Kreia handmaiden's mother?

[Emperor Devon]

Originally Posted by Shem

Why wasn’t that revealed in the game itself?

Wasn't relevant to the main plot, and Avellone hasn't ever been one to make things explicit in his games*. I've my own suspicion that he likes to keep fans guessing.

*Heck, it took me 3.5 years until after I'd played TSL to have what I'd (now) consider a solid grasp of the plot. And that's mostly thanks to Scorchy's LP. I just wish I'd read it before my interview with him.

Originally Posted by Shem

Kreia died, end of story. What would be the point of not revealing it after the game’s events

Because it was never intended to be (explicitly) revealed.

Originally Posted by Shem

because now it becomes a side issue which really weakens the plot behind it if it were true.

How so?

Originally Posted by Shem

Why hasn’t it been revealed after 3 ½ years since the game has been released? What are they waiting for?

See the reply above my previous one.

Originally Posted by Shem

Could you imagine if they were to leave hints about the Revan revelation, but never actually revealed in K1, but revealed in TSL?

That would be called leaving the game unfinished*. Kreia's identity, again, is irrelevant to TSL's main plot.

* Actually, if enough references were cleaned up KotOR could still have a solid plot without the PC being Revan. Albeit a terrible one lacking in any meaning and deeper themes (or at least as deep as KotOR's were able to get).

Originally Posted by Shem

The female Exile is now considered the canon way of playing the game.

As we don't know at what point LA decided a female Exile was canon that's not something we can postulate on. I'd be inclined to guess they decided after the game was released, as there are numerous references in the game's dialogue files that refer to the Exile as male. That or the devs simply didn't like a female Exile being canon and showed their disregard for the idea in their dialogues. Either way it debunks the idea Avellone was writing with canon in mind (something I can't ever see him doing, given how much he values player choice).

Originally Posted by Shem

The hints used to support the theory they’re the same person are easily debunked

Let's see you debunk them, then. For ease of reference, here they all are in a nutshell: http://fromearth.net/LetsPlay/KOTOR%...058/index.html

Originally Posted by Shem

We were told that no twists were going to be in TSL. There’s a hint left in one of the dialogue files about that

Good thing Kreia being Aren Kae isn't a 'Luke I'm your dad!'-level twist.

Originally Posted by Shem

Kreia makes it clear that she was cast out because of her teachings and beliefs. It was also stated that Kae was exiled for having a child. It was also stated that Kae was exiled for having a child.

Neither are exclusive reasons. It could very well have been both and probably was.

Originally Posted by Shem

In TSL, it was clear that Kreia is against love

Against the Exile being in love, sure, but what makes you think that? (And as so much of Kreia's character rests on her being a hypocrite I doubt she was.)

Originally Posted by Shem

If she did believe in love, she wouldn’t have changed her mind about it because that would prove in her mind that one of the Jedi teachings was correct

I think Kreia would've been smart enough to realize what that was.

Originally Posted by Shem

If there were any issues she agreed with the Jedi on; it would be teachings she already believed in before her exile.

Being? Kreia hates the Jedi. And the Sith, too, to be fair.

Originally Posted by Shem

Kreia was on a mission to prove that she was right and the Jedi were wrong.

Kudos goes to you for recognizing that. Everything she does in the game stems from self-actualization.

Originally Posted by Shem

Kreia serving under Revan during the Mandalorian Wars is something I can’t picture her doing.

Given that we hear it from Kreia, I'd take it with a grain of salt. Especially since she wouldn't have benefited from telling the Exile the truth.

Originally Posted by Shem

I believe it was stated that the Jedi thought Kreia “died” during the Mandalorian Wars; never stating she was killed.

I am relatively certain being killed was the leading cause of death in the Mandalorian Wars.

Originally Posted by Shem

Kreia hates Atris with a passion.

How did you figure that? I got the impression she's more bemused with her than anything else.

Originally Posted by Shem

Why would she want to leave her child with Atris of all people?

The hatred you think she has for Atris aside, because Kreia had no control over the Handmaiden at that point. In fact as we see in the game it served her purposes to have the Handmaiden serve Atris.

Originally Posted by Shem

I have a great respect for those who can accept the truth when it’s presented in front of them, even if they don’t like it.

I'm glad to hear it.

[Rev7]

Originally Posted by Emperor Devon

I am relatively certain being killed was the leading cause of death in the Mandalorian Wars.

[Shem]

I'm sorry Devon, but your argument tactics on that one made me laugh. You totally dismissed many of my biggest points of why I have an issue with this and you threw some speculation on your part. You should be a politician. It would probably be better if we had a discussion about this on Skype sometime.

Here's another issue I had, but forgot to put in. Kreia could have used the knowledge of being the Handmaiden's mother to her advantage to manipulate Brianna into doing things for her will; making Brianna Kreia's pawn. It would have revealed this plot point and it would have been in character with Kreia.

Here are a couple of opportunities that would have been a good time to drop the bomb:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1zfXp8mUaY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MqYUnRp2Vw

It's like I said, I'm not looking to change people's minds here. I'm just showing you my issues with this theory. I know I'm not going to change people's minds that have it set to this theory.

[Non-false Jedi]

Personally, I think too little in the game was made of the idea for the possibility to be true. Hardly conclusive I know, but still. She's dead so not much will come of it in the future and it would be a fairly major plot point.

[Emperor Devon]

Originally Posted by Shem

You totally dismissed many of my biggest points

And you completely ignored all of my points. As I took the time to respond to all of yours, that's not very fair of you to criticize me for doing. (It's not very helpful either, as you don't even mention which of your points I dismissed.)

Originally Posted by Shem

Kreia could have used the knowledge of being the Handmaiden's mother to her advantage to manipulate Brianna into doing things for her will; making Brianna Kreia's pawn.

How? "Do as I say, or I'll tell you I'm your mom? Oh, wait, whoops."

Originally Posted by Shem

Here are a couple of opportunities that would have been a good time to drop the bomb {videos}

And Kreia would have stood to gain what from revealing her identity there?

Originally Posted by Shem

I'm sorry Devon, but your argument tactics on that one made me laugh.

Pot? Kettle? Black?

[Manny C]

There is nothing in the game to either negate or confirm it, meaning that at this point it's entirely up to the discretion of the writer. If in the next game they decided to make it either one way or the other, there would be no consistency error.

Personally I dont think it was intended. If it were the case, I don't think Kreia would exhibit such indifference/dismissal of Brianna. If you think about it from Kreia's perspective, especially moments before her death, you'd think she might want to reveal the truth, as there isnt any point in concealing it anymore.

At the end of the day I don't think it matters much, it doesnt change anything.

[Corinthian]

No, Devon. More like "You'll do it, because I'm your mother and I know what's best for you, young lady." Then Brianna would be like "But moooooom" and Kreia would be like "No buts, now go do it." And then we'd have an episode where Kreia starts dating again and gets married to the Exile, but Brianna hates him because he's not her real Dad, and then she gets a crush on him...

[Zerimar Nyliram]

In all the times I've played this game I've never seen those conversations you posted in your videos, Shem. I take it from the comments that these take place if you are doing poorly at becoming closer with Brianna? I've never been unsuccessful so I wouldn't know.

Anyway, I have always really liked the idea that Kreia is Arren Kae, but as the story in the comic books progresses I find it far more likely that Krynda Draay will become Darth Traya, i.e Kreia.

[jinger]

Originally Posted by Jediphile

Right. None at all...

Boy! XD look what I've found. I made that piccy, ages ago, and I still think they look alike. But now I've made more than that I made a video on youtube with the most significant hints from the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDVCHKeM1Uk&fmt=18

[TKA-001]

The idea of Kreia being Handmaiden's mom is second-place on my list of things that I'm very glad never made it into the final game (the first being that Darth Nihilus is the Exile's evil half).

[jinger]

Originally Posted by TKA-001

the first being that Darth Nihilus is the Exile's evil half

Just out of curiosity, who said that? Cos it obviously defies what little we know about Nihilus. That he's a man, for one, and the Exile is a woman.

[Zerimar Nyliram]

And we know that Nihilus is also a ghost encased in his armor, which he attached his consciousness to once his hunger had consumed his body, according to The Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide. Not that that's much better than the evil half theory, though (which, by the way, I am certain originated with a poster here and was not something Obsidian planned to use in the story).

And we now know that Kreia is not Krynda Draay, since the latter has died in the comics. Clever how the writers messed with our minds on that one, though!

[jinger]

They're messing alright, they're making a mess. The Campaign Guide claims that his physical body is no more, but promo arts for TSL show a human body beneath his robe (an arm) while he's fighting Atris, and now Hasbro even says Nihilus wears dreadlocks under his hood^^"

I never bought the Krynda theory, but for that matter I'm pretty sure they won't let Kreia be Arren Kae either. They're making a habit out of denying theories such as this with their latest works, for the sake of plot twists. I hope they'll never get to that, and let Kreia's origins remain a mystery. Fortunately, while the Campaign Guide seemingly does speak of Kreia as if that was her name, it does not mention her early life, and it does not mention Arren Kae, thus leaving an opening.

[Giant Graffiti]

Originally Posted by Zerimar Nyliram

And we now know that Kreia is not Krynda Draay, since the latter has died in the comics. Clever how the writers messed with our minds on that one, though!

"I thought you had died in the Mandalorian Wars..."

Although I really don't submit to either theory. Kreia is Kreia.

[Zerimar Nyliram]

That's a very early promotional image you're referring to, Jinger. It can't be considered canonical mainly because that sparring match never took place, and the game doesn't even give us any evidence that Atris even knows of Nihilus' existence. Both of his hands and arms are completely covered up in the game, which is the final authoritative canonical depiction.

[luckyariot]

Also keep in mind that the Campain Guide refers to Atris as Darth Traya, which obviously never made it into the final game. Unlike the cuts, however, this seems to have been put there to be interntionally ambiguous. I rather liked the idea of Arren Kae being a seperate person, because there is no build up towards any type of Reveal, but then again, this is all subtext anyway... Who knows.

[luminara.unduli]

I know this thread is old but i think this is something none of you have mentioned. if you have then i didnt see so soz.

kreia in tsl is actually 50 years old according to wookieepedia. that means because handmaiden was 25 at the same time, that means kriea would have been 25 during birth. of course the use of darkside makes you look considerably older, and being headmistress at the sith acadamy means that she dealt out the punishments. most likely a dose of force lightening or choke or even scream to put the student back into their place. people were sent to detention room for the slightest things like not killing 10 enemy's fast enough so she would have overused it.

p.s. only most serious crimes kreia would have dealt out.
hope ihelped

[comkiller]

Sure they look alike, take away kreia's hood and wrinkles and they loo exactly the same. same half :¬: half look

I also notice a loop with Shem making the same argument over again with no new proof, actually no proof WHATSOEVER, and then most everyone else shows him proof that his theories aren't necessarily right.

also I think you were reading the http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/301/notwistshkv7.jpg to literally. IMO at least it was saying that there is no "Luke, I am you father" moment about why the exile is chosen instead of any other Jedi and that the exile isn't set aside for a reason that wasn't flat out directly stated in the first 10 minutes of the game, not anything to do with anyone's parentage.

and even if it DID refer to parentage, there wouldn't be a moment like that, it would seem cliche to harken back to that classic moment when so much else about the game refers back to the original trilogy and quotes it on numerous occasions. It would of ruined the story and those moments of nostalgia if Kreia actually came up and said "Brianna, I, am your mother" a few scenes is fine like finding the recording of the exiles trial when Kreia quotes obi-wan, but actually using that up front would make it feel more than a little silly

[SkyWoulf]

[QUOTE=Manny C;2187856]i think one big question we need to ask ourselves here is, who cares? Even if the information the game gives is ambiguous enough to justify that kreia is handmaiden's daughter, the fact is that it doesn't affect the story. ]


Kreia? Handmadien's daughter? i would like to know when she gave birth! lol

[DeathScepter]

personally I don't think that Kreia is Kae but canon can go either way.

[ANGLVD3TH]

I think a big issue in this argument is that many of the skeptics assume that all arguments for it are arguing it's proof, when supporters have been, IIRC, the only ones to specifically state that it is impossible to tell one way or the other. Personally, there is far too much of a "no coincidence" theme in all o Star Wars. A side point, the fact that a major controversy has arisen over interpretation of a mysterious character tells me the writers are doing it right. Some of the best parts of fiction are figuring out the hidden meanings and reading between the lines. Some of my favorite video game plots are when you see two different interpretations of the same story, especially if you figure out things by putting the two halves together. Today the convention has become that one must force feed the story because we need to market to the dumbest common denominator, this feels like a nice refresher. And as for those arguing "well female is cannon and you don't get the dialog as female soo....", cannon also has both gender exclusive party members along for the ride. And its irrelevant in any case, it doesn't disprove the theory, just makes it less likely. In the end, supporters have much circumstantial evidence, and the only evidence against is Kreia's word....

[90 SK]

Originally Posted by TKA-001

The idea of Kreia being Handmaiden's mom is second-place on my list of things that I'm very glad never made it into the final game (the first being that Darth Nihilus is the Exile's evil half).

Originally Posted by jinger

Just out of curiosity, who said that? Cos it obviously defies what little we know about Nihilus. That he's a man, for one, and the Exile is a woman.

This was described by Chris Avellone of KotOR II developer fame, he described the Exile as being a force wound resulting from the mandalorian wars and the destruction at Malachor, and he describes Nihilus as being a similar beast, with the same background of being a result of and deriving power from the Malachor cataclysm primarily. Nihilus is defeated when he attempts to drain the Exile but his power rebounds because it is like he is draining himself because the Exile is like a light side version of what Nihilus is (or a converse if the Exile PC is darkside).

The concept isn't really in the game aside from the part where Nihilus can't drain the exile and gets weakened, which I suppose happens regardless of alignment or gender, though neither of those play a difference with this idea anyway from a canonical point of view.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nihilus @Behind the scenes


My take on it is that Nihilus found ways of feeding on the force disruption at Malachor that allowed him to develop his technique of force drain that made him so powerful. The Exile's severed force connection resulted from the battle of Malachor IV, so the connection is clear there.

Nihilus is able to track force sensitives in a way that relates to jedi whose connections have not been severed in the same sense as the Exile. Seeing as Nihilus is a sith master capable of incredible power, we can assume that his knowledge would make him understand the nature of the Exile or not, in this case apparently not hence why we have more of a shadowy perspective of him in game, whereas Sion takes a more personal and intensive method of searching, going to Peragus and Korriban and even meeting the Exile head on outside the Trayus core.


I daresay personal conon is useful here, I like to believe everything I like about KotOR II and its unfolding story by the hands of both the developers original plans and also the restored areas of content that expand and fill out the game. From a strictly canonoical perspective, the characters of KotOR II and the details of their exploits are about as infamous as the actual conflict represented by the game in the Star Wars timeline. We do not hear much about them because they are connected to a shadow war waged on the Jedi specifically, while the republic was still experiencing fallout from the Revan/Malak Sith crisis which we also see ultimately absorbed by the Sith Emperor's War two hundred years later...

[Darth Avlectus]

All this talk about mothers is getting me "excited". I'm having a hard time keeping my "excitement" contained.

[Xinaith]

I've put a bit of time into researching this, After a while I came up with was basically this.
Kreia was a Jedi Master until she was exiled at a young age for an affair with a corellian official who she was protecting. After she was exiled she turned to the dark side having became obsessed with Sith Alchemy. After becoming accepted into the Sith Order she had the baby which was discovered by the current Dark Lord. (His name escapes me) He examined the child, handmaiden and sensed a strong force of light in her and due to kreia's extravagant power she was allowed to send the child away. She then became the Dark Lord's apprentice. Everything after that is unrecorded until the events of Kotor 2.

[Lord Foley]

Originally Posted by Atris

Kreia? That is not her name.

Originally Posted by Kreia, to Mical

You know who I am, but you will be unable to voice it, to remember it.

And she doesn't mean her identity as Darth Traya, because Mical explicitly states that he recognizes her in spite of the dark side:

Originally Posted by Mical

I know you - not even the markings of the dark side can hide it.

The council conveniently doesn't call her Kreia, though they recognize her and think she died in the Mandalorian wars.Brianne noticeably mentions that the body was never recovered. Kreia knows all about Arren Kae. Both are Revan's first master. Both are exiles. Kae + Traya= ??? profit.

Honestly, the alternate theory is that Mical and Atris recognize some other secret identity she had? That the body never being found and the name Kreia being spoken by no one that knew her from before are coincidences? That Revan had two first masters and two final masters? That the Handmaidens' saying betrayal runs in Brianne's blood and the whole Darth Traya thing just kind of coincide?

It doesn't matter that they don't specifically say she is Kae. They explicitly state that she is NOT Kreia.

[DeathScepter]

Originally Posted by Xinaith

I've put a bit of time into researching this, After a while I came up with was basically this.
Kreia was a Jedi Master until she was exiled at a young age for an affair with a corellian official who she was protecting. After she was exiled she turned to the dark side having became obsessed with Sith Alchemy. After becoming accepted into the Sith Order she had the baby which was discovered by the current Dark Lord. (His name escapes me) He examined the child, handmaiden and sensed a strong force of light in her and due to kreia's extravagant power she was allowed to send the child away. She then became the Dark Lord's apprentice. Everything after that is unrecorded until the events of Kotor 2.

sources please. another thing, The only Jedi Master that had any affair was Arren Kae and she slept with Yusani an Echani general. Arren Kae was a loyal follower of Revan during and after her time as a Jedi. Kreia is a virtual unknown that could or could not be Arren Kae. But it is known that Kreia is a prideful woman. So her claiming to be Revan's first master is not out of character. It is possible that Kreia was Revan's true first master.

[starwarzchick112]

Hi DeathScepter! It's me, RogueLeader, from the KFM forums. I go by my Youtube username here. And I do think that Kreia is Arren Kae.

[DeathScepter]

hi RogueLeader, I am siding on cautious that Kreia/Arren Kae debate and saying they are NOT the same person. Until it is canon that Kreia is Arren Kae, I am still thinking that they are two different people.

[Blix]

Yes I have had suspicions that Kreia is in fact Arren Kae, but you know Chris Avellone so...

[TKA-001]

Regarding Kae's disappearing body... Yeah, my "personal interpretation" is that it got pulverized into jelly by the Mass Shadow Generator. Like the millions of others killed by it.

[DeathScepter]

Or became one with the force, dropping her robes and recovered by either Revan and given to Yusani or recovered by Yusani

[TKA-001]

Given that we currently have no evidence for Kae knowing that technique (or whatever qualifies a Force user to disappear upon death), I'd say it's more likely she owned more than one set of robes.

[DeathScepter]

that is true TKA.

[Shem]

Here we are about 8 years later and from the looks of it, this storyline is pretty much dead, especially after the release of TOR.

[DeathScepter]

true. Just say, I prefer a Kotor 3 over TOR any day

[Sith Holocron]

Might it be that the only reason that CA didn't reveal it was that they wanted to put into the comic series. That and Avellone loves to keep the folks guessing?

[DeathScepter]

i have a fanon version of Arren Kae and Kreia and their respective relationship with Revan is interesting.

MY Fanon: Arren Kae is a Noble Echani Lady and Jedi Guardian. Appearance wise, She 6'1'' with ankle long platinum hair. She is a taller version of Brianna and prettier. Relationship with Revan: Quite close and quite trusted and found Revan when he is much older(think similar to Nomi and Kyle) and started training him and force bonded with him. Thus becoming Revan's unofficial 1st master.

Kreia became my Revan's first official master after the Jedi Council accepted Revan within their ranks.