Why are some people gay?

[Spider AL]

I think I've grasped what you're saying quite well, actually Nancy.

He made a choice to seek out these experiances with other men based on what he found. How many ways does it have to be said?

Doomie is correct, this is where you've made something of an error. You're confusing homosexual ACTS (actual sex) with homosexuality and homosexual urges. (A desire to engage in homosexual acts.)

In your little story, the teenager suddenly discovered that he found other men attractive. And THEN he went out and had sex with other men. But he didn't CHOOSE to be attracted to other men, he merely FOUND that he was attracted to other men.

So his homosexuality wasn't a choice. The fact that he chose to have sex with the men he did, isn't relevant to whether "homosexuality is a choice". Do you see the distinction I'm trying to draw?

[Nancy Allen``]

How does one define sexual preferrence and whether or not it's a choice? I'll use something that had been discovered when fighting child porn as an example. A friend of mine used to fight it and one of the things he said that would happen was that people would get into fighting it, not having seen any of the material but are rightfully outraged at the idea. Then they start fighting child porn, they see it when they find people dealing in it, ect, and they find that they actually get turned on by it. Would this mean that there's any number of potential pedophiles who don't even know it out there?

[Spider AL]

Theoretically, I suppose there could be loads of potential paedophiles, as well as potential furries, plushies, sports-bag fetishists... I don't see that this is relevant to the question at hand, however.

As stated before, there is a distinction between sexual urges and sexual acts. It's a fairly clear distinction. Do you agree?

[Nancy Allen``]

Can you prove that it isn't a matter of choice?

[Spider AL]

I can offer plenty of evidence to suggest that it isn't a matter of conscious choice. Two points for starters:

1. There are many homosexual people who don't want to be homosexual.
2. Homosexuality develops like any other sexual preference. Did I choose to be heterosexual?... Nope, I just... was. Homosexual people say the same thing, therefore sexual preference is not- as a rule- a matter of conscious choice.

But of course the list is endless. What evidence do YOU have to suggest that it IS a matter of choosing to be gay?

[Nancy Allen``]

You give me at least three web sites that prove inconclusively that it isn't a matter of choice and I'll put up my evidence. Until then you're wrong.

[Spider AL]

How can I be "wrong" when you haven't posted a shred of evidence to support YOUR claim, or to refute my arguments? That's madness! No, until YOU post your evidence, you are the only one who could possibly be wrong.

Plus, to "prove inconclusively" is not what you meant, I think. Perhaps you meant "prove conclusively"? In which case, what would you accept as conclusive proof? I must know that before I consider attempting to prove it to you.

Still, in the meantime, I shall give you one interesting report:

American Academy of Pediatrics report on Homosexuality

In the fourth paragraph, they agree with me.

[Nancy Allen``]

There is no point in challenging hypocrits unless you can really demonstrate their hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is about self-deceipt, and little good will come out of forcing people to face unpleasant truths about themselves.

With that said, this proves nothing. You have failed to convince me that homosexuality is not a matter of choice.

[Spider AL]

Ah, now you're implying that I'm a hypocrite? How odd.

As for whether I've failed to convince you or not... That's not really relevant, since I've adequately demonstrated that your comments are based on zero evidence, and in fact directly contradict the available evidence. Very nice debating with you.

[Prime]

Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``

Obviously you are incapeable of understanding. Either that or you're trolling, one of the two.

Al is in no way trolling, so please refrain from suggesting that he is. He had clearly responded to your question.

Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``

You give me at least three web sites that prove inconclusively that it isn't a matter of choice and I'll put up my evidence. Until then you're wrong.

Wouldn't it be better to provide evidence to back up your claims? Then people can debate that evidence. Simply saying "you're wrong" doesn't advance the discussion any. If he is wrong, provide evidence that shows that.

Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``

How does one define sexual preferrence and whether or not it's a choice? I'll use something that had been discovered when fighting child porn as an example. A friend of mine used to fight it and one of the things he said that would happen was that people would get into fighting it, not having seen any of the material but are rightfully outraged at the idea. Then they start fighting child porn, they see it when they find people dealing in it, ect, and they find that they actually get turned on by it. Would this mean that there's any number of potential pedophiles who don't even know it out there?

That would mean there are potential pedophiles out there. I'm not sure what you are trying to show here. If anything, it supports Al's position. Such a person went in against pedophiles, but they found they enjoyed the concept. They didn't choose to enjoy it. Clearly their rational mind told them it was wrong. The only choice is whether they commited the acts afterwards.

[Nancy Allen``]

Another example, hatred of men. Something like this could make a woman decide to seek comfort in the arms of a member of the same sex.

What about something like Atheism? Now the nonbelief of religion is not a genetic thing is it? People see things like Christians bombing abortion clinics (and since it's the topic, condemning gays), Muslims preaching hatred and terrorism, Scientologists trying to destroy those who disagree or criticise them. Seeing these things would, and have, made people go 'stuff the lot of'em' and chosen to believe in no religion. Much the same applies to how some approach homosexuality.

[ET Warrior]

Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``

Another example, hatred of men. Something like this could make a woman decide to seek comfort in the arms of a member of the same sex.

This argument irrelevant unless you intend to argue that every single homosexual person is actually a woman who hates men. Just because SOME people have made a choice for their sexuality doesn't mean you are allowed to lump everyone into the same group.

Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``

What about something like Atheism?

Complete non-sequitor. The two are not related at all.

[Nancy Allen``]

Originally Posted by ET Warrior

This argument irrelevant unless you intend to argue that every single homosexual person is actually a woman who hates men. Just because SOME people have made a choice for their sexuality doesn't mean you are allowed to lump everyone into the same group.

Would it be equally as fallacious to say that because some believe that it's genetic homosexuality cannot be a choice? Unfortunetly you cannot have it both ways, you cannot say it's wrong to say it's a choice full stop and it's right to say there is no choice full stop. What I'm arguing is that women, some women (actually only a small percentage to be fair) would turn to homosexuality because of men, it was their choice.

Originally Posted by ET Warrior

Complete non-sequitor. The two are not related at all.

Actually the same as people may choose to be Atheist based on what they've seen and what they experiance someone would choose to practice homosexuality based on what they see and what they experiance, so they would be related.

[Vaelastraz]

Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``

Actually the same as people may choose to be Atheist based on what they've seen and what they experiance someone would choose to practice homosexuality based on what they see and what they experiance, so they would be related.

Are you also saying that eating behavior is related to homosexuality too? From what I've seen and what I've experienced I choose to "practise" vegetarianism.

I think it's odd to claim that homosexuality is a choice. It may be a choice to actually declare yourself homosexual and to accept it, but I don't think you can help it if you're attracted to the same sex.

[Nancy Allen``]

That's actually part of the problem I think, I'm probably thinking more along the lines of homosexual activity, coming out of the closet, that sort of thing. What causes it in the first place? ****ed if I know.

[Spider AL]

Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``

Would it be equally as fallacious to say that because some believe that it's genetic homosexuality cannot be a choice? Unfortunetly you cannot have it both ways, you cannot say it's wrong to say it's a choice full stop and it's right to say there is no choice full stop.

Nancy... Who has said "there is no choice full stop"? Who has said this?

I've not said it. ET hasn't said it. Vael hasn't said it. So please, stop propping up the straw-men everywhere. The fact is that the available evidence suggests that homosexuality, like EVERY sexual preference, is partly nature, and partly nurture. The evidence does NOT suggest that it is a "matter of conscious choice".

If you want to ignore the evidence, fine. But be honest about it.

As regards your tangent on atheism, ET is correct, it's a total non-sequitur. Utterly irrelevant, utterly random.

As regards your contention that some women who hate men just BECOME homosexual, I don't think it holds water. No matter how badly I've been treated by women in the past, I've never started to find Tom Selleck attractive. Honest.

So it follows that those women who become lesbians after being badly treated by men ALREADY had some degree of innate bi-sexuality that meant they were CAPABLE of finding members of their own gender attractive.

Finally, even if you were to find a totally straight woman who suddenly became a lesbian after being in an abusive relationship with a man... That surely would be classified as a conditioned sexual preference, and therefore not a matter of conscious choice.

Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``

I'm probably thinking more along the lines of homosexual activity, coming out of the closet, that sort of thing. What causes it in the first place?

"Why do gay people come out of the closet?" isn't the topic of this thread. "Why do gay people actually have sex with each other?" isn't the topic of this thread.

And with all due respect... neither of those questions is interesting at all, and both of those questions have obvious answers.

[Prime]

Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``

Would it be equally as fallacious to say that because some believe that it's genetic homosexuality cannot be a choice?

Since your genetics are predetermined, how can it be a choice? Did you choose to have the genetics you have? Did you choose to be tall or short? Did you choose to like one food but not another? Do you decide who you find physically attractive? Why must it a choice for gays in these scenarios but not for straight people?

Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``

Unfortunetly you cannot have it both ways, you cannot say it's wrong to say it's a choice full stop and it's right to say there is no choice full stop.

But it isn't having in both ways. There is one way. To support your argument, you need to show that being genetically predisposed to enjoy something is a choice of the idividual.

Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``

What I'm arguing is that women, some women (actually only a small percentage to be fair) would turn to homosexuality because of men, it was their choice.

They choice was to perform a homosexual act in that case, not to all of a sudden be physically attracted to members of the same sex.

Originally Posted by Spider AL

So it follows that those women who become lesbians after being badly treated by men ALREADY had some degree of innate bi-sexuality that meant they were CAPABLE of finding members of their own gender attractive.

Or, they make the choice to ignore their physical attractions to members of the opposite sex.

In any event, the argument is against the claim that all homosexual feelings by nature are a decision made by each individual.

[Nancy Allen``]

As I said I was probably thinking more homosexual activity. So, am I going to be put on trial for thinking that? Should I consult a lawyer for daring to suggest homosexuality is a matter of choice?

[ET Warrior]

You are in a debate forum, Nancy. People are going to debate with you when they believe you are stating things that are not correct.

In addition, the thread is not about "why do homosexual people act like homosexual people". The threads purpose is to debate why people are homosexual in the first place.

[Nancy Allen``]

And pick fights every chance you can, natrually. Lie, cheat, steal, the objective is to win by any means nessecary.

[ET Warrior]

Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``

And pick fights every chance you can, natrually. Lie, cheat, steal, the objective is to win by any means nessecary.

Honestly, the only person in this thread who seems interested in picking fights is you. As regards lying, cheating, or stealing...I'm not sure what to say. I've seen none of the above.

[Nancy Allen``]

Back on topic, why are some people gay? I really have no idea. Homosexual activity, it's a choice, but attraction to the same sex? I looked it up and the reasons given are a guess at best.

[Prime]

Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``

And pick fights every chance you can, natrually. Lie, cheat, steal, the objective is to win by any means nessecary.

What statements here are you refering to?

[Nancy Allen``]

In the Senate? I've started reporting posts that go against the rules, a browse through the locked threads should give some insight. Specific posts, well it'd be wrong for me to point them out here but below are a few tactics used. And yes, these are ones I use myself.

Coming into a new thread that has an opinion that you disagree with, so you pretend to agree with it while portraying it in the worst way. Example: Should Revan be tried and executed, say yes hunt him down and kill him and all those who were with him, let the galaxy burn.

A string of posts that are intended to lead your target to a fallacy. Example: in a topic on the space program for example, try and structure your posts so that your target will reply with a fallacy, ie: NASA spent billions to kill the Columbian astronauts.

A variation of the above technique, structuring a post to provoke a reply, hopefully a negative one. Example: Americans have no right to complain when terrorists kill them because of their occupation in other countries.

Making rules for yourself and other rules for everyone else. Example: "It's Ad Hominem to say that this comment is sick because it implys this person is sick" then when being accused of Ad Hominem claim it isn't.


General note--this would be an excellent discussion to take to PMs with the moderators to avoid derailing the thread. --Jae

[Revan435]

dude....has anyone noticed how ugly lesibians are? omfg i can barely look at them...i bet they couldnt get anything so tehy changed? eh? eh? ehhhhh? try that one on...yea think about that for a sec? ugly chicks=lesbians its true proven scitenfic fact...no doubt, dude im not even joking 4 real serious ugly chicks r lesibians cause they cant get dick at least the ones that arent born with it...thats the reason

[urluckyday]

Lol, sorry, I think this subject is a little to sensitive for my abrasive comments that I won't get involved at all...you'll thank me in the end.

[Stream]

I can't even think how I stumbled upon this now but to be honest I can't believe this thread actually exists - does it really matter why people are gay? It's up to them what they do in their private lives - to ask a question like this you might as well have another one asking why people are straight, it's the same thing.

[igyman]

Originally Posted by Revan435

ugly chicks=lesbians its true proven scitenfic fact...

Ummm... while I agree that there are cases like those, I can't support your claim as an absolute truth because I've had a chance to see that it's not a universal rule (nope, I'm not referring to porn, or anything even remotely similar. Actually, what the heck, a few months back I went out with some friends to a club and at some point in the crowd of dancing people I noticed two pretty good looking girls making out. Go figure.)

Originally Posted by Deadly Stream

to ask a question like this you might as well have another one asking why people are straight, it's the same thing.

Well, it's not the same. One answer to your question of why people are straight is that otherwise we wouldn't be here today. However, there is no answer to the question of this thread that everyone in the world can accept. It's a complicated matter to some, simple to others, which is why we're supposed to exchange our opinions here.

[Stream]

I guess you're right, my main gripe was really the options of the poll, instead of none of the above why couldn't it have been something like it's not their fault. Anyway point taken and to be honest I just never thought I'd see a thread like this anywhere let alone here.

--Stream

[Heavyarms]

My answer to the question is I don't know because I'm not gay and I can't specify. I'm straight because that is what I'm physically attracted, and also because I choose to. I imagine it is the same for homosexuals, but I cannot presume to speak for them.

[Jae Onasi]

Originally Posted by Deadly Stream

I guess you're right, my main gripe was really the options of the poll, instead of none of the above why couldn't it have been something like it's not their fault. Anyway point taken and to be honest I just never thought I'd see a thread like this anywhere let alone here.

--Stream

It's a controversial topic, and controversial topics are fair game, particularly in this forum. Not everyone views homosexuality in the same way, hence the thread.

[Rev7]

I voted 'by choice'. That is what I think. Evidence that made me choose this:

spoiler:

Our bodies were not physically made for the same sex!

Or at least that is what I believe.

[Ray Jones]

But your hand is made to err.. ??

[DeadYorick]

I personally believe that homosexuals are born gay and its not a choice for them. If it was then there would be less gay people. Anyway People are born Hetero and Gay and there is no way around it.

[Totenkopf]

It might perhaps be more fair to say that not all homosexual activity can be rationalized away as inate. Sexual "experimentation" is clearly a choice.

[PoiuyWired]

Sexual "experimentation" is not really considered gay though.

Its like, you are not a smoker if you just smoke a cigarette... and not a wow gamer if you only played WoW for a couple of days thru some free trial.

So please, don't bring Sexual "experimentation" into the picture. Someone can be completely straight and decide to do a Sexual "experimentation" for curiosity's sake, or "experimentation" of any kind for that matter.

[Totenkopf]

Regardless, sexual experimentation includes homosexual activity. And considered by whom? Besides, if I murder you tomorrow, I'm considered a murderer for the remainder of my life. How's that really any different? (please avoid the oh so obvious sex doesn't equal killing style response).

[El Sitherino]

Originally Posted by Totenkopf

Regardless, sexual experimentation includes homosexual activity. And considered by whom? Besides, if I murder you tomorrow, I'm considered a murderer for the remainder of my life. How's that really any different? (please avoid the oh so obvious sex doesn't equal killing style response).

Apples and oranges. You murdered someone, therefore the application of the term "Murderer" fits and is logically sound. Sexual experimentation can apply to any sexual activity. Never had sex? Getting a little curious and noticing your body reacting to that certain someone in class? Technically sexual experimentation. However people only seem to label that when it comes to trying out something with the same sex.


Why are people gay? Because they are, just like some people are lactose intolerant.

[Ray Jones]

That one day I thought "apples do look so much tastier than oranges", and the zucchini agreed.

[Totenkopf]

apples and oranges = murder and homoseual activity aren't the same. Nobody said they were the same, just as Ray and Sithy aren't the same either regardless of what they might have in common. You might have been better off taking the tack that one act of anything doesn't axiomatically make you that (ie murderer, thief, homosexual, saint...). The other position comes across as nothing more than a convenient 2x standard. However, experimentation implies a choice (or at least the illusion thereof) versus going lock step with your "programming" (ie in your genes).

As to that last statement....then I guess one should just say that bullies are bullies b/c that's what they are, just like some people are albinos.