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Old 03-06-2007, 10:53 PM   #41
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I couldn't bear to watch that. I got as far as to the moron going "did your grandparents look like this" at pictures of a chimpanzee.

We live in 2007, and people manage to spout this nonsense. While I'm not one of those who are seriously afraid of a "scientific dark-age"

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Yeah, no where in the Bible does it say 'Thou art going to Hell if thou dost not attend Church'
You're not supposed to pray in church, according to the Bible, but apart from that, I suppose you'll be fine, yes.

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Old 03-07-2007, 02:29 AM   #42
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Wow. All those billboards helped me to understand why only 17% of Americans are scientifically literate.
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Old 03-07-2007, 01:26 PM   #43
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If you think this one was fun, wait till you see this one.

(warning: Disturbing Image involving a cardboard cutout of Presedent Bu$h!)


Edit:

spoiler:


"Here is the presedent! Talk to him!"

"Say a Blessing for him!"

"Get some warfare on him!"

they look like "I want to touch the paper president!"



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Old 03-07-2007, 01:47 PM   #44
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Ewww! man... That's disturbing.

Dawkins' perennial statement that religious indoctrination in childhood is a form of child abuse was never more true.


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Old 03-07-2007, 01:58 PM   #45
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This is the part where I had to turn it off and take a break.

I can't find a clip from the abortion lecture, but it was pretty disturbing as well.
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Old 03-07-2007, 04:09 PM   #46
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And it's wrong in any case. It goes against their religion to pray to Bush.
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Old 03-07-2007, 05:24 PM   #47
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Catholics kneel before the cruxifix. Wouldn't that violate the idolatry statute as well?
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Old 03-07-2007, 07:10 PM   #48
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There's a world of diffirence between praying before the symbol of Jesus dieing on the cross and an efergy of the current serving President.
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Old 03-07-2007, 07:19 PM   #49
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And help me understand what that is.
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Old 03-07-2007, 07:27 PM   #50
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Some do believe the cross to be offensive, I think it was for a time after Jesus was crucified. But the cross is a symbol of the sacrifice he made for our sins, if you believe that sort of thing. So by praying to the cross we are praying to Jesus, the son of God, as I understand it. By praying to Bush as though he is a God that is meant to be offensive, in this case, to the Christian God.
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Old 03-07-2007, 07:45 PM   #51
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Sorry, I seem to recall there being a commandment against idolatry. It would stand to reason that it matters little whether it be the image of Christ or the image of Bush. In fact, I would think that the image of Christ would be the more offensive in the eyes of God.
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Old 06-03-2007, 09:54 PM   #52
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i saw the movie, and in my opinon it was very sad how stubborn and closed-minded these people were. at the end of the film, i believe the director called into a radio show. about halfway through the converstaion the radio host was pretty much shutting her down. Heck, she even had the guts to say that the world should abandon democrocy and replace it with radical christianity. not to mention most perceptions of hell is not from the bible, it's from Dante's Inferno. Pretty much what happened was that the church liked it so much that they decided to start preaching that description. And just for the record, I never watched a movie that made feel even prouder to be jewish. (except maybe for schindler's list.

Edit: PS: christianity didnt appear until 100yrs after christ died.


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.”
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Life is one big road with lots of signs. So when you riding through the ruts, don't complicate your mind. Flee from hate,mischeif, and jealousy.Don't bury your thoughts,put your vision to reality. WAKE UP AND LIVE!!
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Old 06-03-2007, 10:16 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Achilles
Sorry, I seem to recall there being a commandment against idolatry. It would stand to reason that it matters little whether it be the image of Christ or the image of Bush. In fact, I would think that the image of Christ would be the more offensive in the eyes of God.
To be clear, I don't think many people would pray to the statue itself. They are praying to whatever idea is behind the statue, which is why the idolatry rules don't apply to statues and icons used in this manner - the issue doesn't even come up. Praying to Bush is a bit far out, but praying for him is quite normal.


"Words are deeds." - Wittgenstein
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Old 06-09-2007, 06:12 PM   #54
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Hebraic scholars have debated this issue, and many have concluded that the idolatry that the hebrew god so disliked was not in fact merely the worship OF an object, but also the worship of another deity (or himself) THROUGH an object.

If one accepts this as biblical law, then any and all graven images, photographs, paintings or any other physical objects qualify as idols and should be banned from being the focus of worship, full stop.

But hey, lest we forget... religious texts are all confused nonsense anyway. Debating the meaning of religious texts is like debating the meaning of an Abba song.


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Old 07-16-2007, 01:53 PM   #55
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Brainwashing issue notwithstanding, 'Jesus Camp' has officially shut down after a storm of negative criticism. The camp leader says her indoctrination will continue, though. I particularly like these quotes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fischer
When [the movie] took the political twist, no one was more shocked than I was, because what we were doing wasn't political," Fischer said. "To me, it was good Christianity".
Fighting abortion and supporting (praying for) a sitting president is politics, Fischer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fischer
We have the idea that indoctrination is like the Chinese shoving bamboo up your fingernails or dropping a drop of water on your head until you say, 'Okay, Buddha is god.
I had no idea that the Buddhists consider Buddha a god.

Quote:
they look like "I want to touch the paper president!"
That portion where they all want to touch him reminds me so much of a certain politician in Germany in the thirties that it's frightening [/Shameless Godwin].

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Old 07-16-2007, 06:58 PM   #56
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This is gonna get me grilled, but here goes...

What's so bad about that brief thing I saw? granted, I have not seen the whole film. It's "Jesus Camp" and they brought out a cardboard cutout of President Bush, and although the kids knew it was fake, it was just a symbol. Even if you don't like him, he's still the PRESIDENT and deserves some respect. Would it have been Clinton in '94-'95, or would it have been Newt Gingrich?

It wasn't "worshipping" him. They, to me, were trying to teach the kids about faith and duty in one's country and in your leaders, and I don't see a problem with that. After all, religion is all about faith.

If you want corruption of the youth, go to Palestine or to Africa. Trust me, much worse there.


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Old 07-16-2007, 08:00 PM   #57
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You don't tell kids to pray for a political leader. The kids were not even teenagers, they were way too young to be introduced to politics - especially in the way they were in the documentary where they were indoctrinated into supporting Dubya. I don't care if they worshipped him, prayed for him, stripped for him, or lit incense to him. I'm not opposing it for religious reasons and calling it idolatry, I'm reacting to that they were being indoctrinated into supporting a specific leader.

Quote:
It wasn't "worshipping" him. They, to me, were trying to teach the kids about faith and duty in one's country and in your leaders, and I don't see a problem with that. After all, religion is all about faith.
One of the problems with US political debate is this expectation of some that one is supposed to be loyal to his leaders ('don't criticize Bush, you may not like him, but he's our President and we need to support him'). This is a big enough problem already if the fundies aren't going to make it worse.

As for faith, I don't know how you see it, but to me it is defined by the belief in something without evidence, a stance which is a very dangerous one to have in politics, and extremely easy for others to take advantage of. Should I have faith in that Iraq had WMDs, that global warming is fueled by humans, or that Korea is making nukes? Absolutely not.

Quote:
If you want corruption of the youth, go to Palestine or to Africa. Trust me, much worse there.
It's pointless of them to even try. North Korea beats them anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae on previous page
Nowhere in the Bible does it say 'Thou art going to Hell if thou dost not attend Church'.
It does, however, strike down hard on going to church and praying there.


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Old 07-16-2007, 10:21 PM   #58
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Eagle, I got no idea where you are coming from. There are prayers in every religion for the leader and advisors of a country. Jews have one. Christians have one. Muslims have one. So this one named President Bush directly. Big deal to me? No.

Faith is sort of that, but I had faith that the President was telling the truth about Iraq. Now, hey, most people think he lied or whatever. I think he really believed it and then the evidence was incorrect (which is most likely what happened). Oh, and I do believe they did have WMDs, they were just moved out of the country because if the warning that the U.S. was coming was any bigger, it would have a bright neon sign that said, "Hey Saddam, wer're coming for your butt!"

Off topic. Sorry. My guess is that you don't like faith in much, which leads me to believe Eagle that you are most likely an atheist, or at the least pragmatic. Not saying I have a problem with that, but those that doubt faith usually have that strain of belief.

The bigger problem is not what you listed as people should be loyal to their leaders, but the fact that it's worse than that. I don't say you have to support him, but he is the President of the United States and the symbol of the United States and deserves respect as such. Heck, I don't like Clinton and think he's a complete scumbag, but if I ever met him I wouldn't be just nasty.


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Old 07-17-2007, 09:00 AM   #59
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I think the main thrust of the debate is Jesus Camp takes things too far, at least as far as what we criticise extremist Muslims for acting like. For example praying to a effigy of Bush or praying for Bush, the religious experts I spoke to about this say it's wrong, the way they did it (having the cutout of Bush and praying before it) goes against not putting others before God. They believed, seriously, that the devil was trying to stop them from running the camp when they encountered technical difficulties (such as using a slideshow program). And the very warlike manner and attitude they have, they may not seriously believe in actually waging a Christian Jihad, but given their devotion and how seriously they take themselves and religion the question mark is there, and I think it wouldn't be a stretch to say that it is hypocritical to act the same way as the enemy (given the pro Bush Christian stance the msin enemy being Islam, even though we shouldn't look at it this way).
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Old 07-17-2007, 07:32 PM   #60
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Eagle, I got no idea where you are coming from. There are prayers in every religion for the leader and advisors of a country. Jews have one. Christians have one. Muslims have one. So this one named President Bush directly. Big deal to me? No.
It should be a big deal to you. You don't tell kids to support specific political leaders, and if you feel you have to do so, you don't use theology as reasoning. What kind of country would we have if the incentive for voting for candidate a was simply that 'God loves him more than candidate b'? Is this really OK to you? To me it's a disgusting way to recruit children into future neo-conservative party membership.

I have a funny feeling you're supporting this just because it's part of a religious ceremony. Would it be OK to you if I indoctrinated my 7-year old cousin into supporting Kerry, without invoking God or any other deity? Somehow I don't think so.

Nance, you summed it up pretty well. Heck, even they themselves not only realized they were acting like Palestinian intifada recruiters, they used it as a defence (paraphrased, their reasoning is that 'the enemy does it, so we're forced to follow suit to keep up with them'). Sickening.

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Old 07-17-2007, 07:43 PM   #61
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If they make such claims then it's a good thing that it's been abolished. Justifying a Christian Jihad because 'the enemy' does it, as you said, sickening.
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Old 07-17-2007, 08:04 PM   #62
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Okay, not supporting indoctrination at all. Never said I was. If they forced the kids, I wouldn't allow it. Thought it was really creepy though. Did understand it, but was kinda creepy (touch the President who's really a piece of cardboard that I may do things that are nsfw.)

Why do you have a problem with a religious prayer saying, "Bless this country, it's leaer and advisors, and lead the country in the right way?" Is that picking one group of people over another? Is that politics in religion? I don't think so. I thnk as long as they focus on ISSUES in religion that are big in politics, I don't have a problem with it. But the pulpit isn't a podium on the someone's campaign stop either, and anything that talks about it needs related to something else.

And if you indoctrinated your cousin in the ways of the John Kerry, go ahead, get to it. If you said, "G-d bless John Kerry in his righteous ways against Bush", yeah I'd be concerned. Never heard that in that video. Never heard them say anything like "if you don't love America you hate Bush and wish we were France" or some junk like that.

But if it was doing worse without cameras on, then I don't see a need for it to continue.


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Old 07-17-2007, 08:26 PM   #63
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If nothing else Jesus Camp provides Atheists wioth bucketloads of ammunition to use against religion.
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Old 07-17-2007, 08:38 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
If nothing else Jesus Camp provides Atheists wioth bucketloads of ammunition to use against religion.
Atheists do it as much as religious types. Not saying it's right for either side, but you do not usually see atheist republicans or religious democrats (although both do occur).


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Old 07-17-2007, 10:29 PM   #65
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They do. They are also incredibly double standered, condemning extremist views of religion yet happily employing such views for their own agenda.
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Old 07-18-2007, 01:52 AM   #66
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Heavyarms,

I'm not sure I take your last point. Would you mind reframing it for me?
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Old 07-18-2007, 12:07 PM   #67
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I'm not a Christian but I don't believe that this is what Jesus would have wanted for his followers.
I am a Christian, and I completely and utterly agree with this statement.

In Christianity at least, taking religion to an extreme and becoming warriors and getting militant is exactly the opposite of what your suppose to do.

Here's a bible verse to back that up

"And forgive thy people that have sinned against thee, and all their transgressions wherein they have transgressed against thee, and give them compassion before them who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them"

And there was another good one in the bible Jesus is preaching and talking about being so kind as when someone slaps you to turn the other cheek and even let them slap you again or something like that.

Well anyway, my point is, religion (or Christianity) isn't suppose to be taken to the extreme.

It's supposed to be quite the opposite.


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Old 07-18-2007, 04:13 PM   #68
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The unfortunate thing about christianity (or any other large, organizanized religion with a collection of holy scriptures) is that it's very easy to cherry-pick for verses that will support your views.

During the abolisionst movement in the U.S. one group of people were quoting the bible, chapter and verse, to support the argument that slavery wasn't immoral while another groups was quoting the bible, also chapter and verse, to show that it was.

To your point, there are multitudes of passages (some jesus and some not) that contradict what you stated above and support the viewpoints expressed by Fischer.

The best bet is put the holy book down, pick up some Kant, and make your own opinion rather than take someone else's at face value.
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Old 07-19-2007, 12:30 PM   #69
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I see what your saying, and I understand your thinking.

Bible verses can be easily mis-interpreted, I might read one, then read what it's suppose to mean, and find I was completely off by my understanding of it.

I'd assume it could be somewhat of a puzzle to interpret exactly what a bible verse means, or what anything means really.

People can mis-interpret things, it's been done before with other stuff.

And people can cherry-pick words and twist them, stretch them, or say it as it is while making it seem different then it is, or plainly lie about them, and then the truth itself, almost dissappears, because any way of finding it out, dissappears.

My point is, whatever is being cherry-picked from the Bible, it could be interpreting it wrong, stretching it, twisting it, lieing about it, thinking he interpreted it right, or telling the absolute pure un-tainted non-mis-interpreted truth about it.

If you don't believe in God, I'm not trying to change your point of view on that, but I'm just trying to make a point that possible Christian Extremists aren't neccassarily doing what the bible says, they could be doing exactly what it says, but that seems a bit unlikely.

And you can quote what something says out of context too (I don't have to explain this one)


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Old 07-19-2007, 01:40 PM   #70
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I think the biggest problem with that is who gets to decide what the right interpretation of a bible verse is? If everyone can interpret something in a different way, who is to say which one is the correct one?



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Old 07-19-2007, 05:20 PM   #71
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To expand upon ET Warrior's point: who's to say that the verses are being "mis-interpreted"? It almost comes down to the age old "glass half-empty/half-full" debate. Does the bible contain a message that is inherently good but can be "mis-interpreted" as bad or vice versa?

I say the parts that there are sufficient explicit contradictions to merit the whole dicussion moot, as the document itself lacks any credibility. All the best parts of the bible can and do exist independently of it, therefore it's completely un-necessary in every sense of the word.

Theists love to rally around the misconception that "atheistic morality" is subjective. The reality is that religious morality (and religion itself) the most eggregious offender when it comes to being subject, whereas "atheistic morality" is almost entirely objective. This isn't even the pot calling the kettle black.
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Old 09-27-2007, 11:58 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
I think the biggest problem with that is who gets to decide what the right interpretation of a bible verse is?
[every christian denomination and member raises their hand]

"WE DO!!"

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Old 09-28-2007, 04:48 AM   #73
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Clearly it is brainwashing to turn children into Bush's Christian foot soldiers so he can invade the Middle East for his god.
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Old 09-28-2007, 08:23 PM   #74
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Theists love to rally around the misconception that "atheistic morality" is subjective. The reality is that religious morality (and religion itself) the most egregious offender when it comes to being subject, whereas "atheistic morality" is almost entirely objective. This isn't even the pot calling the kettle black.
Exactly. Morality is not 'absolute' and 'unchanging' when it can be redefined at will.

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Old 09-29-2007, 10:40 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
brainwashing

Indoctrination that forces people to abandon their beliefs in favor of another set of beliefs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
atheism is the absence of belief in deities
All people are born atheists as they do not believe in deities - they have had no exposure to the idea of a God or Gods. From this we can show that most religions are infact brainwashing as most religions at first exposure tell a child to start believing in a deity and so tell them to stop believing in their belief and start believing in the religions.

RELIGION = BRAINWASHING


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Old 09-30-2007, 02:55 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Thor
Two facts:
Many atheists think religion is brainwashing.
Many religious people think atheists are immoral.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
brainwashing

Indoctrination that forces people to abandon their beliefs in favor of another set of beliefs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
atheism is the absence of belief in deities
From these sources we can deduce two things. Firstly that all people are born atheists as they do not believe in deities - they have had no exposure to the idea of a God or Gods. From this we can show that most religions are infact brainwashing as most religions at first exposure tell a child to start believing in a deity and so tell them to stop believing in their belief and start believing in the religions.

We can also deduce that atheists aren't immoral as the belief in atheism is simply the absence of a belief in deities and so has no impact on how immoral the individual is - this comes from other life experiences.

From this I can conclude that atheists aren't immoral beings.

Also I can conclude that religious people are stereotypical, brainwashing liars.

How in the world does an opinion on the morality of atheists have anything to do with theists allegedly brainwashing?

That's like saying:
Atheists think religious people like chocolate.
Religious people think atheists are immoral.
Atheists aren't immoral,
Therefore, religious people must like chocolate.


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Last edited by Jae Onasi; 10-10-2007 at 12:15 AM. Reason: added Thor's original comments in a quote for proper context
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Old 10-01-2007, 04:13 AM   #77
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I think it might be an attempt to make atheists out to not being entitled to pass comment.
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Old 10-01-2007, 12:13 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
How in the world does an opinion on the morality of atheists have anything to do with theists allegedly brainwashing?
You haven't followed the argument. From the definition of atheism everone is born atheist - they have no knowledge of God - as atheism is simply the absence of a belief in God then they are atheist. As brainwashing is imposing beliefs on a person that goes against their prior knowledge then religious people have to brainwash.

I copied this from another thread I was posting in coz it was virtually identical topic the immoral bit isn't relevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue Warrior
I think it might be an attempt to make atheists out to not being entitled to pass comment.
I have no idea where you got that idea from. The links on this thread are crazy and i'd never back any of them up.


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Last edited by Thor the Bassis; 10-01-2007 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 11-24-2007, 01:23 AM   #79
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(Sorry for the slight thread necromancy, but I can’t go to bed without letting this out)

Uh oh… I feel a little rant coming up…. Sorry guys…

I think the whole issue of misinterpretation can be summed up by looking at Dagobahn Eagle's reoccurring reference to the verse Matthew 6:5 "Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites who love to pray while standing in congregations so that people can see them."

While at first glance this verse does in fact appear to be saying "Christians can't pray in Church," one cannot criticize this until they have an understanding of the context it appears in. I am not quite giving my interpretation on the verse; I am simply going to provide insight as to what is being referred to. It is referencing the Jewish Pharisees who would stand on street corners while surrounded by crowds shouting praise to God simply to show off how religious they were. The verse in Matthew chapter 6 is not saying that people should never pray in public, but that people should not "be like the hypocrites [the Pharisees]." See, that connection is the key; the verse is telling Christians not to act as the Pharisees would and show off, but to pray because of their love, honor, and devotion toward God. If you were to read other parts of the Gospels this would make much more sense to you.

And this in and of itself is exactly the problem. Normally I don't delve into topics in The Senate because I don't have the time to read the long debates but today, given the holiday and my insomnia, I actually went through and read this entire topic and I am somewhat disgusted by people's gross misinterpretations of the Bible and Christianity in general. I don't want to go on a religious tirade here, because honestly I dislike it when anyone (Christian or Atheist, Republican or Democrat) decides to shove their beliefs down someone else’s throat, but I do want to attempt to clear a few points up not for the purpose of disproving people's claims, but to make sure than people can have a Christian's point of view.

Looking back there are several discussions on the original clip's portrayal of young Christians praying "to" Bush and many people here started discussing how disgusted they are by Christianity brainwashing children into submitting to George Bush and his ideology. I do not believe this is the case, however. In my opinion I believe they are practicing Jesus' teaching summarized in his words "Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s" which, upon further examination of the context, say that people should be obedient to the government they are under, therefore I do believe that no matter who the president was at the time, they would have brought up the image of that leader despite his religious beliefs, they would have thus prayed that the leader would not be swayed into temptation and lead the country into evil, or even something as simple and praying that God would protect the health and safety of the president. I do not see them as "worshipping Bush" but rather as praying for and giving their respects to the leader of their nation, as their Bible told them they should.

Additionally, the topic was raised of why people would believe that an Atheist who lives a good and moral life would not go to heaven. I just wanted to clear something up and attempt to provide a little insight into the Christian ideology. Christianity essentially believes that mankind is born into sin and thus, by being imperfect beings, we are separated from God. However, when God sent his son to Earth (Jesus) to die, Jesus sacrificed his own perfect life in place of the punishment awaiting us for our imperfection. You see, Christianity says that because God is so perfect, someone who is sinful, or imperfect, cannot go to Heaven, so thus one must be cleansed of their imperfections in order to be with God. And the only way for a human to cleanse themselves of their sin is to accept the gift given to them by God’s grace of sending his perfect son to die for us. By accepting this, Christianity says that a human is cleansed of their sin and made perfect in God’s eyes, and while they can still commit sin, as long as they repent for their imperfection and do their best to live a life according to the teachings of Jesus, then they can go to Heaven (the entrance to Heaven then, you see, is not determined by how “good” someone is but rather of their acceptance of a free gift given to them by God. However, the gift also includes their submittance to living a Christian lifestyle (which, I should add, is not often seen in the lifestyles of the radical, conservative Christians who are seen in the Media). So do you see where the Christian belief is coming from? They say that Atheists can’t go to Heaven because Atheists (from a Christian’s perspective) essentially say “hey, you’re offering me this great gift but I don’t care for it and I don’t even believe you exist, so no thanks.” Therefore, even if they live a moral life and are “good people,” they don’t accept what is freely being given to them (in essence, they decide to turn down the offer for Heaven on their own accord), and thus they do not “pass” the entrance to Heaven due to their natural-born sin. But ultimately I think Jae summed it up wonderfully when she said “if you're an atheist and decline to believe in God, why do you want to be with Him in heaven and have a relationship with Him there but not here?”
So I’m sorry for the long religious rant, and I don’t want to appear to radical or domineering, but it really annoys me when I see people stereotype (or attempt to stereotype) any religious group or any group of people in general… especially when many of their opinions come from a (no offense to anyone) relatively uninformed (or misinformed) perspective. On the other hand, I suppose I should recognize the fact that all of what I’ve said is just a “perspective” and that I am only one person giving their point of view, but ultimately I just want to ensure that my perspective (and what I’ve found to be the perspective of the majority of Christians that I’ve talked to… and trust me that’s a lot, my parents were missionaries and I’ve lived in some very, very Christian and very, very non-Christian environments) is heard and understood by the people here, whether you choose to agree or not.

Also, please don’t try to rebuke or argue against me until you’ve really thought about what I’ve had to say. Additionally, I’d like to apologize if my writing is slightly incoherent… it’s late and I’m not feeling well and I’m fairly tired



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Old 11-27-2007, 08:19 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWally citing Jae
“if you're an atheist and decline to believe in God, why do you want to be with Him in heaven and have a relationship with Him there but not here?”
Well basically, it's not so much because the Atheist wants to be with god, but more questioning the "fact" that someone who did nothing but good in his entire life would go to hell just because he's not believing, while someone who did really bad things for all of his life could go to heaven just because he starts believing on his 70th birthday and "truly regrets" what he has done. See it as as try to point out some unjust illogicality, as it appears to some Atheist, and not because Atheists want to go to heaven.



Last edited by Ray Jones; 11-27-2007 at 04:06 PM.
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