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Old 11-05-2006, 03:08 PM   #1
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Saddaam Hussein given death sentence

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...dam/index.html

Regardless of my opinion of the war, all I can say is that it's about freaking time. The guy deserved it in Gulf War I, and he's finally getting it.



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Old 11-05-2006, 03:19 PM   #2
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Good riddance to bad rubbish. Now to see how long it will take them to carry out the sentence.....
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Old 11-05-2006, 04:04 PM   #3
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Finally. It's taken far too long to reach this verdict.


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Old 11-05-2006, 05:38 PM   #4
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Yeah, he deserves to die. It's too bad we can only kill him once. But don't you think killing him will just make him a martyr, and things will just get worse?
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Old 11-05-2006, 06:05 PM   #5
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Martyr or no, we cannot let him go unpunished for what he did.


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Old 11-05-2006, 07:03 PM   #6
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Sentencing him to death? Typical.

What we should do: put him back in charge of Iraq, and let him clean up the mess. Now THAT would be punishment.
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Old 11-05-2006, 07:09 PM   #7
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Good riddance to bad rubbish. Now to see how long it will take them to carry out the sentence.....
IIRC, the sentence is supposed to be Death By Hanging carried out within thirty days.


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Old 11-05-2006, 08:55 PM   #8
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The Death Penalty is barbaric, and death by hanging even more so.



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Old 11-05-2006, 09:11 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
The Death Penalty is barbaric, and death by hanging even more so.
Compared to ordering the genocide of thousands of Kurds, it's actually quite merciful.


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Old 11-05-2006, 09:14 PM   #10
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The death penalty, however distasteful, is the only way to truly get him out of the picture.
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Old 11-05-2006, 09:24 PM   #11
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Compared to ordering the genocide of thousands of Kurds, it's actually quite merciful.
Oh, well I guess if he started it...



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Old 11-05-2006, 09:40 PM   #12
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Oh, well I guess if he started it...
Punishments should be at least somewhat proportional to offenses. That's justice for you.


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Old 11-05-2006, 10:22 PM   #13
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Seems to me that the position that the death penalty is barbaric is a bit passe and naive. The idea of a final punishment for certain proscribed actions is not cruel in and of itself. I would agree that there are more humane ways of executing someone than hanging them, but don't buy into the argument that the dp is itself somehow evil. If you wish, on the other hand, to address how it is applied (circumstances leading to), then that is a different story altogether and fit for another thread.

As to Saddam, it would be foolish to think that keeping him alive would be any safer than swiftly executing him. From prison he could still try to exert influence or possibly even be broken out of prison. Also, putting SH in charge of Iraq to clean it up would be insane. We'd most likely have to go back in again in 10-12 years (or even sooner). However, the left would certainly shut up about all the torture he'd commit after we left b/c there'd be no political mileage in it for them.
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Old 11-05-2006, 10:40 PM   #14
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I disagree with the concept that "justice" is somehow equal to retribution, and I wonder how anyone can possibly have the idea that revenge can ever be a good thing. In addition to not being a particularly good punishment - after all, dying does not exactly last a long time - doing the same thing, in effect, that he has done does not exemplify the type of society I would like to be part of. I ask you people who say 'good riddance' - would you kill him yourself? Feel justified enough to do it? Who are you to cast the first proverbial stone?

Quite frankly, that sort of thinking that leads to this sentence is alien to me, and I'm glad it is so. What has happened is in the past, and there is no amount of "justified" revenge* that will change that fact.




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Old 11-05-2006, 11:35 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Also, putting SH in charge of Iraq to clean it up would be insane.
Somebody didn't get the joke...


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Old 11-05-2006, 11:50 PM   #16
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Frankly, yeah, I'd have no problem pulling the switch, saying "fire" or whatever was necessary to eliminate the likes of a SH or OBL or etc...Actually, you're incorrect when you compare executing someone guilty of SH's crimes/acts with what he's done. It's a real case of apples and oranges with the only remote similarity being death as part of the equation. Honestly, I don't think that anyone believes that the killing of one person somehow magically undoes whatever crime that person's guilty of in the first place. However, the dp is a deterrent in one very real way, that person will no longer be capable of killing again.

However, Sam, what prescription do you have for the problem? Should he be sent to a prison in the US? Maybe share a cell w/Noriega? How do you solve the problem of Saddam? And at what cost?
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Old 11-06-2006, 12:00 AM   #17
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Actually I got the joke, it was just pretty lame. Point is, there are people who believe that that would be a viable solution. It's usually delivered tongue in cheek with the understanding that SH would merely wipe all all the opposition mercilessly and would so end the insurgerncy. Assuming for the sake of the joke that SH would actually try to clean up such a mess, it would be an unending herculean task. It would also assume that SH had enough of a conscience to care. B/c the premise lacks the last part, it kinda falls flat.
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Old 11-06-2006, 01:08 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Frankly, yeah, I'd have no problem pulling the switch, saying "fire" or whatever was necessary to eliminate the likes of a SH or OBL or etc...
Then you and I are very different people, and I am very glad I'm not you.

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Actually, you're incorrect when you compare executing someone guilty of SH's crimes/acts with what he's done. It's a real case of apples and oranges with the only remote similarity being death as part of the equation.
I consider the 'death' part to be a little more significant than a 'remote part of the equation.' I don't see how you can justify killing someone you have in custody when there is nothing they can do to harm anyone else.

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Honestly, I don't think that anyone believes that the killing of one person somehow magically undoes whatever crime that person's guilty of in the first place. However, the dp is a deterrent in one very real way, that person will no longer be capable of killing again.
So will life in prison. What's your point? Killing's better? Why? Remember that this execution will no doubt absolutely inflame a lot of people. This will not be a deterrence to anyone else either, not that the death penalty ever was. Kim Jong-il is not going to think, "Oh my, they got him, maybe I should mend my dastardly ways!"

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However, Sam, what prescription do you have for the problem? Should he be sent to a prison in the US? Maybe share a cell w/Noriega? How do you solve the problem of Saddam?
Put him in a hole and keep him there, just like everyone else that is a danger to society. He's not special.

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And at what cost?
At what cost, you say. Am I somehow to believe that we have suddenly decided to become concerned about how much money it will cost to keep one man alive for maybe twenty years? The Iraq war has cost around $340,055,700,000. Keeping Saddam alive would cost us about one bomb a year (30k). I think we might be able to spare it. I hear the DoD has some cash.


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Old 11-06-2006, 03:20 AM   #19
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Yes, Sam, we are very different and the feeling is mutual.

Why should it bother you that someone who would kill, or be responsible for ordering so many deaths, might be executed? Some actions warrant more severe punishments than others. We're not talking lifting a few candybars or boosting a car. Should I take from this that you believe all the Nazis who were hanged after Nuremberg should have instead been left to rot in Spandau prison?

I want to say "Duh!" w/regard to your point about inflamed passions b/c we're talking about the middle east. Regardless of SH's final sentence, there will be problems. The problems won't end b/c SH is spared. If he is, it will be to a prison in Iraq, not the US, and that will likely become a lightening rod for increased attacks by sunnis looking to break him out of the klink. If he's spared, it's just as likely that the shia and kurds will be verrry POed and would stir up trouble. SH's fate is a Catch-22. So, as far as I'm concerned, there's no reason not to execute him.

As I wasn't addressing the question of deterence w/regard to others, your point is irrelevant. Life in prison is no guarantee he won't get out (ie escape) or that he couldn't cause problems from within jail.

As to the whole money thing, it's not a question of whether we've got enough money, but rather if he's worth the expenditure of funds that couldn't be put to better use elsewhere. The DoD might have the cash, but it'd be better spent on ammo and spare parts.
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Old 11-06-2006, 07:35 AM   #20
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He has to be executed.

Think of it this way: Certain states in the USA executes people for killing one person. Is the US of A capable, from an ethical point of view, to go "kill one person and it's death row. Kill thousands, and it's jail for life"?

I would find that even more disgusting.

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Why should it bother you that someone who would kill, or be responsible for ordering so many deaths, might be executed?
It should bother him for the same reason it bothers me that the Guantánamo Bay detainees, a lot of which may be cold-blooded murderers, are being tortured.

They're human beings.

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Old 11-06-2006, 09:18 AM   #21
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Perhaps there are some of us who think the fact that the United States utilizes capital punishment is horrific and immoral.

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there's no reason not to execute him.
Assuming you have no moral qualms against murder.
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Should I take from this that you believe all the Nazis who were hanged after Nuremberg should have instead been left to rot in Spandau Prison?
Yes.



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Old 11-06-2006, 10:05 AM   #22
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But with arms, legs, fingers, ears, nose and lips chopped off. The peenis maybe too. But not the balls, and then there should be naked girls dancing all the time? Hm.


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Old 11-06-2006, 10:32 AM   #23
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@ the above.

Capital punishment is indeed distasteful, but we're not exactly in charge, here. We Americans made a big stink over the "using the Iraqis to put Saddam on trial" as a publicity stunt. we have to accept the full ramifications of that. They're free to arse-rape him if they sentence him that way (though we certianly would throw a fit if they did).

All things considered, if he has to die, then I'd rather we do it. Hanging, I hear, if not done correctly, is extremely painful. At least the needle has no pain to it. Or, again, as I've been told. I'm not one to want to experience that to find out, because I'd be dead and all, but I've no reason not to believe there's no pain to the needle. After all, it's the 21st century, and we've got to have learned how to do something in that time.



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Old 11-06-2006, 10:34 AM   #24
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If people have problems with the Death Penalty morally, just remember that in Iraq and many other places around the world, it's considered perfectly reasonable and justifiable traditional punishment, especially for someone convicted of the crimes Saddam just got nailed for. Especially in Muslim countires. Despite the fact that America's long friendship with Saddam and the fact they armed him with the same sort of chemical weapons they supposedly invaded the place to go looking for were neatly swept under the rug, he was tried, found guilty and sentenced in Iraq by Iraqis. Amoral, cruel, barbaric or not, they've made their choice and it's nobody's business but the Iraqis what to do with him. Besides, isn't this what the invasion was about? Oh, wait, no, it was WMDs looming ominously over the US and its allies. Oh, wait, no, it was 9/11. Oh, wait, no...well, whatever it was for, Saddam still was a very naughty man and there are a lot more people more deserving of our sympathies.

As for the reaction from Iraqis themselves, it's been pretty much exactly what the US was expecting (unlike just about everything else over there). The Shiites are happy, and the Sunnis are pissed off. Spare Saddam, and you'd get the reverse. There's no solution to the situation that isn't going to make someone unhappy, but at least with SH dead, his influence can finally end and the country can get on with the rest of its life. Besides, Death by Hanging is pretty much both painless and instantaneous when done properly. Body weight X dropped from height Y with rope properly placed = neck snapped at 2nd or 3rd cervical vertebrae = dead before the nerve impulses can ever reach the brain.


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Old 11-06-2006, 11:47 AM   #25
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Perhaps some of you would like to more clearly define what constitutes murder. Is it merely killing someone? If so, then such things as self defence and abortion can be construed, fairly, as murder also. One of the definitions of murder is that it is an unlawful killing. If the laws of the land permit killing one for committing heinous acts, then such execution is hardly murder. If, on the other hand, the state were to just randomly round up people and hang them for their color or gender, that could be fairly deemed murderous. Even in the US, where capital punishment is permissible, the act is neither swift nor irreversible. The states's governor always has the final say about whether to follow through or not.
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Old 11-06-2006, 03:34 PM   #26
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Sentencing him to death? Typical.

What we should do: put him back in charge of Iraq, and let him clean up the mess. Now THAT would be punishment.
I agree with you there TK. Just let him off like that, man that sucks.
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Old 11-06-2006, 04:00 PM   #27
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[...] just remember that in Iraq and many other places around the world, [execution is] considered perfectly reasonable and justifiable traditional punishment, especially for someone convicted of the crimes Saddam just got nailed for. Especially in Muslim countires.
Doesn't make it more right.

For the record, I'm against capital punishment. You only have one life, and even if you do something as hideous as taking away another person's life, your existence is still "sacred" and should not be done away with. There's also the fact that as long as execution is practiced, innocents will be put to death.

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[...] Death by Hanging is pretty much both painless and instantaneous when done properly.
Yes. And when done improperly...

And let's not forget that seeing the executioners' hatred towards Saddam, I perceive the likelyhood of "accidentally" getting certain details wrong to be quite high. I'd much rather Saddam was executed humanely, to the extent you can use that word in the same sentence as "execution".

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Old 11-06-2006, 07:13 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
Assuming you have no moral qualms against murder.
Yes.


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Originally Posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Yes. And when done improperly...
...it's all the better. Painful forms of execution should not be common practice, but I think there are some people who should be punished in that manner.


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Old 11-06-2006, 07:24 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf:

Why should it bother you that someone who would kill, or be responsible for ordering so many deaths, might be executed? Some actions warrant more severe punishments than others. We're not talking lifting a few candybars or boosting a car. Should I take from this that you believe all the Nazis who were hanged after Nuremberg should have instead been left to rot in Spandau prison?
To you, Totenkopf, and to all those who agree with you that Saddam should be executed for his crime... I ask a simple question.

If it is right for Saddam Hussein to be executed for ordering the death of other people, is it right for our leaders to be executed along with him?

The orders of our leaders have caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi people. The orders of our leaders have destroyed Iraq's infrastructure. The orders of our leaders have violated international law. The orders of our leaders were and are immoral by any universally accepted standard.

So if you believe in death for Saddam, do you believe the same punishment for say... Donald Rumsfeld? Paul Wolfowitz?

If not... you're not being very even-handed.

I personally believe that when a man seeks to kill another creature for purely immoral reasons, he forfeits his own right to life. So you could say in a way I'm in favour of the death penalty. But I'm also in favour of only handing the death penalty fairly and evenly. If you sentence a man to death for a crime you yourself are guilty of, you are merely a hypocrite.


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Old 11-06-2006, 08:07 PM   #30
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His death will serve no purpose, other than to satisfy a certain bloodlust, and a primal need for vengeance. Therefore, I personally don't see the necessity of it.

In fact, for him to serve out the rest of his days, alone in a jail cell, getting older, frail, and largely forgotten by the world and history would be a far, far greater punishment for someone of his mindset.

Dying as a martyr and a defiant tyrant to the last is giving him pretty much the death he wants.

But, whatever... It's probably already a done deal.

The timing of the announcement of the verdict and execution seem a bit suspect to me, on the eve of an important American election and all. Not saying it was politically motivated from our side in any way.... but it sure has that feel about it.

I wonder if our government and major media outlets (who seem so queasy about showing any of the consequences of war in the form of footage with dead bodies in it, or even a flag-draped casket...) will show his execution... or at least his corpse (like they did his sons...)

I suspect they will.


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Old 11-06-2006, 08:28 PM   #31
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@DE & Spider AL: I wasn't attempting to justify the use of the Death Penalty generally, nor did I touch upon the US government's culpability in both the crimes the Saddam committed while in power under the US' aegis and the overall body count caused by the US' illegal invasion and conquest of Iraq. I was simply saying by traditional Iraqi and muslim standards of justice, death is a common and appropriate penalty for the sort of crimes that Saddam did indeed commit while in power. With all the crap going on in Iraq, it's sometimes easy to lose sight of the fact that Saddam Hussein is anything but innocent and undeserving.

And I'm sure video footage of his execution will turn up on US tv sooner rather than later. Probably on FOX News, just before the announcement of the 1000th US military death in Iraq.


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Old 11-06-2006, 09:25 PM   #32
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Well, Spider, since I didn't kill anyone, I guess that means I'm not a hypocrite.

However, if you can produce the proof that Bush, et al were actively targeting civilians for the hell of it, then I'd agree that under those circumstances you'd have a point. But if were gonna get that elastic in deciding responsibility, then why stop there. Surely the world is full of leaders who have contibuted to the deaths of "innocents" worldwide. I guess we should include Tony Blair and any other europeans who joined in this "immoral" endeavor to unseat SH. While we're at it, lets take down the Iranians too, b/c they are far from innocent in the bloodbath we view Iraq as today.
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Old 11-06-2006, 09:54 PM   #33
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However, if you can produce the proof that Bush, et al were actively targeting civilians for the hell of it, then I'd agree that under those circumstances you'd have a point.
Define "for the Hell of it". Saddam definetly didn't gas those Kurds just for fun. He did it because they had this idea that they should revolt and take their homeland back.

And yes, Bush&Co. have deliberately killed civilians. They've bombed a Pakistani village full of civilians to kill a single Al-Q'aida leader. They've released White Phosphorous, an illegal weapon, over Fallujah. They have targetted civilians "just for the Hell of it" several times already.

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Old 11-06-2006, 10:15 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Totenkopf:

Well, Spider, since I didn't kill anyone, I guess that means I'm not a hypocrite.
Neither did you pass the sentence which now hangs over Saddam's ugly bonce. I don't think you'll find that I accused you of either of those things. My final statement on hypocrisy was a general adage. One could call it axiomatic.

I did however touch on the idea that if you don't apply the death penalty fairly and evenly, you are indeed being hypocritical. Which is equally true.

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Originally Posted by Totenkopf:

However, if you can produce the proof that Bush, et al were actively targeting civilians for the hell of it, then I'd agree that under those circumstances you'd have a point.
As Eagle has pointed out, neither did Saddam "target civilians for the hell of it". But frankly, having some spurious reason (WMDs) for one's killings doesn't make the killings more morally excusable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf:

But if were gonna get that elastic in deciding responsibility, then why stop there. Surely the world is full of leaders who have contibuted to the deaths of "innocents" worldwide. I guess we should include Tony Blair and any other europeans who joined in this "immoral" endeavor to unseat SH. While we're at it, lets take down the Iranians too, b/c they are far from innocent in the bloodbath we view Iraq as today.
There's nothing "elastic" in that idea. That's applying a general principle universally. If Saddam deserves death for his crimes, then so do all our leaders. If you find that idea incomprehensible, I'd encourage you to go off and self-analyse a little.

I mean, can you think of one single moral reason why Saddam's crimes mean that he deserves death... while the moral crimes of our own leaders do not warrant such a punishment? Because I can't.

If Saddam should die, a lot of other people should also die. Our leaders and the allies of our leaders, the corrupt regimes we support around the world, and those who are quite frankly war criminals from our own ranks who have escaped punishment for their heinous acts since the sixties.

You seem to think this idea is silly... but it's just fairness. Even-handedness. Truth. Without self-delusion.


[FW] Spider AL
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Old 11-06-2006, 10:46 PM   #35
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For the record, I wasn't inferring you were acusing me of anything (hence the smilie after the sentence). Perhaps I took your sentence a bit too literally for your taste (If you sentence a man to death for a crime you yourself are guilty of, you are merely a hypocrite). Having said that, perhaps you'd like to kill/execute the soldiers carrying out the orders as well. Technically, they are guilty of the immorality you accuse their leadership of also. Or perhaps you'll permit the Nuremberg defense of "we were only following orders".

As to the rest of it, I simply don't agree with your premise that the death penalty is immoral. Neither do I advocate using it profigately. Still no need to get testy (...I'd encourage you to go off and self-analyse a little).
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Old 11-06-2006, 10:47 PM   #36
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Point of order: When American cluster bombs go off in residential areas and waste thousands of civilians, it's not "collateral damage" or whatever the military buzzword is for "Oops!". Cluster bombs are designed, built, manufactured and deployed to do exactly that. Also interesting to note, you guys know those nifty A-10 Warthog attack planes that the army and air force use for ground attacks? Those nose-mounted 30mm cannons actually fire depleted uranium rounds. They use uranium not for the radioactivity, but for the mass. Uranium is twice as heavy as lead, and has a far greater kinetic impact than a lead slug; so great in fact, that the round actually heats up so high it becomes molten when it strikes its target. The thing is, when it cools down, it particulates into a fine powder, which then disperses into the environment. It also might have just a little something to do with the fact that southern Iraqi children now have a 20X greater incidence of juvenile leukemia than before the first Gulf War.

Why do I mention this, you may ask? Because Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney et al will never, ever, ever see the inside of a courtroom for any of the stuff like that they've done. I absolutely agree with Spider AL in that the same standards should apply to both sets of leaders, but all of us know there isn't a snowball's chance in hell of this actually happening. At least in Iraq, this one guy who really did order thousands of innocent people killed will be executed.


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Old 11-06-2006, 10:50 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Yes, Sam, we are very different and the feeling is mutual.
You're "very glad" that you would kill someone who is not capable of doing harm?

Quote:
Why should it bother you that someone who would kill, or be responsible for ordering so many deaths, might be executed?
I'd ask why it doesn't bother you to kill a person that poses no further danger. I have the same problem with those who support the death penalty in any form. They're already in custody, they cannot do anything, where is the justification?

Quote:
Some actions warrant more severe punishments than others.
And in this case that punishment's purpose is solely and simply revenge. There's no other reason - there's no deterrent for other people, you've even said that yourself. Sure, he won't be able to commit those acts in the future... but wait, he's already in jail and can't do them anyway. I don't think that revenge is a justifiable reason to kill someone.

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We're not talking lifting a few candybars or boosting a car. Should I take from this that you believe all the Nazis who were hanged after Nuremberg should have instead been left to rot in Spandau prison?
You may. I've also opposed killing Milosevic when he was in jail, same deal.

Quote:
I want to say "Duh!" w/regard to your point about inflamed passions b/c we're talking about the middle east. Regardless of SH's final sentence, there will be problems. The problems won't end b/c SH is spared. If he is, it will be to a prison in Iraq, not the US, and that will likely become a lightening rod for increased attacks by sunnis looking to break him out of the klink. If he's spared, it's just as likely that the shia and kurds will be verrry POed and would stir up trouble. SH's fate is a Catch-22. So, as far as I'm concerned, there's no reason not to execute him.
So far as I'm concerned, all paths being equal, I'd choose the path that involves the least destruction. Why would you actively seek to kill people when there's no difference in the choices? Oh, that's right. Vengeance.

Quote:
As I wasn't addressing the question of deterence w/regard to others, your point is irrelevant. Life in prison is no guarantee he won't get out (ie escape) or that he couldn't cause problems from within jail.
You can say the same about any criminal in jail for life. We should just kill 'em all. After all, they might get out. Yes, that was sarcasm.

You can solve him causing problems in jail by simply not allowing him the freedom to create such situations.

Quote:
As to the whole money thing, it's not a question of whether we've got enough money, but rather if he's worth the expenditure of funds that couldn't be put to better use elsewhere. The DoD might have the cash, but it'd be better spent on ammo and spare parts.
Ah, I see. The DoD needs another bomb to use. I'm not convinced.

I want to see someone give me a reasonable explanation of how this act of vengeance is justified. I don't want to hear "he killed them, so he deserves it now." I know that part. I want to know why people think it is acceptable to practice vengeance in the first place.


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Old 11-06-2006, 11:18 PM   #38
Spider AL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf:

Having said that, perhaps you'd like to kill/execute the soldiers carrying out the orders as well. Technically, they are guilty of the immorality you accuse their leadership of also. Or perhaps you'll permit the Nuremberg defense of "we were only following orders".
Anyone with even a rudimentary sense of morality will inform you that nobody can use the excuse "I was told to commit this immoral act".

As a purely technical matter, no-one can be forced to commit an immoral act. Even if a gun is put to your head, you have the choice to die rather than to commit an evil atrocity. He who chooses to commit the evil and survive chose the preservation of his own skin over moral rectitude. And though his decision can be understood as a human decision, it is not the moral choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf:

As to the rest of it, I simply don't agree with your premise that the death penalty is immoral. Neither do I advocate using it profigately. Still no need to get testy (...I'd encourage you to go off and self-analyse a little).
Well you can't be addressing me with the first sentence, because I've never stated in this thread that the "death penalty is immoral".

As for the rest, I'm never "testy". I seriously do suggest that if you feel that Saddam deserves to die and our own leaders do NOT... you need some contemplation time. Because this isn't even a very difficult moral conundrum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod:

I absolutely agree with Spider AL in that the same standards should apply to both sets of leaders, but all of us know there isn't a snowball's chance in hell of this actually happening. At least in Iraq, this one guy who really did order thousands of innocent people killed will be executed.
Doesn't work like that, Mace. Saddam- like all men- deserves justice. Justice may involve the death penalty, but justice has to be even-handed, otherwise it's arbitrary vengeance.

Therefore, because none of the other war-criminals are being tried at the moment, what's happened to Saddam isn't justice, it's the victory of a group of evil barbarians over one other evil barbarian. Therefore it's not a moral occurrance, but a pathetically savage one. And nothing to be celebrated, rather to be mourned.


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Old 11-07-2006, 12:38 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
You're "very glad" that you would kill someone who is not capable of doing harm?

I'd ask why it doesn't bother you to kill a person that poses no further danger. I have the same problem with those who support the death penalty in any form. They're already in custody, they cannot do anything, where is the justification?

And in this case that punishment's purpose is solely and simply revenge. There's no other reason - there's no deterrent for other people, you've even said that yourself. Sure, he won't be able to commit those acts in the future... but wait, he's already in jail and can't do them anyway. I don't think that revenge is a justifiable reason to kill someone.

You may. I've also opposed killing Milosevic when he was in jail, same deal. As to your opening shot.......well, you're merely putting words in my mouth. I was only saying that I very glad I'm not you either.

So far as I'm concerned, all paths being equal, I'd choose the path that involves the least destruction. Why would you actively seek to kill people when there's no difference in the choices? Oh, that's right. Vengeance.

You can say the same about any criminal in jail for life. We should just kill 'em all. After all, they might get out. Yes, that was sarcasm.

You can solve him causing problems in jail by simply not allowing him the freedom to create such situations.

Ah, I see. The DoD needs another bomb to use. I'm not convinced.

I want to see someone give me a reasonable explanation of how this act of vengeance is justified. I don't want to hear "he killed them, so he deserves it now." I know that part. I want to know why people think it is acceptable to practice vengeance in the first place.
Rather amusing. The main problem with your argument is the notion that he DEFINITELY will pose no further harm. Last I checked, crystal balls don't actually see into the future. The only guarantee a dangerous criminal seizes to be a threat is execution. That also goes to your point about the road to less destruction. Won't know for sure till we cross that rubicon what the damage will be, nor can we know the other since the die has been cast.

Not convinced of what, I wonder? That the DoD doesn't have the spare change or that the money couldn't be better used elsewhere? Also, never addressed the issue of deterence other than to say that the criminal in question couldn't become a recidivist.

Your sarcasm (as if it weren't obvious) is misplaced b/c I have not said I support a liberal use of capital punishment. As to your opening shot.......well, you're merely putting words in my mouth. I was only saying that I very glad I'm not you either.

I'm not sure anyone should try to rise to your bait about providing any explanation as your mind appears to be closed on this matter. Might as well try to convince an athiest of God's existence or a fundamentalist that the theory of evolution is actually fact.
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Old 11-07-2006, 12:41 AM   #40
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Spider--Your logic seems to be that until all other offending parties in the Iraqi war are put to death, then SH can't be justifiably executed.

Perhaps I'm guilty of intuitng your position. You appear to believe that killing Sadam is immoral. Since capital punishment is killing, it's not unrerasonable for someone to conclude that you believe that capital punishment is itself immoral. You just seemed to be "touching" on that "axiomatically", apparently. So, if I've read between the lines incorrectly, then perhaps I'm supposed to come to the conclusion that killing Sadam IS morally acceptable, so long as you kill/execute more than just Sadam.

As far as the Nuremberg deal, I'm quite well aware of the moral ramifications of such a defense. It didn't work for the Nazis. I'm just trying to ascertain how long your hitlist is before SH could be executed.
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