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Old 11-27-2007, 04:01 PM   #81
MrWally
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First off, I'll just remind you that you should probably quote Jae instead of me, just to give her credit.

Secondly, what the point is though is that being "good" or "bad" isn't what allows someone to enter heaven, it's their acceptance of God's gift. That is how Christianity is different from every other major religion out there (in fact, I personally have never heard of a religion like Christianity) where the God or supreme power saves the people instead of the people saving themselves. Other religions require people to follow strict laws or accomplish certain tasks to ensure a pleasant afterlife, but in Christianity people are saved by accepting a gift from God in which they are forgiven for what they have done wrong.



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Old 11-27-2007, 05:08 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWally
First off, I'll just remind you that you should probably quote Jae instead of me, just to give her credit.
Check. ;

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Secondly, what the point is though is that being "good" or "bad" isn't what allows someone to enter heaven, it's their acceptance of God's gift.
But what's the deal with sin then?


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Old 11-27-2007, 10:24 PM   #83
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The idea is that man is separated from God by sin, the sin we are naturally born with as human beings. Since God is a perfect we are unable to be with him as long as we live in sin, but God's gift to humanity was his son, Jesus, who lived a perfect life, and since he was born from a virgin clearly not like other humans who were naturally born into sin. When Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross he essentially took the entire weight of mankind's sin on his own shoulders, and thus gave us the greatest gift we could ever receive (the opportunity of eternal life). Therefore, if we as humans admit that we have sin and fallen short of God's glory and accept the gift from God through his son, then we are cleansed of sin and capable of being in Heaven with God.

Again, I really don't want to sound preechy or as if I'm trying to shove religion down anyone's throat, I just want to ensure that everyone understands the true meaning and ideology of Christianity before they criticize or reject it.



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Old 11-28-2007, 04:09 PM   #84
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I would really be glad if people would stop calling christians extremests, I mean so me and my freinds jumped a Satan worshipping kid , but that doesn't mean we're extremests
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Old 11-28-2007, 05:48 PM   #85
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Okay, I think I understand what you mean, MrWally, and it actually made some sense to me. Thanks for sharing your views on Christianity with me.

(And, while it cannot be wrong, with the rest of the internet crowd, too. )


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Old 12-01-2007, 12:53 AM   #86
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If we're expected to acknowledge this gift, then I suppose we should be notified that it exists. Ignorance does not equal denial.

Suppose this gift analogy is thought of another way: Someone places a gift on your doorstep which contains a message on how to truly find God. This gift is invisible, intangible, doesn't smell, can't be heard or tasted. Its existence does not follow from any logic known to us, and what people have told us about the gift is either contradictory, confused or just plain nonsensical. After placing this gift, our generous benefactor finds he has informed us about God, and therefore we should be judged accordingly...

I agree, we should be responsible for our actions. But I don't think we should be held to account for acts of God.

Why would I want to be with God? Perhaps a better question is: who would not, if they only knew?

There are many who don't know. Can it be said of them that they've made a choice when they do not see any other option?

But how does God react to this? Does it mean he actually intended that these select, ignorant people to be eternally separated from him without a reasonable ability to avoid it? If so, then it would seem that Jesus didn't die for all people, but only some people. Why?

Now I'm sure you have a handy answer that consists of "Well, the gift is given and people are aware of it and its implications." --But I can tell you that I am aware of neither, although I have certainly had a fairly positive exposure to Christianity, insofar as it is expressed in the actions of some people who call themselves Christian.

But shouldn't God know exactly what type of evidence and reasoning is required by each person in order to find an argument reasonably convincing? Of course he should. --But why, when I look at all the arguments I have ever come across, is nothing convincing?

Either God doesn't want to convince me, is planning on convincing me later, or there must be some point at which God decides that he's tried hard enough to convince someone and they had better figure it out with the proof they have. But what does that proof consist of? I know what proof means; it's a way of saying that that one statement logically follows from another statement, or that evidence can be obtained to show that a proposition is true or false. Some ways we use proof:

I can demonstrate how to obtain 3 by defining the numbers 3, 2, and one, adding 2 and 1, and then also show that 2 and 1 can be gotten from 3 by subtraction;

I can show that, if all men are mortal and Socrates is a man, then Socrates must be mortal;

If someone wonders whether it is raining outside I can open the window and let them look;

and other similar cases. --But have I actually been given anything resembling the meaning of proof? No, so it can't be said that God has given me proof of any sort (giving me proof that he knows I wouldn't recognize is not to give proof at all). I am curious what he expects of us, then - to differentiate between essentially identical statements, i.e., between Zeus and God? God and the absence of God? I have equivalent proof of each of these. But that would seem to make salvation more a matter of luck or God's arbitrary choice than anything else. If that's the case, then why are we expected to know what to believe, that is, to take advantage of the gift? Is someone who doesn't believe any old random thing anyone might say to them completely barred from being with God because of their want of proof, any proof?

When can it be said that "I damned myself" instead of "God damned me"? Only when we are given a plausible choice.

Where is that choice?


"Words are deeds." - Wittgenstein

Last edited by Samuel Dravis; 12-03-2007 at 12:24 PM. Reason: clarification of point
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Old 12-04-2007, 05:11 PM   #87
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well do you really want to risk going to hell I know I don't. and besides If God doesn't exist then how else could we have gotten here?
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Old 12-04-2007, 06:27 PM   #88
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By train?


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Old 12-04-2007, 07:25 PM   #89
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By train?
smart mouth
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Old 12-05-2007, 02:47 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeDavis93
well do you really want to risk going to hell I know I don't. and besides If God doesn't exist then how else could we have gotten here?
But you are risking going to hell. There are thousands of different religious beliefs that you don't adhere to that all condemn you to hell for not believing them. You're hedging your bets on your extremely small odds of choosing the right one with no more to go on than the choice (I'm guessing your parents) made for you.

As far as us being here, spend some time studying evolutionary biology, and then we can discuss that.



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Old 12-06-2007, 12:44 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by LukeDavis93
and besides If God doesn't exist then how else could we have gotten here?
So if god created us, then who created god?

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Old 12-13-2007, 06:21 PM   #92
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A Daddy God?

Seriously, I think there is such an idea in the ancient kabalistic views... but off my mind I forgot how it goes.
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Old 12-13-2007, 06:30 PM   #93
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pshaw...everyone knows that something can come from nothing so long as religion is involved. Same thing goes for anything "infinite".
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Old 12-21-2007, 09:52 AM   #94
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@Achiles: Well, I've heard atheists claim that matter is infinite, and so is the foundation for the universe - why can't God be infinite? We don't really know anything about what God "is"?

Anyways.... Unfortunately the link is no longer there, so I can't watch the video. From what it sounds like, though, this is not what Jesus intended.

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Originally Posted by jonhill987
I am far more scared of the Christan extremists in America than I am of Muslim extremists in the middle east.
Yes, Muslim extremists that strap bombs to themselves and blow hundreds of civilians up are nothing compared to Christians. I mean, look at all the terrible acts Christians are comitting right now....

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Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
If we're expected to acknowledge this gift, then I suppose we should be notified that it exists. Ignorance does not equal denial.
Well, that's up to God. If God is merciful, then he will understand. I don't know - I'm not exactly in on what God has planned.

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Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
Suppose this gift analogy is thought of another way: Someone places a gift on your doorstep which contains a message on how to truly find God. This gift is invisible, intangible, doesn't smell, can't be heard or tasted.
I'm not quite sure how the analogy equates here.... certainly a book containing God's word to us is a little more than invisible or intangible.

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Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
Its existence does not follow from any logic known to us, and what people have told us about the gift is either contradictory, confused or just plain nonsensical.
Here is where I contradict - why does the idea of a loving God who created us not follow any logic known to us?

As for the second part, well, that's a sad thing when it happens. That doesn't mean the message is flawed, just the messenger.

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Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
After placing this gift, our generous benefactor finds he has informed us about God, and therefore we should be judged accordingly...
Again... I really don't know. I wouldn't consider this satisfactory. I think that, in the Bible, it's pretty clear that spreading the Gospel is not some drive-by hit and run thing.

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Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
I agree, we should be responsible for our actions. But I don't think we should be held to account for acts of God.
Acts of God?

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Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
Why would I want to be with God? Perhaps a better question is: who would not, if they only knew?
Apparently a lot of people don't. They know, but they still live in sin.

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Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
There are many who don't know. Can it be said of them that they've made a choice when they do not see any other option?
I'm repeating myself - I don't know how God judges these people. I believe that He is a merciful and loving God.

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Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
But how does God react to this? Does it mean he actually intended that these select, ignorant people to be eternally separated from him without a reasonable ability to avoid it? If so, then it would seem that Jesus didn't die for all people, but only some people. Why?
Well, He didn't, I believe. That's why I always wonder about those people - you're not the only one to think about said ignorant people.

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Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
Now I'm sure you have a handy answer that consists of "Well, the gift is given and people are aware of it and its implications."
Some do, some don't, I'd say.

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Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
--But I can tell you that I am aware of neither, although I have certainly had a fairly positive exposure to Christianity, insofar as it is expressed in the actions of some people who call themselves Christian.
Well, I know a lot of people say this, but you have to be looking for God. God is very eager to have a relationship with you, but it won't happen if you aren't seeking him.

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Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
But shouldn't God know exactly what type of evidence and reasoning is required by each person in order to find an argument reasonably convincing? Of course he should. --But why, when I look at all the arguments I have ever come across, is nothing convincing?
Why is it not convincing? I think that God made all of us with the capacity to understand the evidence and choose to follow God. We may have to be told about it first, but I think that most go through a point where they have that informed decision.

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Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
Either God doesn't want to convince me, is planning on convincing me later, or there must be some point at which God decides that he's tried hard enough to convince someone and they had better figure it out with the proof they have.
But God isn't someone to say "I've tried hard enough."

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Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
But what does that proof consist of? I know what proof means; it's a way of saying that that one statement logically follows from another statement, or that evidence can be obtained to show that a proposition is true or false. Some ways we use proof:

~snip~

--But have I actually been given anything resembling the meaning of proof? No, so it can't be said that God has given me proof of any sort (giving me proof that he knows I wouldn't recognize is not to give proof at all). I am curious what he expects of us, then - to differentiate between essentially identical statements, i.e., between Zeus and God?
Now we're getting a bit deep, and I don't want to get long-winded, there is much more evidence for the Christian God than there is Zeus. Zeus was almost a god of the times anyways, he was a god borrowed by the Romans. Does anyone even believe in Zeus anymore?

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Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
God and the absence of God? I have equivalent proof of each of these.
Why do you say they are equivalent? Just wondering.

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Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
But that would seem to make salvation more a matter of luck or God's arbitrary choice than anything else. If that's the case, then why are we expected to know what to believe, that is, to take advantage of the gift? Is someone who doesn't believe any old random thing anyone might say to them completely barred from being with God because of their want of proof, any proof?
God isn't this kind of person - I don't believe in predestination or anything like that. Also, I think that finding God is personal journey, not some kind of thing where you sit around and say "Ok God - show yourself!" And when He doesn't appear, say "Well, you had your chance to show me...." and walk away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
When can it be said that "I damned myself" instead of "God damned me"? Only when we are given a plausible choice.

Where is that choice?
I think everyone has this choice, if they have a desire to live a different life and find God. If they don't, well.... what can you do about it? If they don't want to find a God, or live a different life, then "it's their life." And for those who want to find God, but *can't*.... Hmmm. God is merciful, so, I hope that they will be shown mercy. I think they will.
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Old 12-21-2007, 11:58 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
@Achiles: Well, I've heard atheists claim that matter is infinite, and so is the foundation for the universe
When it comes to matters of science, I tend to be more interested in the statements made by scientists rather than those made by atheists. FWIW, I've never heard anyone claim that matter is infinite (I have heard some arguments for energy being infinite though).

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Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
why can't God be infinite?
Don't look at me. I don't have a problem with the claim. I only get upset when people want to have it so that something can apply for one argument but then automatically discount those conditions for another (and then not even have the decency to tell us why).

If god gets to be infinite, then so do the conditions that led up the big bang. If the conditions leading up the big bang have to be laid out in explicit detail in order for us to accept that it actually happened (something we have evidence for), then the conditions leading up to the birth of god must be laid out with comparable attention to detail (ignoring that we have no way to measure god, and therefore no evidence for his/her/its existence).

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Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
We don't really know anything about what God "is"?
Nope, we sure don't. Unfortunately, that does not stop many people from making unsupportable claims about who he is, what he wants from us, his roll in our lives, his feelings toward us as a species, his feelings toward us as individuals, etc, etc, etc.
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Old 12-22-2007, 04:50 PM   #96
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Well basically, it's not so much because the Atheist wants to be with god, but more questioning the "fact" that someone who did nothing but good in his entire life would go to hell just because he's not believing,
I can't think of anyone who has never sinned before. Except Jesus.

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while someone who did really bad things for all of his life could go to heaven just because he starts believing on his 70th birthday and "truly regrets" what he has done. See it as as try to point out some unjust illogicality, as it appears to some Atheist, and not because Atheists want to go to heaven.
You're generalizing it into "good things" and "bad things", and you can't look at it that way. First of all, there aren't people who do "good things all their life". In fact, you could really say that there are only people who do "bad things all their life". Its the basis of Christianity. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, the Book says.

Not even Christians think of themselves as any "better" than an unbeliever. (well, they shouldn't....) Its just that we believe that we are saved, and the other person isn't. (which then means we should try and correct that ) Jesus specifically taught that Christians were supposed to serve people, and humble themselves. I know that this gets forgotten sometimes, even by me.

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Originally Posted by Achilles
When it comes to matters of science, I tend to be more interested in the statements made by scientists rather than those made by atheists. FWIW, I've never heard anyone claim that matter is infinite (I have heard some arguments for energy being infinite though).
I've heard people make the claim about matter before; although, if you want to talk about energy, that's been said on these very forums before. And kudos for sticking with science rather than just other atheist's opinions (not that I think you would do that, knowing you, but I know some who do).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Don't look at me. I don't have a problem with the claim. I only get upset when people want to have it so that something can apply for one argument but then automatically discount those conditions for another (and then not even have the decency to tell us why).
I know what you mean. I was just finding out where you were coming from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
If god gets to be infinite, then so do the conditions that led up the big bang. If the conditions leading up the big bang have to be laid out in explicit detail in order for us to accept that it actually happened (something we have evidence for), then the conditions leading up to the birth of god must be laid out with comparable attention to detail (ignoring that we have no way to measure god, and therefore no evidence for his/her/its existence).
True.

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Originally Posted by Achilles
Nope, we sure don't. Unfortunately, that does not stop many people from making unsupportable claims about who he is, what he wants from us, his roll in our lives, his feelings toward us as a species, his feelings toward us as individuals, etc, etc, etc.
Yes, unfortunately, it doesn't... Merely making claims based on feelings or opinions don't really hold weight, no matter how wrong/right they are. I can't pretend that I'm not guilty of doing that.

I do have my beliefs on what God wants from us, and his role in our lives is, however - but I would hope that they come directly from the Bible than just my opinion. If you don't believe in the Bible, well, that's another discussion, of course - but I myself would hope that I would stick to what God's Word says most of all. After all, it is supposed to be the basis of my religion, so trying to infer things that aren't in the text.... well, it doesn't exactly help Christianity.
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Old 12-22-2007, 05:00 PM   #97
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Considering the disagreements that we have had in the past, I am truly pleased to see that there is much that we can agree on. Thanks for your post! Take care
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Old 12-22-2007, 07:21 PM   #98
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Lol, you too.
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Old 01-22-2008, 07:12 PM   #99
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As far as us being here, spend some time studying evolutionary biology, and then we can discuss that.
evoulution is bullcrap! besides even if we did get here via evolution then what created the first organism huh? have an answer to that? no? okay, I didn't think so
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Old 01-22-2008, 11:12 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by LukeDavis93
evoulution is bullcrap! besides even if we did get here via evolution then what created the first organism huh? have an answer to that? no? okay, I didn't think so
Not to sound like a dick, but do you have an answer to where god came from?


Anyways, watching the movie really was an odd experience, while I'm happy they found something they can accept is fine, it's just they should learn as much as they can about the other side of the arguement so they can make an educated guess instead of their bible is always right. What's unfortunately is that these people who are full of their own religion refuse to see any other side. That being said some of the nicest people I've met were Evangelical but not so extreme.


When god gives you lemons you need to FIND A NEW GOD!
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Old 01-23-2008, 02:06 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeDavis93
evoulution is bullcrap! besides even if we did get here via evolution then what created the first organism huh? have an answer to that? no? okay, I didn't think so
Completely different question. Life origins vs current life forms. Creationism is burdened with the problem of a "prime mover" while abiogenesis is not. Guess which one is statistically more improbable than the other.
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Old 01-23-2008, 11:35 PM   #102
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Completely different question. Life origins vs current life forms. Creationism is burdened with the problem of a "prime mover" while abiogenesis is not. Guess which one is statistically more improbable than the other.
Let us not forget that in actuality, creationism, evolution, and other religion is just theory... correct me if I'm wrong.


When god gives you lemons you need to FIND A NEW GOD!
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Old 01-23-2008, 11:46 PM   #103
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That's like saying, "F = GMm/Rē (the general gravity equation) is just a theory and therefore it can be questioned." Yeah, it's just a theory. But a theory is a model of reality, and reality doesn't go away if you call a model of it "just a theory." The fact that the equation above is the result of "just a theory" doesn't diminish in the least its usefulness. To deny that it is useful on such grounds is, to be honest, incomprehensible...

On the other hand, to say that creationism and other such doctrines are theory (models of reality) is a mistake, because they do not model reality from what is known; they merely either interpret what is known in light of certain extremely vague words from the Bible or simply don't have anything to do with reality in the first place.


"Words are deeds." - Wittgenstein
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Old 01-24-2008, 12:09 AM   #104
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Quote:
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Let us not forget that in actuality, creationism, evolution, and other religion is just theory... correct me if I'm wrong.
Depends on what usage of "theory" we're talking about. It seems quite common to see capital "T" Theory (scientific usage) used interchangeably with lower case "t" theory (lay usage = "an unproved assumption"). This is what you appear to be doing in the post above.

Science doesn't have any lower case "t" theories. It doesn't make uneducated guesses. The closest thing it has are hypothesis, and even these are based on facts and must be survive a rigorous process of testing before they are generally accepted.

Religion's "explanations" (and all of the trappings that come with it, i.e. "creationism") are just uneducated guesses. So to say that the Theory of Evolution is equivalent to the unproved assumptions of creationism or anything else related to religion is simply incorrect.

I hope that helps to clear up any confusion that may exist.

Thanks for reading.
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Old 01-24-2008, 12:31 AM   #105
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I think that religion is what you believe in. I think that people take religion way to far and kill people who aren't part of your religion. I agree with the whole 18+ idea


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Old 01-24-2008, 11:18 PM   #106
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I feel smarter after reading this


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Old 01-25-2008, 11:59 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeDavis93
evoulution is bullcrap! besides even if we did get here via evolution then what created the first organism huh? have an answer to that? no? okay, I didn't think so

So, let me break this down.

Evolution, or any scientific theory that discusses the emergence of life from non-life, pretty much states that over the course of hundreds of millions of years certain elements in the perfect conditions will come together and create amino acids, those amino acids will come together to form peptides, and so on and so forth...(this is the simplest explanation I can give, of course, it is much more complicated than that).

Creationists believe that an invisible man in the sky decided for no apparent reason he was going to snap his fingers and create the earth and all life on it. The earth is only 6,000 years old and men lived on the earth with dinosaurs like on the f'n Flinstones?

Which seems more plausible?


"Who is splendid among men, who is glorious among heroes?"
--excerpt from Gilgamesh
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Old 01-25-2008, 12:49 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylilin
Creationists believe that an invisible man in the sky decided for no apparent reason he was going to snap his fingers and create the earth and all life on it. The earth is only 6,000 years old and men lived on the earth with dinosaurs like on the f'n Flinstones?

Which seems more plausible?
And even with the creationist explanation, they never answer the biggest question... who created god?
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Old 01-25-2008, 12:55 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylilin
(this is the simplest explanation I can give, of course, it is much more complicated than that).
Perhaps this will help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-8252
And even with the creationist explanation, they never answer the biggest question... who created god?
Chuck Norris.

Last edited by Achilles; 01-25-2008 at 05:37 PM. Reason: removed repetitive argument made in another post
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Old 01-25-2008, 11:30 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by LukeDavis93
evoulution is bullcrap! besides even if we did get here via evolution then what created the first organism huh? have an answer to that? no? okay, I didn't think so
Evolution deals very little in regards to the origin of life. Instead, it details how the first organisms - prokaryotes - eventually, through the natural selection of advantageous mutations, evolved into the creatures it has now. Whether or not God created the first organism is largely irrelevant to the study of evolution.

(Bit of a tangent, but when you hear people say the phrase, "man was created in the image of God", does anyone else take it as an insult to the man upstairs?)



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Old 02-13-2008, 07:50 PM   #111
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And even with the creationist explanation, they never answer the biggest question... who created god?
If God created time and space and therefore the universe, God himself is not bound to time and space at all.

The law that says everything has a beginning and an end only exists because of time and space, and it only applies to things bound by time and space, but God created time and space, which means he is not bound to it in anyway, which completely throws any question of what created God, or whether God had a beginning out the window.

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Originally Posted by Kylilin
So, let me break this down.

Creationists believe that an invisible man in the sky decided for no apparent reason he was going to snap his fingers and create the earth and all life on it. The earth is only 6,000 years old and men lived on the earth with dinosaurs like on the f'n Flinstones?
For no apparent reason? The Bible states that God created us so he could have a personal relationship with us. And he didn't want a bunch of humans that acted more like robots who would automatically love him because he forced them too (he gave us free will, the choice to love and believe in him or not, and to have control over our own actions, meaning God can't force us to do certain things or think certain thoughts), but rather seeks to have a true personal relationship with us.

And to MrWally, sorry if I was one of the people's posts you read before (I don't know when I made that, maybe a year ago) that came across as trying to shove my beliefs down another's throat, and sorry to anyone else who may have interacted with me on those posts, I hope I didn't come across as doing that.


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Last edited by MeleeMaster; 02-13-2008 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 02-13-2008, 11:40 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by MeleeMaster
If God created time and space and therefore the universe, God himself is not bound to time and space at all.

The law that says everything has a beginning and an end only exists because of time and space, and it only applies to things bound by time and space, but God created time and space, which means he is not bound to it in anyway, which completely throws any question of what created God, or whether God had a beginning out the window.
I'm sorry but that sounds like a total cop out. For all intents and purposes, your answer is basically like saying "it's magic."
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Old 02-14-2008, 02:50 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeleeMaster

For no apparent reason? The Bible states that God created us so he could have a personal relationship with us. And he didn't want a bunch of humans that acted more like robots who would automatically love him because he forced them too (he gave us free will, the choice to love and believe in him or not, and to have control over our own actions, meaning God can't force us to do certain things or think certain thoughts), but rather seeks to have a true personal relationship with us.
I don't mean to sound flippant, so please don't take this the wrong way. But where in the Bible does it say that man was created by God in need of some friends?


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--excerpt from Gilgamesh
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Old 02-15-2008, 07:08 AM   #114
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Don't worry, in my post I was probably acting flippant.

A better way to put it is God wasn't lonely, for he was all-powerful, meaning he didn't physically or emotionally need humans, but rather, he created us for his pleasure, and he still loves us more than one could possibly imagine, but he does not need us.

God created us for the pleasure of us being able to worship him, and for the pleasure of being able to love us and have a relationship with us, and he created us with free will, so that we might have the choice that God may have a true relationship with us.

Forgive me for not knowing the bible very well offhand, I am saying this over my overall knowledge I have accumulated about christianity over the years.

.................................................. .................................................. ....

The Lord has appeared of old to me, saying: "Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you. Jer 31.3

God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love Eph 1.4

(Reasoning behind verses)

God knew and loved you even before He created the world.
God loved you then. God loves you now.

(God said...) I don't want your sacrifices--I want your love; I don't want your offerings--I want you to know me. Hos 6.6, LB

Some folks think "worshipping God" simply means church and hymns and fancy prayers. Not so!

Jesus gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people Titus 2.14a

(God said...) Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory Isa 43.7a, KJV

(Jesus said...) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven. Mt 5.16

Reason #6: You were created to be one of God's special people. You bear God's name for God's glory!!!

"Christ" is a name of God.
As a Christian you bear God's name -- CHRIST-ian.
Your bear Christ's name so that people who know you will think about Christ.
Since you bear Christ's name, it is God's purpose that your lifestyle will reflect His glory unto mankind.
.................................................. .................................................. ....

MrWally already talked about the point of christianity, which was salvation, above. Sorry if I've been talking too aggressively about this, I'm just trying to make a solid point.

Here's the site where I found some solid supporting bible verses (they are out of context, but that doesn't change their meaning) http://www.biblebell.org/anthro1.html.

@TK
Technically that's your answer. Your question was asked/stated like "Say this creationism did happen, still then, who/what created God?"

Creationism explains the creation of the universe bible-wise. And creationism says that God was there before anything existed and before he created the universe.

So going by the creationism fact that he was there before anything at all existed and that he created the universe, that is the answer to why God didn't need creation, and why he was always there.


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Old 02-15-2008, 09:08 AM   #115
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A most learned contemporary Theologian was noted for giving these instructions to the teachers studying under him.

ALL religious texts should have put in their preface/foreward..(Kuran, Torah, Bible etc)

"Before you read the rest of this text, these are the messages you are actually meant to get out of it :

1. Love Thy Neighbour

2. Treat others as you expect to be treated

3. Be forgiving

4. Please replace the book entitled "The Old Testament"(or its equivalent) with the Laws & Statutes binding the region you currently live in

>>Anything else you read into this book is entirely and unequivocally overshadowed by the the above listed 4 points. Any notion you may get from any phrase in this text is also automatically cancelled out if not in agreeance with the above 4 points

>>The Book of Revelation(and its equivalents) was a cleverly written indictment against Roman subjugation of the early Christian Church. Please do not interpret it literally and live in fear of horseman and dragons. There is a multitude of evidence to support this(see appendix for further readings)

Live by the above 4 credos and the world will be a wonderful place, I promise."

I think if you read any dogma without knowing the above, and the historical context in which the text was originally created(and subsequently altered), you are doing a great job at keeping yourself and those around you ignorant.



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Old 02-16-2008, 03:09 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astrotoy7
A most learned contemporary Theologian was noted for giving these instructions to the teachers studying under him.

ALL religious texts should have put in their preface/foreward..(Kuran, Torah, Bible etc)

"Before you read the rest of this text, these are the messages you are actually meant to get out of it :

1. Love Thy Neighbour

2. Treat others as you expect to be treated

3. Be forgiving

4. Please replace the book entitled "The Old Testament"(or its equivalent) with the Laws & Statutes binding the region you currently live in

>>Anything else you read into this book is entirely and unequivocally overshadowed by the the above listed 4 points. Any notion you may get from any phrase in this text is also automatically cancelled out if not in agreeance with the above 4 points

>>The Book of Revelation(and its equivalents) was a cleverly written indictment against Roman subjugation of the early Christian Church. Please do not interpret it literally and live in fear of horseman and dragons. There is a multitude of evidence to support this(see appendix for further readings)

Live by the above 4 credos and the world will be a wonderful place, I promise."

I think if you read any dogma without knowing the above, and the historical context in which the text was originally created(and subsequently altered), you are doing a great job at keeping yourself and those around you ignorant.



mtfbwya
I totally agree with this notion, I beleve people become so wrapped up in the story of each religious text, they lose the message, which was rather eloquently stated in the post I quoted. I mean, isn't the one true basic message of most religions to "stop being so damn mean to other people and try to enjoy your life, and if you don't know how to do that, here's a book of instructions on how to"? Seriuosly, when you boil it down, don't they all pretty much say that? Now, if I've managed to accomplish this without going to Church every Sunday, why do I even need the Bible or the Torah or the Koran or the Talmud?


"Who is splendid among men, who is glorious among heroes?"
--excerpt from Gilgamesh
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Old 02-20-2008, 11:19 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Kylilin
I totally agree with this notion, I beleve people become so wrapped up in the story of each religious text, they lose the message, which was rather eloquently stated in the post I quoted. I mean, isn't the one true basic message of most religions to "stop being so damn mean to other people and try to enjoy your life, and if you don't know how to do that, here's a book of instructions on how to"? Seriuosly, when you boil it down, don't they all pretty much say that? Now, if I've managed to accomplish this without going to Church every Sunday, why do I even need the Bible or the Torah or the Koran or the Talmud?
How do you explain the parts that don't say that? Yes, that message is included in all of those texts, but there are other messages as well. Messages that often contradict one another.
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