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Old 09-04-2006, 12:27 AM   #1
Emperor Devon
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The Mentally Deficient

Inspired from a conversation in Ahto, I thought I'd make a thread to discuss the issue in a more serious place.

What are your thoughts on the mentally deficient, those plagued with Down Syndrome, Rett Sydrome, and all the other disorders that result in mental retardation?

I myself think they are a needless burden upon society. They take more than the average citizen, and give less back. Attempts to streamline them into public schools fail miserably from what I've seen and experienced, and asylums for them are a waste of resources. In my opinion, mothers should have abortions when they find out their child has a disorder that results in mental retardation, and thus end the problem and needless drain upon society.

Thoughts?


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Old 09-04-2006, 12:47 AM   #2
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They should be aborted once the mother finds out that the kid will be retarded or otherwise disabled. They will die young anyway and never become productive members of society, only a burden on others.

The ones that are born, though, must be treated with special care like they're treated now.
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Old 09-04-2006, 12:57 AM   #3
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That's a standpoint I agree with. If a child is going to be mentally incapacitated at birth, why should the mother condemn herself to a lifetime of catering to the special needs of a child that will never become a self-sufficient adult?

Though, it'd have to be totally for the mother to decide. And the deficiency would have to be moderate: criteria for aborting a child on the grounds of inability are something that can be manipulated.
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Old 09-04-2006, 01:38 AM   #4
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While it's possible to determine the presence of Down's in utero, there is absolutely no way to tell the level of retardation before birth, or even for a few years after birth. You'd be condemning children who might have a very mild disability to death.

Since when do we determine someone's worth by their ability to contribute financially to society? If they contribute love and joy in a family, isn't that a worthwhile contribution? Does this mean that by extension we should rid the world of anyone who can't contribute financially? Are you volunteering to get killed if you go blind, deaf, or become otherwise handicapped and become a "needless drain on society?" What if you lose a job and can't find another one, does that mean you become a needless drain as soon as you collect unemployment? When do we stop? When we create the perfect super-race?

That mother may love her child so much that she's willing to make a few extra sacrifices. My friend who lives a block away has cerebral palsy and has to use a wheelchair. Her husband has cerebral palsy. Her mother has Alzheimer's, and her brother, who lives with her, is retarded. Her son is 'normal.' She's one of the most amazing women I've met. Last weekend, she sat at the top of a 50 foot tower for 36 hours (was going to be 4 days, but an electrical storm, 60 mph winds, and threat of tornado forced her down for awhile). She did this to raise money for an organization that does Alzheimer's research, and she raised a lot of funds.
If you'd condemned her to death because of her physical disability, people in my town would be far less informed about Alzheimer's and the organization would not have the funds it so badly needs.

Having a mental or physical disability does not mean one can't contribute to society in a meaningful way. It's also impossible to determine the contributions a person will make before they're even born.

Aborting a baby on the possibilty that s/he might not contribute to society is both foolish and unethical.


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Old 09-04-2006, 02:01 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Since when do we determine someone's worth by their ability to contribute financially to society?
As I consider money to be a foolish concept that we'd be better off without, (yes, laugh at me, all of you!) that has no bearing in my reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
If they contribute love and joy in a family, isn't that a worthwhile contribution?
Wouldn't that family be able to have more love and joy if their son/daughter doesn't need help getting dressed at 17? As I see it, the mentally deficient can be loved, but with all the complications that arise from it, normal or exceptional people can be loved more. People with children who are mentally retarded should have abortions, and have sex again. They can have children who they can love more, and which will benefit society more. As I see it, everyone's happy if the second option is chosen. I've met mentally deficient people before, and they were extremely annoying to say the very least. It'll be good for everyone that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Are you volunteering to get killed if you go blind, deaf, or become otherwise handicapped and become a "needless drain on society?" What if you lose a job and can't find another one, does that mean you become a needless drain as soon as you collect unemployment?
Whoa, since when did I start proliferating Nazi propaganda? Besides, there are many people who contribute to society who are blind or deaf. But those who are mentally deficient cannot, as their simple minds prevent them from doing anything mentally or physically.

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
When do we stop? When we create the perfect super-race?
The idea of all humanity being flawless mentally and physically is an appealing one, but it's all but impossible to, and killing of those who aren't is counterproductive.

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
{snip}
That friend of yours souds like she contributes more to society than someone with Down Sydrome. But nowhere have I advocated killing of the physically disabled.

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
It's also impossible to determine the contributions a person will make before they're even born.
Mostly true, though if you find your baby is mentally deficient, you'll know for a fact that his/her uses will be far smaller than someone else's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Aborting a baby on the possibilty that s/he might not contribute to society is both foolish and unethical.
And what if the second child you had ended up being a scientist who helped cure diseases, a politician who made the country a better place, or some other useful thing?


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Old 09-04-2006, 02:05 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
While it's possible to determine the presence of Down's in utero, there is absolutely no way to tell the level of retardation before birth, or even for a few years after birth. You'd be condemning children who might have a very mild disability to death.

Since when do we determine someone's worth by their ability to contribute financially to society? If they contribute love and joy in a family, isn't that a worthwhile contribution? Does this mean that by extension we should rid the world of anyone who can't contribute financially? Are you volunteering to get killed if you go blind, deaf, or become otherwise handicapped and become a "needless drain on society?" What if you lose a job and can't find another one, does that mean you become a needless drain as soon as you collect unemployment? When do we stop? When we create the perfect super-race?
It would be a decision the mother would have to make. Mandatory abortions are something we'll never see under our current political system.

Nobody wants to slaughter the disabled. The proposal is to abort children with predicted mental disabilities that might permanently incapacitate their ability to function socially, unassisted. Is it ethical to bring someone into the world that will have to live assisted with no real prospect of becoming fully coherent or having normal independence? Perhaps it would be an act of mercy to end what many couldn't even consider a life before it ever begins.

Last edited by 90SK; 09-04-2006 at 02:08 AM. Reason: I must stress my stance of probing conjecture in this matter.
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Old 09-04-2006, 02:06 AM   #7
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Agreed (with Jae). I've worked with mentally ill/disabled people for years. Many of them have regular jobs, and families that love them. I think it's kind of ****ed up to even think about the fact that there are people out there that think even for a moment that they should have been aborted.


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Old 09-04-2006, 02:13 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Since when do we determine someone's worth by their ability to contribute financially to society? If they contribute love and joy in a family, isn't that a worthwhile contribution? Does this mean that by extension we should rid the world of anyone who can't contribute financially? Are you volunteering to get killed if you go blind, deaf, or become otherwise handicapped and become a "needless drain on society?" What if you lose a job and can't find another one, does that mean you become a needless drain as soon as you collect unemployment? When do we stop? When we create the perfect super-race?
You've entirely missed the point by a mile. A fetus is not a "someone" first of all. Second, love and joy isn't something that you can eat, wear, or live in. You have to eat, you have to wear clothes, and you have to live somewhere. That means you have to have money to buy those things, which means you have to work, which is something that retarded people don't do very well.

And to suggest that aborting a defective fetus would be like killing EVERYONE on Earth who is retarded/disabled/deaf/blind/jobless/homeless/starving/etc. is just stupid. A fetus isn't a person. It's not a human being. A blind guy is a person, a homeless dude is a person, etc. There is no relativity between killing a functional human and an undeveloped fetus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Aborting a baby on the possibilty that s/he might not contribute to society is both foolish and unethical.
Abortion is foolish and unethical when it's used in place of birth control, or if a female fetus is aborted just because the parents wanted a male. THOSE things are foolish and unethical. Sparing a child from a miserable life where they are unwanted by society and must be cared for like a house pet, that's not foolish or unethical at all. It's the only humane thing to do.
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Old 09-04-2006, 05:12 AM   #9
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I myself think they are a needless burden upon society. They take more than the average citizen, and give less back. Attempts to streamline them into public schools fail miserably from what I've seen and experienced, and asylums for them are a waste of resources.
Utilitarian bio-ethics, hm? Measuring peoples' worth by how much they contribute? How cute.

Quote:
In my opinion, mothers should have abortions when they find out their child has a disorder that results in mental retardation, and thus end the problem and needless drain upon society.
In my opinion, people should not be measured by what they give to society versus what they take from society. A human being is a human being. It may not be an A4 person, but hey, it should still be allowed to live.

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They should be aborted once the mother finds out that the kid will be retarded or otherwise disabled. They will die young anyway (...)
Where did you hear that? There are lots of mentally handicapped children who grow up to live happy lives.

Quote:
That's a standpoint I agree with. If a child is going to be mentally incapacitated at birth, why should the mother condemn herself to a lifetime of catering to the special needs of a child that will never become a self-sufficient adult?
Why would she condemn herself to a lifetime of grief because utilitarians such as you don't think the baby's "valuable" enough to society?

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What if you lose a job and can't find another one, does that mean you become a needless drain as soon as you collect unemployment? When do we stop? When we create the perfect super-race?
That's what struck me, too. I'm not saying that if we do a, b will happen, but what's the moral difference? The "it's just a fetus"-argument doesn't cut it with me, since we do know that with 90% certainity, that fetus's going to grow into a human. It might be "just a lump of flesh", but it's a lump of human flesh that'll grow into a little American, German, Tutu or Korean if allowed to grow.

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As I consider money to be a foolish concept that we'd be better off without, (yes, laugh at me, all of you!) that has no bearing in my reasons.
Then kindly explain what you mean with "They take more than they give".

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People with children who are mentally retarded should have abortions, and have sex again.
You really think they'll dare that after having a mentally handicapped kid? Think again.

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As I see it, everyone's happy if the [abortion] option is chosen.
Thank you for speaking for me.

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I've met mentally deficient people before, and they were extremely annoying to say the very least.
I find it very disturbing that you use that as an argument.

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Whoa, since when did I start proliferating Nazi propaganda?
Since here.

Oh, and yes, utilitarian bio-ethics is one of the more fundamental parts of Nazism. Not to pull the Hitler card or anything - you were the one who asked.

And what if the second child you had ended up being a scientist who helped cure diseases, a politician who made the country a better place, or some other useful thing?

Quote:
And to suggest that aborting a defective fetus would be like killing EVERYONE on Earth who is retarded/disabled/deaf/blind/jobless/homeless/starving/etc. is just stupid. A fetus isn't a person. It's not a human being. A blind guy is a person, a homeless dude is a person, etc. There is no relativity between killing a functional human and an undeveloped fetus.
They're two sides of the same coin.

But OK, let me re-write what Jae said to have it fit: What about fetuses who'll turn out to become blind, deaf, really depressed, malformed, or whatever else? Is it OK to abort them then?

Quote:
Sparing a child from a miserable life where they are unwanted by society and must be cared for like a house pet, that's not foolish or unethical at all. It's the only humane thing to do.
Again the "unwanted by society"-thing. But you know what, if "society" can't handle that certain people have a right to be born and experience Earth even though they can't design a space-ship, then that's society's problem.

Just that society doesn't want something doesn't mean that something should be wiped out.

Quote:
And what if the second child you had ended up being a scientist who helped cure diseases, a politician who made the country a better place, or some other useful thing?
What if the second child becomes a rapist?
What if the first child cures a disease? What if the first child has a child that cures AIDS?

You can go "what if-" all you want, it doesn't change a thing.


Last edited by Dagobahn Eagle; 09-04-2006 at 05:46 AM.
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Old 09-04-2006, 08:56 AM   #10
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When it comes to these kind of questions i believe strongly that this is not a matter to be desided by a country's gouverment but by the parents of the child. To abort disabled children as a policy i believe is strictly wrong and a step towards a facist mentallity. Solidarity not functionality, this would mean we would base people's worth and freedom on their contribution to society. That is facism and there's no way around that.

Why not gas every elderly person over the age of 85? They don't contribute they just lay in bed and gets fed through tubes. And then why not shot a few homeless people, and addicts, and people who hasn't got a job.

Yeah we would all be a whole lot richer but is it right?
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Old 09-04-2006, 10:04 AM   #11
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The only thing I care about regarding mentally deficient people, is that they're treated the same way as other people when it comes to the law.

I remember seeing something on comcast.net about a 12 year old boy with the mentality of a 3 year old harassing a neighbor's daughter, at one point throwing rocks. When the police were called, they wouldn't do anything because he was retarded and "didn't know any better." (The actual video was about the neighbors putting up a "Warning: Retard" sign and everyones' response to it.)

I, myself, had to occasionaly work with a disabled person (in a wheelchair and I quesion her intelligence level as well) at the movie theater, and in the end, she spent more time being useless than useful. Usually one of us would have to cover for her because she was either late, left early, or using one of her frequent 15 minute cell-phone-in-the-bathroom breaks. Yet, she would never get a write up or in trouble, and the managers couldn't fire her because "she's disabled and they'd get sued." If I was in charge, I would have fired her and taken the lawsuit head on, she was not a real productive member of the team and broke all sorts of rules.
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Old 09-04-2006, 11:23 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
You've entirely missed the point by a mile. A fetus is not a "someone" first of all.
That's all well and good, it's an argument I've used enough when arguing for the right to choose abortion, but it holds no water in this argument.

If you're going to be able to test an unborn child for something like mental retardation, then you're going to have to wait until the fetus has developed enough to have a level of conciousness, and at least a partially developed brain. You're terminating a self-aware being, based solely on some preconception that they will be miserable, unwanted, and useless.

As much as I hate slippery slope arguments, I think it absolutely applies in this situation. There is nowhere to draw the line. At what point is a fetus clearly going to be un-productive? Who gets to make that decision? What if the mother doesn't WANT to abort her baby? Too bad, so sad, do it anyways?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Wouldn't that family be able to have more love and joy if their son/daughter doesn't need help getting dressed at 17?
Apparently you don't understand family love, or "Unconditional" love. A mother/father who loves their child would not love them anymore if they were fully mentally capable. They might wish that, only so their child would maybe have more friends, or go on more dates, but they couldn't love them anymore.

As far as "contributions" to society, that's a fantastic load of bull****. I have come across plenty of mentally handicapped people who contribute more than plenty of "normal" people. If you're going to use that as a standard then you are advocating we systematically remove all non-productive people from the world. Let's start with hobos! We can beat them to death with baseball bats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I've met mentally deficient people before, and they were extremely annoying to say the very least.
So now we get to kill annoying people too? That's fantastic, there's a few people on my list that I'm sure the world will be better off without.



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Old 09-04-2006, 11:36 AM   #13
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I'm with Phreak on this one, they should be treated the same as other people when it comes to the law.

I dunno what to think about the whole abortion thing though, it's not a good reason to kill off a "person" (fetus in this case) just because they are/will be annoying in life. But i'm also kinda for the "Eat or get eaten" philosophy. They don't survive by themselves in society without our help, so I guess they are pretty useless? Let's say a disabled lion is born, will it survive in nature? No. It doesn't give anything back to the pack so it would probably die at a young age or be banished.

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Old 09-04-2006, 11:44 AM   #14
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A lion that breaks it's leg also will not survive in nature, unless someone intervenes and fixes that leg. Do you want us to stop having doctors? You broke your leg? That's unfortunate. It didn't heal properly? Well, I guess you're no good to us anymore. *gunshot*

I would HOPE, as a society we will evolve beyond such petty ideals as dog eat dog, but this thread is a good reminder that we haven't as of yet. And we seem to have a long way to go.



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Old 09-04-2006, 11:52 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Wouldn't that family be able to have more love and joy if their son/daughter doesn't need help getting dressed at 17?
I've seen girls at the mall surrounded by their friends and with their mom getting help getting dressed. Should we kill them too? They can't decide what they want to wear, they're wasting precious social contribution time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I've met mentally deficient people before, and they were extremely annoying to say the very least.
I have too, worked with them for many years. They're no more annoying than normal people. Infact, many of them have proven themselves more socially capable than some people that are supposedly "all there" mentally.


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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
It'll be good for everyone that way.
Yeah, everyone but the retarded kid you kill.


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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
But those who are mentally deficient cannot, as their simple minds prevent them from doing anything mentally or physically.
Bull****.

I'll bet you've probably even met some mentally deficient people that you didn't even realize were.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
killing of those who aren't is counterproductive.
CONTRADICTION!


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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
And what if the second child you had ended up being a scientist who helped cure diseases, a politician who made the country a better place, or some other useful thing?
And what if they ended up being a complete dumbass, but are not technically retarded?

What if's are weak arguements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
which means you have to work, which is something that retarded people don't do very well.
Seems to me it something a lot of people don't do very well, retarded or not.
Perhaps it's simply a lack of motivation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Sparing a child from a miserable life where they must be cared for like a house pet.
Now I'm not a parent, but I've spent a lot of time taking care of kids.

And from what I've learned, kids require quite a bit of care all the way up until the little bastards are 18-20.


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Old 09-04-2006, 12:21 PM   #16
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I would HOPE, as a society we will evolve beyond such petty ideals as dog eat dog, but this thread is a good reminder that we haven't as of yet. And we seem to have a long way to go.
There's a good deal of "kill-those-not-benefitting-society"-attitude in society. Read One door away from Heaven by Koontz, he brings you up-to-date on it.
Quote:
And from what I've learned, kids require quite a bit of care all the way up until the little bastards are 18-20.
And beyond.

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Old 09-04-2006, 01:47 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Pho3nix

I dunno what to think about the whole abortion thing though, it's not a good reason to kill off a "person" (fetus in this case) just because they are/will be annoying in life. But i'm also kinda for the "Eat or get eaten" philosophy. They don't survive by themselves in society without our help, so I guess they are pretty useless? Let's say a disabled lion is born, will it survive in nature? No. It doesn't give anything back to the pack so it would probably die at a young age or be banished.
Lions are actually different from most cat animals because they have a more evolved form of "social life". Lions share food with other in the same pack who are unable to hunt well enough. Just as many other animals (wolves, chimps, mercats etc... )

Also that whole jungles law thing is the most utterly stupid thing ever. If we don't care about other people why take care of our own children? What it would mean is facism and how well have that worked out? A democratic society can not function without solidarity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Whoa, since when did I start proliferating Nazi propaganda? Besides, there are many people who contribute to society who are blind or deaf. But those who are mentally deficient cannot, as their simple minds prevent them from doing anything mentally or physically.
How is killing mentally deficient children for not being able to work morally worse than what the Nazi's/Facists proclaim when they say only the strongest survives?

In the end this is only about getting more money. Do we want more money to buy **** we don't need or do we want to help everyone have a good life and to be able to feel love and joy.
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Old 09-04-2006, 02:31 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
Should we kill them too? They can't decide what they want to wear, they're wasting precious social contribution time.
I was using that as an example of how incapable they are. I can use another, if you'd like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
I have too, worked with them for many years. They're no more annoying than normal people.
You've had your experiences with them, and I've had mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
Yeah, everyone but the retarded kid you kill.
And?

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Originally Posted by El Sitherino
Bull****.
Please, let's keep this civilized.

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Originally Posted by El Sitherino
I'll bet you've probably even met some mentally deficient people that you didn't even realize were.
As a child, most likely. Later, doubtful. But as you have no knowledge of the people I've met in my life, you can't say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
CONTRADICTION!
No, I wouldn't say it is. I was reffering to the creation of a super-race, which can't be done by killing off people. My main point is that it would benefit society if there no mentally deficient. It would benefit society even more if we were a super-race, yes, but tat's all but impossible to do, and trying to do it would kill of millions of people.

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Originally Posted by El Sitherino
And what if they ended up being a complete dumbass, but are not technically retarded?
At least their minds are advanced enough to have jobs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
What if's are weak arguements.
Given how many mentally deficient people have been born in the history of humanity, what is the probability that some of the mothers would've given birth to much more useful children if they had abortions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
Seems to me it something a lot of people don't do very well, retarded or not. Perhaps it's simply a lack of motivation?
Who knows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
And from what I've learned, kids require quite a bit of care all the way up until the little bastards are 18-20.
And how many of them will need constant care whether by you or someone at an asylum when they're in their 80s?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sockerbit89
How is killing mentally deficient children for not being able to work morally worse than what the Nazi's/Facists proclaim when they say only the strongest survives?
Because the children are not being rounded up, tortured and shot?


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Old 09-04-2006, 03:22 PM   #19
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Quote:
Should we kill them too? They can't decide what they want to wear, they're wasting precious social contribution time.
I was using that as an example of how incapable they are. I can use another, if you'd like.
Some of them are. Many of them are fully able to function normally in society. Some to the point where you won't realize they're "retarded".

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You've had your experiences with [challenged people], and I've had mine.
Exactly. Some are annoying as Hell, some are nice, some are both. Just like with regular people.

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Yeah, everyone but the retarded kid you kill.
And?
Oh, right, of course, once you have an IQ of less than 80 you don't care if you're killed. My bad.

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No, I wouldn't say it is. I was reffering to the creation of a super-race, which can't be done by killing off people.
Yes, it can be. Kill of all the handicapped and everyone with an IQ of <120, and you have a super-race with an average IQ of almost a quarter of a hundred more than the old one, and no disabilities.
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My main point is that it would benefit society if there no mentally deficient.
Yup. It'd also benefit society more if there were no elderly, seriously physically or mentally ill, or otherwise unable to function.
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At least their minds are advanced enough to have jobs.
And the minds of people with various forms of disabilities never are?

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And how many of them will need constant care whether by you or someone at an asylum when they're in their 80s?
When Alzheimer's or kicks in, quite a few.

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How is killing mentally deficient children for not being able to work morally worse than what the Nazi's/Facists proclaim when they say only the strongest survives?
Because the children are not being rounded up, tortured and shot?
He meant philosophically. How's the attitude better, not how's the method better.


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Old 09-04-2006, 03:24 PM   #20
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Personally what I find disturbing are the arguments that say that we're advocating something along the lines of "hey we might as well just round up all the homeless and disabled people and just shoot them as well." Stop using that insane rhetoric. A fetus is NOT equal to a living breathing thinking human being. I thought that the liberals here knew that already.

And what's even more amazing is that it's coming from the crowd here that is very much for the right to abortion. No one here is suggesting that we FORCE people to have abortions when a doctor says the fetus is defective... that would make us no better than China.

All I'm saying is that the better choice would be to abort a fetus that's retarded so you don't bring it into the world where its going to be a problem all its life. Holy ****, yeah I know that normal people aren't perfect either. I don't need to be told that because I know that better than anyone else here. But chances are they won't need to be treated like a pet all of their life.

Why are the people here who are pro-choice on abortion such critics of aborting for the reason that the child will be retarded?? If women are going to have the right to an abortion, why is it wrong to abort a defective fetus as opposed to a normal one? Kill the regular kid, instead of the retarded one? Are you guys just so concerned about being politically correct?
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Old 09-04-2006, 04:21 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by El Sithy
I've seen girls at the mall surrounded by their friends and with their mom getting help getting dressed. Should we kill them too? They can't decide what they want to wear, they're wasting precious social contribution time.
"Social contribution time." I love that phrase. I can just picture the gaggle of giggling girls....


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Originally Posted by TK-8252
Personally what I find disturbing are the arguments that say that we're advocating something along the lines of "hey we might as well just round up all the homeless and disabled people and just shoot them as well." Stop using that insane rhetoric.
It's not rhetoric. Say you start killing fetuses for being at risk for being 'mentally deficient'. When do you stop? What if they're born that way--can you still kill them then? Say there's a birth injury, like not enough oxygen to the brain, and the child's now going to be mentally deficient. Should we kill those children? Let's say they're normal, but they fall when they're a toddler and develop a traumatic brain injury and are mentally deficient as a result. Kill them, too? They're not boing to be able to 'contribute', whatever that's supposed to mean.
Where do you stop the killing?

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Originally Posted by TK-8252
A fetus is NOT equal to a living breathing thinking human being. I thought that the liberals here knew that already.
I disagree. A fetus is a human. It's not able to live outside the womb yet, but it's a person nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by TK-8252
No one here is suggesting that we FORCE people to have abortions when a doctor says the fetus is defective... that would make us no better than China.
That's what this sounds like to me--'oh, we've had an amniocentesis and found Down's syndrome. Abort them all and now!' Only problem: there's absolutely no way to determine level of functioning just by knowing someone has 3 of gene 21 instead of the normal 2. So do you just assume they'll all be complete and total gorks? Kill off the ones who might be functional just so we don't want any chance of having to deal with a drooling idiot?

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Originally Posted by TK-8252
All I'm saying is that the better choice would be to abort a fetus that's retarded so you don't bring it into the world where its going to be a problem all its life.
Raising my 'normal' children has not been problem-free, I assure you. No child is problem-free. I anticipate we'll have many more problems before they become independent, too. However, the joy and love they bring to our family far outweighs the work. My sister-in-law is a foster parent for kids who have been abused and who are borderline functional in some cases. She has some extra tasks she has to do to care for them, but she gets so much satisfaction out of making a positive difference in their lives that she's been doing this for about 15 years now. She doesn't view them as 'problems'.

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Originally Posted by TK-8252
Kill the regular kid, instead of the retarded one? Are you guys just so concerned about being politically correct?
I don't particularly like seeing aborting the normal ones, either. I live with it, but I don't like it. I wish birth control was so good that we never had to deal with abortion.


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Originally Posted by Emperor D
Given how many mentally deficient people have been born in the history of humanity, what is the probability that some of the mothers would've given birth to much more useful children if they had abortions?
Our humanity is not determined by how 'useful' we can be to society. Our human worth is not determined by our ability to work. If it was, we'd all be killed off as soon as we retired or were incapacitated and unable to work. You would be imposing your definition of 'useful to society' on everyone else. My definition of 'useful to society' includes so much more than just net worth.

Determining who should live and die is playing God.


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Old 09-04-2006, 04:25 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
A fetus is NOT equal to a living breathing thinking human being. I thought that the liberals here knew that already.
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Originally Posted by ET Warrior
That's all well and good, it's an argument I've used enough when arguing for the right to choose abortion, but it holds no water in this argument.

If you're going to be able to test an unborn child for something like mental retardation, then you're going to have to wait until the fetus has developed enough to have a level of conciousness, and at least a partially developed brain. You're terminating a self-aware being, based solely on some preconception that they will be miserable, unwanted, and useless.
Maybe you missed it the first time. You can't tell if your baby is going to be mentally retarded before it's developed a brain. You cannot. You might not even be able to tell until it's 4 or 5 years old, or sometimes even later than that.

I'm not even sure what you're arguing here, because the thread itself is about making a pro-active decision to terminate all potentially disabled babies before they come to term. This isn't even remotely close to debating whether or not the choice to have an abortion is an acceptable one. This thread is about seeking out retarded fetus' and aborting them.

I'm not saying that parents shouldn't be allowed to make that decision for themselves, if they honestly think their lives will be miserable and they'll hate their child forever because it is disabled then that is potentially their perogative. But to say that they SHOULD because it's a benefit to society is the worst thing I have ever heard.

So yes. To advocate the active attempt to terminate all mentally disabled fetus' is more or less equivalent to advocating the termination of any person deemed non-beneficial to society.



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Old 09-04-2006, 04:35 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
It's not rhetoric. Say you start killing fetuses for being at risk for being 'mentally deficient'. When do you stop? What if they're born that way--can you still kill them then? Say there's a birth injury, like not enough oxygen to the brain, and the child's now going to be mentally deficient. Should we kill those children? Let's say they're normal, but they fall when they're a toddler and develop a traumatic brain injury and are mentally deficient as a result. Kill them, too? They're not boing to be able to 'contribute', whatever that's supposed to mean.
Where do you stop the killing?
More of the exact same kind of insane rhetoric that I'm so tired of hearing.

If you can abort a regular fetus then you can abort a retarded one as well. If you cannot abort a regular fetus then you cannot abort a retarded one. It's that simple. No exceptions.

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
I disagree. A fetus is a human. It's not able to live outside the womb yet, but it's a person nonetheless.
Ask any doctor or scientist and they will disagree with you.

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
That's what this sounds like to me--'oh, we've had an amniocentesis and found Down's syndrome. Abort them all and now!' Only problem: there's absolutely no way to determine level of functioning just by knowing someone has 3 of gene 21 instead of the normal 2. So do you just assume they'll all be complete and total gorks? Kill off the ones who might be functional just so we don't want any chance of having to deal with a drooling idiot?
You go to a doctor. If they say the fetus is defective, the better option is to abort it. If the doctor is unsure then don't abort it. It's that simple.

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Raising my 'normal' children has not been problem-free, I assure you. No child is problem-free. I anticipate we'll have many more problems before they become independent, too.
Holy ****, I KNOW THAT! I said that I knew that already and I don't need to be told that like I'm an ignorant bastard.

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Determining who should live and die is playing God.
I agree. Keeping Terri Schiavo on life support was playing god.

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Originally Posted by ET Warrior
Maybe you missed it the first time. You can't tell if your baby is going to be mentally retarded before it's developed a brain. You cannot. You might not even be able to tell until it's 4 or 5 years old, or sometimes even later than that.
Then don't abort it if you can't be sure. If the doctor says it WILL have a certain disability then it'd be better to abort.

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Originally Posted by ET Warrior
But to say that they SHOULD because it's a benefit to society is the worst thing I have ever heard.
Why? Because it's not the politically correct thing to do?

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Originally Posted by ET Warrior
So yes. To advocate the active attempt to terminate all mentally disabled fetus' is more or less equivalent to advocating the termination of any person deemed non-beneficial to society.
More insane rhetoric. Yawn.
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Old 09-04-2006, 05:07 PM   #24
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Ask any doctor or scientist and they will disagree with you.
Blatant untruth. I know MANY doctors, biologists, and chemists, etc. who will agree that a fetus is a human being.
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
More insane rhetoric. Yawn.
Just because you ignore the comment and call it rhetoric doesn't necessarily constitute an effective rebuttal.
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
Why? Because it's not the politically correct thing to do?
Please. Political correctness is something I've NEVER been accused of. It is terrible because saying that we need to actively determine who is going to be of value to society and get rid of the rest is pretty much the most barbaric thing I've read on this discussion board. It's also the MO that the Nazi's followed. You want to hide behind the facade that you aren't killing humans then I suppose you go right ahead, but if you asked any red-blooded German circa 1940 they would have had the same reasoning. It's okay becuase Jews aren't human.

Of course, you woulnd't agree with them, but then again not everyone seems to agree with you.

The element of this debate that puts me on the negative is the use of 'SHOULD'. I think there are VERY few instances (if any) where women SHOULD have an abortion, as opposed to when they CAN have an abortion.

Instigating a policy that deems a {potential) human life as less valuable based on some in-determinate idea of worth is horrific at best.



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Old 09-04-2006, 05:46 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by ET Warrior
Blatant untruth. I know MANY doctors, biologists, and chemists, etc. who will agree that a fetus is a human being.
Then by those standards, EVERY abortion is murder and infanticide, and you should be speaking out against all abortion. Are you going to do that?

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Originally Posted by ET Warrior
Just because you ignore the comment and call it rhetoric doesn't necessarily constitute an effective rebuttal.
I ignore it because it is so obsurd. Abortion of a defective fetus is the same as Nazi genocide, yadda yadda.

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Originally Posted by ET Warrior
It is terrible because saying that we need to actively determine who is going to be of value to society and get rid of the rest is pretty much the most barbaric thing I've read on this discussion board.
A fetus is not a "who." If it was, then all abortion is murder and every single doctor who performs an abortion should be prosecuted for murder.

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Originally Posted by ET Warrior
It's also the MO that the Nazi's followed. You want to hide behind the facade that you aren't killing humans then I suppose you go right ahead, but if you asked any red-blooded German circa 1940 they would have had the same reasoning. It's okay becuase Jews aren't human.
More of the Hitler card.
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Old 09-04-2006, 06:25 PM   #26
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You guys are unjustly cruel (except Jae Onasi). Just 'cause a kid's retarted doesn't mean he'll be a disruptive problem to society. sure, there's a chance, but can't you just let the kid live his life? i mean, c'mon. it's not his fault he's mentally challenged. you are saying that if someone's IQ is below 60 then he should be put in front of the firing squad. he could have made a breakthrough in science for his condition.

I mean, look at Charlie Gordon. Yes, while the stimulant didn't last long, he made major mathematical and scientifical breakthroughs, spoke god knows how many languages, and became teh smartest person in the world at that time.


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Old 09-04-2006, 06:47 PM   #27
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You guys are unjustly cruel (except Jae Onasi)..
Thanks for reading everyone's responses I suppose...

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Then by those standards, EVERY abortion is murder and infanticide, and you should be speaking out against all abortion. Are you going to do that?
I didn't say I necessarily AGREED with that assesment, I was just pointing out that you were making statements that weren't true.

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Originally Posted by TK-8252
I ignore it because it is so obsurd.
absurd eh? Care to elaborate? Why is making a general proclamation that a retarded fetus should clearly be terminated because once it's fully 'human' it probably won't be useful any different from saying that we KNOW homeless people aren't contributing to society, so why not fix that problem as well? You've failed to explain that at all.

You also failed to explain how we're supposed to know if a fetus is going to be mentally retarded. As far as I'm aware, you can MAYBE figure that out after a great majority of the fetus has already developed. One of the key ingredients in that diagnosis is a central nervous system. So then at what point are we no longer allowed to abort a fetus before it becomes human-killing?

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More of the Hitler card.
If the shoe fits...



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Old 09-04-2006, 07:21 PM   #28
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What have autistics ever done? Look at some of them. Stephen Spielberg. Socrates. Isaac Newton. Thomas Jefferson. Jane Austin. Wolfgang Mozart. J. R. R. Tolkien. Albert Einstein.

Seriously. Name one thing they've ever done.
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Old 09-04-2006, 07:57 PM   #29
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Why is making a general proclamation that a retarded fetus should clearly be terminated because once it's fully 'human' it probably won't be useful any different from saying that we KNOW homeless people aren't contributing to society, so why not fix that problem as well? You've failed to explain that at all.
That's because I don't need to explain it to you. You fully well know that a homeless bum is still a living breathing person, and killing him would be murder which is wrong. Abortion is not murder. This is very basic stuff.

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You also failed to explain how we're supposed to know if a fetus is going to be mentally retarded. As far as I'm aware, you can MAYBE figure that out after a great majority of the fetus has already developed. One of the key ingredients in that diagnosis is a central nervous system. So then at what point are we no longer allowed to abort a fetus before it becomes human-killing?
Within the first trimester, an ultrasound test's detection rate for Down syndrome is 90%–95% with a false positive of 2%–5%.

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If the shoe fits...
Which it doesn't, of course.
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Old 09-04-2006, 08:12 PM   #30
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After we get rid of all the 'tards and Corkies, lets start next with the short people.

Then all those too obese to sit in an airline chair. Seriously. They take up waaay too much space; eat more than the average person; use more energy; require more fabric for their clothes; they're a burden on the health care system; etc.

We might even consider euthanasia for toddlers that develop learning disabilities or who are children of parents in the poverty class. Studies show that these kids are less likely to get higher educations and more likely to drop out of grade school. Why let them grow up to become burdens to society or worse: prison inmates?

Eventually, we should be able to manipulate the gene pool and isolate a master race of citizens from which to build upon a new and improved society. Then we can work on dominating the rest of the world.


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Old 09-04-2006, 08:16 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Some of them are. Many of them are fully able to function normally in society. Some to the point where you won't realize they're "retarded".
But as was stated earlier, it is difficult to tell how severe a baby's disorder is. If having abortions for all babies with disorders that result in mental deficiencies results in also getting rid of the ones with only mild disorders, so be it.

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Exactly. Some are annoying as Hell, some are nice, some are both. Just like with regular people.
Except these people drain society's resources more and give less back.

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Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Oh, right, of course, once you have an IQ of less than 80 you don't care if you're killed. My bad.
No, it's just that people can't have opinions if they don't exist.

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Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Yes, it can be.
We could kill off over 90% of the human population to result in a race of intellectuals, but it's inevitable they'd give birth to people with normal intellects, and render the whole genocide moot.

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Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
It'd also benefit society more if there were no elderly, seriously physically or mentally ill,
Except they'd be killed, rather than stopped from being born.

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Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
He meant philosophically. How's the attitude better, not how's the method better.
The attitude I'm proposing results in no deaths, then. Although I don't consider a fetus a person, so I imagine this is a matter of perpsective for some.

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Holy ****, I KNOW THAT! I said that I knew that already and I don't need to be told that like I'm an ignorant bastard.
Come now, let us stay civil. Jae never insulted you.


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Old 09-04-2006, 09:01 PM   #32
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hey, don't go givin' me that crap. you yourself said that you were pro-abortion.


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Last edited by SkinWalker; 09-04-2006 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 09-04-2006, 09:04 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
Within the first trimester, an ultrasound test's detection rate for Down syndrome is 90%–95% with a false positive of 2%–5%.
That's one disorder, one that is actually not generally THAT limiting as far as a person's productivity. Particularly children with Down Syndrome raised in a loving and accepting environment.

Also, it seems that the University of California Children's Hospital disagrees slightly. I actually think MOST doctors will have objections to testing EVERY pregnant woman for the full spectrum of birth defects, due to inherent risks to both mothers and the fetus.


The only reason to call for abortion in this case is because you don't really like them.

And if this manner of societal shaping is okay just because we're doing it with unborn children, then how about we start having IQ tests of parents before they have kids? How often do really stupid people have smart kids? Especially really stupid really poor people. Their kids will likely be a drain on the system. We could initiate a sterilization program! Nobody is getting killed this way, and society as a whole might get smarter. How fantastic!



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Old 09-04-2006, 10:02 PM   #34
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The only reason to call for abortion in this case is because you don't really like them.
Not because I don't like them, but because I feel sorry for them. I feel sorry that they have to live in a world where they are inferior to others and must be treated like pets. I feel sorry for them, because they have no chance of ever living a normal life.

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Originally Posted by ET Warrior
And if this manner of societal shaping is okay just because we're doing it with unborn children, then how about we start having IQ tests of parents before they have kids? How often do really stupid people have smart kids? Especially really stupid really poor people. Their kids will likely be a drain on the system. We could initiate a sterilization program! Nobody is getting killed this way, and society as a whole might get smarter. How fantastic!
That would be impossible first of all, and second it would be an assault on freedom. I'd never suggest there being a law that a defective fetus would be aborted... that's so authoritarian it's disturbing. Nor would I EVER think that stupid people should be banned from reproducing. Sure I would rather they not, but it's their right to do so.
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Old 09-04-2006, 10:12 PM   #35
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I've seen girls at the mall surrounded by their friends and with their mom getting help getting dressed. Should we kill them too? They can't decide what they want to wear, they're wasting precious social contribution time.
The shortage of camwhores that would cause would devastate the Intarnet economy.


Yeah... anyway... this topic is... stupid. The killing of people because they can't contribute to society just sounds wrong to me.

Also, I thought you were pro-choice Emperor Devon.



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Old 09-04-2006, 10:14 PM   #36
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Yeah... anyway... this topic is... stupid. The killing of people because they can't contribute to society just sounds wrong to me.
That's not what this topic is about in the slightest.
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Old 09-04-2006, 10:18 PM   #37
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That's not what this topic is about in the slightest.
Killing sounds more dramatic than aborting.



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Old 09-04-2006, 10:46 PM   #38
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Human sacrifices to the god of Society seems a little backwards. As far as I can tell, Society is supposed to work for me and the other members of it, not the other way around. Kind of like government. It's for the "Greater good"? You've got to be joking; you sound like some wannabe dictator.

TK, you'd deprive them of even what small measure of happiness they could have? You refer to them being treated as pets. Pets seem to have a pretty happy life, and they distribute that happiness to the people around them. Of course, we have to note that they take resources like money to maintain, and they don't give much materially back. I wonder what purpose a pet has. But wait - since we feel sorry for the mentally deficient because they are less capable than we, we should take what they have? Strange sort of philosophy.

In addition, I've never met a mentally disabled person who was not happy. Ever. Just today, I met a woman who works at the local HEB that definitely has a few screws loose. However... when she talks to you, she doesn't care that you're a complete stranger to her. She's happy with her job and life, and when she talks she genuinely cares about what you say in response. I can't say that of many other people, even of those who go to my college and are apparently capable of higher education...


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Old 09-04-2006, 11:26 PM   #39
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Human Fetal sacrifices to the god of Society seems a little backwards.
Fixed.

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As far as I can tell, Society is supposed to work for me and the other members of it, not the other way around. Kind of like government. It's for the "Greater good"? You've got to be joking; you sound like some wannabe dictator.
Society works FOR you if you're a jobless bum living off welfare. Otherwise you're working as a part of society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
TK, you'd deprive them of even what small measure of happiness they could have? You refer to them being treated as pets. Pets seem to have a pretty happy life, and they distribute that happiness to the people around them. Of course, we have to note that they take resources like money to maintain, and they don't give much materially back. I wonder what purpose a pet has. But wait - since we feel sorry for the mentally deficient because they are less capable than we, we should take what they have? Strange sort of philosophy.
Right, being treated as pets when they're not pets. They're humans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
In addition, I've never met a mentally disabled person who was not happy. Ever. Just today, I met a woman who works at the local HEB that definitely has a few screws loose. However... when she talks to you, she doesn't care that you're a complete stranger to her. She's happy with her job and life, and when she talks she genuinely cares about what you say in response. I can't say that of many other people, even of those who go to my college and are apparently capable of higher education...
You'd be happy too if you didn't know any better. And also if you were being cared for by nice people all day and not forced to do anything useful like work.
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Old 09-04-2006, 11:33 PM   #40
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Also, I thought you were pro-choice Emperor Devon.
I'm completely for abortion, and I think it would be a good way to solve this problem.

And everyone else, nowhere in this thread have I advocated the rounding up and shooting of the mentally deficient. Just that that there should be abortions for when a mother finds her child is afflicted with Down Syndrome or some other such disorder.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretooth
We will be great failures one day, you and I
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