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Old 09-26-2006, 04:49 PM   #41
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If lawmaking were as sexy as UFOs invading the Earth, we'd all be glued to C-Span.
No, no, not the law-making, humans fighting each others over mines!

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Old 09-26-2006, 09:27 PM   #42
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Funny how no one makes movies about that. It's a thousand times more likely than UFOs invading Earth. Oh well.
No movies that I can think of,.. but several sci-fi books used that as a theme.

The first one that springs to mind are Stephen R. Donaldson's Gap cycle.

But I think Larry Niven had a few books with conflicts over space mining as a plot point... I think. (It's been a very long time since I've read any Niven...)


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Old 09-26-2006, 10:56 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
No, no, not the law-making, humans fighting each others over mines!
Humor mode way, way on....Oooh, Mine TV! Sweaty dirty men battle it out to see who can bring up the biggest load of ore while company presidents battle it out on the golf course, and the United Planets sits in endless committees passing cease-and-desist orders that the companies completely ignore. Ah, the intrigue. Sign me up!


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Old 09-28-2006, 12:02 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Scandinavian Science Illustrated ran two interesting articles some issues away from each others. One was about mining of uninhabited moons and asteroids by means of mining robots, one was about the problems bound to result from the fact that there can be no sovereignity, ownership, or even laws away from Earth. So in effect, if mining becomes large-scale (by means of unmanned robots), we can expect hostilities to occur unless laws, agreements, and treaties are changed.

Funny how no one makes movies about that. It's a thousand times more likely than UFOs invading Earth. Oh well.

Empire Earth had an expansion pack with a campaign enacting just that scenario.

Man colonizes Mars, a union of Asian nations ("UFAR", or the "United Federation of Asian Republics") drives every other nation off Mars, making Mars a territory of UFAR; the UFAR government on Earth treats the colony unfairly; The colony rebels and declares sovereignity; A fight erupts between Earth (including its Lunar colony) and Mars; Mars wins, becoming an independent nation.

If the campaign isn't inspired by the events that brought about the birth of the USA, I'll eat my blaster pistol.

Bottom line: While Windu seems to want star fleets just for the sake of coolness of star fleets, the rest of us really do not see a need. There are no UFOs about, there's no war going on down on Earth that requires space superiority, and we wouldn't need whole fleets of warships to intercept asteroids (and according to astronomers, we still have 400 years before we'll intersect the course of a large object that's maybe going to collide with us).
The U.S. military and NATO is interested in space dominance, they have had the worry about protecting satellites from adversaries. Satellite Protection
This is where the interest of spacefleets came in, for future of Earth.
Of course when we start to explore solar system and colonize Mars or Venus ,if we ever figue out how the hell to colonize Venus.
With this exploration, the military of Earth will have interest in space protection of colonies of course.
They will definitely want to take up guard where ever humans go in the solar system and later in the rest of the Milky Way.

To those of you who don't believe in the U.S. and NATO interest in space forces,
the U.S. military has always had interest in space dominance since the first American satellites was put into orbit.
They don't care if we don't see no reason for the creation of space forces.

If you are not aware how interested they have been, then click on this link http://www.fas.org/spp/eprint/ and explore the e-prints topics on the page.
If none of you did'nt click on the link yet.
The reason that I believe 2040 will be the maximum date range from now for the creation of spacefleets.
Because the U.S. Air Force is working on black projects that are still classified.
I don't believe fighter jets will be rolling out of those projects anymore.
The only other reasonable explaination will have to be, spacefighters.
You may laugh at my belief, but if they are interested in going fast as Mach 10(7612.1599856836mph) or 20(15224.3199713672mph) the most efficient use of those velocities will be flying outside the atmosphere of Earth.
Where they won't have to deal with very high temperture plasmas that will develop because of very high aerodynamic friction, that jet fighters will encounter in the atomsphere at those transonic speeds.
This effect will produce a very high drag coefficient that will make a jet very unstable in flight.
Also the pilots will experience very high g-forces that will make it very hard to maneuver and also, dangerous for the pilot to survive those forces.
To have a effective operation at those speeds for a jet figher it will be force to go to higher altitudes for more effectivity in maneuverability in combat.
You only can go so hight before you enter space where jet engines will become useless.Also another problem aerospace engineers will have to deal with at thoses transonics speeds is the problem of air intake efficiency in relation to air density ,flow velocities and air compression ratios per unit volume that will occur at those speeds in the jet engines.
The air will flow to fast to have a specific air density per unit volume in the intakes to efficiently ignite with the fuel injectors, the flow field will become so chaotic that the fuel that interact with the air won't fire effectivity to produce a specific thrust to keep the jet flying.
The engines will fail and be choke of air, the same effect at high altitudes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_engine

So, if the military are'nt building startships yet they may have already been building starfighers in those USAF black classified projects still ongoing. Starship Designs

The USAF is rumor to still have 16 black projects still classified.

Last edited by windu6; 09-28-2006 at 04:50 AM.
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Old 09-28-2006, 03:52 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by windu6
You may laugh at my belief, but if they are interested in going fast as Mach 10(7612.1599856836mph) or 20(15224.3199713672mph) the most efficient use of those velocities will be flying outside the atmosphere of Earth.
You may laugh if I'd assume that the interest in achieving those velocities might not necessarily aim at having fighter jets. It may as well be useful for traveling or transport purposes.

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Also the pilots will experience very high g-forces that will make it very hard to maneuver and also, dangerous for the pilot to survive those forces.
You know that a pilot has to handle exact the same G-forces in space, too? The whole machine has to handle those. Pulling a simple looping at Mach 20 might put you in a situation where you find yourself being outrun by your own space ship.

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To have a effective operation at those speeds for a jet figher it will be force to go to higher altitudes for more effectivity in maneuverability in combat.
No "air" to "air" combat is ever fought at super- nor hypersonic speeds, mainly because of G-forces and maneuverability. And even if we put these things aside, I doubt the human mind is able to provide reaction times needed to get that done. I mean, there are clearly differences between a fight and a flight following a straight route, which is often the case at supersonic speeds.

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You only can go so hight before you enter space where jet engines will become useless.
Again, jet engines are not only used for figther jets. Driving technologies for use in space are generally needed, not just for the military.


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Old 09-29-2006, 06:21 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Ray Jones
You may laugh if I'd assume that the interest in achieving those velocities might not necessarily aim at having fighter jets. It may as well be useful for traveling or transport purposes.

Again, jet engines are not only used for figther jets. Driving technologies for use in space are generally needed, not just for the military.
Do you actually believe that U.S. military is building transport vehicles in those classified black projects?
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Old 09-29-2006, 06:45 AM   #47
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I actually "believe" that they are rather searching for new driving technologies in the first place. This would be essential for both, military and civilian uses. Having those driving technologies first and exclusive should make them feel much more comfortable than the thought that other, more "unstable" parties you find around the globe. Hence the secrecy.


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Old 09-29-2006, 07:51 AM   #48
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The U.S. military and NATO is interested in space dominance, they have had the worry about protecting satellites from adversaries. Satellite Protection
And for that you need starfleets or X-Wings? I doubt it.

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Of course when we start to explore solar system and colonize Mars or Venus ,if we ever figue out how the hell to colonize Venus.
And since we won't be colonizing Mars or Venus for an eternity, yet...

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The reason that I believe 2040 will be the maximum date range from now for the creation of spacefleets.
Because the U.S. Air Force is working on black projects that are still classified.
All militaries classify projects, documents, and what have you.

Heck, you can't even look at strangers' medical journals because they're confidential. When I join the visitation service, I'll have to make an oath of confidence and will thus be unable to tell you about what I hear from the person I'm caring for. Doesn't mean we'll sit down and talk about UFOs NASA star fleets.

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I don't believe fighter jets will be rolling out of those projects anymore.
And I do, after I read several Science Illustrated articles about unmanned vehicles (everything from trucks with auto-pilots programmed to follow the truck in front of them - which we actually have working and promising prototypes of today - to fighter jets flying by themselves with a pilot on board).

The future is one of vehicles plotting destinations and driving or flying by themselves. I'd be very surprised if the US government didn't work at making their own fighter jets unmanned.

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The only other reasonable explaination will have to be, spacefighters.
Excuse me, did you say "reasonable"?

You might as well say they're opting for Barracudda-class Flying Subs [/X-COM TFTD reference].

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The USAF is rumor to still have 16 black projects still classified.
Not more?


Last edited by Dagobahn Eagle; 09-29-2006 at 02:18 PM.
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Old 09-29-2006, 02:00 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
And for that you need starfleets or X-Wings? I doubt it.
Well that is your belief.
That's the future of the military, If you don't believe or not.

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And since we won't be colonizing Mars or Venus for an eternity, yet...

All militaries classify projects, documents, and what have you.

Heck, you can't even look at strangers' medical journals because they're confidential. When I join the visitation service, I'll have to make an oath of confidence and will thus be unable to tell you about what I hear from the person I'm caring for. Doesn't mean we'll sit down and talk about UFOs.
You keep considering that I am always talking about UFOs,
because I am the resident UFO nut here on the forum.
But consider exploring the topics on the link e-Prints - Space and Special Weapons and then come back with your response.

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And I do, after I read several Science Illustrated articles about unmanned vehicles (everything from trucks with auto-pilots programmed to follow the truck in front of them - which we actually have working and promising prototypes of today - to fighter jets flying by themselves with a pilot on board).

The future is one of vehicles plotting destinations and driving or flying by themselves. I'd be very surprised if the US government didn't work at making their own fighter jets unmanned.
Excuse me, but I hope that never happen that's is a stupid idea of the air force.
Real pilots don't like that idea ethier, of course they don't agree.
Would you actually want with high confidence, robots fighting wars of the future.
Did you see the Terminator Trilogy?


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Excuse me, did you say "reasonable"?
Yes I said, "reasonable"
open your mind.
Things don't always have a simple explanation.
Occum razor, don't always apply to the situation.
People who always depend Occum razor, are biasing.
The situation!
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Old 09-29-2006, 02:16 PM   #50
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Real pilots don't like that idea ethier, of course they don't agree.
Please quote one pilot who'd rather put his own life on the line than leave the fighting to a non-living remote-controlled machine that even gets the job done better than him.

I'm sure you've met this guy already:


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Would you actually want with high confidence, robots fighting wars of the future.
Definetly. Just like I'd rather have machines work in factories or dangerous workplaces day after day.

Having robots fight is far better than having young boys and girls fight and die. They've got only one life (OK, so robots do, too, but you get my point).

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Did you see the Terminator Trilogy?
No. But if it interests you, I did see the Matrix trilogy and some other works on machines suddenly rebelling. None of them have any basis in reality.

Unmanned planes (like the UAV) can't suddenly rebel and decide to kill all humans more than your calculator can rebel and decide to give you only wrong answers. They're non-thinking things. If they're programmed to do something, they'll do it, and only it - unless you scripted the program wrong, in which case it'll do something weird or crash. And I doubt the army will field badly programmed robots.

I can picture the headlines: "A beta version of the UAV-2 killed sixteen people today due to a program bug. After sending an Illegal Operation error message to Command, it accidentally ran pwnage.exe ran itself into a school-bus full of children, blowing it to kingdom come. The Army apologizes for the incident, blaming the publisher for rushing the program and thus not allowing time for play-testing. The UAV-2 1,02 patch, due out in three months, should correct the problem. The SDK for Army engineers will be released as scheduled on the 4/3/2011 14/5/2011 1/12/2011 31/5/2013 14/9/2034 in the near future".

I guess you could object, "but what if some unscoupolous engineering team deliberately programs them to kill everything they see"? Yup, that's a possibility as much as the engineers sabotaging a jet fighter to suddenly explode, a submarine to suddenly spring leaks, or a missile to epxlode when it's armed, killing the pilot of the plane carrying it.

Sabotage has always existed and will always exist. Just ask the German submariners who were na´ve enough to draft Frenchmen to tend their submarines for them. The most noteworthy case is the crew that found a dead dog in their fresh-water tank, courtesy of some anti-U-bootwaffe Frenchman. Yummie.

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You keep considering that I am always talking about UFOs (...)
Sorry. Post corrected.


Last edited by Dagobahn Eagle; 09-29-2006 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 09-29-2006, 02:43 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Would you please tell me why?

Because I don't trust computers, simple software errors can lead to a disaster
in the conduction of war.

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Please quote one pilot who'd rather put his own life on the line than leave the fighting to a non-living remote-controlled machine that even gets the job done better than him.
I am going to find that answer, but if you watch programs concerning the topic of UAVs about 80% of the pilots don't trust or like the idea of a robot for a wingman.

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Definetly. Just like I'd rather have machines work in factories or dangerous workplaces day after day.

Having robots fight is far better than having young boys and girls fight and die. They've got only one life (OK, so robots do, too, but you get my point).


Unmanned planes (like the UAV) can't suddenly rebel and decide to kill all humans more than your calculator can rebel and decide to give you only wrong answers. They're non-thinking things. If they're programmed to do something, they'll do it, and only it - unless you scripted the program wrong, in which case it'll do something weird or crash. And I doubt the army will field badly programmed robots.

I can picture the headlines: "A beta version of the UAV-2 killed sixteen people today due to a program bug. After sending an Illegal Operation error message to Command, it accidentally ran pwnage.exe ran itself into a school-bus full of children, blowing it to kingdom come. The Army apologizes for the incident, blaming the publisher for rushing the program and thus not allowing time for play-testing. The UAV-2 1,02 patch, due out in three months, should correct the problem. The SDK for Army engineers will be released as scheduled on the 4/3/2011 14/5/2011 1/12/2011 31/5/2013 14/9/2034 in the near future".

Ok! When you vaporize in a mushroom cloud, then tell me did you regret your choice.
You trust robots and computers to much, that's very dangerous.
Watch yourself!

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No. But if it interests you, I did see the Matrix trilogy and some other works on machines suddenly rebelling. None of them have any basis in reality.

Yeah, but when Quantum Computers become practical, fuzzy logic will probably allow that to happen.
Since a Quantum Computer will not be bound by logic circuits restrictions.
Fuzzy logic is close to human personality, if implanted in those UAVs will make the real AI that the movies portray.

Last edited by windu6; 09-29-2006 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 09-29-2006, 02:58 PM   #52
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Because I don't trust computers, simple software errors can lead to a disaster in the conduction of war.
Just like simple human mistakes.

80% of all accidents are caused by human errors. Only 20% are caused by mechanics.

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Old 09-29-2006, 03:09 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Just like simple human mistakes.

80% of all accidents are caused by human errors. Only 20% are caused by mechanics.
20%est. can make a big difference in a war.
I believe the estimated figure is 40% computers and 60% on humans.
In my opinion!
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Old 10-01-2006, 05:42 PM   #54
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I am going to find that answer, but if you watch programs concerning the topic of UAVs about 80% of the pilots don't trust or like the idea of a robot for a wingman.
I just thought of something:

If you, back in the early days of the automobile, asked people if they would feel comfortable riding a vehicle capable of reaching and maintaining a steady speed of 70 km/h, at least, what do you think most of them would answer?

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20%est. can make a big difference in a war.
Yup. As can 80%.

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I believe the estimated figure is 40% computers and 60% on humans.
Do you mean that you think that's the trend, or that you have statistics to show?

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Old 10-14-2006, 04:53 AM   #55
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Thumbs up Particle Beam Weapons

More future military interest !
The U.S. military for one anyway is finally interested in energy weapons for the near future.
It's about damn time !
Of course they probably already had this interest in secret, now its finally being reveal to the public.
I found this article at 3:40 AM today,
it's from Air University Review, July-August 1984
It discusses the physical concept of proton energy weapons
Particle Beam Weapon article link http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/a...g/roberds.html

For people who study mathematics and physics
here is a link http://search.arxiv.org:8081/paper.j...e+Beam+Weapons to the physics of such a weapon.

Last edited by windu6; 10-14-2006 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 10-14-2006, 08:12 AM   #56
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The U.S. military for one anyway is finally interested in energy weapons for the near future.
It about damn time !
They already have lasers strong enough to blind you. So yes, the "interest" is there.

And "it's about damned time"? Enough people die in wars already, if you ask me.

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Old 10-14-2006, 10:07 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
They already have lasers strong enough to blind you. So yes, the "interest" is there.
Yeah, but particle beam weapons are more powerful and more efficient than lasers.

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And "it's about damned time"? Enough people die in wars already, if you ask me.
These kind of weapons will make ballistic missiles obsolete for a time.
Also energy weapons can be a extremely better missile defence system than the primitive defence system they are trying to get working now.
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