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Old 09-04-2006, 11:46 PM   #41
Det. Bart Lasiter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I'm completely for abortion, and I think it would be a good way to solve this problem.

And everyone else, nowhere in this thread have I advocated the rounding up and shooting of the mentally deficient. Just that that there should be abortions for when a mother finds her child is afflicted with Down Syndrome or some other such disorder.
Ahhh, I misread your original post.



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Old 09-05-2006, 12:04 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Ask any doctor or scientist and they will disagree with you.
This one doesn't.


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Originally Posted by TK-8252
Holy ****, I KNOW THAT! I said that I knew that already and I don't need to be told that like I'm an ignorant bastard.
I did not assume you were either ignorant or a b-----d. I was merely explaining my experience with my own children, since most people here do not yet have their own children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK
Not because I don't like them, but because I feel sorry for them. I feel sorry that they have to live in a world where they are inferior to others and must be treated like pets. I feel sorry for them, because they have no chance of ever living a normal life.
Who treats them like pets? I certainly don't. They're people, and I treat them that way. When they come into my office, I give the same respect I give anyone else.

Not everyone's blessed with a brilliant IQ. Maybe they have skills in different areas. My mechanic didn't graduate high school, but he knows more about cars and how to repair them than I ever will know or understand.

A low IQ does not automatically make someone 'inferior'. I challenge you to look beyond the IQ issue and find the things that make these folks unique, and see how they do contribute to life.

And what's a 'normal life'? They may certainly have a simpler life, but that may not be a bad thing. I used to drive an hour or more one way to go work 8 hours in a high-stress job, then come home to try to spend time with my kids and Jimbo and do all the other things that need to get done to run a household. I'm not working that job anymore because the stress was ruining my life. I can't tell you how many other people live like that and it's considered 'normal' so that they can have their 2000 sq foot home, 3 cars, and a TV and cable in every room and 5 computers sitting around the house and maybe spend 15 minutes with their kids as they wolf down dinner to get to the next activity. It's absolutely crazy to live like that, but that's what's considered 'contributing to society'.

The best thing I did for my stress level and my family's stress level was decrease the number of hours I worked outside the home. I'm not making as much money, so we're not buying as much stuff or eating out nearly as often, so I suppose I'm not 'contributing to society' quite as much. However, I'm spending more time with my kids and I have a chance to _live_ life instead of merely surviving the insanity that my life was at one point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor D
But as was stated earlier, it is difficult to tell how severe a baby's disorder is. If having abortions for all babies with disorders that result in mental deficiencies results in also getting rid of the ones with only mild disorders, so be it.
So....condemn those who may really not be impaired in the hopes of preventing some of those who are really impaired? What level of contribution are you expecting in order to allow a pregnancy to be maintained? How can you possibly quantify that in a fetus? I hope our society never becomes that heartless and utilitarian. Life is so much more rich and complex than what we do to contribute to society. Not everything I do contributes to society, and it shouldn't have to. Humans are not machines that we just scrap halfway through production because some engineer discovered a design flaw.


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Old 09-05-2006, 12:04 AM   #43
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Using the term mentally deficient brings in a broad scope of disorders. Including dyslexia, ADHD, and nearly any socially impacting psychological disorder.

So chances are yeah, you've met some and not even realized it. And it also means that if your idea was seen through, the human race would probably go extinct rather quick.


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Old 09-05-2006, 12:32 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
This one doesn't.
Which one are you?

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Who treats them like pets? I certainly don't. They're people, and I treat them that way.
Okay, maybe not like pets... more like toddlers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
When they come into my office, I give the same respect I give anyone else.
So if you were the boss at a movie theater or something and you had someone with Down syndrome working for you, and they spend more time taking breaks, or being confused and helpless, than actually working, you would have no problem whatsoever telling them they're a bad employee and is being fired? Then dealing with the lawsuit that follows? Retarded people are not treated as equals in society. If they did, there would be no such thing as "special education," and they'd be living on the streets without a penny to their name. But we're a caring society, as we should be, and we give special care to people with disabilities even though they're a burden.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Not everyone's blessed with a brilliant IQ. Maybe they have skills in different areas. My mechanic didn't graduate high school, but he knows more about cars and how to repair them than I ever will know or understand.
There's nothing that a retarded person can do that a normal person cannot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
A low IQ does not automatically make someone 'inferior'. I challenge you to look beyond the IQ issue and find the things that make these folks unique, and see how they do contribute to life.
How does it make you unique because you're annoying and are generally a burden on society. Just because they're nice and loving doesn't make them useful. They're about as useful as say, a dog. A dog has to be fed, let outside to take craps, and be kept on a leash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
And what's a 'normal life'?
A life where you can get up, dress yourself, take a shower, make your own food and eat, get in a car and go to your job, and work without special treatment. That's what I'd call a normal life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
I hope our society never becomes that heartless and utilitarian.
It already has. A 2002 review of elective abortion rates found that 91–93% of pregnancies with a diagnosis of Down syndrome were terminated. (Wiki)
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Old 09-05-2006, 12:35 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
So....condemn those who may really not be impaired in the hopes of preventing some of those who are really impaired?
All the better to lose one normal child but have five more normal ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
What level of contribution are you expecting in order to allow a pregnancy to be maintained?
Simply that the child is not mentally retarded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
How can you possibly quantify that in a fetus?
I've read about couples who found out that their child had Down Sydrome, for example, before birth. I know there are tests that can be perfromed as early as 10 weeks. I can go into more depth about them if you'd like, but imagine you already know of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
I hope our society never becomes that heartless and utilitarian.
If you're making an ethical/emotional appeal, you could look at it that the parents will be happier to have a regular child, and that the normal child will be happier to exist than the deficient one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Life is so much more rich and complex than what we do to contribute to society.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. All the more reason to have people who can appreciate the riches it offers over people who can't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Not everything I do contributes to society, and it shouldn't have to.
You are correct, not everything should. But regardless, I imagine you have contributed to society throughout your life more than the average person with Rett Sydrome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
Using the term mentally deficient brings in a broad scope of disorders. Including dyslexia, ADHD, and nearly any socially impacting psychological disorder.
True. How about 'mentally retarded' instead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
So chances are yeah, you've met some and not even realized it.
This isn't terribly relevant to the main topic, but you're welcome to think that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
And it also means that if your idea was seen through, the human race would probably go extinct rather quick.
The idea I proposed of killing off all non-intellectuals was one I did not advocate. If you're reffering to the original idea I posted, how would a very small percentage of mothers having abortions and then trying again lead to the extinction of the human race?


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Originally Posted by Sabretooth
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Old 09-05-2006, 12:36 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Society works FOR you if you're a jobless bum living off welfare. Otherwise you're working as a part of society.
I consider it working for me when people decide that some social deviants are too dangerous to have around, so they get removed from society, like murderers and such. I consider it working for me when it protects my interests, like the kind of legislation that gets passed when a group of like minded people get together. I consider it working for me when the collective decides that it's a good thing to pay for programs that let that bum survive, knowing that bums who won't work are not the only beneficiaries.

Quote:
Right, being treated as pets when they're not pets. They're humans.
They're being treated as they are capable of. I would not treat a child in the same way I would treat a man; they are very different in their capabilities, and my expectations of them are different as well. Likewise, if someone is incapable of something, that does not mean they are worthless, it just means that you're using the wrong person for the job.

Quote:
You'd be happy too if you didn't know any better.
Do you know if you could be happier if your brain function was increased somehow? Does that make your current happiness worth less? Of course not. Two people can be completely happy even if they are quite different in ability. Each person's cup of happiness is full, even though the glassess are different sizes.

Quote:
And also if you were being cared for by nice people all day and not forced to do anything useful like work.
The woman I mentioned was working at HEB (grocery store).

There is a place close to where I live for people with Down's Syndrome. They have a plant nursery business set up, and the people get to live and work on the grounds, and are taught how to live and work in an enviroment they can handle. I'm sure these guys could handle simple jobs like the ones they have there, and that's good - it frees up the more capable people for jobs that can more fully fit their abilities. Having a job that does not demand much does not neccessarily degrade the person. If they are living their life, working their job, to their fullest ability to do so, that's enough to be worthy of respect - regardless of what that job is.

I admit they'd probably be happier if they had nice people who worked with them, but wouldn't we all?


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Old 09-05-2006, 12:56 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
I consider it working for me when people decide that some social deviants are too dangerous to have around, so they get removed from society, like murderers and such. I consider it working for me when it protects my interests, like the kind of legislation that gets passed when a group of like minded people get together. I consider it working for me when the collective decides that it's a good thing to pay for programs that let that bum survive, knowing that bums who won't work are not the only beneficiaries.
That's not society, that's government! Society is brutal and heartless... much like myself it seems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
They're being treated as they are capable of. I would not treat a child in the same way I would treat a man; they are very different in their capabilities, and my expectations of them are different as well. Likewise, if someone is incapable of something, that does not mean they are worthless, it just means that you're using the wrong person for the job.
They do jobs that you could literally train a monkey to do. Imagine how awesome it would be to have a monkey working as a ticket collector at a movie theater. It wouldn't be the greatest employee, but hey, at least it wouldn't ask for a paycheck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
The woman I mentioned was working at HEB (grocery store).

There is a place close to where I live for people with Down's Syndrome. They have a plant nursery business set up, and the people get to live and work on the grounds, and are taught how to live and work in an enviroment they can handle. I'm sure these guys could handle simple jobs like the ones they have there, and that's good - it frees up the more capable people for jobs that can more fully fit their abilities. Having a job that does not demand much does not neccessarily degrade the person. If they are living their life, working their job, to their fullest ability to do so, that's enough to be worthy of respect - regardless of what that job is.
Yeah, and they have those jobs either because the boss is willing to help the people, or the boss is afraid of being sued for discrimination.
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Old 09-05-2006, 01:20 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Yeah, and they have those jobs either because the boss is willing to help the people, or the boss is afraid of being sued for discrimination.
So... kind of like every employment opportunity.

Face it, there's no logical reason to terminate the retarded. Like any human being, if given the opportunity to learn, they will grown and expand their use.

Provide evidence, cold hard facts, to support the claim that they are a burden on society in any fashion more severe than the average person.


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I am life without limit.”
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Old 09-05-2006, 01:57 AM   #49
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You know who I feel sorry for? Poor stupid kids. Seriously now. They don't have much money so they have really crappy toys and clothes, they're not smart so they'll get picked on in school most likely. (The crappy clothes don't help either). They'll probably just drop out of school, work at a menial job that we could train monkeys to do, and create more poor stupid kids.

Sure, they might actually be really happy, have a loving home, meet up with another stupid poor person of the opposite or same gender and live out the rest of their life in sweet bliss, but they're only happy because they don't know any better.

So why am I not allowed my "sterilize poor stupid people" policy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
you could look at it that the parents will be happier to have a regular child
Did you gloss over the part where I told you that was quite untrue? Because that's not true at all. I have a cousin who has one 'normal' and two mentally retarded children. They love all three of them completely, and couldn't possibly be happier, and wouldn't want any of them to be any different. I suppose I cannot speak for your parents, but I guaranTEE my parents would love me NO LESS than they do now were I completely retarded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
A life where you can get up, dress yourself, take a shower, make your own food and eat, get in a car and go to your job, and work without special treatment. That's what I'd call a normal life.
Poor, poor stephen hawking. Unable to lead a normal life. Treated like a pet / toddler. It makes me weep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Yeah, and they have those jobs either because the boss is willing to help the people, or the boss is afraid of being sued for discrimination.
yeah! And that hispanic guy only has a job because of Affirmative Action! And that woman only has her job because she has nice perky boobs. And that kid only got the job because his dad works there. And this could go on, but I hope I've made my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
They're about as useful as say, a dog.
We gonna start aborting dog fetus' too now? Useless to society, away they go?

And still nobody has explained how we can figure out any other "mental disorders" aside from Down Syndrome whilst still in the womb, prior to the development of a Central Nervous System. It really sounds like this is just a ploy to get rid of people with Down Syndrome.

Edit -
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
There's nothing that a retarded person can do that a normal person cannot.
Well...duh? Being retarded doesn't make them super-people, able to do the jobs no mortal man can. There's nothing a normal person can do that a normal person cannot either. This means nothing. They can still DO JOBS. They still function in society. Sure, some don't. Some 'normal' people don't either. Sure, there are some jobs 'normal' people can do that retarded people cannot. There are jobs that I can do that I will imagine many of you cannot.



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Old 09-05-2006, 02:30 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
All the better to lose one normal child but have five more normal ones.
But what if you can't have anymore? Abortion can affect fertility.


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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I've read about couples who found out that their child had Down Sydrome, for example, before birth. I know there are tests that can be perfromed as early as 10 weeks. I can go into more depth about them if you'd like, but imagine you already know of them.
Yep, you hear all about them when you get pregnant. I cheerfully ignored nearly all of the optional tests, too. It wasn't going to make an iota of difference in our (hubby and me) decision to bear our child.

Amnios and CVS can determine the presence of trisomy-21 and other genetic disorders. However, it can't determine or even predict the functional level of that child. Some kids will be very impaired, some will be impaired very little if at all. We don't have anything that says 'this fetus is going to develop into someone with a normal life' and 'this fetus will grow into a person who will be so impaired as to need to live in an institution.
You can detect an abnormal gene pattern, but how much that gene pattern penetrates and how strongly it's expressed can vary so widely it's impossible to predict what the outcome will be.


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Old 09-05-2006, 02:37 AM   #51
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I spend time typing my points, and now you ignore nearly all of them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
But what if you can't have anymore? Abortion can affect fertility.
After one try? Unless it's genetic, having two mentally retarded kids in a row is unlikely. But there's always adoption.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
You can detect an abnormal gene pattern, but how much that gene pattern penetrates and how strongly it's expressed can vary so widely it's impossible to predict what the outcome will be.
True, though I have already addressed this issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
Did you gloss over the part where I told you that was quite untrue? Because that's not true at all.
Given how many people there are in the world with so many different views on things, that does not apply to everyone.

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Originally Posted by ET Warrior
and couldn't possibly be happier,
You can always be happier.

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Originally Posted by ET Warrior
but I guaranTEE my parents would love me NO LESS than they do now were I completely retarded.
I presume that the fact you would be like an overgrown toddler would have no bearing in that?


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Originally Posted by Sabretooth
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Old 09-05-2006, 02:44 AM   #52
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My parents love me because I am their son. Not because I'm a 'contributing member of society'.



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Old 09-05-2006, 02:49 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
My parents love me because I am their son. Not because I'm a 'contributing member of society'.
That's not what I asked. Would your parents be irritated now and then if you required as much care as a 2-year old?


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Old 09-05-2006, 04:40 AM   #54
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That's not what I asked. Would your parents be irritated now and then if you required as much care as a 2-year old?

Parents will be irritated with children now and then regardless of age or level of care needed. This helps you make your point in no way at all. On a side note, Karma's awesome. I swear that one day, I will laugh at you and your retarded offspring.


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Old 09-05-2006, 08:08 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
That's not society, that's government! Society is brutal and heartless... much like myself it seems.
I tend to think that government is (or at least is supposed to be) nothing more than an extension of society's will. It's a fair bet that the general public actually likes that the government does what it's doing, because they're the ones that made it happen in the first place. So when I mentioned those things, it just means that society cared enough about the issue to actually do something substantial about it.

Quote:
They do jobs that you could literally train a monkey to do. Imagine how awesome it would be to have a monkey working as a ticket collector at a movie theater. It wouldn't be the greatest employee, but hey, at least it wouldn't ask for a paycheck.
Would you say the same thing about the Industrial Revolution and how so many people lost their jobs to factories? Man, those guys were so stupid their jobs got taken over by machines with no brain at all. Srsly. Such simple jobs that a machine could do it, and twenty times faster too! At least the machines don't ask for a paycheck; they seem to be more useful to society than those jokers that worked before anyway. These rat cells seem pretty promising too. I bet we could put some pilot out of a job with them soon enough... serves 'em right for doing a job rat cells can do! I mean, can you even imagine something more demeaning than doing a job something else is better/equal at? I bet those cells don't even ask for a paycheck.


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Old 09-05-2006, 11:01 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
No one here is suggesting that we FORCE people to have abortions when a doctor says the fetus is defective... that would make us no better than China.
Eh... look below (bold). That sounds more or less so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I myself think they are a needless burden upon society. They take more than the average citizen, and give less back. Attempts to streamline them into public schools fail miserably from what I've seen and experienced, and asylums for them are a waste of resources. In my opinion, mothers should have abortions when they find out their child has a disorder that results in mental retardation, and thus end the problem and needless drain upon society.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Why are the people here who are pro-choice on abortion such critics of aborting for the reason that the child will be retarded?? If women are going to have the right to an abortion, why is it wrong to abort a defective fetus as opposed to a normal one? Kill the regular kid, instead of the retarded one? Are you guys just so concerned about being politically correct?
I'm for abortion of a child (disabled or not) but what this topic says is that disabled childrens should be aborted because they contribute less to society. It's like we should have some form of policy were the weakest are weeded out.
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Old 09-05-2006, 11:39 AM   #57
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I've read about couples who found out that their child had Down Sydrome, for example, before birth.
Jae asked how you could know the degree of Down's Syndrome, not whether there was Down's Syndrome in the first place.

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I've read about couples who found out that their child had Down Sydrome, for example, before birth.
No ****?!

Quote:
Quote:
So chances are yeah, you've met some and not even realized it.
This isn't terribly relevant to the main topic, but you're welcome to think that.
And you don't?

And yes, it is relevant to the discussion. It shows that "mentally deficient people" aren't necessarily so mentally deficient after all.

Quote:
So why am I not allowed my "sterilize poor stupid people" policy?
Why not abort all low-class fetuses? If a kid's going to grow up in a slum and live on welfare its whole life, why let it live?

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They're about as useful as say, a dog.
Dogs? You mean Man's best friend, which makes life easier for untold numbers of people and

Quote:
There's nothing that a retarded person can do that a normal person cannot.
There's nothing that an African person can do that a normal person cannot. Abort all African fetuses, 100% of them will just grow up to be bullied and beaten all their lives by racists anyhow.

Quote:
I presume that the fact you would be like an overgrown toddler would have no bearing in that?


...Yes?

Heard about "unconditional love"?

As for having more children after a seriously disabled one:
Again, have you heard of parents who dare that? Really? A couple who give birth to a stillborn kid or who learn that the fetus or baby is disabled somehow, and then goes on to create another one?

I never have.

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Old 09-05-2006, 01:34 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I spend time typing my points, and now you ignore nearly all of them?
Well, since it was after 1am my time on a school night, I picked the ones I thought needed an answer then. Nothing personal, I just needed to get some sleep.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
After one try? Unless it's genetic, having two mentally retarded kids in a row is unlikely. But there's always adoption.
And if I want the whole pregnancy experience (and some women do), what choices do I have then? If my biological clock is running out when I have my first child, and it took me 5 years and fertility treatments to get pregnant, then yes, it might be my only shot at having a child.

If I have the right to abort, then I also have the right to continue the pregnancy, since it's my body, after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon

That's not what I asked. Would your parents be irritated now and then if you required as much care as a 2-year old?
(and continued later)
I presume that the fact you would be like an overgrown toddler would have no bearing in that?
I'm not sure how anyone could quantify the amount of love they'd have different if their child was normal vs. retarded.

Having parented toddlers, anyone of them is going to be irritating now and then.
There's no way I can explain adequately parental love for a child. You do anything for that child, and it doesn't matter what the strengths and weaknesses of that child are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK
So if you were the boss at a movie theater or something and you had someone with Down syndrome working for you, and they spend more time taking breaks, or being confused and helpless, than actually working, you would have no problem whatsoever telling them they're a bad employee and is being fired? Then dealing with the lawsuit that follows? Retarded people are not treated as equals in society. If they did, there would be no such thing as "special education," and they'd be living on the streets without a penny to their name. But we're a caring society, as we should be, and we give special care to people with disabilities even though they're a burden.
Darn right I'd fire them if they weren't performing their job, just like I'd fire anyone else. I'm not in a parent situation there, I'm in a manager situation. They have to do the job if they want to continue to stay employed. If not, they need to find a different job. I'm not going to worry about firing them, either. First, a lawsuit is not inevitable. Second, you certainly can fire someone in a 'protected class' for non- or inadequate performance of job duties. I might have to provide documentation to the EEOC if they sued showing repeated misuse of job time, continued non-performance after counseling, and so forth, but it can be done. I'd certainly try to make sure they got the proper training to do the job, but if after that they screw up, and I've re-educated them on what their duties are and my expectations and they're still not doing the job correctly, then yes, firing them is an option.
People don't have a 'right' to be in a specific job. If the job duties are spelled out, the person isn't performing to those standards, or is misusing company time or doing something illegal, then terminate the employment, regardless of what their disability/race/gender status is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK
A 2002 review of elective abortion rates found that 91–93% of pregnancies with a diagnosis of Down syndrome were terminated. (Wiki)
I'd have to surf Medline and research the relevent journal articles to confirm or debate that number.
Even so, it's the mother's/parent's decision to abort, and not something the state/society demands. Obviously, 7-9% feel it's important to carry the baby. That's their right to decide, not society's.
I also don't view them as any more burden on society than those who acquired brain injuries after birth.
The real burdens are those who could work but don't because they can get away with being lazy and mooching off of society.


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Old 09-05-2006, 01:35 PM   #59
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Frankly, the entire premise of this thread is dusgusting, and that's putting it mildly. The idea that a fetus - any fetus - should be aborted based on some arbitrary standard of their contribution to society smacks of Nazi-style eugenics. I personally know many mentally retarded people who do contribute to society, and live very fulfilled lives. I know others who are unable to contribute to society, but whose families don't regret that life because first of all, life is precious, whether the person is mentally disabled or not, and second, working to care for that person has drawn their family together and given them a depth of character that is hard to find in "normal" families.

A person's contribution to society cannot be judged merely by determining pre-birth that they will have some disorder. A person's contribution to society is judged throughout their life. There are homeless people out there who are a much greater "burden to society" than many retarded people. Should we just abort everybody on the off-chance that they might have some mental disorder, or might become a bum?

What's more, a person's contribution to society cannot be measured merely in terms of money. I personally have grown more determined as a person through my experiences of seeing people with disabilities persevere through the adversity that their disablility brings. I would even go so far as to say that many mentally handicapped people have contributed more to society than the financially successful through the life lessons that they can teach those around them simply through their struggle to function in a society that looks down on them.


To arbitrarily condemn someone to death because of some arbitrary standard is reprehensible. It doesn't matter whether you beleive that a fetus is a person or not - you're not even giving them a chance to be a person. Skip the judge and the jury, and head straight to the executioner, because we don't think you're contribution to society will be sufficient to justify you're existence. And no, you don't get to defend yourself, because you haven't even been born yet.

Disgusting.

This thread makes me want to puke.


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Old 09-05-2006, 01:59 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
Not because I don't like them, but because I feel sorry for them. I feel sorry that they have to live in a world where they are inferior to others and must be treated like pets. I feel sorry for them, because they have no chance of ever living a normal life.
Bull****.

Your "I feel sorry for them" is a crappy cover for your deep rooted discrimination. You also say they are inferior and must be treated like pets, I've seen absolutely nothing to support that and ask that you give some citation.

And as for living a normal life, that depends on what you consider a normal life. I, as a so-labeled mentally deficient person, am leading what many would consider a normal life. I have a job, I go to school, I have a social life and interact with many types of people.

Also, you mention special education.

This shows your ignorance on the matter. If you actually knew anything about what you're discussing you would realize the point of special education is not to so much allow them a niche as it is to teach them roles in society and how to interact within society. It's called special education because each curriculum is based upon the particular students needs. And many are rather easily met, even in the most "difficult" cases.

Even when the maximum intellectual capacity is that of a 5 year old, you can teach someone nearly all the information they require to effectively interact with society.


Also your arguement that you can train a monkey to do a job holds no water. There are many jobs a monkey could do, so should we fire the people doing those jobs and replace them with monkeys? That'd be a hell of a lot of people out of work, and would probably spark Charlton Heston into some sort of psychotic rage.


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Old 09-05-2006, 02:25 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Well, since it was after 1am my time on a school night, I picked the ones I thought needed an answer then. Nothing personal, I just needed to get some sleep.
What does jimbo think of how his wife stays up till 1 A.M. on online forums?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
If my biological clock is running out when I have my first child, and it took me 5 years and fertility treatments to get pregnant, then yes, it might be my only shot at having a child.
That percentage of people is small enough, and then having a mentally retarded child makes it an even smaller percentage. But there's always adoption.

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
If I have the right to abort, then I also have the right to continue the pregnancy, since it's my body, after all.
My opinion on the matter might sound loopy to some people, but I disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Having parented toddlers, anyone of them is going to be irritating now and then.
But when they stay that way for the rest of their lives?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Jae asked how you could know the degree of Down's Syndrome, not whether there was Down's Syndrome in the first place.
I have already addressed that issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Again, have you heard of parents who dare that? Really? A couple who give birth to a stillborn kid or who learn that the fetus or baby is disabled somehow, and then goes on to create another one?
Can't say I have, though it's likely. If you give birth to something that died in the womb, why not try again? You'd wanted a kid in the first place. If I ever wanted children and that was the result, I see nothing wrong with trying again.

I don't see why people are reacting in such a manner to this. All I'm proposing are abortions for if the child is mentally retarded. I have not and will not suggest rounding up and shooting people.


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Old 09-05-2006, 02:37 PM   #62
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Can't say I have, though it's likely. If you give birth to something that died in the womb, why not try again?
Because it's not exactly fun to lose a kid or make a kid that's "wrong" somehow. It's a disappointment, to say the least.

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Old 09-05-2006, 02:39 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
But when they stay that way for the rest of their lives?
I've met many people like this. They're not retarded, simply dependent upon others. It could simply be a product of their upbringing (they were spoiled, etc.) or it could just be the fashion that their brain developed.

As it stands, the only point in the birth process at which you could, with any degree of accuracy, tell if a child is going to be born a retarded "burden" upon society is when the child has already crossed over the line into which they are representably human. Thought process has begun, genetics are completely in line, etc.

And as for rounding up and shooting. If that's not what you advocate, then you should re-think your reasoning for your beliefs, since they open the door to proposed ideas of just rounding up burdens and destroying them.


I think the biggest issue with this thread is the lack of understanding of human psychology and the proponents of this threads topic appear rather ignorant and uninformed of essentially every matter being discussed.


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Old 09-05-2006, 02:45 PM   #64
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The simple fact is, all people are dependant on other people. From the food you eat, the clothes you wear, what you use for transportation, entertainment, etc...It bothers you that retarded people create jobs for the people who help families care for them? That's retarded all by itself.


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Old 09-05-2006, 03:50 PM   #65
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All I'm proposing are abortions for if the child is mentally retarded.
The arrogance.

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Old 09-05-2006, 04:06 PM   #66
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The simple fact is, all people are dependant on other people. From the food you eat, the clothes you wear, what you use for transportation, entertainment, etc...It bothers you that retarded people create jobs for the people who help families care for them?
I thought about that, too.

The people who work for challenged people - do you want them to lose their jobs?

Quote:
I don't see why people are reacting in such a manner to this. All I'm proposing are abortions for if the child is mentally retarded. I have not and will not suggest rounding up and shooting people.
What if you were? You could still say, "I don't see why you're so upset, I'm not suggesting dropping nuclear bombs here".

Just that you're not suggestion something even worse, does not mean what you're suggesting is OK.

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Old 09-05-2006, 04:23 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Prime
The arrogance.
No one's even dying. Again, I'm not proposing any executions. Everyone would benefit. How is that so bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
The people who work for challenged people - do you want them to lose their jobs?
The exact same set of skills could be applied to taking care of small children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Because it's not exactly fun to lose a kid or make a kid that's "wrong" somehow. It's a disappointment, to say the least.
I agree, it would be most depressing. But there's no reason not to try again.


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Old 09-05-2006, 04:52 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by El Sitherino
So... kind of like every employment opportunity.
I don't get what you mean.

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Originally Posted by El Sitherino
Face it, there's no logical reason to terminate the retarded.
Then why in 2002 were 91–93% of pregnancies with Down syndrome terminated?

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Originally Posted by El Sitherino
Provide evidence, cold hard facts, to support the claim that they are a burden on society in any fashion more severe than the average person.
They can't work? They can't drive? They can't eat? They can't learn like regular people? They have medical complications that regular people don't usually have? They act like toddlers all of their life?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
So why am I not allowed my "sterilize poor stupid people" policy?
Because that's murder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
Poor, poor stephen hawking. Unable to lead a normal life. Treated like a pet / toddler. It makes me weep.
It's quite sad indeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
yeah! And that hispanic guy only has a job because of Affirmative Action! And that woman only has her job because she has nice perky boobs. And that kid only got the job because his dad works there. And this could go on, but I hope I've made my point.
Not sure what your point is, because what you've said are very true in some cases. Not all cases but some.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
We gonna start aborting dog fetus' too now? Useless to society, away they go?
There are dogs and cats being killed every day in pounds and it's very sad. It is however something that is necessary simply because there's not enough owners to go around.

Dogs actually do though have skills that a human doesn't have. Bomb-sniffing dogs for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
And still nobody has explained how we can figure out any other "mental disorders" aside from Down Syndrome whilst still in the womb, prior to the development of a Central Nervous System. It really sounds like this is just a ploy to get rid of people with Down Syndrome.
Because Down syndrome is the biggest "offender" so to speak. I'm sure someone could do a quick search on Wikipedia and find out about all kinds of other disabilities and their diagnosis rates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
Would you say the same thing about the Industrial Revolution and how so many people lost their jobs to factories? Man, those guys were so stupid their jobs got taken over by machines with no brain at all. Srsly. Such simple jobs that a machine could do it, and twenty times faster too! At least the machines don't ask for a paycheck; they seem to be more useful to society than those jokers that worked before anyway. These rat cells seem pretty promising too. I bet we could put some pilot out of a job with them soon enough... serves 'em right for doing a job rat cells can do! I mean, can you even imagine something more demeaning than doing a job something else is better/equal at? I bet those cells don't even ask for a paycheck.
It's true that a machine can actually do a better job than workers when it comes to certain things. But all that means is that the workers who are now out of a job must now learn a more complex skill and adapt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Why not abort all low-class fetuses? If a kid's going to grow up in a slum and live on welfare its whole life, why let it live?
It would actually be ideal for society if poor people didn't have kids. I'm totally against widespread abortion of course, as I've said previously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Dogs? You mean Man's best friend, which makes life easier for untold numbers of people and
They only make life easier for cops...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
There's nothing that an African person can do that a normal person cannot. Abort all African fetuses, 100% of them will just grow up to be bullied and beaten all their lives by racists anyhow.
OOH I've got an idea. They should have aborted every fetus in Japan during WWII, right Dagobahn??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
That's their right to decide, not society's.
Uh... of course it is. No one in this thread has said that it's not the mother's choice. This thread is about whether it's a better decision to abort a fetus that will be retarded... which is something that 91-93% of all women pregnant with a retarded fetus apparently believe is right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
I also don't view them as any more burden on society than those who acquired brain injuries after birth.
That's true. But that brain-injured person is already born, so it's kinda TOO LATE to abort their fetus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rccar328
The idea that a fetus - any fetus - should be aborted based on some arbitrary standard of their contribution to society smacks of Nazi-style eugenics.
So are you saying that 91-93% of all women pregnant with a retarded fetus are following Nazi eugenics??

Hehe gotta love the Hitler card.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rccar328
I personally know many mentally retarded people who do contribute to society, and live very fulfilled lives.
Imagine how much greater their life would be if they weren't disabled for their entire life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rccar328
life is precious
Except the lives of Iraqi civilians? Or Lebanese civilians? Or... never mind, I could go on and on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rccar328
It doesn't matter whether you beleive that a fetus is a person or not - you're not even giving them a chance to be a person.
That's what any abortion - even any form of birth control or contraception for that matter - does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rccar328
And no, you don't get to defend yourself, because you haven't even been born yet.
Because you don't even exist yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rccar328
Disgusting.

This thread makes me want to puke.
91-93% of pregnant women with a retarded fetus would disagree with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
Your "I feel sorry for them" is a crappy cover for your deep rooted discrimination. You also say they are inferior and must be treated like pets, I've seen absolutely nothing to support that and ask that you give some citation.
Yes, because you certainly know my inner-most thoughts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
And as for living a normal life, that depends on what you consider a normal life. I, as a so-labeled mentally deficient person, am leading what many would consider a normal life. I have a job, I go to school, I have a social life and interact with many types of people.
I'd certainly not label you as someone who is mentally deficient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
Even when the maximum intellectual capacity is that of a 5 year old, you can teach someone nearly all the information they require to effectively interact with society.
How many years does it take and how many specialists does it take to accomplish such a task?

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
Also your arguement that you can train a monkey to do a job holds no water. There are many jobs a monkey could do, so should we fire the people doing those jobs and replace them with monkeys? That'd be a hell of a lot of people out of work, and would probably spark Charlton Heston into some sort of psychotic rage.
That would be sweet. We can fire all the low-level workers and teach them how to train the monkeys instead!
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Old 09-05-2006, 06:41 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
So are you saying that 91-93% of all women pregnant with a retarded fetus are following Nazi eugenics??
Yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Imagine how much greater their life would be if they weren't disabled for their entire life.
Geez...so instead of killing them before they're even born, how about working on a cure? There's a name for killing someone just because they're disabled and don't meet your arbitrary standard of living: it's called evil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
91-93% of pregnant women with a retarded fetus would disagree with you.
Evil by the numbers is still evil.


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Old 09-05-2006, 06:46 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by rccar328
There's a name for killing someone just because they're disabled and don't meet your arbitrary standard of living: it's called evil.
Uh... how is aborting a fetus somehow the same as killing a living person.

You're going to have to explain that one to me.
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Old 09-05-2006, 07:15 PM   #71
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Quote:
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Then why in 2002 were 91–93% of pregnancies with Down syndrome terminated?
Probably the same reason a lot of abortions take place. You assume they were aborted simply because of the fact they had DS.
I'm sure if you look at a lot of abortions many of them will contain diseases and disorders. Whether that had any play in the decision of whether to abort or not is unknown to us, and to use a statistic like that as an arguement is foolish.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
They can't work?
Untrue. Go to wal-mart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
They can't drive?
Neither can a lot of people, what does this have to do with their ability to interact with society? Many places around the world have minimal automobile usage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
They can't eat?
... Uh... wow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
They can't learn like regular people?
... No one learns the same, if you're going to argue that they don't meet some standard then you better be prepared to end a lot of lives.
Not to mention there are many people that suffer from learning disorders, they however are not retarded. They simply have an exotic thought process. Their brain handles information in a much more unique fashion. Are you saying we should abort those fetus' as well?

Once again, this will bring about an end to the human race.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
They have medical complications that regular people don't usually have?
So do epileptics, diabetics, people with celiac disease,, people with ADHD, the list could go on.

Are we to abort them all?


Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
They act like toddlers all of their life?
So do nearly all the people on the TCU campus, should we abort everyone that will be going to TCU?


Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Because that's murder?
So is abortion when done on a developed fetus. Thought process = awareness = life. Therefore termination = murder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Bomb-sniffing dogs for example.
I'm sure we can find a bomb-sniffing autistic kid somewhere.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Because Down syndrome is the biggest "offender" so to speak. I'm sure someone could do a quick search on Wikipedia and find out about all kinds of other disabilities and their diagnosis rates.
The burden of that lies upon you and Devon. Since you guys are the ones advocating the abortion of "mentally deficient" people. And since I've seen you share the sentiment that a child is alive when the thought process begins, you're on a slippery slope of being a hypocrite.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
It would actually be ideal for society if poor people didn't have kids.
How, exactly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
I'm totally against widespread abortion of course, as I've said previously.
Not really, if you truely believe the words you say.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
They only make life easier for cops...
If you ignore several major catastrophic events as well as the daily life of a lot of people.
Pets provide an emotional support to people that cannot be recreated, same with kids.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Uh... of course it is. No one in this thread has said that it's not the mother's choice.
Your cries to "liberals" earlier gives a different impression.

Pro-choice means pro-choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
This thread is about whether it's a better decision to abort a fetus that will be retarded... which is something that 91-93% of all women pregnant with a retarded fetus apparently believe is right.
Support that claim, numbers don't mean ****. You claim these women aborted simply on the reason that they don't want a tard for a child.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
So are you saying that 91-93% of all women pregnant with a retarded fetus are following Nazi eugenics??
Gotta love blind assumptions based on ignorance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Imagine how much greater their life would be if they weren't disabled for their entire life.
Imagine how much greater life would be if *.

What if's and idealistic dreams are not a proper arguement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
91-93% of pregnant women with a retarded fetus would disagree with you.
Prove it or just stop talking.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
I'd certainly not label you as someone who is mentally deficient.
Medical science would. Clearly your lack of understanding a term you use freely shows that you have no place in an arguement of this kind.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
How many years does it take and how many specialists does it take to accomplish such a task?
A few years and a teacher that knows what they're doing. It's not that difficult. Since they're essentially child-like in mind for their life, they're very impressionable and learn quite well. It's simply about figuring out how to get to them, but then again it's the same with any child.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
That would be sweet. We can fire all the low-level workers and teach them how to train the monkeys instead!
Get me a milkshake you damn dirty ape!


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Old 09-05-2006, 07:40 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
The burden of that lies upon you and Devon. Since you guys are the ones advocating the abortion of "mentally deficient" people. And since I've seen you share the sentiment that a child is alive when the thought process begins, you're on a slippery slope of being a hypocrite.
I would hesitate to call a fetus a living, sentient being.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
That would be sweet. We can fire all the low-level workers and teach them how to train the monkeys instead!
It would definitely result in the declination of the prostitution industry.


Quote:
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Old 09-05-2006, 07:45 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Uh... how is aborting a fetus somehow the same as killing a living person.

You're going to have to explain that one to me.
Whether you call it a "fetus" or a "person", it's still a human being. People, in their arrogance and complacency, try to mince words and re-define what it takes to be a "person" so that they won't have to deal with the inconvenience of having a child...hence the popularity of abortion.

Aborting babies due to mental disabilities is no different from killing adults with mental handicaps...you're just killing them sooner, rather than later. But this issue has already been played out in the abortion thread, so it's not really worth getting into here.


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Old 09-05-2006, 08:03 PM   #74
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Let's keep the abortions/is-a-fetus-a-human debate to the abortion thread.

This thread is about thoughts on people with "mental deficiencies."

No need to derail this thread anymore than it has.
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Old 09-05-2006, 08:14 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
A couple who give birth to a stillborn kid or who learn that the fetus or baby is disabled somehow, and then goes on to create another one?
I actually have a cousin whose first child was stillborn, she has 4 kids now. So I have

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
But when they stay that way for the rest of their lives?
I still annoy my parents in a routine fashion, and I don't even live with them. Children are annoying, people are annoying. Unconditional love is just that. Unconditional. No conditions. You don't love a child less because they aren't as smart as the other kids. End O' Story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Not sure what your point is, because what you've said are very true in some cases. Not all cases but some.
I suppose Sith and I weren't clear enough. You said, the only reason they will get a job is because the manager wants to help them or they feel bad for them. But in those kind of jobs, the only reason ANYONE gets the job is because the manager likes them more, or feels sorry for them, or just wants to help out. There is no standard of excellence for people to wash windows at McDonalds. No one person is more qualified than another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
They can't learn like regular people?
My sister is going to marry a man soon who has a severe learning disability. He doesn't learn like most people, it takes him much longer to learn anything new, and he has struggled his whole life getting through school. Shall I proclaim at the wedding reception that he should have been aborted so as to not burden society with his inability to learn like I do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Dogs actually do though have skills that a human doesn't have.
So we can do selective dog abortions then. Only abort the useless breeds in an effort to improve society. Cool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
I'm totally against widespread abortion of course
Unless they're retards. Widespread retard abotion is A-okay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
OOH I've got an idea. They should have aborted every fetus in Japan during WWII, right Dagobahn??
Walking the ad-hominem line? Anywho, those babies probably would've just grown up to fight in the war if it hadn't ended, and that much war is bad for our society, so it seems reasonable enough following the logic presented by this retard-abortion schema.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Hehe gotta love the Hitler card.
If the shoe fits...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Imagine how much greater their life would be if they weren't disabled for their entire life.
Imagine how much not greater their life would be if they were aborted. And how do you know their life would be any better? There are a TON of 'normal' people who HATE their lives and end up killing themselves. Maybe they would have been one of those people if they weren't handicapped in some way. Do you know? I suspect you don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Yes, because you certainly know my inner-most thoughts.
Maybe not, but the "I feel sorry for them" line is worthless, as there are LOTS of people to feel sorry for, but just because you feel bad at their current situation doesn't mean they shouldn't have ever existed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
How many years does it take and how many specialists does it take to accomplish such a task?
Oh I don't know, since they're usually involved in special education programs from the time most kids would start school, all through high school, and maybe a few years after...I'd say no longer than any average person who made it through high school on average.



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Old 09-05-2006, 10:16 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by El Sitherino
Probably the same reason a lot of abortions take place. You assume they were aborted simply because of the fact they had DS.
I'm sure if you look at a lot of abortions many of them will contain diseases and disorders. Whether that had any play in the decision of whether to abort or not is unknown to us, and to use a statistic like that as an arguement is foolish.
Apparently that's why, considering what the study shows.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/c...TRY=1&SRETRY=0

That's the study that Wikipedia cites for their number. It appears to be a European thing.

The study says that abortion rates for Klinefelter syndrome were 50-66%. It seems that less people want a Down child than a Klinefelter child.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
Untrue. Go to wal-mart.
Okay, I rephrase all of the items in that list. They can't do those things well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
Neither can a lot of people, what does this have to do with their ability to interact with society? Many places around the world have minimal automobile usage
Where I live, considering that there's no sidewalks, bike lanes, or public buses, it would be incredibly difficult to really do ANYTHING in life without the ability to drive to do it. In a city it's a different situation however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
... Uh... wow.
Hey. If you guys can all be overly dramatic then so can I.

Of course they CAN EAT, but they have much more difficulty in doing so than regular kids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
... No one learns the same, if you're going to argue that they don't meet some standard then you better be prepared to end a lot of lives.
Not to mention there are many people that suffer from learning disorders, they however are not retarded. They simply have an exotic thought process. Their brain handles information in a much more unique fashion. Are you saying we should abort those fetus' as well?

Once again, this will bring about an end to the human race.

[...]

So do epileptics, diabetics, people with celiac disease,, people with ADHD, the list could go on.

Are we to abort them all?
That's a fair point, but someone with DS is going to learn with much more difficulty than someone who's got dyslexia or ADHD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
So do nearly all the people on the TCU campus, should we abort everyone that will be going to TCU?
What is that, the Texas Christian University? Hey... NOW I like how you're thinking!

JUST KIDDING.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
So is abortion when done on a developed fetus. Thought process = awareness = life. Therefore termination = murder.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...110902079.html

DS can be detected within the first trimester.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
How, exactly?
Well, poor parents can't afford to raise a kid, and it just drags them all into poverty where they ALL will burden society. But that's a different issue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
Not really, if you truely believe the words you say.
Targeting specific cases such as rape, incest, and retardation would not be very widespread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
If you ignore several major catastrophic events as well as the daily life of a lot of people.
Pets provide an emotional support to people that cannot be recreated, same with kids.
Ooh I forgot about guide dogs for blind people.

Yes, pets can be great for people emotionally. They are a form of entertainment for the owner(s) - a retarded human really shouldn't be used as a form of entertainment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
Your cries to "liberals" earlier gives a different impression.

Pro-choice means pro-choice.
Not sure what you mean here either. I'm pro-choice on abortion... people should have the right to make up their own mind on getting an abortion (within a certain time period, of course). This thread is about opinion, not what the official policy should be. That's saved for the abortion threads. My opinion is that society would be better off if they gave birth to healthy babies, that simple. Is that a Nazi utilitarian attitude? You have the right to your opinion just like I have a right to mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
Support that claim, numbers don't mean ****. You claim these women aborted simply on the reason that they don't want a tard for a child.

[...]

Gotta love blind assumptions based on ignorance.

[...]

Prove it or just stop talking.
I've covered this in this post earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
Medical science would. Clearly your lack of understanding a term you use freely shows that you have no place in an arguement of this kind.
Medical science would. Perhaps that's why I'm not a medical scientist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
I suppose Sith and I weren't clear enough. You said, the only reason they will get a job is because the manager wants to help them or they feel bad for them. But in those kind of jobs, the only reason ANYONE gets the job is because the manager likes them more, or feels sorry for them, or just wants to help out. There is no standard of excellence for people to wash windows at McDonalds. No one person is more qualified than another.
Sometimes it's because the girl's got a nice ass. Sometimes it's because the company really needs an employee. But I'd find it bizarre if a boss would hire a DS over a regular kid if it wasn't because they felt bad for the retarded person or they just wanted to help them out, even though they'll get less work out of them than from a regular kid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
My sister is going to marry a man soon who has a severe learning disability. He doesn't learn like most people, it takes him much longer to learn anything new, and he has struggled his whole life getting through school. Shall I proclaim at the wedding reception that he should have been aborted so as to not burden society with his inability to learn like I do?
Does that man have DS or some other form of severe mental retardation? Or is it just a learning disability?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
So we can do selective dog abortions then. Only abort the useless breeds in an effort to improve society. Cool.
Do doctors perform abortions on dogs anyway? That'd be bizarre.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
Unless they're retards. Widespread retard abotion is A-okay
A lot of women seem to agree with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
Walking the ad-hominem line? Anywho, those babies probably would've just grown up to fight in the war if it hadn't ended, and that much war is bad for our society, so it seems reasonable enough following the logic presented by this retard-abortion schema.
That was sarcasm that I just had to throw in there. I DO find it ironic how you could support atomic bombings of civilians but then call selective abortion of Down syndrome an evil Nazi scheme.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
If the shoe fits...
Which it doesn't, of course. Abortion is not in any way the same as millions killed in concentration camps and gas chambers. To say so would be insulting every single victim of the Nazi death camps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
Imagine how much not greater their life would be if they were aborted.
That line sounds like something an anti-abortion rights activist would say about ALL abortion in general. Why do we have ANY abortion if any life - no matter how miserable - is better than no life at all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
And how do you know their life would be any better? There are a TON of 'normal' people who HATE their lives and end up killing themselves. Maybe they would have been one of those people if they weren't handicapped in some way. Do you know? I suspect you don't.
No I don't know. But I do know that people who hate their lives do so because they screwed it up somewhere along the line, or they don't have the courage to face their problems and fix them. Make your life better. If you're not retarded you CAN do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
Maybe not, but the "I feel sorry for them" line is worthless, as there are LOTS of people to feel sorry for, but just because you feel bad at their current situation doesn't mean they shouldn't have ever existed.
Lots of people to feel sorry for, yes. But people can turn their lives around and become functional members of society. Retarded people can never become regular people and that's what's the most saddening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
Oh I don't know, since they're usually involved in special education programs from the time most kids would start school, all through high school, and maybe a few years after...I'd say no longer than any average person who made it through high school on average.
And who pays for all those special programs and education? Surely that would be pretty damn expensive. What about parents who can't afford to pay the bill?
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Old 09-06-2006, 12:53 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
What does jimbo think of how his wife stays up till 1 A.M. on online forums?
Hey, he was playing Morrowind. As long as it doesn't involve men wearing less than the Chippendales men, he's fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK
Uh... of course it is. No one in this thread has said that it's not the mother's choice.
Actually, Emperor Devon did say, or imply that it should not be the mother's choice, as I note below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
If I have the right to abort, then I also have the right to continue the pregnancy, since it's my body, after all.
My opinion on the matter might sound loopy to some people, but I disagree.
That would violate my rights to carry a baby to term and my right to raise a Down's or mentally retarded child. How is that 'pro-choice'?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor D
No one's even dying. Again, I'm not proposing any executions. Everyone would benefit. How is that so bad?
I heard my children's heartbeats at 10 weeks gestation. I first felt them move at about 16 weeks along. I saw them moving on ultrasounds, and even saw one of my kids sucking her thumb at about 20 weeks. My son had hiccups every day from about week 35 on. They responded to my voice. They were very much alive well before they were born.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK
This thread is about whether it's a better decision to abort a fetus that will be retarded... which is something that 91-93% of all women pregnant with a retarded fetus apparently believe is right
Well, something about that number made my crap detector redline, but I didn't have a chance to do some real research until today. The article you quote is from an article that was published in the journal Prenatal Diagnosis. When I checked out this article and journal, I learned a couple things.

First, the journal is published by a company called Wiley Interscience. Most reputable journals are peer-reviewed and published out of university centers, not by corporations. The writers are generally scientists and doctors who work in academic centers and don't have a financial interest in the research. I do not know how Wiley reviews articles for publication because it's not listed on their site, though I didn't do an exhaustive search. I don't know if the articles that get published in that journal go through the same rigorous review that articles for more well known academic journals go through.

Second, when I looked at the article itself, it was a literature review. The only problem was that it was very specific in which articles it included in order to come up with this particular statistic. If articles didn't meet the inclusion criteria, their data was discarded. This makes me extremely suspicious of manipulation of data in order to come up with a certain outcome.

So, I went to Medline to do a little research, using the phrase "termination rate after prenatal diagnosis of Down's syndrome". I found several articles that clearly show that the termination rate was not anywhere close to the 90+% found in the article in the Prenatal Diagnosis journal.

Note that these links are to Medscape's free version of Medline--you may have to become a member in order to view it.

The BJOG (international OB/GYN journal) noted in this article that the prevalence of live births after a diagnosis of Down's decreased by an age-adjusted 13%.

A Singapore Medical Journal article noted the birth prevalence of Down's syndrome babies for those who had a prenatal diagnosis of Down's. There were 295 live births, 4 stillbirths, and 197 abortions. This is a 39.7% abortion rate, not the 90+% range.

A journal article in Pediatric Perinatal Epidemiology noted that in the north of England, the termination rate was 38% between 1995-1999

And, interestingly (at least to me), this article in Lancet showed that having Down's had a protective effect against cancer--the rate of death from cancer was less than one tenth as often as expected with the exception of leukemia.

Your assertion that 90+% of all women with a prenatal diagnosis of Down's decide to terminate the pregnancy is based on a Wiki article (hardly peer reviewed material there) that cites a flawed study in a journal that may have a financial and/or political agenda.

What does forced abortion of Down's/genetic mental problems do?
1. Violates my rights as a woman to determine whether I carry that child or not.
2. Violates my rights to have a family on my own terms
3. Encourages discrimination against those who have Down's who are already alive. If the Unborn Down's children are inferior, then by extension so are those who've been born.
4. Violates my religious rights--I believe that life begins at conception. By forcing me to kill my unborn child, you are forcing me to violate my religious beliefs.
5. Re-instates a state program on eugenics. We've already seen how that was abused not only in WWII but in many other countries with forced sterilization programs. I don't think we want to return to that level of crude behavior 'in the name of science'.
6. Discourages alternative research on gene therapies. It would be much better to work on cures and treatments than just killing those affected fetuses.


And, just because these were so darned funny....
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sithy
I'm sure we can find a bomb-sniffing autistic kid somewhere.

(tongue completely in cheek) I bet you could find a bloodhound cerebral palsy kid too, and a seeing-eye guide-Down's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
So we can do selective dog abortions then. Only abort the useless breeds in an effort to improve society. Cool.
Good. Please do. Maybe we can get rid of all those stupid ankle-biter yappy dogs that I can't stand.


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Old 09-06-2006, 01:17 AM   #78
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Jae Onasi,

Wonderful post and an exceptional bit of debunking. I hope you stick around this forum for a while

As to Wiley Interscience, I can tell you that I've always found them to be a very reputable publishing house. In fact, most peer-reviewed journals are actually private, for-profit ventures. The peer-review part is what's important and, while referring standards vary slightly from journal to journal (even within a major publishing house like WI), I've yet to see any problems with Wiley. I've used several of their journals over the years in various research topics: American Journal of Physical Anthropology; The Human Fossil Record (actually an online book); Environmental Toxicology; etc.

Blackwell Synergy, Nature Publishing, ScienceDirect, Kluwer, etc... they're all private publishing houses and have top-notch journals.

Still, your analysis was spot on and informative.


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Old 09-06-2006, 01:28 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Hey, he was playing Morrowind. As long as it doesn't involve men wearing less than the Chippendales men, he's fine.
And not Oblivion? Good gawd, your husband is old-fashioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
That would violate my rights to carry a baby to term and my right to raise a Down's or mentally retarded child. How is that 'pro-choice'?
Read my posts in this thread, or anywhere else. I have never said I am pro-choice. Only that I support abortion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
I heard my children's heartbeats at 10 weeks gestation. I first felt them move at about 16 weeks along. I saw them moving on ultrasounds, and even saw one of my kids sucking her thumb at about 20 weeks. My son had hiccups every day from about week 35 on. They responded to my voice. They were very much alive well before they were born.
And just as sentient as the ankle-biter dogs you want to be rid of.

Completely seriously, I do not think babies count at such an early age. Hence why I support abortion, and not the random killing of babies. You can argue otherwise, but the definition of when something is alive varies among many people. There is no solid definition (that I know of) for how many weeks constitutes a baby as alive. To me, such an act is not murder. To others, it probably is.


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Old 09-06-2006, 01:51 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Okay, I rephrase all of the items in that list. They can't do those things well.
So now we determine a persons worth by how well they can do tasks? My ultimate goal of eliminating stupid people shall come to fruition!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Where I live, considering that there's no sidewalks, bike lanes, or public buses, it would be incredibly difficult to really do ANYTHING in life without the ability to drive to do it.
I'm going to go ahead and say that's a pretty rare damned thing to have an entire town that doesn't even have sidewalks to get people from point A to point B. Even so, there's still the option of having somebody ELSE drive you places. And don't even try to say that's an unacceptable solution because I've had to drive my roommate places for the past year because he didn't have a car, and it's never bothered me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Of course they CAN EAT, but they have much more difficulty in doing so than regular kids.
And since it's harder for them, by god they shouldn't have the opportunity to have to do so. We wouldn't want life to be HARD for anyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
They are a form of entertainment for the owner
Have you like, never actually HAD a pet? I think very few people buy animals so they'll have entertainment. They're a companion. A creature that you love and hopefully loves you back, that you can always have around when you come home. I'm not saying retarded people are like pets, but they're certainly not around just as a source of entertainment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
But I'd find it bizarre if a boss would hire a DS over a regular kid if it wasn't because they felt bad for the retarded person or they just wanted to help them out, even though they'll get less work out of them than from a regular kid.
Maybe it was because the kid with Down Syndrome was really nice, personable and friendly, and the other applicants were *******s. I'd find it odd if a boss hired a really stupid hot girl over a nice intelligent guy, but that sure happens. Should we start aborting the girls of pretty people?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Does that man have DS or some other form of severe mental retardation? Or is it just a learning disability?
A learning disability. But again, You cannot tell before birth HOW SEVERE the mental disabilities a child will have are going to be. There are people with Down Syndrome who have VERY little mental retardation, and are quite near to fully functional. Some aren't. If you're going to arbitrarily condemn all people with Down Syndrome, then you are okay with aborting people with any kind of mental disability. To say otherwise is pure hypocricy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Do doctors perform abortions on dogs anyway? That'd be bizarre.
No time like the present to start. If we're going to improve society we must not dilly-dally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Which it doesn't, of course.
I find it odd that all but seemingly 2 or 3 people all think it does. I've even discussed this outside the forums with all manner of people I know and they've all had the same reaction. This is very much analogous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
If you're not retarded you CAN do that.
And yet so many don't...and so many retarded people are perfectly content and lead happy fullfilling lives. Huh. Must suck to be so happy. And why can't a retarded person improve their lives? Sure, they can't make themselves not retarded, but paralyzed people can't make themselves not paralyzed, but they could improve their life in plenty of ways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
Retarded people can never become regular people and that's what's the most saddening.
Oh please. Starving children in Africa cannot improve their situation. Most people in war-torn countries cannot improve their situation. Plenty of people in extreme poverty cannot improve their situation. Extremely stupid people will always be stupid, no matter how much they try. Don't try to pull this pity bull****, because nobody is buying it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
And who pays for all those special programs and education? Surely that would be pretty damn expensive. What about parents who can't afford to pay the bill?
It's called the special education program of public school. Last time I checked, the government footed the bill for public education.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Good. Please do. Maybe we can get rid of all those stupid ankle-biter yappy dogs that I can't stand.
I'm hoping to get rid of all the tiny ones, particularly the ones the sorority girls carry around in their oversized purses around campus here. How I hate them so.

Edit - By the by TK....where the hell do you LIVE? You don't have SIDEWALKS? What do they put next to the roads? More roads?




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