for the UN... rrrreeeeeeaaaaaaalllllllyyyyyyy??

I'd be surprised if that was true, and impressed if anyone could cite any evidence of it.
Actually, you're right. I'm sorry; I had assumed since I knew we contributed a large part of the budget for the UN peacekeeping (26% of it). US troops account for only about .5% of the UN forces, while the EU accounts for about 4.5% - probably simply because there are many seperate nations and they all want to contribute something. Thanks for the correction!

Still, we should be concerned for how other nations treat their people on humanitarian grounds if nothing else. Whether other countries slaughter their civilians may not affect us directly, but it certaintly does not reflect on us well to just allow such actions- perhaps why our funding of the peacekeeping operations of the UN is so large, even without a significant military contribution on our part.


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Old 09-03-2006, 09:08 AM   #19
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It may not affect us directly.. but it does tend to affect us indirectly. On a basic level its just not good for us to have instability in the world.. and a lot of the instability breeds specific anger against us.

Anyway, the US has never been shy about getting involved in foreign matters and conflicts.. but it usually does it by giving arms or money or cia "assistance" to those involved. Which is precisely why many of its actions simply ratchet up the dislike of the US.
(i'd think it would be better for the US in particular if it carried out as much as possible of its foreign involvement under the banner of the UN.. that way THEY would take the flak, not the US. But then of course US politicians are more interested in how it plays to the domestic market in the short term than how it affects US safety in the long term...)



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Old 09-03-2006, 03:10 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Another stereotypical view of Communism. Anyone who's read a book on the subject will know that it's just as inherently evil as capitalism. What dictates whether it will be good or not is the ruler.
Fine, I'll haul out the Nolan Chart so we can take a little look at what communism is.

Communism is right down there at Populism, in the same place that Facism sits. Communism is a system built on blatant disregard for human nature, and civil rights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toms
Anyway, the US has never been shy about getting involved in foreign matters and conflicts.. but it usually does it by giving arms or money or cia "assistance" to those involved. Which is precisely why many of its actions simply ratchet up the dislike of the US.
Up untill the years after WWII we were pretty isolationist, we normally didn't get involved untill some of our citizens were harmed or some other reason came up (Think Yellow Journalism/Spanish-American War).
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Old 09-03-2006, 03:13 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samnmax221
Fine, I'll haul out the Nolan Chart so we can take a little look at what communism is.

Communism is right down there at Populism, in the same place that Facism sits. Communism is a system built on blatant disregard for human nature, and civil rights.


Up untill the years after WWII we were pretty isolationist, we normally didn't get involved untill some of our citizens were harmed or some other reason came up (Think Yellow Journalism/Spanish-American War).
Yeah, that's generally how Communism works out when it's used as a form of government. Although, on paper, Communism is an okay form of government.



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Old 09-03-2006, 03:23 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmac7142
Yeah, that's generally how Communism works out when it's used as a form of government. Although, on paper, Communism is an okay form of government.
I still hate the redistribution of money, and my life being decided for me. There was a very good alegory for this in Orwell's Animal Farm, Old Major who was supposed to represent Marx dreams up the theory of Animalism. By the end of the Novella, Napoleon who is supposed to represent Stalin, has turned Animalism into a worse form of Government then the aristocracy that existed before the revolution.
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Old 09-03-2006, 03:38 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmac7142
Yeah, that's generally how Communism works out when it's used as a form of government. Although, on paper, Communism is an okay form of government.
Yes, and on paper, people are all good and do as they're told. That's not the case.
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Old 09-03-2006, 03:45 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Yes, and on paper, people are all good and do as they're told. That's not the case.
Yeah... that's the reason I said Communism doesn't turn out like it's "supposed to."

*wonders if someone could move all these posts about Communism to a new thread about Communism*



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Old 09-03-2006, 04:12 PM   #25
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Good idea jmac.

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Old 09-03-2006, 04:41 PM   #26
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Quote:
but i believe that the world could not exist without communism.
That is an odd belief. Communism was only invented in the 1840's (and has gone through countless iterations ever since).



And some would argue that China has had to become LESS communist to survive (but still remain an authoritarian society of course, why is that kind of power so hard to part with? therein lies the failure of the system itself).


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Old 09-03-2006, 05:27 PM   #27
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Actually Communism could fall anywhere on the left axix of that chart.. just as capitalism could fall anywhere on the right axis/border of that chart.

Communism and capitalism are both ECONOMIC theories.. neither has any bearing on personal or political freedoms.

Capitalism zealots tend to hold to some sort of belief that the inherent market forces in capitalism somehow create a better market for personal and political freedom.. but there seems very little evidence of that. In effect it is anarchist theory.. that the fluctuations and tides of capitalism will lead to enough instability that political and personal freedoms will never be controlled. *

There have been any number of examples of capitalist dictatorships.. and there have also been examples of "communist" regimes where people are personally free.

Communism itself, like democracy, basically arose against capitalist dictatorships. The monarchies that ruled almost every country in the world for centuries were essentially capitalist dictatorships... only the rich had power and choice, the poor had neither.

Numerous small communes have run for decades without any loss of personal freedoms. And i'd argue that a lot of "primitive" societies worked on communist principles. People in polynesia or the amazon rarely had personal possessions, everything was shared among the tribe. That worked well for centures until the west came in and taught them the value of capitalism. (which was when most of their civilisations collapsed).
Of course, the ultimate example of a communist nation is the one from Star Trek.. a utopia where possessions no longer exist and people get what they need.
And the ideal communist country would also be the ultimate democracy.. where every decision was arrived at by refferendum of the whole population.

So neither communism nor capitalism have any relation to personal freedoms and politcal freedoms.. so why have communist states tended to fall more often in this century than capitalist ones? I guess maybe because capitalism more accurately reflects the whole "alpha male" and evolutionary battle.. where our genes force us to always try and be better than everyone else. This gives communism an inherent disadvantage as it is always battling our genes.
-
* however, without the controlling balance of major communist states, it seems to me that capitalism in the west is becoming ever more extremist. Capitalism has always worked only when it has had democratic governments to keep it in check. because the best interests of the people DON'T always conincide with the best interests of the MONEY.
When capitalism becomes more powerful than democracy then you end up back where we started with basically monarchies.. but replace kings and lords with chairmen and shareholders. And as global business in the west gets bigger and bigger.. and governments have less and less control of them.. we risk heading to one of those OTHER common sci-fi futures.. the ones where the MegaCorps rule all.



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Old 09-03-2006, 06:13 PM   #28
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Old 10-17-2006, 07:42 PM   #29
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Sorry, but I wasn't aware that personal possessions went completely by the wayside in ST. I daresay that had someone tried to take any of Kirk's possessions from his SF apartment in the movies, they'dve disintegrated before they got past the door. Still, I'll grant you that the apparent lack of money and the prolific use of things like food replicators do make it seem like a sort of utopia.
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Old 10-17-2006, 08:41 PM   #30
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Minor geek-o-rama point: In Star Trek, money isn't used on Earth. And presumably in the Federation proper, although other species and various Empires do.

In Star Trek IV, the marine biologist who ends up going back with them asks Kirk in exasperation whether they use money in the future, and he definitely replies; "No!"

And yeah, America's nosy. Stop being nosy, America! Pisses me off...


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Old 10-17-2006, 08:49 PM   #31
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Quote:
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Pisses me off...
So does the Quebec sovereignty movement, if I remember correctly. That really had nothing to do with the topic but I really don't have any idea how we got here.
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Old 10-17-2006, 09:22 PM   #32
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Well, Mace, no money does not = no possessions. That was my basic point.

toms--I don't believe anyone could reasonably contest your point about the number of US troops under UN command. Frankly, I don't have a problem with it either. And besides, perhaps the numbers of troops involved should reflect the populations of member countries, not the size of their economies. How many troops do either the PRC, India or even Russia contribute? And givien the general incompetence of UN leadership, I'd reccomend vs any of them providing more than they do already (if at all).
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