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View Poll Results: Is any use of logical reasoning inherently flawed, because of Quantum Mechanics?
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Old 11-07-2006, 01:28 PM   #1
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Question Quantum logic, is any use of logical reasoning inherently flawed?

I pose this question, because I was reading a article about Quantum Logic.
That article explains that any use of classical logic should be suspected because Quantum Mechanics is not taken into account.
Quantum Mechanics: The branch of quantum physics that accounts for matter at the atomic level; that to understand the physics at that level one will have to use the Mathematics of Probability Theory and Statistics.

In my opinion I have the suspected belief, that because our consciousness as all matter in our local universe, functions on the physical laws of Quantum Mechanics.

That maybe all logical reasoning maybe inherently flawed, to a degree.
The so called, uncertainty principle asserts that it is impossible to measure both energy and time (or position and momentum) completely accurately at the same time, with infinite precision.
So any interpertation of data by our minds through any logical process will have to be suspected.
Also it can be best explained by way of the so called Copenhagen interpretation.

The interpretation, that if the wavefunction merely encodes an observer's knowledge of the universe then the wavefunction collapse corresponds to the receipt of new information.
Quantum mechanics provides probabilistic results because the physical universe is itself probabilistic rather than deterministic.
This process is known well to physictists in the world, as the wavefunction collapse.
The belief is that our consciousness causes the collapse, that inturn influence the logical reasoning process, so it spoils logic to a degree.

So, if we measure an observable or reason something, the wavefunction, will instantaneously be an influence structure of that observable, so it will bias objective reasoning.
The truth-values of the quantum logic system of reasoning will have 3 values instead of the 2 of classical logic.
The truth-values of quantum logic: true, false or indeterminate.
Indeterminate value will possibly come into conflict with classical logic, Law of the excluded middle, because the result must either be true or false.
A Indeterminate value will possibly give both true and false values at the same time.

The wavefunction is a physics concept, that is a mathematical equation in quantum mechanics, that represents the space and time variations in amplitude for a wave system.
And the eigenstate is a quantum state that is left unchanged after an observation corresponding to a particular operator(entity that represents or performs a mathematical operation).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_logic
But I am assuming nobody here don't trust that source.
It is accurate about the topic of Quantum Logic.
So, make your own choice of clicking the link.
Another link linked to the topic. Is logic empirical

Last edited by windu6; 11-17-2006 at 08:39 AM.
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Old 11-07-2006, 01:41 PM   #2
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Please post a link to this article, because what you have posted here has leaps all over the place.

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Old 11-08-2006, 12:44 AM   #3
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The limit in reasoning is at a far higher/more macro level than quantum mechanics, it's limited by brain anatomy and physiology, biochemistry, and electrophysiology.


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Old 11-08-2006, 12:55 AM   #4
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I don't see how another form of mathematics should make logical reasoning flawed. My answer is no.


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Old 11-08-2006, 04:35 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
I don't see how another form of mathematics should make logical reasoning flawed. My answer is no.
Quantum Mechanics is not another form of mathematics, Devon.
It's physics not math.
So it probably will apply throughout this universe at least.
There is still the infinite universes in existence left to understand.

Last edited by windu6; 11-08-2006 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 11-08-2006, 09:17 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
Quantum Mechanics is not another form of mathematics, Devon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
In mathematical physics and quantum mechanics, quantum logic is an operator algebraic system for constructing and manipulating logical combinations of quantum mechanical events.
Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
It's physics not math.
Physics is based on math.

If you wouldn't mind, I'd like a more earthly explanation. "Infinite universes" sounds as vague as the supernatural. Given our current knowledge of this universe, it I find it unlikelly that we could apply one type of math to it, let alone any alternate ones (in the unlikely event they exist).


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Old 11-09-2006, 03:41 AM   #7
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Physics is totally not based on math. Like in all the other branches of science, math is used to find equations/solutions to describe physical processes.

And I find I unlikely that if you have 1 and add another 1 to it there wouldn't be 2 or that logic itself will be different.


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Old 11-09-2006, 04:00 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Physics is based on math.
You got it completely wrong, Devon.
Math is a tool of physics not the other way around.
Math is just a tool.

Physics explains the universe by understanding how all the matter and energy interact.
Physicists uses math as a tool to understand the universe precisely as possible with the current available mathematics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
If you wouldn't mind, I'd like a more earthly explanation. "Infinite universes" sounds as vague as the supernatural. Given our current knowledge of this universe, it I find it unlikelly that we could apply one type of math to it, let alone any alternate ones (in the unlikely event they exist).
There are infinite universes out there.
This is not supernatural it's science.
Because of String Theory and the so called Many-worlds hypothesis of Quantum Mechanics.
Physicists are accepting the possibility of other universes.
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Old 11-09-2006, 02:04 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
Physicists are accepting the possibility of other universes.
That's terrific, but in the meantime, we've been beamed down to this planet in this specific universe, so I'd like to work on this one first before taking on the project of dealing with another universe.

How does quantum mechanics have a bearing on logic if it's already affected to a much greater degree by anatomy and physiology of the brain? That's like saying a single raindrop has a major effect on something while in the middle of a major hurricane.


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Old 11-09-2006, 05:21 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
That's terrific, but in the meantime, we've been beamed down to this planet in this specific universe, so I'd like to work on this one first before taking on the project of dealing with another universe.

How does quantum mechanics have a bearing on logic if it's already affected to a much greater degree by anatomy and physiology of the brain? That's like saying a single raindrop has a major effect on something while in the middle of a major hurricane.
Why are you asking me this, Jae?
This is not my theory.
I'm not the one pushing for the abandonment of any use of logic.
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Old 11-09-2006, 11:51 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
You got it completely wrong, Devon.
Math is a tool of physics not the other way around.
Math is just a tool.
Say what you will. Without math, there can't even be physics. I think that's enough to consider it a basis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
Physics explains the universe by understanding how all the matter and energy interact. Physicists uses math as a tool to understand the universe precisely as possible with the current available mathematics.
And to go back to your original point, how is that your ideas negate the use of logic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
There are infinite universes out there.
That and the link you provided are too vague for my liking. Given how we don't even fully understand our current universe, I think being able to profess knowledge of other ones is ridiculous to the extreme. It's like apes trying to predict how many miles long the Milky Way is.


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Old 11-10-2006, 12:53 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
Why are you asking me this, Jae?
This is not my theory.
I'm not the one pushing for the abandonment of any use of logic.
It may not be your theory, but since you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
In my opinion I have the suspected belief, that because our consciousness as all matter in our local universe, functions on the physical laws of Quantum Mechanics.
your opinion is thus open for discussion/debate.

I'm arguing that quantum mechanics are a drop in the bucket of consciousness, logic, and other brain function because physiology has a much greater bearing on all of these than quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics therefore cannot be making much of a difference at all, if any.


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Old 11-10-2006, 04:37 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Say what you will. Without math, there can't even be physics. I think that's enough to consider it a basis.
Math is just tool, use to quantify physical interactions of matter and energy.
Without math we won't know how to build the technology we have today as of the result of the science of physics. Because we won't have the accurate values of matter and energy interactions to properly use physics in applications in our society.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
And to go back to your original point, how is that your ideas negate the use of logic?
As I will say again this isn't my theory.
The reason I have the suspected belief because I believe absolutely nothing is impossible, so it might be a possibility.
In my very own opinion.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
That and the link you provided are too vague for my liking. Given how we don't even fully understand our current universe, I think being able to profess knowledge of other ones is ridiculous to the extreme. It's like apes trying to predict how many miles long the Milky Way is.
Well, I'm sorry Devon.
But I like to think in terms of infinity.
Even if you or nobody else don't.

Last edited by windu6; 11-10-2006 at 05:05 AM.
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Old 11-10-2006, 04:57 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
your opinion is thus open for discussion/debate.

I'm arguing that quantum mechanics are a drop in the bucket of consciousness, logic, and other brain function because physiology has a much greater bearing on all of these than quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics therefore cannot be making much of a difference at all, if any.
I partially agree with you about human physiology, Jae.
Yes our physiology can be a limiting aspect in the use of logic as anything else that is limited for a human to accomplish because of our organic processes and biological functions.
But quantum mechanics is the determining factor for how all our minds functions.
Because our mind and thoughts functions by the physics of electromagnetism, which is subjected to the physics of quantum mechanics of the atoms and electrons that transmit the information entropy(a thermodynamic quantity representing the amount of energy in a system that is no longer available for doing mechanical work) in our neurons.

Last edited by windu6; 11-10-2006 at 07:46 AM.
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Old 11-10-2006, 09:18 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
Because our mind and thoughts functions by the physics of electromagnetism, which is subjected to the physics of quantum mechanics of the atoms and electrons that transmit the information entropy(a thermodynamic quantity representing the amount of energy in a system that is no longer available for doing mechanical work) in our neurons.
The nerves do transmit information electically down the dendrites and out the axons, and I'm not debating whether or not there's electrical activity going on, because there obviously is. However, that activity is governed by things like opening and closing of sodium and calcium channels, the amount of myelin on the nerve (or lack thereof), axon length and amount of dendrite branching, amounts of neurotransmitters, and a number of other things that are greater in scope than what's happening at the quantum level.


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Old 11-10-2006, 09:39 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
The nerves do transmit information electically down the dentrites and out the axons, and I'm not debating whether or not there's electrical activity going on, because there obviously is. However, that activity is governed by things like opening and closing of sodium and calcium channels, the amount of myelin on the nerve (or lack thereof), axon length and amount of dendrite branching, amounts of neurotransmitters, and a number of other things that are greater in scope than what's happening at the quantum level.
Thanks for re-educating me on how the brain transmit thoughts, Jae
I'm not being sarcastic here.
I just study mathematics and physics so often that I forget about neuroscience and other scientific topics sometimes.

Here is a short article, Jae about neuroscience that explains a theory called Quantum brain dynamics.
The article discusses a theory to explain the function of the brain with quantum mechanics.
This is a physics paper called Founding quantum theory on the basis of consciousness.
I already know you don't trust science papers that haven't been accepted yet.
But you should read those papers because they may have something very interesting in them, Jae.

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Old 11-11-2006, 04:54 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
Yes our physiology can be a limiting aspect in the use of logic as anything else that is limited for a human to accomplish because of our organic processes and biological functions.
Basically we are not trained very well in imaginating things different from the world we are used to. More-than-three-dimensional rooms are a hard thing to visualise, if you don't actually live in one. So, the limitations of our mental capacity are *not* of physiological nature in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
However, that activity is governed by things like opening and closing of sodium and calcium channels, the amount of myelin on the nerve (or lack thereof), axon length and amount of dendrite branching, amounts of neurotransmitters, and a number of other things that are greater in scope than what's happening at the quantum level.
I would not necessarily limit that "greater scope" to brain thingers only.. ;]


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Old 11-11-2006, 12:41 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones
Basically we are not trained very well in imaginating things different from the world we are used to. More-than-three-dimensional rooms are a hard thing to visualise, if you don't actually live in one. So, the limitations of our mental capacity are *not* of physiological nature in the first place.
Yes, I know that Ray.
The physical three dimensions of our local universe.

And also because of Matrix Theory(M-Theory) the 10 dimensions of space.
Where the 10-D is what strings need to oscillate properly to determine what Elementary particles
and the 4 forces of the universe, specific strings will be.
Open strings vibration modes can be identified as the graviton and Close strings
vibrational modes can be identified as: elementary particles, the strong nuclear force(the interaction that binds protons and neutrons together in the nuclei of atoms), weak nuclear force(responsible for certain kinds of radioactive decay) and electromagnetism.

I can possibly imagine 4-D of space:
If you live in four dimensions of space, from your perspective you will see the back the front and all sides of a three dimensional object at the same time.
But I have a hard time imagining 10-D space.

But String Theory is still a theory so we will have to see if it is true.

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Old 11-12-2006, 06:18 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones
I would not necessarily limit that "greater scope" to brain thingers only.. ;]
No, it's not, but we're limited to 10k characters (and the reader's attention span) per post so I thought I'd keep it brief.
I doubt many here want to read reams on brain anatomy and physiology.


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Old 11-13-2006, 01:41 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
I doubt many here want to read reams on brain anatomy and physiology.
I don't mind a refresher course on neuroscience, brain anatomy and physiology, Jae.
I don't back out on chance to learn about scientific topics.
But the mods might come in and say it will be off topic.
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Old 12-10-2006, 02:40 PM   #21
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That is a paradox because Quantum theory was discovered through logical reasoning, if logical reasoning is flawed so is Quantum theory and if Quantum theory is flawed logical reasoning may not be...






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Old 12-10-2006, 09:35 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jon_hill987
That is a paradox because Quantum theory was discovered through logical reasoning, if logical reasoning is flawed so is Quantum theory and if Quantum theory is flawed logical reasoning may not be...
I'm not sure it would even matter. If it works, it works, and it can be used. It's not like you can prove the axioms you base your logic on anyway.


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Old 12-25-2006, 04:57 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by jon_hill987
That is a paradox because Quantum theory was discovered through logical reasoning, if logical reasoning is flawed so is Quantum theory and if Quantum theory is flawed logical reasoning may not be...
Well, with our universe being so strange with each new discovery about it's nature and the rest existence probably having even weirder characteristics,
paradoxes are probably the norm, Jon.
Also if there are infinite universes, the concept of infinity will always have contradictions; since all possibilities will happen in a infinite existence.
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Old 12-25-2006, 08:11 PM   #24
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If there are infinite universes then it is concievable that everything that can occur will. However, those universes don't have to have the same fundamental values. Gravity could be a stronger effect in one and not in another, etc. That doesn't mean they are contradictory. It just means they are different and have different laws governing them. That's why they're called "other universes."


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Old 12-26-2006, 12:26 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
If there are infinite universes then it is concievable that everything that can occur will. However, those universes don't have to have the same fundamental values. Gravity could be a stronger effect in one and not in another, etc. That doesn't mean they are contradictory. It just means they are different and have different laws governing them. That's why they're called "other universes."
You are only considering a very, very small part of what I mean by infinite possibilities; with M Theory(Matrix Theory) spacial dimenisons lower then three maybe a physical reality; a contradiction from our common sense(or experience) of reality; many people think the concept of D<3 as a paradox to common experience of our 3-D universe.
Another example arithmetic operations like 3+3=6 in our universe, but in another universe 3+3=9 or 1+1=5 in which I mean mathematics might be set by the greater level of supreme beings in all of existence for every specific universe; that for any number n, n+n+3=p; if n=1 n+n+3=5 as above, this will always be the result in that specific universe.
So if you put up two fingers to signify the arithmetic operation of 1+1=2 in that strange universe of variable mathematics, three fingers will appear to signify the sum as 5.
An obvious contadiction and completely illogical to what the axioms of arithmetic says in our universe.
Strange, but that is what I mean by, ''all possibilities happen''.
Samuel!

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Old 12-26-2006, 02:51 AM   #26
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That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard presented. If you hold up two fingers and three ADDITIONAL fingers just appear out of nowhere?
If you're going to follow that to it's conclusion, there must be some universe where 1+1 is equal to infinity, so if you hold up two fingers an infinite number of fingers also show up. This obviously would then end up destroying that universe in a terrible flurry of eye-poking.

There is almost no way I could be convinced that there exists some reality where if you take one of something, and get one more of it, you have anything other than two of that something. If there are more than two, then you obviously got more than one more.



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Old 12-26-2006, 05:10 AM   #27
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That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard presented. If you hold up two fingers and three ADDITIONAL fingers just appear out of nowhere?
If you're going to follow that to it's conclusion, there must be some universe where 1+1 is equal to infinity, so if you hold up two fingers an infinite number of fingers also show up. This obviously would then end up destroying that universe in a terrible flurry of eye-poking.
That is exactly what I mean, by illogical and contradictory; when all possibilities happen, ET.
See, it is extremely hard for you to imagine such a reality with your strict navigation of logic and rationality.
Also there is no conclusion if infinity is involved in the argument.
There is no conclusion to be reach.
Well, that is our society's definition of the concept of infinity.
And theory of the big bang or big smack(M Theory; n-dimensional brane collision for the creation of our universe), the idea of infinite parallel universes of Matrix Theory is ridiculous also; infinite universes imply there was no beginning to existence.
So, the most strongest theory of physics for unification of the strong, weak, electromagnetic and the elusive gravity interaction have ridiculous unification physics, philosophical and illogical implications.
But there are less weirder theories about the unification of the four forces of our local universe, unless there are more forces.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
There is almost no way I could be convinced that there exists some reality where if you take one of something, and get one more of it, you have anything other than two of that something. If there are more than two, then you obviously got more than one more.
But all of existence maybe is that weird, ET,
just my suspected belief.
Continuously being filled or infinitely filled(whatever the hell that translate into) with ridiculousness and illogical characteristics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET Warrior
so if you hold up two fingers an infinite number of fingers also show up. This obviously would then end up destroying that universe in a terrible flurry of eye-poking
The very idea of infinite number of fingers will destrory our universe too, also this is very fascinating; the idea of creation(I mean creation of anything in our universe, not biblical) of anything is partially absurd too; if anybody bound theirself to the idea of creation their reasoning according to logic is illogical; you have to continuously and endlessly explain every n creator and the result of every n creation.

Specific questions like:

Who created God and who created every n Gods; the idea of a beginning is adsurd if our current finite logical postulates is followed, this seem to be evidence that logic maybe is flawed.
Where do time come from; the idea of something creating time, without time of itself is adsurd, well adsurd base on the laws of physics from our perspective universe.
All motion(kinetic energy) with all matter and energy interactions that will have half potential energy also, have to time already active; the very idea of something creating something with no time is illogical and the laws of our perspective universal physics break down.
Like for example if time is = 0 in displacement/time then the velocity is infinite.
When one play with 0 in mathematical formulas all math fail and in turn all physics calculations fails.
That is why Issac Newton and Gottfried Leibniz had to develop the concept of limits of mathematical functions to describe motion with the derivative; the expression of rate of change.
df/dx: derivative of some function respect to x, x=/0; cannot equal zero x~0 must become infinitely close or infinitesimally(infinitely small quantities) close to zero; 0<x<1; x=/ negative number; which will be the case if x<0

I can go on giving examples but this post will have a never ending message, because there are all possible examples to show.
Ridiculous, but still very fascinating!

Last edited by windu6; 12-26-2006 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 12-26-2006, 09:58 PM   #28
Samuel Dravis
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windu6
You are only considering a very, very small part of what I mean by infinite possibilities; with M Theory(Matrix Theory) spacial dimenisons lower then three maybe a physical reality; a contradiction from our common sense(or experience) of reality; many people think the concept of D<3 as a paradox to common experience of our 3-D universe.
Another example arithmetic operations like 3+3=6 in our universe, but in another universe 3+3=9 or 1+1=5 in which I mean mathematics might be set by the greater level of supreme beings in all of existence for every specific universe; that for any number n, n+n+3=p; if n=1 n+n+3=5 as above, this will always be the result in that specific universe.
So if you put up two fingers to signify the arithmetic operation of 1+1=2 in that strange universe of variable mathematics, three fingers will appear to signify the sum as 5.
An obvious contadiction and completely illogical to what the axioms of arithmetic says in our universe.
Strange, but that is what I mean by, ''all possibilities happen''.
Samuel!
That doesn't seem particularly illogical to me. Let me show you. These numbers all have the same meaning:

1000100
2112
1010
233
152
125
104
75
68 (base 10, normally used)
62
58
53

They're just using different number bases (2 through 14). The logic used to make them is consistent. It's just different than we're used to. The type of thing you seem to be thinking of is that these things are illogical to us; but that seems only true if we tried to use the same things we commonly use now on something it doesn't apply to. I'm sure that any such "paradox" that comes up is not really one in its own context.


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