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Old 11-10-2006, 07:59 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
The context of excusing Saddam's actions because he's evil but not Bush.
Who's excusing his actions? Where do you keep getting this from? Show me one single quote from this thread that shows a single person (myself included) who's defending Saddam Hussein's actions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
I never heard the actual quote. I know about weapons of mass destruction, which I think everyone knows by now is false. You have a link?
This was Bush himself. No, I don't happen to have a link, but this was part of a major news conference round about February 93.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
How do you figure that?
Because the US does business with worse than Saddam Hussein every day. Go check through your wardrobe or belonging for labels that say: "Made In China". Ever heard of fellow named General Augusto Pinochet? Look him up. And while we're at it, the US sold Saddam Hussein conventional weapons and the blueprints to make his own chemical weapons factories during the Regan administration. This is not Michael Moore-style hyperbole, this is well-documented fact. Saddam = nasty, evil dictator. NOBODY is disputing that. And the US funded and supported him for decades, and others even worse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Luke Force Chokes a Gammorean, he must be a Sith.
Luke Force Chokes several hundred thousand people and invades a sovereign nation for reasons he makes up an the fly. Hmm. Luke might not be such a nice guy after all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Really, there's no question the invasion was wrong. What Saddam did was many times worse and yet people are saying 'oh he shouldn't be put to death, he shouldn't hang' even if they appear to have fantasies of Bush being in Saddam's shoes.
Many times worse? With all the deaths from the Iraqi invasion, he's barely several times worse. Getting closer and closer to twice as bad. And the US aided and abetted many of those deaths. Reagan and Bush Sr. helped him do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
The link you provided leads to Canada having someone deported to Syria where he was tortured, because of a **** up with terror suspect lists. That's pretty bad, but there's nothing on gas chambers or concentration\death camps. The torture that took place at Abu Gharib and the claims of torture at Guatanamo are inexcuseable, but these are POW camps, not what the Nazis subjected the Jews to. In fact with Guatanamo conditions according to a recent news article are quite good.

Just the same however they're about five years too long in doing anything about the detainees there.
And Saddam had nothing like Nazi death camps either. The link I provided was meant to pertain strictly to the Arar case, not the US's lovely holiday camps they've set up like Guatanamo. You say yourself that what went on there and in Abu Grahib is inexcusable, so where do you draw the line? Look, hundreds of thousands of innocent people have died because of the US invasion. There is no dispute. The US has its lawyers working on the exact definition of "torture" to define how much pain and humiliation the can inflict on captives in Guatanamo and Abu Grahib and other places and still fall just this side of legal. WTF?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Evidence of this being Bush's doing and the innocence of people subjected to any punishment play a huge part. If Bush had been rounding up innocent Muslims to be killed or tortured then he sould be subject to the same trial Saddam was and if found guilty the same punishment.
Uh, he has. He invaded Iraq, remember? No weapons of mass destruction, no connection to 9/11, no nothing. And hundreds of thousands have died.


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Old 11-10-2006, 08:11 PM   #82
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Before I reply to this a question, if I may. What would be enough for you? For Bush to go down in history as the worst President the world has ever seen? The greatest evil ever to exist? For him to be tried and convicted for crimes against humanity and executed barbarically by Al Qaeda? What?
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Old 11-10-2006, 08:18 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
Actually, even though I'm not Spider AL, I have been reading his posts, and that isn't at all what he has said. Not once. His contention is that the execution of SH is because it was ordered by an illegitimate court and an illegitimate government. Had he been tried and sentenced by a legitimate jury, then I believe AL would find less to be upset about.
What I see in his posts is alot of arrogance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
This doesn't change the fact, however, that our own leaders are STILL guilty of the same crimes SH was convicted of, and it IS hypocrisy to think that SH is getting what he deserves if our own leaders don't also deserve the same.
I'm assuming with this logic every soldier, commander and official from WWII
should be hang like those Nazis demons they was protecting the world from.
Saddam deserves to be hang by piano wire, in my opinion.
I wish we had Hitler to hang today.
Dammit !

You just can't keep peace on this planet without alot of blood being spilled.
Every war that is fought civilians are going to die.

You can't go ahead and execute everyone who fight in wars or conflicts that civilians end up being killed in.
If the pacifists of this society want to execute the soldiers, commanders and officals who had precipitated in conflicts and wars, you will have millions of people to round up.

Last edited by windu6; 11-10-2006 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 11-10-2006, 08:38 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

The context of excusing Saddam's actions because he's evil but not Bush.
Nobody has "excused Saddam" in this thread. If you believe that anyone has "excused Saddam", then your comprehension is poor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

I never heard the actual quote. I know about weapons of mass destruction, which I think everyone knows by now is false. You have a link?
I'll field this.

The White House Press Archive.

Paragraph 24, Line 02.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

Luke Force Chokes a Gammorean, he must be a Sith.

Really, there's no question the invasion was wrong. What Saddam did was many times worse and yet people are saying 'oh he shouldn't be put to death, he shouldn't hang' even if they appear to have fantasies of Bush being in Saddam's shoes.
"What Saddam did was many times worse"? Worse than what? Worse than what? Illegally invading two other countries, causing countless deaths and unmeasurable suffering, imprisoning people from other nations without charge indefinitely? Using torture to try to loosen their tongues? Worse than that? Pfah.

What is this Luke Skywalker analogy you're putting forward here? Are you suggesting that the US government's acts of international aggression are in some way "a one time occurrance"? "A freak incident"? If so, you're wrong. The US has since the second world war been responsible for funding and directly committing some of the greatest military atrocities on record. The invasion of Iraq wasn't a "new thing", nor an isolated case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

Does George W. Bush junior have gas chambers and death camps? I ask because by the way you talk you make him out to be more evil than Saddam could ever be.
Saddam didn't have gas chambers, Nancy. Can you absorb that? Saddam was an evil, brutal dictator, he wasn't Hitler.

And you're once again forgetting that the US and the UK funded, politically supported and armed Saddam. ALL his atrocities. ALL of them, WE SHARE RESPONSIBILITY FOR. He's not just "some evil guy over there in foreign-land". We helped him to do the things he did. US actions helped him to keep control in Iraq right up until 2003.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

Evidence of this being Bush's doing and the innocence of people subjected to any punishment play a huge part. If Bush had been rounding up innocent Muslims to be killed or tortured then he sould be subject to the same trial Saddam was and if found guilty the same punishment.
Well the US certainly did have innocent muslims rounded up and tortured. And some of them are still in Guantanamo. And half a million Iraqi civilians dying as a result of the US invasion... doesn't strike you as incompatible with a world-view in which Georgie is a good guy compared to evil old foreign moustache-growin' Saddam?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

The torture that took place at Abu Gharib and the claims of torture at Guatanamo are inexcuseable, but these are POW camps, not what the Nazis subjected the Jews to. In fact with Guatanamo conditions according to a recent news article are quite good.
They're not "POW camps", because the prisoners there aren't even given the rights of POWs. The US government quite specifically doesn't classify the men held in places like Guantanamo as "prisoners of war". If they did, they'd have to afford them some rights. Guantanamo could legitimately be called a concentration camp, but it's not a POW camp.

And please note, the site "patterico.com" you've linked to six times isn't a news site, it's the blog of a rabid right-wing nutcase. And the Sun Times article was an editorial piece by a columnist, not an independent review of Guantanamo by an organisation like the Red Cross.

But as we see from this article, the Red Cross is only allowed into Guantanamo on the condition that they don't tell anyone what they see in there.

Go to www.reuters.com if you actually ever want to read news.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

As for 'Bush did this' and 'Bush lied about that' did any of this come from Fahrenhyte?
What's "Fahrenhyte"? We're quoting from reputable news sources... And Bush's own words here. You can't POSSIBLY argue with that, can you?


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Old 11-10-2006, 08:46 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
Nobody has "excused Saddam" in this thread. If you believe that anyone has "excused Saddam", then your comprehension is poor.
And this from someone who claims Jews use the Holocaust as an excuse for attacking Palestine? I don't think anything else needs to be said.
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Old 11-10-2006, 08:51 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Before I reply to this a question, if I may. What would be enough for you? For Bush to go down in history as the worst President the world has ever seen? The greatest evil ever to exist? For him to be tried and convicted for crimes against humanity and executed barbarically by Al Qaeda? What?
WTF? I dunno, maybe some recognition that starting wars for bullsh!t reasons and helping people like Saddam Hussein along for decades isn't ethical? Maybe that this black-and-white "If you don't support Bush and our troops, you love al-Qaeda!" rhetoric the Republicans love to propagate is a complete load?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
And this from someone who claims Jews use the Holocaust as an excuse for attacking Palestine? I don't think anything else needs to be said.
And there I was thinking you might be able to defend your views without resorting to personal attacks. Stick to the topic.


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Old 11-10-2006, 09:50 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod
And there I was thinking you might be able to defend your views without resorting to personal attacks. Stick to the topic.
Okay. Saddam Hussein is slated to be put to death by hanging in three weeks, after he was found guilty of crimes against humanity. Is this a fair punishment? Yes, I'm not sure about the death penalty and certainly question some forms of it, but it is the punishment Iraq has chosen. Would there be criticism had America carried out the trial? Of course there would, far greater criticism because Bush would be accused of using his influence and America would be seen as biased in their prosecution. People would criticise the UN putting Saddam on the stand because they don't believe justice would be carried out. A jury of his peers would be criticised because even though he might get off when judged through their eyes criticism would arise over the likes of Bin Laden, Kim Jong, Hamas, Palestine, ect presiding over a court of law. There is no way to provide a solution that will please people. None.

That goes doubly true for dealing with Bush. Perhaps the best way was back two years ago when people had the opportunity to vote him out. But despite the hatred he earnt over Iraq, despite the lies over weapons of mass destruction he was reelected, this time with no Florida scandal or any political manipulation that his naysayers can use to say he won it unfairly. So quite frankly the blame for Bush lies on you, yes YOU. You voted him in with full knowledge of the atrocities you lay at his feet, if you want Bush to be accountable for Iraq, what happens to terror suspects, September 11, and other crimes people claim against him, then shouldn't you take responsibility for voting him into power, and then ignoring the evils you level at him and choosing him again?
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Old 11-10-2006, 10:36 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
The context of excusing Saddam's actions because he's evil but not Bush.
I'm not sure how many times we have to say this, but nobody is excusing Saddam's actions. Nobody is saying that Saddam was a nice guy. Nobody is saying he is innocent of horrible crimes against humanity.

Saddam is a bad, bad man. Everybody knows this, which is why we don't feel it is necessary to TALK about it. Just like I don't need to write a post explaining why it is that we need to eat food to survive.

Once again, just so it cannot be confused. Nobody is excusing Saddam. Nobody is even saying that Bush and Co. are necessarily WORSE than Saddam, only that they are ALSO guilty of the same crimes he was tried for.



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Old 11-11-2006, 04:42 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
Once again, just so it cannot be confused. Nobody is excusing Saddam. Nobody is even saying that Bush and Co. are necessarily WORSE than Saddam, only that they are ALSO guilty of the same crimes he was tried for.
Gassing Kurds? Ordering the torture of his enemies? I had no idea Bush did this. I need a source, right now.
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Old 11-11-2006, 08:48 AM   #90
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For the record, I'm Canadian and therefore ineligible to vote in foreign elections, so no, I'm not one of the drooling meatheads who elected Bush either time. And for about the tenth bloody time, nobody is disputing Saddam's crimes or his derserving execution. What's it going to take for you to comprehend that, Nancy?

As for Bush being guilty of the same crimes Saddam is, well, the US government aided and abetted Saddam gassing Kurds and waging war because it armed and funded him for decades as well as selling him the plans for the chemical weapon factories that made the gas that killed the Kurds. The US is directly responsible for Saddam Hussein's manufacture of chemical weapons. If you hand a gun to someone and they shoot somebody else, you are also legally culpable for that person's death in any US court. You need a link? Okay, try reuters, CNN, the BBC, Amnesty International, the White House Press archives, name your poison. The US's long history with Saddam Hussein is well documented. Far too well documented for anyone in the Bush administration to even bother trying to deny it.

As for the torture bit, well, you said yourself in this very thread that what went on in Abu Grahib and Guatanamo Bay was inexcusable. What were you referring to if not the systematic torture and humiliation of the prisoners? You've seen the same pictures I have of the place that leaked out, right? Time Magazine must have a website, if you need to be reminded.


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Old 11-11-2006, 09:00 AM   #91
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But...people are saying Bush is guilty of the same things Saddam was charged with. Before this thread got sidetracked from the original topic, people claim George W. Bush junior aided Saddam and funded his chemical weapons that were used on the Kurds. That's how I interpret this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
Once again, just so it cannot be confused. Nobody is excusing Saddam. Nobody is even saying that Bush and Co. are necessarily WORSE than Saddam, only that they are ALSO guilty of the same crimes he was tried for.
Note that he's saying the same crimes he was tried for.

As for Bush ordering torture, did he? He's guilty of ordering torture? IIRC he condemned it and rightfully so. Any links that show he supported what happened at Abu Gharib? If you can provide one then I will go to every web site I can and say Bush is worse than Hitler.
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Old 11-11-2006, 10:29 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by ET Warrior:

Saddam is a bad, bad man. Everybody knows this, which is why we don't feel it is necessary to TALK about it. Just like I don't need to write a post explaining why it is that we need to eat food to survive.
We need to eat food to survive?

WHY OH WHY DID NOBODY TELL ME????////

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod:

WTF? I dunno, maybe some recognition that starting wars for bullsh!t reasons and helping people like Saddam Hussein along for decades isn't ethical? Maybe that this black-and-white "If you don't support Bush and our troops, you love al-Qaeda!" rhetoric the Republicans love to propagate is a complete load?
Oooh, wouldn't that be nice. Yeah, that'd be a good start.

-

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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

And this from someone who claims Jews use the Holocaust as an excuse for attacking Palestine? I don't think anything else needs to be said.
Hey, you've managed to fit an ad-hominem irrelevance and a misquote into one single post. Well done.

What I actually posted in the now defunct Holocaust thread was "The biggest impact that the holocaust has had on this generation, is to provide a catch-all excuse for Israel's continued atrocities in Palestine." Not "jews" mind you, but "Israel".

I stand by that statement. It's common for zionist extremists to cite the holocaust as one of the reasons they think jewish people will never be safe anywhere but within their own state, and therefore by implication they justify all the monstrous acts that the state of Israel has committed in order to "secure" that state. And you know, many jewish people who criticise Israel for committing war crimes and imply that the zionist element are exploiting the tragedies in jewish history for their own political gain are promptly labelled as "self-hating jews" by the... very vocal zionists both within and outside Israel. This is a morally indefensible situation.

But hey, your little ad-hominem is totally irrelevant to this discussion. Try reading and responding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

A jury of his peers would be criticised because even though he might get off when judged through their eyes criticism would arise over the likes of Bin Laden, Kim Jong, Hamas, Palestine, ect presiding over a court of law. There is no way to provide a solution that will please people. None.
I love the way you suggest that "palestine" in general is as evil as Saddam Hussein. How foolish.

Now hear this: It's nothing to do with "pleasing people". It's about doing the right thing. The moral thing. Trying Saddam in a court that was sanctioned under international law by truly international organisations would be the optimally moral way to try him. But unless our own leaders were tried in in the same court, this would also be immoral.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

quite frankly the blame for Bush lies on you, yes YOU. You voted him in with full knowledge of the atrocities you lay at his feet, if you want Bush to be accountable for Iraq, what happens to terror suspects, September 11, and other crimes people claim against him, then shouldn't you take responsibility for voting him into power, and then ignoring the evils you level at him and choosing him again?
You don't really think that people who hold the kind of moralist beliefs that I do are the kind of people who would vote for Bush, or any of his cronies even once, do you? Bizarre. Furthermore, I'm English and therefore am unlikely to vote in US elections.

I voted against Tony Blair twice, if that helps you understand at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``:

But...people are saying Bush is guilty of the same things Saddam was charged with.
Let's examine a few of the war crimes that Saddam can be charged with:

1. Illegally invading another country. (Kuwait.)
2. Ordering the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians. (Kurds.)
3. Illegally imprisoning innocent people and torturing them. (Kurds, political dissidents.)

Now let's examine only a couple of the many war crimes that Bushie could be charged with:

1. Illegally invading another country. (Iraq.)
2. Ordering actions which inevitably caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians. (Iraqis.)
3. Illegally imprisoning and torturing innocent men. (Foreign nationals who haven't been proved guilty in a court of law, tortured in Abu Ghraib and tortured with governmental sanction in Guantanamo.)

End of line.


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Old 11-11-2006, 11:57 AM   #93
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Saddam and Bush are guilty for doing what men have done in their position since the beginning of civilization.

The problem isn’t the actions of the men in power the problem is the men in power don’t really represent their people. This is true no matter what country you live in. The difference is how they maintain their power. Saddam did what was necessary to maintain his power in the society he ruled in. Americans if anything are too gentle, because we expect people to do what we think is in their best interest regardless of the reality. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn’t.

Go the saying “you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make them drink.”

Or

You can give Arabs the chance for a better life, but you can’t make them stop hacking each others heads off.

I look at it like this being a Dictator, President, or King whatever is like a big game. The people that know how to manipulate and control the world around them survive. If they make a wrong play they get hung in 30 days. SH should have been more willing to scratch the USAs back again. If so he would still be killing Kurds and waving guns in the air.


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Old 11-11-2006, 12:28 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL

What I actually posted in the now defunct Holocaust thread was "The biggest impact that the holocaust has had on this generation, is to provide a catch-all excuse for Israel's continued atrocities in Palestine." Not "jews" mind you, but "Israel".

I stand by that statement. It's common for zionist extremists to cite the holocaust as one of the reasons they think jewish people will never be safe anywhere but within their own state, and therefore by implication they justify all the monstrous acts that the state of Israel has committed in order to "secure" that state. And you know, many jewish people who criticise Israel for committing war crimes and imply that the zionist element are exploiting the tragedies in jewish history for their own political gain are promptly labelled as "self-hating jews" by the... very vocal zionists both within and outside Israel. This is a morally indefensible situation.
Yeah, whatever !
Hate in disguise?


Quote:
1. Illegally invading another country. (Kuwait.)
2. Ordering the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians. (Kurds.)
3. Illegally imprisoning innocent people and torturing them. (Kurds, political dissidents.)

Now let's examine only a couple of the many war crimes that Bushie could be charged with:

1. Illegally invading another country. (Iraq.)
2. Ordering actions which inevitably caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians. (Iraqis.)
3. Illegally imprisoning and torturing innocent men. (Foreign nationals who haven't been proved guilty in a court of law, tortured in Abu Ghraib and tortured with governmental sanction in Guantanamo.)

End of line.
Nancy you are wasting your time arguing with a pacifist.
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Old 11-11-2006, 02:30 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Gassing Kurds? Ordering the torture of his enemies?
I'm pretty sure there was quite a lengthy discussion about the torture that occurs in the prisons the United States has set up outside of the country. I don't think I need to point that out.

And perhaps G.W. isn't guilty of 'gassing the Kurds', but you don't have to do the EXACT SAME THING as someone else to be guilty of the same crime.

For example, you stab your doctor with a scalpel blade because you're tired of him overcharging you. I shoot the bus driver because I was late to my appointment. Neither of us committed the exact same act, yet I'm pretty sure we're both guilty of murder, yes? Saddam Hussein is charged with being responsible for thousands of dead due to his orders. Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians are dead as a result of Bush's orders.



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Old 11-11-2006, 05:14 PM   #96
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Did he order the deaths of the Iraqi people? Not Saddam's army or the Insurgents, did he order the military to bomb towns with the intent of killing non combatents? I truely find this hard to believe.
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Old 11-11-2006, 05:17 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Did he order the deaths of the Iraqi people? Not Saddam's army or the Insurgents, did he order the military to bomb towns with the intent of killing non combatents? I truely find this hard to believe.
Did he know that an urban war would cause the deaths of thousands of civilians? Yes. Did he go through with the war anyway, which he KNEW had NO legal or moral justification - no WMD's, no al-Qaeda connection, etc. Yes he did.
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Old 11-11-2006, 05:19 PM   #98
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Yes, there's no denying that, and he is evil for doing so. There, happy? Feel vindicated? The question was did he set out to kill the people of Iraq or remove Saddam from power?
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Old 11-11-2006, 05:30 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Yes, there's no denying that, and he is evil for doing so. There, happy? Feel vindicated? The question was did he set out to kill the people of Iraq or remove Saddam from power?
Clearly he did not make it his goal to kill Iraqi civilians. However, while it was not his intention to have so many of the 'liberated' Iraqis to be killed, it still happened. There is a point, I believe, when recklessness cannot be excused on the grounds that it's not intentional. His decision to invade was so reckless that it has turned a country which was, while one ****ty place to live, at least stable and not in the middle of an ethnic cleansing campaign.

It's like the story I heard on TV about a drunk driver on the wrong side of the freeway who slammed head-on into a limo, which was carrying a newly-wed couple and their family. The collision was so violent that at least one child killed in the accident was decapitated. For this, the drunk driver was not charged with anything less than murder. No, not involuntary homicide or manslaughter, but murder.
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Old 11-11-2006, 05:34 PM   #100
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A large part of the blame, don't forget, falls on Iraqi Insurgents who wanted Saddam to remain in power, but certainly we should not have gone into Iraq, and now that we are there we have to see it through. We cannot just leave it like Vietnam and Somalia. The African country is still suffering because of the clan fighting and butchers who used sarvation as a weapon of war.
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Old 11-11-2006, 05:52 PM   #101
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The question was did he set out to kill the people of Iraq or remove Saddam from power?
Sigh. He knew that if he invaded Iraq many Iraqi civilians would die, and the country would be thrown into turmoil. He invaded anyway. So yes, he "set out to kill the people", in the same way that a mugger who beats people up and steals their cash "sets out to beat people up". Even if he has an ulterior motive for his violence, his violence is intentional and part of his crime.

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A large part of the blame, don't forget, falls on Iraqi Insurgents who wanted Saddam to remain in power
A large part of the blame for what exactly?

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but certainly we should not have gone into Iraq, and now that we are there we have to see it through. We cannot just leave it like Vietnam and Somalia.
lol "like vietnam".

The only way the US could ever hope to even BEGIN to repair the damage they've done to Iraq is to funnel such a HUGE amount of money into the battered nation, that it would probably ruin the US economy. Repairing Iraq isn't going to happen. We could stay in Iraq for the next century and still not help the country sufficiently to atone for our crimes.


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Old 11-11-2006, 06:08 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider AL
Sigh. He knew that if he invaded Iraq many Iraqi civilians would die, and the country would be thrown into turmoil. He invaded anyway. So yes, he "set out to kill the people", in the same way that a mugger who beats people up and steals their cash "sets out to beat people up". Even if he has an ulterior motive for his violence, his violence is intentional and part of his crime.

I don't like Bush but this is ridiculous.
Also these so called logical examples you give are ridiculous too.
He "set out to kill the people", come on.
He f**k up by invading Iraq and he is an idiot but I don't think he is evil.

Last edited by windu6; 11-11-2006 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 11-11-2006, 06:43 PM   #103
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This may sound like an obvious question, but if we were to claim Bush intended to kill Iraqi people, then the suicide bombings that Palestine had conducted against Israel, would it be fair to say they intended to kill Jews or does another rule apply to them?
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Old 11-11-2006, 10:08 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
This may sound like an obvious question, but if we were to claim Bush intended to kill Iraqi people, then the suicide bombings that Palestine had conducted against Israel, would it be fair to say they intended to kill Jews or does another rule apply to them?
WTF does that have to do with Saddam or Iraq? Hello...there is no way to invade a country and dig out an entrenched military force without killing civilians. I mean, what the hell...? This has nothing to do with Israel or their military's actions or suicide bombers from Palestine. OF COURSE Bush and his buds intended to kill Iraqi civilians! There was absolutley no way to invade Iraq without doing so! Hell-oooo...! They knew that all along, and they ignored international law to go in anyway. The US invasion has killed far more people than all the suicide bombings in Israel and 9/11 combined. What is your definition of "Evil" anyway? Al-Qaeda kills civilians it's evil, the US kills civilians it's not? Those people are dead either way.

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Originally Posted by windu6
I don't like Bush but this is ridiculous.
Also these so called logical examples you give are ridiculous too.
He "set out to kill the people", come on.
He f**k up by invading Iraq and he is an idiot but I don't think he is evil.
You really do hate logic, don't you?
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Originally Posted by windu6
Nancy you are wasting your time arguing with a pacifist.
The Space Navy recruiting yet?


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Old 11-11-2006, 10:30 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod

You really do hate logic, don't you?
The Space Navy recruiting yet?
What you are still mad with me because of my, If Earth was threaten with a major danger, will money determine the fate of our planet? thread.

Yeah, for Space Navy recruiting.
I wish they hurry up.
Brother getting tired of waiting.
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Old 11-11-2006, 10:34 PM   #106
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^^Not mad, just hoping you somehow grasp basic logic and grammar.


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Old 11-11-2006, 10:42 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod
^^Not mad, just hoping you somehow grasp basic logic and grammar.
I'm curious are you a pacifist too,
like Spider AL?
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Old 11-11-2006, 10:45 PM   #108
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I'm curious are you a pacifist too,
like Spider AL?
You don't have to be a pacifist to be against needless violence.



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Old 11-11-2006, 10:49 PM   #109
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WTF does that have to do with Saddam or Iraq?
Simple, I want to establish whether or not Palestine sets out to kill Jews by launching terrorist attacks against Israel.

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Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod
Hello...there is no way to invade a country and dig out an entrenched military force without killing civilians.
No ****. Maybe I wasn't clear before. Maybe you'll understand this: ****ing Bush was ****ing wrong to ****ing invade ****ing Iraq. Is that clear enough for you?

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Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod
This has nothing to do with Israel or their military's actions or suicide bombers from Palestine.
See my first comment.

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Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod
OF COURSE Bush and his buds intended to kill Iraqi civilians! There was absolutley no way to invade Iraq without doing so! Hell-oooo...!
By that logic then maybe Kosovo, Kuwait and Somalia shouldn't have had any intervention, as obviously it was the intent to kill the people there by invading and overthrowing the occupational forces there. For that matter, Vietnam probably should have been left to communisn, Korea should have been ignored and most definetly no action should have been taken against the Nazi takeover of Europe, because the intention was to kill the people who were in those countries rather than fight against Hitler.

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Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod
They knew that all along, and they ignored international law to go in anyway.
That's soooooo 2003.

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Originally Posted by Mace MacLeod
The US invasion has killed far more people than all the suicide bombings in Israel and 9/11 combined. What is your definition of "Evil" anyway? Al-Qaeda kills civilians it's evil, the US kills civilians it's not? Those people are dead either way.
Please show me one shred of evidence that shows soldiers setting out to kill civillians. Just one, I'd really like to see it. Some video or something of soldiers storming into a village and killing the population there. C'mon, just a little bit of hard evidence, just enough to show that soldiers are setting out to kill innocents or Bush had ordered killing innocents.

And you said it before so I'll say it now, enough with the insults and back on topic.
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Old 11-11-2006, 10:53 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Tyrion
You don't have to be a pacifist to be against needless violence.
Don't tell me you believe that Bush intended to wipe the Iraqi people out.
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Old 11-11-2006, 10:55 PM   #111
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Don't tell me you believe that Bush intended to wipe the Iraqi people out.
He may have not intended to commit genocide against the Iraqis, but there isn't a lot of evidence to support the notion he cared deeply for their survival.



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Old 11-11-2006, 10:55 PM   #112
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Don't tell me you believe that Bush intended to wipe the Iraqi people out.
I don't think anyone here believes that. They, including myself, believe that Bush's actions have caused the deaths of thousands of civilians in Iraq as a result of the invasion, and that he KNEW that there would be these massive numbers of civilian casualties - and decided to launch an unjustified war anyway.
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Old 11-11-2006, 11:05 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Tyrion
He may have not intended to commit genocide against the Iraqis, but there isn't a lot of evidence to support the notion he cared deeply for their survival.
Genocide, are you kidding me?
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Old 11-11-2006, 11:07 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
Simple, I want to establish whether or not Palestine sets out to kill Jews by launching terrorist attacks against Israel.
Since Israel is a Jewish state, I'm gonna say "yes."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``
By that logic then maybe Kosovo, Kuwait and Somalia shouldn't have had any intervention, as obviously it was the intent to kill the people there by invading and overthrowing the occupational forces there. For that matter, Vietnam probably should have been left to communisn, Korea should have been ignored and most definetly no action should have been taken against the Nazi takeover of Europe, because the intention was to kill the people who were in those countries rather than fight against Hitler.
If you're going to make this argument, you may find it more effective if you leave out Somalia and Vietnam. And by the way, most U.S. forces were fighting Japan during World War II. The U.S. cared about what was going on in Europe so much we turned a boatload of Jewish refugees just before the Holocaust-although if you also subscribe to the theory that the U.S, knew about Pearl Harbor several years before it happened you could make the argument that this was done so we could send troops to Europe without upsetting the general public.

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Don't tell me you believe that Bush intended to wipe the Iraqi people out.
He doesn't care enough about them to want to wipe them out. To him, I'm guessing they're nothing more than the background of a photo-op.

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Genocide, are you kidding me?
He didn't say Bush intended to commit genocide, he said Bush didn't give a damn about whether or not they died.



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Old 11-11-2006, 11:12 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Spider AL
So yes, he "set out to kill the people", in the same way that a mugger who beats people up and steals their cash "sets out to beat people up". Even if he has an ulterior motive for his violence, his violence is intentional and part of his crime.
American GIs, and I'm assuming the soldiers and sailors of any other well-trained force in any other country, do not 'set out to kill the people.' Jimbo's in the US Army, so we get to see a lot more news about what goes on there than the media decides to show on TV, and Jimbo saw a lot of soldiers coming back from Iraq (he helped them with their outgoing dental work that they all had to do). We heard not just the 'approved' stories but the US Army, but also heard individuals' stories about what's happening over there, and they don't hold back unless ordered to keep something classified. We've worked our butts off to avoid killing 'the people'. The truth is, 'the people' are killing far more of 'the people' than the Americans have.

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Originally Posted by Spider AL
lol "like vietnam".
The only way the US could ever hope to even BEGIN to repair the damage they've done to Iraq is to funnel such a HUGE amount of money into the battered nation, that it would probably ruin the US economy. Repairing Iraq isn't going to happen.
I've spoken with a number of 'Nam vets (both pro and con-Bush, so their politics don't factor into this). They uniformly and without hesitation say this war is absolutely nothing like Vietnam. Having studied the Vietnam war and Lyndon Johnson (President at the time) and having heard from current soldiers and vets, I completely agree. Different times, different attitudes, different ideologies, different geography, etc. In any case, comparison with 'Nam is irrelevent.

The US is funneling in huge amounts of money into the nation. The new bridges, rebuilt roads (rebuilt far better than what they were to start with), new schools, rebuilt and restocked hospitals, new de-salinization plants and new sewage systems and treatment plants weren't the result of spontaneous generation. However, pictures of a sewage treatment plant has been deemed by the media as "Not Exciting and/or Sexy" like pictures of exploding roadside bombs, so it doesn't get any press.

I think Bush made a big mistake invading--that decision was based on bad information (Do you think Colin Powell would have gone to the UN with that info if _he_ thought it was bad? I don't think so). However, now that we're there, we need to finish the job and not leave it to get taken over by whoever the next strongest and most cunning general happens to be.

Hussein's an Iraqi citizen, it's Iraq's job to deal with him.

@Mace--the 'space navy' and assorted related statements reminds me of the saying on a t-shirt 'Beam me up, Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here.'


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Old 11-11-2006, 11:16 PM   #116
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If you're going to make this argument, you may find it more effective if you leave out Somalia and Vietnam. And by the way, most U.S. forces were fighting Japan during World War II. The U.S. cared about what was going on in Europe so much we turned a boatload of Jewish refugees just before the Holocaust-although if you also subscribe to the theory that the U.S, knew about Pearl Harbor several years before it happened you could make the argument that this was done so we could send troops to Europe without upsetting the general public.
Yeah, that really piss me off when I heard about that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jmac7142
He doesn't care enough about them to want to wipe them out. To him, I'm guessing they're nothing more than the background of a photo-op.


He didn't say Bush intended to commit genocide, he said Bush didn't give a damn about whether or not they died.
I can't believe you believe something like this, I thought I was the only conspiracy nut here.

Last edited by windu6; 11-11-2006 at 11:29 PM.
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Old 11-11-2006, 11:25 PM   #117
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I can't believe you believe something like this, I thought I was the only conspiracy nut here.
That's not a conspiracy theory: believing Bush was trying to commit active genocide in Iraq would be a conspiracy theory. What Jmac and I are talking about are the plain-as-daylight facts that surmount to Bush giving little to no thought about the average Iraqi civilian; he never conspired for or against them.



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Old 11-11-2006, 11:29 PM   #118
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I can't believe you believe something like this, I thought I was the only conspiracy nut here.
GEORGE BUSH DOESN'T CARE ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE IRAQIS.



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Old 11-11-2006, 11:46 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmac7142
GEORGE BUSH DOESN'T CARE ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE IRAQIS.
I know that Jmac.
Well, about the BLACK PEOPLE statement.
Katrina !

I'm guessing your argument is that he only care about the oil , not the people he have to wipe out to get to it.
Well, I need some convincing evidence that Bush is that evil.
All that I know he is a idiot and a racist, which I hate extremely.
Unless I'm missing something else.
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Old 11-11-2006, 11:52 PM   #120
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I know that Jmac.
Well, about the BLACK PEOPLE statement.
Katrina !

I'm guessing your argument is that he only care about the oil , not the people he have to wipe out to get to it.
Well, I need some convincing evidence that Bush is that evil.
All that I know he is a idiot and a racist, which I hate extremely.
Unless I'm missing something else.
Ugh. What we're all saying is that George Bush didn't care enough to try and minimize civilian casualties in Iraq. We're not saying he actively tried to kill Iraqi people.



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