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Old 10-06-2006, 09:40 AM   #41
The Architect
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reven0123
i never said i was judge and jury on this and nor do i claim to be all i was doing was pointing out a fact that is in the game if you lisiten and pay attention to the story which can be difficult at times you will realise the kreia and the handmaidens mother are two completely different people and not one and the same
What the hell are you babbling about? "If you listen and pay attention to the story which can be difficult at times you will realise that Kreia and the Handmaiden's mother are two completely different people and not one and the same.”

What? I must have missed something too, because if you listen and pay attention to the story yourself, you will realise that it cannot be proven either way if Kreia is or isn't the Handmaiden's mother.

When Jediphile said "According to who? You? Who appointed you judge and jury on the topic?" He was referring to the fact that you sound as if your opinion is factual and unquestionable, that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong, as if your the arbiter on the topic, when your not!

You say it's a fact that Kreia is not the Handmaiden's mother, but show no proof of this. Why should we believe you, since you cannot provide any proof? As I've said, there is no definitive proof at this stage to determine whether Kreia is or isn't the Handmaiden's mother, so the next time someone disagrees with you, and rightly so in Jediphile's case, and in my case, do not say things such as 'if you listen and pay attention to the story'.

It is uncalled for, and impolite, and until you can prove that Kreia isn't Kae, don't insult anyone in any way who disagrees with you, especially Jediphile, as he evidently does pay attention to the story, which he has demonstrated in many of his posts on here and when he used to be active on the Obsidian forums.

I challenge anyone who says that it's a fact that Kreia isn't Kae to provide their so-called proof of this, because it is not a fact. The same thing can be said vice-versa as well, as it cannot be proven that Kreia is Kae, but the theory has a lot going for it, and IMO, I think Kreia is Kae, but can't prove it...

Edit: Jediphile: I didn't see your reply to 'reven0123's' post last night when I replied to his post in your defense. If I had of, there would have been no need for me to post in your defense, as you have already done that yourself.

Nevertheless, I still would of had something to say to 'reven0123', because I don't like how he claims as if it's an esatablished fact that Kreia isn't Kae, when he can provide no proof to support that claim.

Last edited by The Architect; 10-07-2006 at 04:15 AM. Reason: I made some mistakes and wanted to correct them...
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Old 10-06-2006, 02:53 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Melly
Wookieepedia knows how old Brianna and Mical are (25) because that's how old the devs said they were.
Damn it, where's all that dev information? I can't believe I don't get to know those things. Is it on obsidian's website?
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Old 10-06-2006, 10:28 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
Damn it, where's all that dev information? I can't believe I don't get to know those things. Is it on obsidian's website?
It was in the thread there ages ago (I couldn't tell you which one). One of the devs posted that Mical, Brianna, and I think Mira are all 25.


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Old 10-07-2006, 09:11 PM   #44
General Jerrik
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I have read a few threads about the Arren Kae/Kreia issue, and there is a lot of opposition to this. Maybe I'm not a talented reader, but as far as I can tell no one has offered any evidence that Kreia isn't Arren Kae. Can someone post the facts that I've missed that explain why she can't be?

Thanks
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Old 10-08-2006, 06:14 AM   #45
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There are no hard facts either way. It just so happens there are alot of people who believe that this was something that was too likely to be ignored. I agree with these people in that there is alot of speculation as to the possibility that since all of the information about Arren Kae comes from Kreia, that Kae IS Kreia. There is of course the time differences in parts of thier lives, but the masters all seem to have some insight into the matter.

This will not come to light until K3 is released, and maybe not even then (considering that every single witness is now dead) unless it came from the mouth of Revan, Juhanni, or Bastilla (since they were at the enclave at the time).

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Old 10-08-2006, 07:22 AM   #46
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The Exile was at the Academy at that time too, or is she older than Revan?
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Old 10-08-2006, 08:03 AM   #47
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A big problem with some of the discussions that I've been involved with on this topic is that the people who don't like the idea that Kreia might be Kae sometimes assume a position of "Kreia isn't Kae unless those who think so can prove it."

In and of itself that's not so bad, unless they refuse to apply the same demand to their own side of the issue, which is not always the case. Those of us who think Kreia might be Kae cannot prove it, but neither can those who think they're different people prove that Kreia isn't Kae. So the discussion is at an impasse, since there is no conclusive evidence either way.

And a lot of people just hate the idea and reject it solely on that basis. I know that feeling, since it was my own gut reaction, when I first heard of it. But naturally a gut feeling is not evidence, and once I accepted that and began looking at the clues in the game, the idea seemed less farfetched, though not less disturbing. I didn't like it up front because I didn't want Kreia to be handmaiden's mother. But then I also didn't want Vader to be Luke's father in the original trilogy, and yet he was. There is no particular reason why the same could not be true for Kreia and Brianna, and nobody has been able to shed light on the subject that would make it clear that Kreia is not Kae.

And while the initial assumption in the game naturally is that Arren Kae died long ago, Kreia, who is the main source of information on Kae, does not say so...

Kreia: "You are spending time with the servant of Atris. I knew her mother. She was a Jedi Knight - a master, named Arren Kae. Jedi are forbidden to have children, and when the crime finally came to light almost a decade later, Kae was exiled. She joined the Mandalorian Wars after the shame of her birth was revealed. Revan welcomed her. And she was... said to be... a skilled warrior. Beautiful. And strong in the Force. The Force flows strongly in the blood of those born from Force Sensitives. I doubt that Arren was any different."

Note that Kreia does not say that Kae died. And is it just me or does she make a lot of presumptions about the Handmaiden's potential? She could know more than she wants to admit, which would certainly not be a first for Kreia...

But the major clue that Kreia might be Kae comes from the idea of who was Revan's first master, and presumably the last as well, since the game seems to give that honour to both Kreia and Kae.

Kreia: "He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself.And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told. At one time, Revan was my Padawan. In times past, long ago. But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters... that fool Zhar, and other Jedi on other planets. He learned from each.But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi - except how one could leave them forever."

Kreia tells us Revan was her padawan - not merely someone studying under her - and that he learned from others after learning from her. Yet the Disciple also sheds some light on this...

Disciple: "Revan sought out many other teachers to learn certain techniques. I do not recall who Revan's master was... strange. As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled. Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that.And it is said that he went to his first - and final - master to learn how to leave the order entirely, as she had.And such teachings and their teachers is why I harbor doubts, why I wonder if something is missing from the Jedi code."

Here the Disciple mentions that Kae was Revan's master, when Revan was a padawan - just as Kreia did above, except Kreia put herself as Revan's master then. Now, the Disciple also says that he cannot recall Revan's next master. Some have said that is because it was Kreia and proves that she is not Kae. I don't think so, however. Because that would still make Kae Revan's first master, and note that both Kreia and Disciple agree that Revan returned in his end to his first master, which Kreia says is herself. That would suggest that whomever the Disciple cannot remember cannot be this elusive "first and last master", which is confusing, since it would appear obvious that the forgotten master is Kreia, since she is manipulating Disciple's mind. The way I see it, there are two options here.

1. Whomever this forgotten master is doesn't matter. We know from Disciple that Kae was Revan's first master, and that Revan returned to his first master in the end to learn how to leave the order. Kreia tells us pretty much the exact same story, except she puts herself as both Revan's first and last master. I think most of us agree that this last master, who taught Revan how to leave the order, must indeed be Kreia. And since both Kreia and Disciple tell us that the first master was also the last, whoever was Revan's master next doesn't matter to the discussion. It's just someone that Disciple forgot about.

2. Assuming Kreia is Kae, this apparent second master after Kae is really still Kreia/Kae, except Kreia has manipulated Disciple's mind so that he remembers this next master as someone else. Essentially, Kreia knows that she cannot remove all memories of Kae, since she had such an impact on Revan, which would not be forgotten, and that losing all knowledge of her would leave gaps in jedi history that are obviously suspicious. So instead she splits Kae into two people in Disciple's mind and then paints Kae as a more benevolent master, while attributing her darker sides only to the second incarnation, which Disciple cannot remember. This allows her to leave his recollection of jedi history intact while hiding her own position in it - or at least her darker aspects.

I tend more towards the second option, but however you look at it, Kreia still ends up saying that she was Revan's first and last master, while Disciple tells us that Kae was the first - whomever he cannot remember was either still Kreia/Kae or else it doesn't matter, since it was not Revan's first and last master.

Now, while we may doubt Kreia's words, it does seem obvious that she is indeed the master that Revan returned to in the end, and so Revan's last master. She says that Revan was her padawan, and since he returned to her, this would seem to make her this elusive first and last master. Yet Disciple puts the position of Revan's first master on Kae - she is the earliest (=first) master he mentions for Revan, Revan was her padawan (the exact same word that Kreia used), and Revan returned to his first master in the end. If you accept all this, then you must accept that Kreia is Kae. The only way to avoid that conclusion is to question some of the informatioin that Kreia or Disciple has given us above.

Now, I'm willing to question a lot of things that Kreia says, but I do find it indisputable that she was indeed Revan's last master. I do not, however, question what Disciple tells us, and since he mentions Kae as Revan's first master and confirms that Revan returned to his first master in the end, then I cannot escape the conclusion that Kreia must be Kae. Quod erat demonstrandum.

There are other clues to Kreia being Kae, notably her involvement in the Mandalorian Wars that Kavar mentions at the council and how Kae was allegedly killed in the war, though her body was never recovered in spite of her robes obviously being found. But the above is the major clue.


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Last edited by Jediphile; 10-08-2006 at 08:17 AM.
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Old 10-08-2006, 08:46 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
The Exile was at the Academy at that time too, or is she older than Revan?
They both left for war at the same time, so one would assume that they were at the academy at the same time. I would think that at the time they were either both knights, or the exile was still a padawan.

Completely Off-Topic: Was the exile up to the rank of Jedi Knight at the time of the war, and do we know who s/he was trained by?

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Old 10-08-2006, 08:52 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
The Exile was at the Academy at that time too, or is she older than Revan?
Well, the Disciple mentions being taught by the Exile and notes clear differences between the Exile and Vrook, so you're right that the Exile would have been there at the time right up until the Exile left to join Revan's crusade.

Disciple: "I met you on Dantooine, long ago, briefly. You taught us the ways of the Force, how to hear it sing within others, within the life around Dantooine. You taught us the ways of combat, how to hear music within the movements of a lightsaber blade. You taught us how to move within the Force, and see it flow within others. How to see it in the behaviors of others, and use that sight to achieve truth. It is difficult to explain the difference between you and Master Vrook, but I think it is because he was knowledgeable, but not a leader, not a mentor. You were different - we could all feel it. {A little quiet, baring his soul}And I knew that if I were to have a Master, I would want it to be you. And then you went to war."

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldberry
Completely Off-Topic: Was the exile up to the rank of Jedi Knight at the time of the war, and do we know who s/he was trained by?
The Exile's status is in question. Judging from the above, it is clear s/he was teaching the younger students, but the holorecording of the discussion between Vrook and Vandar, it is questionable whether the Exile ever reached the rank of jedi knight. Even Vandar admits that s/he is "an average student of the force."

As for the Exile's master, that is complete blank - we never hear of this person in the game, which I've always found odd. I even found it suspicious enough to speculate that it might have been kept secret for reasons that might be revealed in KotOR3. I guess time will tell.


"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

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Old 10-08-2006, 09:17 AM   #50
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Jediphile: That is precisely why you are a champ, with posts like that (I'm referring to the long one). Apart from your ramblings on the ‘major clue’ suggesting that Kreia may be Kae, I’ll type up my own ‘mini-lecture’ discussing why I think Kreia may be Kae (apart from the ‘major clue’).

First of all, when it comes to the situation with Atris, when she says "Kreia? That is not her name" a lot of people think she’s referring to the fact that her name is Darth Traya, however these people are missing the point.

Darth Traya is a title, not a name. Is Darth Vader Anakin Skywalker’s real name? No, it isn’t. Who in their right mind would be called “Darth Traya” as their real name? So, if Kreia is not her real name, and Darth Traya is a title and in any event would not be Kreia’s real name, just what the hell is Kreia’s real name?

When we look at all the interesting observations that suggest that Kreia may be Arren Kae, and add that to Atris exclamation, it becomes even more likely that she is Arren Kae.

And how about the peculiar, modest way Kreia speaks of Arren Kae? What is that all about?

Kreia: "You are spending time with the servant of Atris. I knew her mother. She was a Jedi Knight - a master, named Arren Kae. Jedi are forbidden to have children, and when the crime finally came to light almost a decade later, Kae was exiled. She joined the Mandalorian Wars after the shame of her birth was revealed. Revan welcomed her. And she was... said to be... a skilled warrior. Beautiful. And strong in the Force. The Force flows strongly in the blood of those born from Force Sensitive’s. I doubt that Arren was any different."

It's also odd how the Exile has no knowledge of Arren Kae at all, despite her being a well-known Jedi Master who fought in the Mandalorian Wars. Is it possible that Kreia is using the force and causing the Exile to 'forget'?

Kreia's name is pronounced as if it were a portmanteau of the names "Kae" and "Traya." This is possibly in keeping with the character's personality. Given that she turned her back on both the Jedi Council and the Sith; and combining her name as a Jedi (Kae) with her name as a Sith (Traya), instead embracing the Grey Philosophy... (That one's taken directly from) http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Arren_Kae...

There is also the whole deal with Kae's body never being recovered (this means that it is possible that Kae did not die). It's also unusual how her robes were recovered (the Handmaiden wears them) but they never recovered the body. What the hell???

There's also the whole deal with Kreia and Disciple, how Kreia says something like "You know who I am..." and so fourth. Either way, the dialogue that the Disciple and Kreia exchange aboard the Ebon Hawk definitely 'hints' at the possibility of Kreia being Kae IMO.

It's difficult to talk about that though, because I can't remember the dialogue and therefore cannot accurately quote and use the dialogue to support my views, so I'll leave it at that. There are also countless other hints/clues that suggest that Kreia may be Kae, but because of the reasons I mentioned above, I can't discuss those, as I will probably mis-quote.

One of the biggest clues for me though is that Kreia tells us she was exiled because of 'Revan's fall' and 'her teachings', however on Dantooine Master Kavar says: "I thought you died in the Mandalorian Wars," which means that Kreia could not have been exiled because of 'her teachings' and 'Revan's fall', 'since this would of had to occur after the Mandalorian Wars, so she is lying about the 'reasons for her exile'.

It's also interesting to point out that none of the Jedi Masters call Kreia by her name, they refer to Kreia as 'her' and 'she' during the trial on Coruscant and the meeting on Dantooine. Is it because Kreia might not be her real name? Wait, we already know that it's not, because Atris says so.

Anyway, that's all I'll say for now...
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Old 10-08-2006, 06:25 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by The Architect
First of all, when it comes to the situation with Atris, when she says "Kreia? That is not her name" a lot of people think she’s referring to the fact that her name is Darth Traya, however these people are missing the point.

Darth Traya is a title, not a name. Is Darth Vader Anakin Skywalker’s real name? No, it isn’t. Who in their right mind would be called “Darth Traya” as their real name? So, if Kreia is not her real name, and Darth Traya is a title and in any event would not be Kreia’s real name, just what the hell is Kreia’s real name?
I suppose the skeptics will argue that since the various Darth-names are unique, they can still be considered "names", or maybe that Atris is simply saying that Traya is who Kreia really is now.

I do agree with your conclusion, however, because there is another point to consider in what Atris says in the very conversation you mention, where the Exile finally confronts her on Telos. In the same conversation where Atris says, "Kreia? Oh... that is not her name," you can also get Atris to say the following, if you mention Atris' name:

Atris: "Atris... that is not who I am, not any longer. She has not existed for some time, I think. There was always something else within me - it just took time for its voice to be heard."

Now, if Atris is no longer Atris, then who is she? It seems to me there is only one possibility. She is Darth Traya. Or so she thinks, at least. She's wrong, but she doesn't know that, because Kreia has already planted the idea that she has fallen and become Darth Traya in Atris' mind. Yes, Atris as Darth Traya was cut from the game, but the above comment is not - it's right there if you listen for it.

This scene illustrates Atris' corruption:

{Gameplay Programmer: Atris is sitting in the middle of the chamber, surrounded by the holocrons. She is facing away from the entrance to the room. Evil whispers lurk in the background, like speaking to her. Let the camera circle for a second, until it comes to rest facing the front of Atris and showing the door in the background. The door is open, and Kreia is standing there.}

Atris: {Quiet, does not turn - can feel a presence, but she cannot see Kreia} "Who is there?" {Probing, already knows the answer}

Kreia: "Who I am is not the question."

Atris: {Quiet, as if speaking to herself, it almost seems like she doesn't realize Kreia is there} "I am Atris, Jedi Master... the last historian of the Jedi... the last of the Jedi."

Kreia: "Those are titles, words you cling to as the darkness falls around you.

Atris: {Quiet, should be mad, but isn't} "You are that which has attacked the Jedi... you are Sith."

Kreia: " "Sith" is a title, yes, but like you, the title is not who I am. It is not what I believe.For you... it is different. Know that there was once a Darth Traya. And that she cast aside that role, was exiled, and found a new purpose.{Quietly, resigned, like she is about to perform an unpleasant duty}But there must always be a Darth Traya, one that holds the knowledge of betrayal. {Quietly}Who has been betrayed in their heart, and will betray in turn. You have bathed in the knowledge of the Sith. But there is not enough truth in such teachings... but it will be a step for you."

Atris: {Quietly, still staring off into space, like told she has cancer} "How did it happen?"

Kreia: "Search your heart. It was never battle that called to you. Never battle that caused you to fall.{Speaking to herself}Malachor V has touched many things, and it casts its echoes still."

Atris [If Exile is male] {Quiet, but desperate - loved the player} "Why did he betray me?"

OR

Atris [If Exile is female] {Quiet, but desperate - loved the player like a sister} "Why did she betray me?"

Kreia: {Slight accusation} "You betrayed yourself. Do not blame the exile.And unlike you and I, there is still a chance that one may be saved. The one that you cast out."

Note how Kreia talks about Darth Traya, then tells Atris that it will be a step for her, convincing Atris that she has now become Darth Traya. It's a lie, yes, a mere part of Kreia's plan to lure Nihilus to Telos, so that the Exile can destroy both Atris and Nihilus, but she still convinces Atris that Atris is Darth Traya.

And naturally, if Atris thinks that she is Darth Traya herself, then it would be very odd indeed to say that Kreia's real name is not Kreia with a reference to it being Darth Traya. To it's obvious that she meant some other name for the reasons given above. Whether that name is Arren Kae is another matter, but at the very least it lends credence to the speculation that there is background about Kreia that is unrevealed. It is yet another clue, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
It's also odd how the Exile has no knowledge of Arren Kae at all, despite her being a well-known Jedi Master who fought in the Mandalorian Wars. Is it possible that Kreia is using the force and causing the Exile to 'forget'?
I've been wondering that too. To the question of whether Kreia manipulates the Exile's mind, the answer is:

Kreia: "No - but if I did, you would never know, so my words only carry as much worth as you believe them to."

Not a very settling answer, to be sure. And not much of a denial either...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
There is also the whole deal with Kae's body never being recovered (this means that it is possible that Kae did not die). It's also unusual how her robes were recovered (the Handmaiden wears them) but they never recovered the body. What the hell???
Yes, that also read like a big "Gee, maybe she's not dead"-comment to me as well. What? They can find the robes but not the body? How utterly convenient... And IIRC, Handmaiden is the only one who ever says that Arren Kae was killed during the Mandalorian Wars. I've looked, and so far it doesn't seem as if anyone else ever says it. Strange, right? I mean, to everyone else, Kae just seems to have fallen off the map. And if Handmaiden's background really does mirror Luke's, then it would fit, wouldn't it? I mean, Obi-Wan tells Luke that his father died, but Obi-Wan recovered his lightsaber. Yusanis tells Brianna that her mother died, but that he recovered her robes. Maybe Yusanis did just what Obi-Wan did - saw someone he cared about fall to the dark side, took something for the sake of nostalgia, then gave it to that fallen person's offspring saying that the person was noble and had died. It makes a lot of sense to me, especially if you consider the "heavy burden" that Brianna says her father carried with him when returned from the Mandalorian Wars. And Yusanis also stopped being a soldier and turned to politics. Clearly something had happened that weighed greatly upon him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
There's also the whole deal with Kreia and Disciple, how Kreia says something like "You know who I am..." and so fourth. Either way, the dialogue that the Disciple and Kreia exchange aboard the Ebon Hawk definitely 'hints' at the possibility of Kreia being Kae IMO.

It's difficult to talk about that though, because I can't remember the dialogue and therefore cannot accurately quote and use the dialogue to support my views, so I'll leave it at that. There are also countless other hints/clues that suggest that Kreia may be Kae, but because of the reasons I mentioned above, I can't discuss those, as I will probably mis-quote.
I could post it all, but it's difficult to describe since there is very little dialogue in it all. It's mostly various camera-angles, as Kreia plays with Mical's mind. Some interesting programmer's notes, though. Let me know if I should post it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
One of the biggest clues for me though is that Kreia tells us she was exiled because of 'Revan's fall' and 'her teachings', however on Dantooine Master Kavar says: "I thought you died in the Mandalorian Wars," which means that Kreia could not have been exiled because of 'her teachings' and 'Revan's fall', 'since this would of had to occur after the Mandalorian Wars, so she is lying about the 'reasons for her exile'.
I don't quite see it that way. Because the masters did not fight in the war. None of the members of the jedi order were allowed to fight. Those who did were all exiled. At least according to the Disciple.

Disciple: "Many Jedi went to war, and the Jedi Masters proclaimed that you were Jedi no longer."

It seems to me that Kreia was blamed for Revan's insurrection and so exiled from the order. Being an outcast, she then joined Revan's cause, just as it's explained for Arren Kae. Besides, if the masters blamed Kreia for Revan's exile, why would they have waited several years to exile her? No, I think Kreia was exiled just after Revan defied the council. Just as Arren Kae was...


"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

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Old 10-08-2006, 08:37 PM   #52
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Well im not going to bother posting my reasons for thinking Kreia is Kea because its already been given lol.

Oh and I think I know the reason for why Kreia "despises" the Handmaiden. Notice in the game she doesnt want the exile and Handmaiden to fall in love with-eachother, she also doesnt want the Handmaiden being near the Exile, or traveling with them. I think this shows that she is protecting the Handmaiden.
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Old 10-09-2006, 03:01 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BanthaFodder01
Oh and I think I know the reason for why Kreia "despises" the Handmaiden. Notice in the game she doesnt want the exile and Handmaiden to fall in love with-eachother, she also doesnt want the Handmaiden being near the Exile, or traveling with them. I think this shows that she is protecting the Handmaiden.
She could also be trying to protect the Exile though.
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Old 10-09-2006, 08:09 AM   #54
reven0123
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if you dont like my opinion architecht well then tough because i am entitled to mine just as you are yours and im pretty certain kreia say's to you that the handmaidens mother died in the mandalorian wars and the reason for kreia being presumed dead is because she was exiled from the order for her role in training reven and also when she learnd that reven had fallen to the darkside she disapeared to find out WHY he had done so if you want to know how i found this out you can read her biography on wookiepedia heres the link.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kreia
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Old 10-09-2006, 09:56 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I suppose the skeptics will argue that since the various Darth-names are unique, they can still be considered "names", or maybe that Atris is simply saying that Traya is who Kreia really is now.

I do agree with your conclusion, however, because there is another point to consider in what Atris says in the very conversation you mention, where the Exile finally confronts her on Telos. In the same conversation where Atris says, "Kreia? Oh... that is not her name," you can also get Atris to say the following, if you mention Atris' name:


Kreia: "Those are titles, words you cling to as the darkness falls around you.

Atris: {Quiet, should be mad, but isn't} "You are that which has attacked the Jedi... you are Sith."

Kreia: " "Sith" is a title, yes, but like you, the title is not who I am. It is not what I believe.For you... it is different. Know that there was once a Darth Traya. And that she cast aside that role, was exiled, and found a new purpose.{Quietly, resigned, like she is about to perform an unpleasant duty}But there must always be a Darth Traya, one that holds the knowledge of betrayal. {Quietly}Who has been betrayed in their heart, and will betray in turn. You have bathed in the knowledge of the Sith. But there is not enough truth in such teachings... but it will be a step for you."

Atris: {Quietly, still staring off into space, like told she has cancer} "How did it happen?"

Kreia: "Search your heart. It was never battle that called to you. Never battle that caused you to fall.{Speaking to herself}Malachor V has touched many things, and it casts its echoes still."

Atris [If Exile is male] {Quiet, but desperate - loved the player} "Why did he betray me?"

OR

Atris [If Exile is female] {Quiet, but desperate - loved the player like a sister} "Why did she betray me?"

Kreia: {Slight accusation} "You betrayed yourself. Do not blame the exile.And unlike you and I, there is still a chance that one may be saved. The one that you cast out."

Note how Kreia talks about Darth Traya, then tells Atris that it will be a step for her, convincing Atris that she has now become Darth Traya. It's a lie, yes, a mere part of Kreia's plan to lure Nihilus to Telos, so that the Exile can destroy both Atris and Nihilus, but she still convinces Atris that Atris is Darth Traya.

And naturally, if Atris thinks that she is Darth Traya herself, then it would be very odd indeed to say that Kreia's real name is not Kreia with a reference to it being Darth Traya. To it's obvious that she meant some other name for the reasons given above. Whether that name is Arren Kae is another matter, but at the very least it lends credence to the speculation that there is background about Kreia that is unrevealed. It is yet another clue, I think.
This is the awesome thing about KotOR II. Chris Avellone's writing leaves many things for us to interpret, debate and speculate on. For example, Kreia suggests that perhaps Revan never fell to the dark-side, but made a necessary sacrifice to prevent a greater evil. Did Revan fall to the dark-side, or was it a sacrifice? That is for you as a player to decide.

Anyway, I'll get back on topic. You make very good points about the dialogue exchange between Atris and Kreia on Telos, and how it demonstrates that Atris thinks she is Darth Traya (she isn't, but she seems to think she is).

As you've said, Atris says that Kreia is not her name, but if she thinks that she is Darth Traya, then what name is she referring to for Kreia? Add that to all the interesting observations that suggests that Kreia is Kae, and take into consideration that ‘Darth Traya’ is a title and in any event couldn’t be Kreia’s real name and what do we get? We get a high probability that Kreia may indeed be Arren Kae.

I originally concluded that if Atris had of said “Kreia? Oh…that is not her real name” then that would have settled the debate about whether she is referring to Kreia’s name being Darth Traya or something else; however looking at the dialogue exchanged between Atris and Kreia on Telos again, it shows that Atris couldn’t be referring to Darth Traya when she says “Kreia? Oh…that is not her name.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I've been wondering that too. To the question of whether Kreia manipulates the Exile's mind, the answer is:

Kreia: "No - but if I did, you would never know, so my words only carry as much worth as you believe them to."

Not a very settling answer, to be sure. And not much of a denial either...
That sums up Kreia for you. She never gives a simplified answer about anything, she’s always enigmatic...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Yes, that also read like a big "Gee, maybe she's not dead"-comment to me as well. What? They can find the robes but not the body? How utterly convenient... And IIRC, Handmaiden is the only one who ever says that Arren Kae was killed during the Mandalorian Wars. I've looked, and so far it doesn't seem as if anyone else ever says it. Strange, right? I mean, to everyone else, Kae just seems to have fallen off the map. And if Handmaiden's background really does mirror Luke's, then it would fit, wouldn't it? I mean, Obi-Wan tells Luke that his father died, but Obi-Wan recovered his lightsaber. Yusanis tells Brianna that her mother died, but that he recovered her robes. Maybe Yusanis did just what Obi-Wan did - saw someone he cared about fall to the dark side, took something for the sake of nostalgia, then gave it to that fallen person's offspring saying that the person was noble and had died. It makes a lot of sense to me, especially if you consider the "heavy burden" that Brianna says her father carried with him when returned from the Mandalorian Wars. And Yusanis also stopped being a soldier and turned to politics. Clearly something had happened that weighed greatly upon him.
Nice observations regarding the similarity of background between the Handmaiden and Luke (assuming that Kreia is indeed Arren Kae that is). You're also right about the Handmaiden being the only one who ever says that Kae was killed during the Mandalorian Wars. I never hearing anyone else say Kae died in the Mandalorian Wars.

I still find it odd how anyone could safely conclude that Kae did die during the Mandalorian Wars, when her body was never recovered, but her robes were. Shouldn’t her robes and the body be recovered as well. Where’s the body???


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I could post it all, but it's difficult to describe since there is very little dialogue in it all. It's mostly various camera-angles, as Kreia plays with Mical's mind. Some interesting programmer's notes, though. Let me know if I should post it...
Yes, I'd like to see it thanks...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I don't quite see it that way. Because the masters did not fight in the war. None of the members of the jedi order were allowed to fight. Those who did were all exiled. At least according to the Disciple.

Disciple: "Many Jedi went to war, and the Jedi Masters proclaimed that you were Jedi no longer."

It seems to me that Kreia was blamed for Revan's insurrection and so exiled from the order. Being an outcast, she then joined Revan's cause, just as it's explained for Arren Kae. Besides, if the masters blamed Kreia for Revan's exile, why would they have waited several years to exile her? No, I think Kreia was exiled just after Revan defied the council. Just as Arren Kae was...
This is going to be a long reply...

You see, I think I've misunderstood the point where Kreia says “They blamed me…sentenced me” and so fourth. Because I thought she was implying that she was exiled because the Jedi Council blamed her for Revan and co falling to the dark-side, however the Jedi Council did not know what happened to Revan, Malak and co in the outer-regions of space only until after the Mandalorian Wars, when they returned with a massive invasion fleet.

They may have suspected that Revan and co fell to the dark-side or speculated that they were going to, but the truth is, they didn’t know what happened to them until after the Mandalorian Wars. I remember in KotOR how Master Dorak mentioned that originally they assumed that a great disaster had befallen the entire fleet and how Master Zhar said they did not know what happened to Revan and co in the outer-rim. They only knew for sure that they had fallen to the dark-side when they returned from the unknown regions as Sith, after the Mandalorian Wars.

I originally assumed that the Jedi Council exiled Kreia because they blamed her for Revan and co falling to the dark-side, however Master Kavar says “I thought you died in the Mandalorian Wars” which means that Kreia could not have been exiled for that reason, because this would have had to happen after the Mandalorian Wars.

But I see now that I was wrong about the ‘reasons for Kreia’s exile’. The Jedi Council still could have exiled Kreia during the Mandalorian Wars, since they did not exile her because they blamed her for Revan’s fall (since they did not know what happened to Revan and co until after the Mandalorian Wars), they exiled her because they blame ‘her teachings’ for Revan and co’s ‘defiance of the council’ and one of the reasons why against the wishes of their masters, Revan, Malak, the Exile etc ventured fourth into the outer-rim to assist the Republic in the struggle against the Mandalorians.

Another thing I should of considered is that ‘what other reason could their possibly be for Kreia’s exile’? What I mean by that is, I find it very peculiar that the Jedi Council would exile Kae for having a child, considering the fact that Jolee trained his wife against the wishes of the Jedi Council, he watched her fall to the dark side, he failed to kill her when she tried to kill him, then went on to kill other Jedi? Jolee was forgiven, but his crime is definitely worse than Kae's.

Unless of course it is not the real reason why Kae was exiled (it’s also interesting to point out that it’s Kreia who tells us this, in fact she doesn’t even say that Kae’s pregnancy was the reason for her exile, as far as I recall).

Quote:
Originally Posted by reven0123
if you dont like my opinion architecht well then tough because i am entitled to mine just as you are yours and im pretty certain kreia say's to you that the handmaidens mother died in the mandalorian wars and the reason for kreia being presumed dead is because she was exiled from the order for her role in training reven and also when she learnd that reven had fallen to the darkside she disapeared to find out WHY he had done so if you want to know how i found this out you can read her biography on wookiepedia heres the link.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kreia
I read the link, and found nothing that has convinced me that Kreia isn’t Arren Kae...

So now it's your opinion that Kreia isn't Arren Kae is it? Before, it was...

Quote:
Originally Posted by reven0123
she is not her mother it's just unintentional conjecture on obsidians part i tired of seeing this argument every were i go were this game is being discussed
and

Quote:
Originally Posted by reven0123
i never said i was judge and jury on this and nor do i claim to be all i was doing was pointing out a fact that is in the game if you lisiten and pay attention to the story which can be difficult at times you will realise the kreia and the handmaidens mother are two completely different people and not one and the same
You never said in either of those posts that it was your opinion that Kreia isn't Arren Kae, you said it was a fact and is evident in the story. Look, you’re entitled to your own opinion, as I am entitled to my own. I never said you weren't entitled to your own opinion, nor did I say that I don't like your opinion, I do not disrespect it.

However, you were not expressing your opinion before, you were saying that it was a fact that Kreia was not Arren Kae, there's a difference. You never said something along the lines of "IMO, I don't think Kreia is Arren Kae"...

But now that you've acknowledged that it's your opinion only (just like I've acknowledged that it's my opinion only that Kreia is Arren Kae) and not an established fact.

I'll cut short here and reply to your arguments about why you think Kreia isn't Arren Kae tomorrow night, as there's a TV show I watch that's about to start...

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by reven0123
im pretty certain kreia say's to you that the handmaidens mother died in the mandalorian wars and the reason for kreia being presumed dead is because she was exiled from the order for her role in training reven
Kreia did say that Arren Kae died in the Mandalorian Wars, however it cannot be proven that she died because her body was never recovered, but her robes were (the Handmaiden wears them). Isn't that odd? How Arren's robes were recovered, but her body wasn't? If anything, that suggests that she did not die. Why couldn't they find her body? How could anyone declare that Arren died when they can't prove it? It was just an assumption that she died.

What you said about 'the reason for Kreia being presumed dead is because she was exiled from the order for her role in training Revan' doesn't make any sense. Why would that be a reason to assume she died for? A better reason IMO is that the Jedi who fought in the Mandalorian Wars either were killed or fell to the dark-side (excluding the Exile).

If Kreia did fight in the Mandalorian Wars (and I think she did, because I think she's Kae) then that would be a better reason to assume that she died because she either would have fought in the Jedi Civil War as a Sith or would have been killed in the Mandalorian Wars (and since she was never seen by any of the Jedi Masters during the Jedi Civil War) it's just assumed by them that she died.

Last edited by The Architect; 10-10-2006 at 04:54 AM.
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Old 10-09-2006, 11:15 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Nice observations regarding the similarity of background between the Handmaiden and Luke (assuming that Kreia is indeed Arren Kae that is). You're also right about the Handmaiden being the only one who ever says that Kae was killed during the Mandalorian Wars. I never hearing anyone else say Kae died in the Mandalorian Wars.
Actually, I've been looking through the dialog.tlk file, and the only two instances of Kae having died I can find are these:

Exile: "I wanted to talk to you about your mother.The Mandalorian Wars - she was one of the Jedi who served and died there, and good riddance.She was a Jedi, her name was Arren Kae.Did you know that she was a Jedi Knight?You can use that same power, but take a stronger, darker path.It means you may be able to feel the Force as well.Because the Force runs strong in bloodlines, and you could learn to use it to help others.I am sorry for your loss."

Yes, the above is a bit of a mess, because it's the various options the Exile gets when approaching the subject. I don't recall which are which, but then it's not terribly important. The only other time I could find was Handmaiden's reply:

Handmaiden: "Yusanis, an Echani general. He left our family to serve in the Mandalorian Wars. But his choice was not because of battle. He went to join my mother, one whose movements and spirit matched his. His only desire was that they fight together, side by side, for as long as there were enemies amassed against them. I never saw her face, and she did not return from the final battle of the war. She died in the battle that shattered Malachor V, and her body was never recovered. My father returned from the Mandalorian Wars and did not enter battle again."

So the only instance I've been able to find of a character (other than the Exile, who knows of this only through others) is Brianna mentioning it while mentioning that the body was never recovered. If you've ever watched a Bond movie or read about how villains die in comic books, then alarms should go off right there

Now, I do not claim that there may not be other references to Arren Kae's fate that I may have overlooked. I searched for "Kae" thoughout the entire dialog.tlk file, and though she is mentioned at other times, these are the only ones where she is said to be dead. Neither Kreia, Disciple or Zez-Kai Ell ever say that she has died, though they all talk about her. And they should all know better than the Exile or Handmaiden, who never even knew Kae.

Another minor clue: Look at Handmaiden's dialogue above. She specifically says, "I never saw her face" about her mother. What's the significance of that statement? Why is it mentioned? It could be a way to signal to us, that even if Handmaiden ever met her mother, she would have no way of recognizing her...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Yes, I'd like to see it thanks...
Okay. It's all a bit muddled and cut into various scenes, but I'll try to separate them. Just be aware that the cuts between scenes are mine, and that I've tried to identify who says and does what at which point. The first few won't make much sense, because they have very little dialogue, but bear with me...

Part 1:

{Gameplay Programmer: This cut scene takes place on the Ebon Hawk, the Disciple is studying the medical bay computers, or we can move this into the center room, if we need more room.}

Disciple: {Gameplay Programmer: The trick in this scene is that the Disciple is moving around, but it's like Kreia is invisible to him. Toward the end of the sequence, he stops for a moment, then looks around, staring directly at Kreia.}Is there..." {"someone here"}?{Frowns, shakes head.}

Disciple: {Gameplay Programmer: Turns away from Kreia, even though she's standing right there.}"Must be hearing things. But for a moment..."{And when he pauses, then turns around, Kreia is gone.}

Part 2:

{Gameplay Programmer: Have a scene where the Disciple is in the medical bay, working, and the camera shows both him working and the exit from the room. He's working for a few seconds, when Kreia walks by, behind him, barely visible.}

Disciple: {Gameplay Programmer: Disciple stops what he's doing. He knows something is wrong.}{He turns to face the exit, steps out into the corridor, looks to the left and right, sees nothing. No one else should be around. Try to play up emptiness of the ship.}

Kriea: {Kreia is not visible. She whispers like an evil ghost.}:: "Jedi." ::

Part 3:

{Gameplay Programmer: Next scene shows him walking down one of the corridors toward Kreia's meditation room, make it creepy. [Disciple runs down the corridor.]}{Gameplay Programmer: Next scene shows him walking down one of the corridors toward Kreia's meditation room, make it creepy. [Disciple reaches the end]}

Disciple: {Gameplay Programmer: Rounds the corner, looks into bunkroom, and sees no one - the room is empty. Walks into the bunkroom, looks around, frowns.}

Kreia: {Gameplay Programmer: Camera turns to show Kreia behind him - Disciple does not turn to look at her, doesn't know she's there. The camera focuses on her face, and she smiles evilly.}{Evil whisper}"Jedi."

Disciple: {Gameplay Programmer: And when he turns around to face the sound, Kreia is gone.}

Kreia: {When the camera turns back to face him, she is behind him again. She will speak, just over his shoulder.}{Whispers into his mind}:: "Betrayer." :::: "All thoughts of me will slide from your vision, from your mind, like water." :::: "You know who I am. But you will be unable to voice it, to remember it." :::: "What does a Jedi see?" :::: "Only what I allow them to see." ::

Part 4:

{Gameplay Programmer: This scene shows up in the middle of the Ebon Hawk. The Disciple rotates through the holographic worlds - Aaron Brown made models of them all. Rotate through them slowly, one by one.}

Disciple: {Gameplay Programmer: Stares at worlds, realizes what's happening - starts scrolling through all the worlds, one by one. Sinister music is playing. His eyes widen.}

Kreia: {Gameplay Programmer: Kreia steps behind him.}{Whispers, realizes the Disciple discovered what she knew all along}"At last you understand, tiny Jedi."

Disciple: {Surprised, turns, thinks he's never seen Kreia before}"You - who are you? What are you doing on this sh-?"{"ship"}

Kreia: {Gameplay Programmer: She steps forward, looking at holograms.}"Enough."

Kreia: {Steps forward, looking at holograms}"What did you see in the web of worlds that have died? What did you see when you saw it through the Force?"

Disciple: {Whispers in awe, turns back to the holographic worlds}"I see the death of the galaxy. Of life."

Disciple: {Go for broke, it's like the Disciple just discovered the apocalypse is going to happen tomorrow - quiet, awed, and horrified}"At first... I thought it was just conquest, but it's more terrible than that. It's an echo, spreading outwards, killing everything."

Disciple: {Still quiet, but incredulous}"It's not possible."

Kreia: {Smiles}"You are a wasted pawn of the Republic, young one. You could have been so much more, even with your wide-eyed innocence, your naïve love for others. Now you understand the magnitude of what is being done."

Disciple: {Quietly, beat at the last sentence}"I know you - not even the markings of the dark side can hide it. Why have you done this?"

Kreia: {Scoffs}"I? Do you think I seek the death of all living things? There is no victory in such things. I do not want to win our war like this, little Jedi. When I win, I wish it to be because I was right, my teachings true."

Disciple: {Quietly}"How long have you been here, among us?"

Kreia: "You know the truth. I have always been here, watching and listening to the echo you have found. You know its source and what must be done."

Disciple: {Frowns, gathering a little courage}"I will not let you hurt her."

Kreia: {Amused, slight taunt, but firm}"Little Jedi, you cannot stop me."

Kreia: {Now command tone in voice, firm}"But you will forget this. Your mind is worse than the others, so open, so trusting. Your feelings for her are your weakness. Yet I will gift you with this - you will remember what you have you discovered... when the time is correct."

Kreia: {Slightly impressed}"Know that you have seen what formerly only I knew - now we shall see if you have the strength to stop what comes."

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
You see, I think I've misunderstood the point where Kreia says “They blamed me…sentenced me” and so fourth. Because I thought she was implying that she was exiled because the Jedi Council blamed her for Revan and co falling to the dark-side, however the Jedi Council did not know what happened to Revan, Malak and co in the outer-regions of space only until after the Mandalorian Wars, when they returned with a massive invasion fleet.

They may have suspected that Revan and co fell to the dark-side or speculated that they were going to, but the truth is, they didn’t know what happened to them until after the Mandalorian Wars. I remember in KotOR how Master Dorak mentioned that originally they assumed that a great disaster had befallen the entire fleet and how Master Zhar said they did not know what happened to Revan and co in the outer-rim. They only knew for sure that they had fallen to the dark-side when they returned from the unknown regions as Sith, after the Mandalorian Wars.

I originally assumed that the Jedi Council exiled Kreia because they blamed her for Revan and co falling to the dark-side, however Master Kavar says “I thought you died in the Mandalorian Wars” which means that Kreia could not have been exiled for that reason, because this would have had to happen after the Mandalorian Wars.

But I see now that I was wrong about the ‘reasons for Kreia’s exile’. The Jedi Council still could have exiled Kreia during the Mandalorian Wars, since they did not exile her because they blamed her for Revan’s fall (since they did not know what happened to Revan and co until after the Mandalorian Wars), they exiled her because they blame ‘her teachings’ for Revan and co’s ‘defiance of the council’ and one of the reasons why against the wishes of their masters, Revan, Malak, the Exile etc ventured fourth into the outer-rim to assist the Republic in the struggle against the Mandalorians.
I suspect the reason for the confusion on this subject is due to things being retconned in TSL. As you say, in KotOR1 the masters are dismissive of Revan's choice to go to war, but do not seem to have done much beyond that until Revan returned to conquer the Republic. In TSL, however, we learn that they exiled all those who followed Revan to war and considered them to have fallen to the dark side. Some people dislike this in TSL, and frankly it is a little annoying, but then these things happen frequently in sequels, or so it seems to me. Suffice it to say that when it comes to Kreia and Arren Kae (whether they are the same person or not), we should look at how events have unfolded according to TSL, since neither are ever mentioned in the original game's plot.

So while in KotOR the masters simply don't know what happened to Revan and his forces after the Mandalorian Wars, in TSL they were all exiled anyway, since they defied the council when they went to war. Thus they were all considered to have fallen to the dark side, because the council felt that going to war meant embracing the dark side. Bastila makes a few comments to that end even in KotOR. Or as Kreia puts it:

Kreia: "Many believed the Mandalorians defeated at Malachor V. But the Mandalorians taught the Jedi much through battle. And so it was that Malak, Revan, and the Jedi that followed them discovered their true natures in the Mandalorian crusade."

This is exactly the way the masters saw it and why they exiled all those who fought in the war, I think. And Bastila's comments point to that, IIRC, since she speaks of how the masters saw this danger, while Carth sees only that the Republic would have fallen, if Revan had not gone to war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Another thing I should of considered is that ‘what other reason could their possibly be for Kreia’s exile’? What I mean by that is, I find it very peculiar that the Jedi Council would exile Kae for having a child, considering the fact that Jolee trained his wife against the wishes of the Jedi Council, he watched her fall to the dark side, he failed to kill her when she tried to kill him, then went on to kill other Jedi? Jolee was forgiven, but his crime is definitely worse than Kae's.
This is exactly the reason why don't believe the reason Kreia gives for Kae's exile. And note that only Kreia tells us that Kae having a child is the reason for her exile. Nobody else ever does, not even Disciple - though he does mention that Kae was exiled, he never says why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Unless of course it is not the real reason why Kae was exiled (it’s also interesting to point out that it’s Kreia who tells us this, in fact she doesn’t even say that Kae’s pregnancy was the reason for her exile, as far as I recall).
Kae's pregnancy could not have been the cause in any event, since the masters never knew of it while she was still pregnant.

Kreia: "You are spending time with the servant of Atris. I knew her mother. She was a Jedi Knight - a master, named Arren Kae. Jedi are forbidden to have children, and when the crime finally came to light almost a decade later, Kae was exiled. She joined the Mandalorian Wars after the shame of her birth was revealed. Revan welcomed her. And she was... said to be... a skilled warrior. Beautiful. And strong in the Force. The Force flows strongly in the blood of those born from Force Sensitives. I doubt that Arren was any different."


"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

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Old 10-09-2006, 02:07 PM   #57
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Wow, the debate goes up in quality! Good job.

Anyway, Jediphile, you know what? You almost conviced me! And so far it has happened very rarely that someone conviced me over the internet!

The question really is, how much of what Kreia tells us is true. Same goes for Mical, as he is under Kreia's influence.

I for myself, don't believe several of Kreia's statements.

But actually I now find it more likely that Kreia is Kae, I almost believe it. Wether handmaiden is Kreia's doughter or not, that is an entirely different story. Well not really, but I can't believe that part.
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Old 10-09-2006, 03:39 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
Wow, the debate goes up in quality! Good job.

Anyway, Jediphile, you know what? You almost conviced me! And so far it has happened very rarely that someone conviced me over the internet!
I feel so proud now. My apologies if I've been confrontational before, but it's good to see we've moved onto better things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
The question really is, how much of what Kreia tells us is true. Same goes for Mical, as he is under Kreia's influence.

I for myself, don't believe several of Kreia's statements.
True enough. Kreia definitely ranks among the people whose words I doubt. If Kreia told me that water was wet, I would immediately check for myself and ask at least two other people if she was correct

The really annoying thing about Kreia is that never tells neither the entire truth nor an entire lie. All her truths are 60% lies and all her lies are 50% truth... at least.

I do believe the Disciple, though. His mind may be controlled by Kreia, but she mostly just makes him forget things, so I think we may trust what he does say. Except perhaps when it comes to Kreia herself (as I mentioned in a previous post).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
But actually I now find it more likely that Kreia is Kae, I almost believe it. Wether handmaiden is Kreia's doughter or not, that is an entirely different story. Well not really, but I can't believe that part.
Well, as I said before, I had trouble accepting it at first myself, so I do know the feeling. Handmaiden has a sort of "child of nature" type of philosophy in how she approaches things, particularly with regards to sparring with the male Exile (whether that's just an excuse for her to take her clothes off is another can worms that I don't want to open here), and it paints her as rather innocent and perhaps even naive. And possibly too much for her own good. So to give her Kreia as a mother seems almost cruel. At least that's how I saw it at one point. But whether it's cruel or otherwise has no bearing on whether it's true or not, at least that's how I felt at one point. She's a lot like young Luke, who suddenly gets some really nasty truths showed in his face and has some trouble dealing with it. Handmaiden's story just doesn't get to that point, however, so she doesn't quite come face-to-face with it, assuming Kreia is indeed her mother.

If she is, I wonder if it was planned at one point to reveal it, or whether there were plans for a relevation in KotOR3.


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Old 10-10-2006, 01:50 AM   #59
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We all know that Kae was exiled from the Jedi Order for having a baby named Brianna, correct?

So why was Kreia exiled from the Jedi Order? From what the game says, it was from her teachings, not having a baby.





Kreia had a motive to bring down the Jedi Order because she believes their teachings are wrong. If Kreia had been kicked out based on having a baby, she would have an objective to prove the Jedi Order wrong for having children. But Kreia is against having relationships as she cautioned against mating. Kreia is not a type to fall in love and have children. It’s just not her way.

So what happened to Kreia doing the Mandalorian Wars?



It says she died. It never says she was killed. She died. People should know if they really think about it that people did die during the Mandalorian Wars that didn’t fight in the war. Just because someone mentions they died during the Mandalorian Wars, people automatically assumed they fought in them and died there. The Mandalorian Wars are a time period and the Jedi assumed Kreia died during that time period. If the statement said Kreia was killed during the Mandalorian Wars that would be a different argument, but that’s not was it says.

So why was Kreia exiled? Vrook sums it up here.



It was because of her teachings.


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Old 10-10-2006, 01:54 AM   #60
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Another thing, Arren Kae was a famous jedi guardian who attracted an echani general, Kreia said she was a historian and a teacher... slight contradiction there
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Old 10-10-2006, 02:43 AM   #61
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No, Shem, we don't know that Kae was exiled for having a baby. The only source of that information is Kreia, and she lied to the player alot, making everything she said suspect. And who says a guardian can not be a historian? Not every lightsaber wielder is a moron. Kavar came up with the plan for the jedi council to go into hiding, and he was a guardian. And besides that... all jedi masters taught.
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Old 10-10-2006, 03:28 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by General Jerrik
No, Shem, we don't know that Kae was exiled for having a baby. The only source of that information is Kreia, and she lied to the player alot, making everything she said suspect.
Even Brianna called her birth shamed.

Anyway, if you're going to rely on it being a Kreia lie, that's not a strong argument.

The point is the story of Kreia and the Exile is over, yet no revelation about some secret twist was revealed (even Mike Gallo said that there wasn't one). Why hold back? Why hide something like this (Brianna being Kreia's child)? What's the point? Kreia dies, and the Exile goes out in the outer regions of space to find the true Sith. End of story. These elements are finished and new ones will happen if there is a KOTOR III. I see no logic in hiding something like that if it was meant to be true.

People cling to ideas like this to add excitement. Let's face it, TSL has lost most of its NEW excitement and having a twist adds to the rush of the new excitement we as human beings crave. There is no truth to this rumor.

Let's face it, if Kreia had a baby, she wouldn't give it up, she would keep it and use it for her purposes. The last thing she would do is give it up to Atris to watch over because she hates Atris.


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Old 10-10-2006, 05:42 AM   #63
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thank you shem for clearing this up as is said before pay attention to the story and the answers are thier but i will admit that thier are a lot of similarites between kreia and arren kae but thats all they are similarites my cousin and i were thought to be brothers when we were kids because we look very similar and have similar attitudes and voices.
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Old 10-10-2006, 09:37 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
We all know that Kae was exiled from the Jedi Order for having a baby named Brianna, correct?

So why was Kreia exiled from the Jedi Order? From what the game says, it was from her teachings, not having a baby.
The main setback with this base argument is this; Who told you this information? KREIA! The justification of who was exiled for what reason goes right out the window when you look at the source of the information. Kreia is the only one who tells you why both she and Arren Kae were exiled.

Could you be completely certain that she was ever telling telling the Exile the truth? If she is Arren Kae (which I think she is) and she did not want you to know it, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that she would tell you a lie? I certainly think it would.

Also, there is something else you are not looking at, but instead of repeating myself, I’ll quote myself…

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Another thing I should of considered is that ‘what other reason could their possibly be for Kreia’s exile’? What I mean by that is, I find it very peculiar that the Jedi Council would exile Kae for having a child, considering the fact that Jolee trained his wife against the wishes of the Jedi Council, he watched her fall to the dark side, he failed to kill her when she tried to kill him, then went on to kill other Jedi? Jolee was forgiven, but his crime is definitely worse than Kae's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
Kreia had a motive to bring down the Jedi Order because she believes their teachings are wrong. If Kreia had been kicked out based on having a baby, she would have an objective to prove the Jedi Order wrong for having children. But Kreia is against having relationships as she cautioned against mating. Kreia is not a type to fall in love and have children. It’s just not her way.
You may think that Kreia isn't the type to fall in love and have children, but that doesn't necessarily make it true. People can change you know, and I personally think Kreia could have 'loved', before she 'changed'...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
It says she died. It never says she was killed. She died. People should know if they really think about it that people did die during the Mandalorian Wars that didn’t fight in the war. Just because someone mentions they died during the Mandalorian Wars, people automatically assumed they fought in them and died there. The Mandalorian Wars are a time period and the Jedi assumed Kreia died during that time period. If the statement said Kreia was killed during the Mandalorian Wars that would be a different argument, but that’s not was it says.
Although, Master Kavar doesn't say "I thought you had died during the Mandalorian Wars" he says "I thought had you died in the Mandalorian Wars." That to me suggests that Kreia did fight in the Mandalorian Wars.

Now, why would the Jedi Order assume that Kreia died in the Mandalorian Wars? (Apart from the possibility that she did fight in the wars, but wasn't seen in the Jedi Civil War by anyone from the Jedi Order).

Nevertheless, the Jedi Order exiled Kae and in any event, they wouldn't expect to see her again, but that does not mean she died (just because they haven't seen her since her exile). Anyway it doesn't matter, since it neither proves nor disproves that Kreia is Arren Kae.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
So why was Kreia exiled? Vrook sums it up here.

It was because of her teachings.
I know it was. What I don't agree with is that Kae was exiled for having a baby (for reasons stated above). It is a myth and it doesn't make sense...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
Another thing, Arren Kae was a famous jedi guardian who attracted an echani general, Kreia said she was a historian and a teacher... slight contradiction there
No, there is no contradiction there. Why couldn't Arren Kae be a famous Jedi Guardian and a historian/teacher?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
The point is the story of Kreia and the Exile is over, yet no revelation about some secret twist was revealed (even Mike Gallo said that there wasn't one). Why hold back? Why hide something like this (Brianna being Kreia's child)? What's the point? Kreia dies, and the Exile goes out in the outer regions of space to find the true Sith. End of story. These elements are finished and new ones will happen if there is a KOTOR III. I see no logic in hiding something like that if it was meant to be true.

People cling to ideas like this to add excitement. Let's face it, TSL has lost most of its NEW excitement and having a twist adds to the rush of the new excitement we as human beings crave. There is no truth to this rumor.

Let's face it, if Kreia had a baby, she wouldn't give it up, she would keep it and use it for her purposes. The last thing she would do is give it up to Atris to watch over because she hates Atris.
Why do you think that for some reason it would have to be addressed in the game? Maybe the devs were thinking about this, but didn't put it in (either because it was their choice or because it was something they had to cut due to time-constraints) and instead, just left it to be speculated.

There is no need to reveal it, why would it be something that has to be revealed? Actually, I'd be surprised if Kreia did reveal it, because it doesn't match with her character. Can you imagine her saying something along the lines of...

Kreia: "I'm heading off to the Trayus Core now. But before I go, I thought I'd let you know something Brianna."

Brianna: "What?"

Kreia "Atris never told you what happened to your mother did she?"

Brianna: "She told me enough. She told me she fought and died in the Mandalorian Wars."

Kreia: "No, Brianna! I AM your mother!"

Brianna: "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!"

Kreia: "Search your feelings Brianna, you know it to be true."

Quote:
Originally Posted by reven0123
thank you shem for clearing this up as is said before pay attention to the story and the answers are thier but i will admit that thier are a lot of similarites between kreia and arren kae but thats all they are similarites my cousin and i were thought to be brothers when we were kids because we look very similar and have similar attitudes and voices.
First you said it was a fact that Kreia isn't Arren Kae, then you say it's only your opinion that she isn't Arren Kae, and now you say that it's a fact that Kreia isn't Arren Kae. Make up your mind.

I don’t have anything against people who don’t believe that Kreia is Arren Kae, but I do have a problem with people saying that it is not possible or that it's a fact that she isn't without providing proof to support that claim. To make that claim and then accuse other people of ‘not paying attention to the story’ and so on for claiming otherwise based on the origin of observations quoted directly from the game does not give the impression that the foundation of this discussion is reasonable, don't you think?

Whether you like it or not, there is no proof that Kreia is/isn't Arren Kae. That is a fact....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
So the only instance I've been able to find of a character (other than the Exile, who knows of this only through others) is Brianna mentioning it while mentioning that the body was never recovered. If you've ever watched a Bond movie or read about how villains die in comic books, then alarms should go off right there

Now, I do not claim that there may not be other references to Arren Kae's fate that I may have overlooked. I searched for "Kae" thoughout the entire dialog.tlk file, and though she is mentioned at other times, these are the only ones where she is said to be dead. Neither Kreia, Disciple or Zez-Kai Ell ever say that she has died, though they all talk about her. And they should all know better than the Exile or Handmaiden, who never even knew Kae.


Another minor clue: Look at Handmaiden's dialogue above. She specifically says, "I never saw her face" about her mother. What's the significance of that statement? Why is it mentioned? It could be a way to signal to us, that even if Handmaiden ever met her mother, she would have no way of recognizing her...
What I've highlighted from you're quote (that you haven't already highlighted from your own quote) basically sums up my reply here. Also, I agree that when the Handmaiden says "I never saw her face" there has to be some purpose behind that quote. Either way, it cannot be argued that the Handmaiden would recognize her mother if she saw her, because she never saw her face.

I read the dialogue between Kreia and Disciple, and I'm not sure it really hints at anything that suggests Kreia is Kae, perhaps the "You know who I am..." from Kreia could be considered as a clue, but it's difficult to determine if the conversation has any relevance to the Kreia/Kae debate IMO, I don't really think it does. I think it has more to do with the 'Darth Traya' revelation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I suspect the reason for the confusion on this subject is due to things being retconned in TSL. As you say, in KotOR1 the masters are dismissive of Revan's choice to go to war, but do not seem to have done much beyond that until Revan returned to conquer the Republic. In TSL, however, we learn that they exiled all those who followed Revan to war and considered them to have fallen to the dark side. Some people dislike this in TSL, and frankly it is a little annoying, but then these things happen frequently in sequels, or so it seems to me. Suffice it to say that when it comes to Kreia and Arren Kae (whether they are the same person or not), we should look at how events have unfolded according to TSL, since neither are ever mentioned in the original game's plot.

So while in KotOR the masters simply don't know what happened to Revan and his forces after the Mandalorian Wars, in TSL they were all exiled anyway, since they defied the council when they went to war. Thus they were all considered to have fallen to the dark side, because the council felt that going to war meant embracing the dark side. Bastila makes a few comments to that end even in KotOR. Or as Kreia puts it:

Kreia: "Many believed the Mandalorians defeated at Malachor V. But the Mandalorians taught the Jedi much through battle. And so it was that Malak, Revan, and the Jedi that followed them discovered their true natures in the Mandalorian crusade."

This is exactly the way the masters saw it and why they exiled all those who fought in the war, I think. And Bastila's comments point to that, IIRC, since she speaks of how the masters saw this danger, while Carth sees only that the Republic would have fallen, if Revan had not gone to war.
Oh I see, it's a bit like how in KotOR BioWare's idea was that Revan fell to the dark-side and was corrupted by the Star Forge, but in KotOR II, Obsidian's idea is that perhaps Revan never fell to the dark-side, but sacrificed himself/herself to the dark-side because he/she saw a greater threat. Nevertheless, Kreia was definitely exiled during the Mandalorian Wars because of 'her teachings'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
This is exactly the reason why don't believe the reason Kreia gives for Kae's exile. And note that only Kreia tells us that Kae having a child is the reason for her exile. Nobody else ever does, not even Disciple - though he does mention that Kae was exiled, he never says why.
Exactly. This whole 'Kae was exiled for having a baby' is a myth. If Kreia was Arren Kae and she didn't want the Exile to know that she was, of course she would lie to the Exile about the 'reasons for Kae's exile'.

EDIT: Stupid me. Kreia never said that Kae was exiled for having a baby, she just hints at it strongly. Why the hell did I say that Kreia said the reason for Kae's exile was because she had a baby?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Kae's pregnancy could not have been the cause in any event, since the masters never knew of it while she was still pregnant.

Kreia: "You are spending time with the servant of Atris. I knew her mother. She was a Jedi Knight - a master, named Arren Kae. Jedi are forbidden to have children, and when the crime finally came to light almost a decade later, Kae was exiled. She joined the Mandalorian Wars after the shame of her birth was revealed. Revan welcomed her. And she was... said to be... a skilled warrior. Beautiful. And strong in the Force. The Force flows strongly in the blood of those born from Force Sensitives. I doubt that Arren was any different."
You know, it's odd how Kreia says to the Exile "I knew her mother" and then in that same paragraph she says "And she was...said to be..." Didn't she just say she knew her mother? "She was... said to be... a skilled warrior. Beautiful. And strong in the Force."

What do you mean 'she was said to be'? If she knew Kae, she would of known that she was a skilled warrior who was beautiful and strong in the force, not 'she was said to be'. She makes it sound as if she never knew Kae, but she said she knew her. What the hell?

Last edited by The Architect; 10-12-2006 at 02:01 AM.
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Old 10-10-2006, 10:09 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
We all know that Kae was exiled from the Jedi Order for having a baby named Brianna, correct?
Actually, we know only that Kreia infers that this is the reason for Kae's exile. Nobody else ever says this is why Kae was exiled, and even Kreia only infers it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
So why was Kreia exiled from the Jedi Order? From what the game says, it was from her teachings, not having a baby.





Kreia had a motive to bring down the Jedi Order because she believes their teachings are wrong. If Kreia had been kicked out based on having a baby, she would have an objective to prove the Jedi Order wrong for having children. But Kreia is against having relationships as she cautioned against mating. Kreia is not a type to fall in love and have children. It’s just not her way.
It isn't in TSL, no, but Kreia has lived a long life. Perhaps there is a reason why she feels this way now? Perhaps she speaks from bad experiences? Whether Kreia is Kae or not, she was not born as a manipulative, enigmatic old hag. She was a different person once. She was even a respected historian of the jedi order, which is very clearly a different person in a different time than the one we get to see in TSL. The fact that people change over time is one of the things that makes them interesting in the first place...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
So what happened to Kreia doing the Mandalorian Wars?



It says she died. It never says she was killed. She died. People should know if they really think about it that people did die during the Mandalorian Wars that didn’t fight in the war. Just because someone mentions they died during the Mandalorian Wars, people automatically assumed they fought in them and died there. The Mandalorian Wars are a time period and the Jedi assumed Kreia died during that time period. If the statement said Kreia was killed during the Mandalorian Wars that would be a different argument, but that’s not was it says.
A very short time period. The Mandalorian Wars began - as far as the jedi are concerned - in 3963 BBY, when Revan and Malak went to war, and ended in 3960 BBY after the Battle of Malachor. That doesn't mean your interpretation is impossible, but it would beg the question of why the line is then "I thought you had died in the Mandalorian Wars..." and not "I thought you had died during the Mandalorian Wars..." There is a meaningful distinction between the two, if you ask me, and in any event, your interpretation is certainly not the only one possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
So why was Kreia exiled? Vrook sums it up here.



It was because of her teachings.
Has anyone claimed otherwise? Not that I have seen. No, it's the reasons given for Kae being exiled that is in question, not Kreia's. To quote The Architect, who said it quite well IMHO:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Another thing I should of considered is that ‘what other reason could their possibly be for Kreia’s exile’? What I mean by that is, I find it very peculiar that the Jedi Council would exile Kae for having a child, considering the fact that Jolee trained his wife against the wishes of the Jedi Council, he watched her fall to the dark side, he failed to kill her when she tried to kill him, then went on to kill other Jedi? Jolee was forgiven, but his crime is definitely worse than Kae's.

Unless of course it is not the real reason why Kae was exiled (it’s also interesting to point out that it’s Kreia who tells us this, in fact she doesn’t even say that Kae’s pregnancy was the reason for her exile, as far as I recall).
And no, she doesn't actually, though she does infer it. I'll get to that below...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny C
Another thing, Arren Kae was a famous jedi guardian who attracted an echani general, Kreia said she was a historian and a teacher... slight contradiction there
Jedi Knight is a measure of of experience and dedication to the jedi order, not one of disposition towards how you serve the order. Being a consular never stopped Qui-Gon from being a knight or Yoda from being a master. Being a guardian didn't stop Obi-Wan from being an investigator or a master. Indeed, for a LSM Exile, Kreia predicts that Brianna will take Atris' role of historian, yet Brianna becomes a jedi guardian, not a consular. Any jedi of sufficient experience and dedication to the order may become a knight, regardless of how many or few battles he or she has fought. Atris seems to have never fought and yet became a master on the council...

EDIT: Just realized the comment was on a jedi guardian, not knight. My apologies. Where exactly do we learn that Kae was a guardian? Kreia says Kae was a jedi knight, which is a rank. Jedi guardian, however, is a class in the d20 system, and the game makes very few references to classes other than the Exile's choices. So where did it say she was a guardian?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
Even Brianna called her birth shamed.
Yes, but only in relation to her father disgracing himself for going to war and having a child with a woman he had not pledged himself to, which would be the mother of the Handmaiden sisters. Brianna does not judge whether her mother was also shamed in any way. How could she? She never knew her... She never mentions disgrace or shame for her mother.

Handmaiden: "Yusanis, an Echani general. He left our family to serve in the Mandalorian Wars. But his choice was not because of battle. He went to join my mother, one whose movements and spirit matched his. His only desire was that they fight together, side by side, for as long as there were enemies amassed against them. I never saw her face, and she did not return from the final battle of the war. She died in the battle that shattered Malachor V, and her body was never recovered. My father returned from the Mandalorian Wars and did not enter battle again. He entered politics, a caste where one's battles are fought through words rather than action. He was slain by Revan in the Jedi Civil War when Revan sought to destabilize the Echani worlds. Revan succeeded. The fact that our father chose battle is not shameful, but that is not the reason he went to war. He went to war to be with the one he loved, but not the one he had pledged himself to. He was disloyal. I am the mark of that disloyalty. It is said that such things run in the blood, and I have fought long to prove that this is not so. That is why I am different from my sisters. Yet I am pledged to them and Atris, and I would die before betraying them.I tell you this in trust, and ask that you not speak of it to others. I only wish you to know.Because when my father returned from the Mandalorian Wars, he walked as you do now. There was something wounded inside him. He did not speak of what had happened there. And with us, he was silent. Changed. When I look upon you, I see in you an answer to a question I have searched for all my life. And that is why I tell you this now. I do not believe you to be the monster Atris made you out to be. I believe your choice was my father's choice, and it was just as difficult. I do not claim to understand you. There are times when your actions are a mystery to me - but I do not wish my actions to be a mystery to you.Malachor V is the place where I lost my mother and my father. But it was their choice to fight the Mandalorians - and to die there, if Malachor was to be their grave."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
Anyway, if you're going to rely on it being a Kreia lie, that's not a strong argument.
Why? Kreia certainly is trying to hide her identity, as can be evidenced by how she manipulates the disciple's mind, so if she is Kae, then it would make a lot of sense for her to claim another reason for Kae's exile.

And note that even Kreia doesn't actually say that this is the reason for Kae's exile, she just says that Kae was exiled at the time when it was revealed that she had had a child. Now, I agree that it is certainly inferred that this is the reason, but if there is one character in the game whose words you should examine carefully and assume to contain alternate meanings, then it is definitely Kreia.

Kreia: "You are spending time with the servant of Atris. I knew her mother. She was a Jedi Knight - a master, named Arren Kae. Jedi are forbidden to have children, and when the crime finally came to light almost a decade later, Kae was exiled. She joined the Mandalorian Wars after the shame of her birth was revealed. Revan welcomed her. And she was... said to be... a skilled warrior. Beautiful. And strong in the Force. The Force flows strongly in the blood of those born from Force Sensitives. I doubt that Arren was any different."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
The point is the story of Kreia and the Exile is over, yet no revelation about some secret twist was revealed (even Mike Gallo said that there wasn't one). Why hold back? Why hide something like this (Brianna being Kreia's child)? What's the point? Kreia dies, and the Exile goes out in the outer regions of space to find the true Sith. End of story. These elements are finished and new ones will happen if there is a KOTOR III. I see no logic in hiding something like that if it was meant to be true.
So because it was not revealed that Kreia is Kae then it cannot be true? That sounds like a circular argument to me. Is it not equally valid for me to conclude then, that Revan is dead, since he never appears in the game? I mean, if the game is over anyway? Or I could conclude that Bao-Dur is dead, since Kreia has no predictions for him, and he won't appear again since the he is tied to the Exile's story, which is now done?

I wish I had your insights into whether the exile's story is over, because I'm far less certain than you are. I still think there are a lot of unexplained information about the Exile that may be taken up in KotOR3. After all, TSL was intended to have a sequel until Lucasarts fired a lot of people, IIRC.

What, the Exile going off to find the true Sith has no story potential? Kreia may be dead, but Handmaiden is not (at least not if you played Exile as LSM).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
People cling to ideas like this to add excitement. Let's face it, TSL has lost most of its NEW excitement and having a twist adds to the rush of the new excitement we as human beings crave. There is no truth to this rumor.
That's an opinion, not a fact. You're entitled to yours, but then so are the rest of us. And people are not wrong just because they don't agree with you. They are wrong only if there is evidence that proves Kreia is not Kae. So far nobody has managed to provide that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
Let's face it, if Kreia had a baby, she wouldn't give it up, she would keep it and use it for her purposes. The last thing she would do is give it up to Atris to watch over because she hates Atris.
First of all, for that to be true you'd have to see Kreia as unchanged over the years, and we know that she was not. She was once very much like Atris is during the game, and once she was even a jedi master who commanded respect on the council. She was not always the manipulative Kreia we know. People change over time, and Kreia certainly has changed more than most, going from being a jedi master to a sith lord to being neither and then being a sith lord again. Even if you don't think she is Kae, she nevertheless did train Revan within the order, which certainly tells us that she was once a very different person than the Kreia we know. Like I said, the fact that people change is what makes them interesting...

Second, assuming she is Kae, she never gave Brianna up to Atris. As a master, Kae could never raise her own child, and this is true whether Kreia is Kae or not. Instead it seems Yusanis or someone else raised her. Kae certainly did not. And when Kae was exiled - again, regardless of reasons or whether she is Kreia - she still did not go off to raise her child, but rather went to fight in the Mandalorian Wars. Those are indisputable facts. It is only after the end of the Mandalorian Wars that she could ever have raised her child. If Kreia is not Kae, then Kae died at this point, but if she is Kae, then she fell to the dark side and became Darth Traya, in which case Yusanis would never have allowed her near Brianna. It is only when Yusanis is killed by Revan, at which point Brianna would be at least 17, that Kreia could ever have exerted any influence over her, at which point Brianna would be far more difficult to manipulate and shape, since she is practically an adult already. Besides, being a Sith Lord at the time, I doubt she would have cared much. And it is doubtful that she would have known of the Handmaiden sisters, including Brianna, falling under Atris' influence on Telos in any event.

Besides, maybe even Kreia had some love for her offspring and did not want her to risk corruption of the dark side as she had. Even Vader couldn't bring himself to kill his own son.


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Old 10-11-2006, 04:30 PM   #66
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OMG. I wanted to contribute to this thread, but some of the posters have to write a 'Dear Lucas' letter. Wow.



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Old 10-12-2006, 01:14 AM   #67
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I have idea why we don't have the answer in game - you (officaly) can't have Brianna as female and whole mother-daughter story couldn't happen, so female exiles couldn't have such dramatical point in their game.
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Old 10-12-2006, 01:44 AM   #68
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I have idea why we don't have the answer in game - you (officaly) can't have Brianna as female and whole mother-daughter story couldn't happen, so female exiles couldn't have such dramatical point in their game.
I could be wrong, but I don't think they actually decided on the Exile being canonically female until well after the game came out. Speculation on Wookieepedia suggests it was desired long before it was officially made so, but I doubt a decision was made when the plot was being written...

Still, you could be right that just the fact that they had not decided to make the Exile male could have been a deciding factor.

But somehow it's also fitting for Kreia - she's always enigmatic and insist on knowing more than anyone else, even if she has to take her secrets to the grave with her. I think it suits the character... I rather like the evil, old hag


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Old 10-14-2006, 08:03 AM   #69
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Something I'd like to point out in this debate is that one of the biggest arguments used by people who don't think Kreia is Arren Kae is that...

Kreia was exiled because of 'her teachings'...
Kae was exiled for having a baby...

But here's the thing...no one ever says that Kae was exiled for having a baby, not even Kreia! It's a common misinterpretation...

Kreia: "You are spending time with the servant of Atris. I knew her mother. She was a Jedi Knight - a master, named Arren Kae. Jedi are forbidden to have children, and when the crime finally came to light almost a decade later, Kae was exiled. She joined the Mandalorian Wars after the shame of her birth was revealed. Revan welcomed her. And she was... said to be... a skilled warrior. Beautiful. And strong in the Force. The Force flows strongly in the blood of those born from Force Sensitives. I doubt that Arren was any different."

Look carefully. Yes, Kreia strongly infers that Kae was exiled for having a baby, but she only tells us when Kae was exiled, not why. I always found it odd how people concluded that this very piece of dialogue (that I listened to myself) was the proof of why Kae was exiled, since Kreia never actually says that Kae was exiled because she had a baby.

Even if people assume that Kreia has told us why Kae was exiled from the Jedi Order, there's three other problems with this argument...

A) The source of the information...Kreia! (Although this argument is irrelevant, since she never tells you that Kae was exiled because she had a baby, but she definitely infers it)...
B) No one else tells you why Kae was exiled (but that's just it. No one at all tells you why Kae was exiled)...

C) I'll quote myself here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Another thing I should of considered is that ‘what other reason could their possibly be for Kreia’s exile’? What I mean by that is, I find it very peculiar that the Jedi Council would exile Kae for having a child, considering the fact that Jolee trained his wife against the wishes of the Jedi Council, he watched her fall to the dark side, he failed to kill her when she tried to kill him, then went on to kill other Jedi? Jolee was forgiven, but his crime is definitely worse than Kae's.
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Old 10-14-2006, 06:44 PM   #70
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Oh and sorry if someone already said it, but we know Kreia and Kae were masters of Revan. Zez-Ki-El says Kae was a master of Revan. Kreia tells u she was a master of Revan....

Zez-Ki-El blames some of Revan's masters for his falling, and says Zhar and KAE. Kreia was exiled for her teachings of Revan that possibly led to him falling to the darkside, yet the other jedi masters never say Kreia. When Kreia tells you of the jedi masters who taught Revan wrong, she fails to mention Kae...

Also, do we know how many masters Revan had, or is it unkown?

I know of 3 masters who did teach him. Unfortunatly I forgot the name of one of them, but the other two are Zhar and Kae

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Old 10-14-2006, 08:26 PM   #71
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My biggest problem about this theory is it's too complicated. Meaning too many elements have to be relied on in order for it to be true. You have to rely on some lies and depend on some statements being lies.

From my past experience about theories, if you have to go the extreme to make a theory work, it's never true. I've seen too many people's theories go down in flames because of it.

In the case of this theory, there is no need for Mike Gallo to go back and explore it because I truly believe it isn't there. There's nothing to explore. That is why it wasn't put in the storyline.

Kreia's age is too much of a factor, the idea of her giving up her child and allowing Atris to have her rather than using the child for her own purpose is not in her character. Relying on her changing SOOOO much during that time is too much to expect. People in their 50's do not change a whole till the time they die.

There's so much more that needs to be in place in order to make this work. I truly believe if it was true, somehow the writers of TSL would have found a way to reveal that in some sorts. If KOTOR III is made, this storyline will not be explored because I know the Exile's role is done, just like Revan's. The PC in KOTOR III will be someone new in the Jedi Order to keep things more simple because of the choices of light and dark, gender, and appearance issues. You'll hear of both characters, but seeing them in another thing. You have a much better chance of Revan being shown because of Revan's robes with a mask option. The Exile didn't have such an outfit to wear. With that in mind, Kreia being dead, we'll never hear from Brianna again, along with Atton, Mira/Hanharr, Mical, and Visas since Kreia mentions their futures. Not even Bao-Dur. The only party members I can see coming back for sure would be HK-47 and T3-M4, but I wouldn't count on even that. Maybe Canderous.

The thing is this theory is a stalemate in the fact that there is no new evidence going to come forward and the clues of it are too vague and both sides won't give. It's that simple. To me theories are theories that aren't factual until proven otherwise. Which means it's not true until there is undeniable proof. The problem is there is no potential proof coming.

Mike Gallo has no reason to explore Kreia and Brianna's past when other much more important things to cover. It wasn't even important enough to explore in TSL, rather than be brought up in a future game sequel. What makes anybody think that KOTOR III would cover this when TSL should have? It's like with AOTC. People got obsessed with Sifo-Dyas and lots of theories came from it and made me laugh. To me he wasn't really that important. His name was just used to make a clone order, nothing more to read into it. People thought it sounded too close to Sidious that there had to be a connection and maybe they were the same person. Others thought that Sifo-Dyas has Dooku's Jedi name, and then the a new theory came out when Grievous was introduced that he was Sifo-Dyas. The point was Lucas never went back to it in ROTS because there was so much more important issues to talk about that such a small back story wasn't really that important. Sort of the same thing here. It wasn't important enough to be explored in TSL, so it won't be the next game. It's just another classic case of someone reading too much into things like they did in the Prequel Trilogy, which lead to a lot of people being disappointed because of it. Brianna being Kreia's child would be a huge twist and Mike Gallo said there isn't any in TSL. That's enough for me, take it as you will.


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Old 10-14-2006, 10:45 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
My biggest problem about this theory is it's too complicated. Meaning too many elements have to be relied on in order for it to be true. You have to rely on some lies and depend on some statements being lies.
Not really. The only thing you could say that about is the reason Kreia gives for Kae's exile and even that need not be a lie when you consider how Kreia decided to word it. Only Brianna and the Exile ever say that Kae is dead, but then neither of them ever knew her...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
From my past experience about theories, if you have to go the extreme to make a theory work, it's never true. I've seen too many people's theories go down in flames because of it.
Not impossible, but being complex does not under a theory all by itself, and there is circumstantial evidence to suggest that Kreia might be Kae. And to phrase Sherlock Holmes, "if you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." Given that Kreia declares herself to be Revan's first and last master, agrees with Disciple that Revan went back to his first master in the end, and that Disciple mentions Kae as Revan's earliest master, then it would seem obvious, however improbably, that Kreia is Kae. It's that simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
In the case of this theory, there is no need for Mike Gallo to go back and explore it because I truly believe it isn't there. There's nothing to explore. That is why it wasn't put in the storyline.
That still looks like a circular argument to me. There is no specific reason why things like this cannot be put in a plot without necessarily being revealed. Things happening at various levels of the plot without being revealed in the greater plot overall is not so uncommon. I still believe that is the true of the Matrix sequels, for example. And it's just left there to ponder about. I see nothing wrong with a plot that leaves a few ends slightly unresolved. It's not as if every secret must be dragged into the light for it to be true. Besides, big secrets in Kreia's past that are unrevealed fits the character rather will, I think. And naturally that's all assuming it won't serve as a set-up for a plot twist in a sequel, which I certainly couldn't rule out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
Kreia's age is too much of a factor, the idea of her giving up her child and allowing Atris to have her rather than using the child for her own purpose is not in her character. Relying on her changing SOOOO much during that time is too much to expect. People in their 50's do not change a whole till the time they die.
1. We don't know Kreia's age, and given her connection to the dark side, deciding her age purely on her physical appearance is doubtful at best.

2. Kae, whether Kreia or not, NEVER gave up Brianna to Atris. There is nothing to suggest that ever happened. On the contrary, Brianna's heritage was not known until a decade after her birth, during which time Kae couldn't have raised her without giving away the truth of her birth, and after which Kae was exiled and left for the war. And at no point during all this would Brianna have had any connection to Atris. That only came later due to her being one of the handmaiden sisters. There is no "giving Brianna up" angle to consider - it is simply a non-issue.

3. Kreia has seen more hardship than most people. And as for people not changing after they reach the age of 50, I guess I can say only that I disagree rather a lot. People change constantly, even after the age of 50. The only time they stop ever changing is when they die...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
There's so much more that needs to be in place in order to make this work. I truly believe if it was true, somehow the writers of TSL would have found a way to reveal that in some sorts. If KOTOR III is made, this storyline will not be explored because I know the Exile's role is done, just like Revan's. The PC in KOTOR III will be someone new in the Jedi Order to keep things more simple because of the choices of light and dark, gender, and appearance issues. You'll hear of both characters, but seeing them in another thing. You have a much better chance of Revan being shown because of Revan's robes with a mask option. The Exile didn't have such an outfit to wear.
Well, I agree insofar that I don't think we'll see Revan or Exile as the main character again. But if we compare that argument to TSL, then I don't see your logic, because we never meet or even see Revan in TSL (unless you count the vision on Korriban). So by this logic, we should not have found out anything about Revan, which is clearly not the case - we learn an awful lot about Revan in TSL, perhaps even more than we did in KotOR. So there would seem to be no particular reason why we couldn't find out just as much about Exile and companions in KotOR3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
With that in mind, Kreia being dead, we'll never hear from Brianna again, along with Atton, Mira/Hanharr, Mical, and Visas since Kreia mentions their futures. Not even Bao-Dur. The only party members I can see coming back for sure would be HK-47 and T3-M4, but I wouldn't count on even that. Maybe Canderous.
She mentions their futures, yes, but they are not very detailed, and only speak to rather general terms. I see nothing in the predictions that would preclude those characters from appearing in KotOR3, unless they were killed by the plot, of course (but then they wouldn't be in the predictions in the first place...). I do agree that only HK and T3 are likely to be companions in the next game, but that does not mean that old characters could not appear. Both Bastila and Carth (if alive) appear in TSL, for example, even though they are not companions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
The thing is this theory is a stalemate in the fact that there is no new evidence going to come forward and the clues of it are too vague and both sides won't give. It's that simple. To me theories are theories that aren't factual until proven otherwise. Which means it's not true until there is undeniable proof. The problem is there is no potential proof coming.
Well, to me this is the age-old question of whether the bottle is half-full or half-empty. To you it's not true because there is no conclusive evidence that Kreia is Kae. And I would point out that I have consistently said so from the very beginning of the discussion. To me, however, the bottle is half-full, because there are clues in the game that do suggest that Kreia might be Kae, while all information that suggest the opposite in the plot come from sources that are highly quesitonable and therefore serve more to strengthen the theory rather than weakening it.

But I don't see why you say that "neither side will give." If Kreia is not Kae, then I'm perfectly willing to accept that. However, since there are clues in the game to suggest that Kreia could be Kae, I would need to see compelling evidence that disproves it before I'd dismiss the idea. I can't say whether others who think that Kreia might be Kae, as I do, feel the same way, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
Mike Gallo has no reason to explore Kreia and Brianna's past when other much more important things to cover. It wasn't even important enough to explore in TSL, rather than be brought up in a future game sequel. What makes anybody think that KOTOR III would cover this when TSL should have? It's like with AOTC. People got obsessed with Sifo-Dyas and lots of theories came from it and made me laugh. To me he wasn't really that important. His name was just used to make a clone order, nothing more to read into it. People thought it sounded too close to Sidious that there had to be a connection and maybe they were the same person. Others thought that Sifo-Dyas has Dooku's Jedi name, and then the a new theory came out when Grievous was introduced that he was Sifo-Dyas. The point was Lucas never went back to it in ROTS because there was so much more important issues to talk about that such a small back story wasn't really that important.
There is speculation that the Sidious/Sifo-Dyas names were intentionally similar because there was a connection that Lucas later dropped. We don't know if that's the case and whether Lucas just dropped the idea later, but just because it was later made not so does not mean that Lucas didn't consider it at one point. What if Lucas admitted that this was the plan at one point in an interview tomorrow? Would that then suddenly mean that Kreia could be Kae after all? To me that looks just like the sort of complex theory that you seem concerned about... I mean, when they did "Empire Strikes Back", the "there is another" that Yoda refers to was NOT Leia, but it was made to mean Leia later, because Lucas lost interest in his creation and didn't want to do more movies to explain this after ROTJ. Does this mean that all those who thought there were more unrevealed secrets out there (or who just thought it wasn't Leia) were idiots because they were proven wrong? Well, at one point they were absolutely right, so where does that leave us? Kreia could still be MADE into Kae, or she could have been Kae and be made into not being Kae yet. Leaving unresolved secrets in the plot like that is quite common, because it gives the plotwriter something to build on if there is a sequel at some point. It also helps the make the world he describes more complex and interesting, since it means that not EVERYTHING in his universe just MUST be fitted neatly and packaged nicely into the grand design of the whole. If everything in a plot always fits conveniently, then it hurts the credibility of the plot, because reality itself is always far more complex than that. Leaving unsolved sideplots is quite a common way to avoid that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
Sort of the same thing here. It wasn't important enough to be explored in TSL, so it won't be the next game.
Why did Revan fall to the dark side prior to KotOR1? We didn't know, because it was never important enough to explore in the game itself. It certainly was explored in TSL, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
It's just another classic case of someone reading too much into things like they did in the Prequel Trilogy, which lead to a lot of people being disappointed because of it. Brianna being Kreia's child would be a huge twist and Mike Gallo said there isn't any in TSL. That's enough for me, take it as you will.
Fine for you, but please show the rest of us a little respect. I do find it rather impolite to be told that I'm just "reading too much into things" simply because I disagree with you. Nothing wrong in you disagreeing with me. But it does seem rather impolite and disrespectful to me that you basically suggest that those who feel different than you do are just "reading too much into things". The simply truth is that we don't know if Kreia is Kae, so by disagreeing with that sort of comment infers that we're just wrong, which is not very nice. Basically it's the old argument that "people who like ice-cream are stupid, and I can't help it if you like ice-cream"-argument. Or in this case, "people who think Kreia is Kae are just reading too much into things, and I can't help it if you think Kreia is Kae."


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Old 10-15-2006, 01:56 AM   #73
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Your acting like its fact that KOTOR III wont have anything to do with the exile/Revan. Where the heck are you getting your ideas? Im not saying your wrong about the possibility of kOTOR III not being related to I/TSL but to say it deffinatly wont be is very far fetched. They left a huge cliff-hanger, and people want to see what happens, they want to finally end this whole story with few questions at the end, if there are quetions theyll be minor ones that can be told by stories, but some things have to be seen and experienced.

Whether or not we find out about Kreia/Bianca relation in KOTOR III is difficult to say. This whole thing coulda been an accident the devs didnt realise til after the game came out, in which they might tell u the conclusion to it in KOTOR III. Theyll probably just have a short paragraph in a datapad or by Bianca saying she found out Kreia was her mother, or found out Kreia wasnt here mother (the reason she wondered was because she connnected the dots), but I doubt itll be a quest or main part of the story.

In KOTOR III, im hoping they resolve the big mysteries and stories by the end of the game. TSL had a bit too many whispers and not enough talk, plus all those backround stories for HK/TelosBase and such that u couldnt access cause they cut it out of the game. If your gonna make something look accesible either make it accessible or let the person know theres nothing interesting there.
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Old 10-22-2006, 01:26 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by BanthaFodder01
I know of 3 masters who did teach him. Unfortunatly I forgot the name of one of them, but the other two are Zhar and Kae
The other one would be Dorak.
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Old 10-29-2006, 08:49 PM   #75
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well i personally believe she is, whether obsidian wanted 2 tease us by not directly saying it or it was a cut scenario, its just 2 much 2 b a coincidence.
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Old 11-06-2006, 04:39 AM   #76
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Although, Master Kavar doesn't say "I thought you had died during the Mandalorian Wars" he says "I thought had you died in the Mandalorian Wars." That to me suggests that Kreia did fight in the Mandalorian Wars.

Now, why would the Jedi Order assume that Kreia died in the Mandalorian Wars? (Apart from the possibility that she did fight in the wars, but wasn't seen in the Jedi Civil War by anyone from the Jedi Order).

Nevertheless, the Jedi Order exiled Kae and in any event, they wouldn't expect to see her again, but that does not mean she died (just because they haven't seen her since her exile). Anyway it doesn't matter, since it neither proves nor disproves that Kreia is Arren Kae.
I agree that Kavar's statement suggests that the Kreia that he recognizes fought in the Mandalorian Wars. Or else it would have been "During" the Mandalorian Wars. To me it's just wishful twisting of the meaning of words.

But I venture to suggest that the fact that Kavar thinks that the woman standing before him died in the Wars hints that she is Arren Kae. Well, it is known that Kae joined Revan and fought in the Wars. It's a fact recognized by the disciple and Kreia there exist no contradictions. Recognizing Kae, it's logical that Kavar said what he said. However, if that is Kreia standing before Kavar but not Kae, while Kreia is exiled because of her teachings and nothing whatsoever was known about her whereabouts, Kavar wouldn't have thought that she died in the Mandalorian Wars.
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Old 11-06-2006, 07:54 AM   #77
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It is clearly stated that Kae, was a Jedi KNIGHT. Kreia would have been a Jedi Master during the times of the mandalorian wars. If that is not conclusive, what is.

btw: why in Jediphile's post aren't the three masters wearing masters robes?

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Old 11-10-2006, 01:25 PM   #78
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It is clearly stated that Kae, was a Jedi KNIGHT. Kreia would have been a Jedi Master during the times of the mandalorian wars. If that is not conclusive, what is.
It's not conclusive since knight is the one term within the order which is ambigious - any member of the jedi order above (but excluding) the rank of padawan may be called a knight. Obi-Wan even says, "I was once a jedi knight the same as your father" to Luke, though Obi-Wan was clearly a master. Anakin could even have been considered one as well, given that he was on the jedi council.

And in any event:

Disciple: "Many of the Jedi Council trained Exar Kun, Ulic... Revan and Malak. How could they not see the danger they posed? And if they could not......perhaps there was some essential part of their teachings that was flawed. Something beyond the Jedi Code that they were missing. Revan had many Masters. Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars. Towards the end of his training, he sought out many to learn techniques.It is said that he returned to his first master at the end of his training, in order to learn how he might best leave the order."

Kae trained Revan long before the Mandalorian Wars, so clearly she was already a master. Disciple says so, and the plot demands that she was too. I find it interesting that he titles her as "Master Kae", while the other masters are just Zhar and Dorak without titles. It somehow suggests to me that Kae was more of a master than they were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbl
btw: why in Jediphile's post aren't the three masters wearing masters robes?

Likely a mod... very likely. -RH
Yes, probably a mod. You'll have to ask Shem, since he posted those images, not me. I merely replied to the post where he had put them, and so they appear in my reply.


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Old 11-10-2006, 02:14 PM   #79
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Would it be better to say that it would be revealed that Kreia is Kae...but it was cut because the developers thought it was too cliche?

It would sastiy both parties, the people who know Kreia really was meant to be Kae, and the people who know that Kreia is not really Kae because it is non-canon, due to it being cut content.
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Old 11-11-2006, 05:06 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Would it be better to say that it would be revealed that Kreia is Kae...but it was cut because the developers thought it was too cliche?

It would sastiy both parties, the people who know Kreia really was meant to be Kae, and the people who know that Kreia is not really Kae because it is non-canon, due to it being cut content.
I don't think it's a solution, but then I don't think we need one either. The matter is ambigious with clues pointing in one direction and others elsewhere. Mystery surrounds Kreia because of it, which suits the character just fine. I'm content to let the matter remain as unresolved as Kreia's goals are in the end - did she succeed or fail? We don't know. Was she Kae? We don't know...

As such it's fine. But I will play the devil's advocate and speak up when people state that Kreia cannot be Kae. I've admitted all along that we have no conclusive evidence that Kreia is the same person as Kae, but I'll also maintain that the she can be and reserve the argument to the contrary, since there is no conclusive evidence of that either. Speculation that she is not Kae, because it would otherwise have been said so, is just that - speculation. It is not evidence, no matter how much and how strongly people choose to express it. If they don't want Kreia to be Kae because they don't like the idea, however, then that's fine - at least they're being honest about it.


"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

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