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Old 02-14-2007, 07:58 PM   #1
Darth Savath
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KOTOR 3 Jedi list

I see alot of people naming off characters they wish to appear in KOTOR 3 as Jedi, such as

Atton Rand
Brianna
Mical
Bao-Dur
Mira

I really hope they don't all appear as Jedi in the game.

It was nice that they gave the option of making almost everyone in KOTOR 2 a Jedi for all the Jedi lovers out there. But it kinda bothered me how easy it is for people to become Jedi in KOTOR 2. I mean, what ever happened to the years of dedicated training? And it seems like they threw the whole YOUNG padawan idea right out the window.

Its a little dumb that every person you run into has the potential to be a Jedi at a late age. Especially considering the big deal they made about it with Revan and Vader; and with Revan and Exile, there was the exception that they were already trained as Jedi before.

Now I understand that the Jedi had just survived a massive purge during KOTOR 2, and there will be a need to create a new council of Jedi. But that doesn't mean they should just grasp for any force sensitive character and make them an elite Jedi. That will just strip the uniqueness of the individual characters, and make the Jedi seem less exclusive than ever. I mean hey, if you can just pick up any scoundrel off the street and make them a Jedi, whats so great about the Jedi?

Bindo, Bastila, Juhani, Visas, and possibly Brianna (She seemed to have previous training by Atris) are enough Jedi from the list of playable characters from the last games. And not all of those Jedi are council material considering their dabbles with the dark side IMO.

KOTOR 3 should be able to muster up some new Jedi to fill the necessary roles. The established characters already have unique traits and qualities of their own, not everyone has to wield a light saber.

Anyways, thoughts?
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Old 02-15-2007, 12:15 AM   #2
Ragnerok
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I totally agree. Atton is a better character as a Jedi, but he's cooler as a scoundrel. I think Brianna should be a Jedi though, as she has Force Sensitive blood and is the main love focus of KOTOR2
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Old 02-15-2007, 02:50 AM   #3
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It is one of the reasons why Kotor II could have been better but isn't.
In Kotor I, your goal to talk to each party member was to get a subquest while in Kotor II you could improve your own status (which is very good) or to turn them into a Jedi (which was poorly executed as becoming a Jedi and using force powers should have been very difficult)
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Old 02-15-2007, 03:34 AM   #4
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I agree with your reasons Darth Savath; having full adults (Atton and Bao-Dur especially being in their early to mid thirties) becoming Jedi in the span of a few weeks to months is baffling, when the Jedi are always stressing how difficult Force mastery is supposed to be, and how single digit age children can be deemed too old to begin training.

But I can think of a couple of reasons that could explain their impossible feat of becoming full fledged Jedi:

1. All of them are more than just regular Force-sensitives, they could all possibly be the strongest living Force sensitives of their era. Because of this they would all be drawn to the Exile, and with so much strength they wouldnt need as much training as an average Jedi.

2. The Jedi Council may heavily exagerate (or possibly flat out lie) about how young Force training needs to begin to become a compentant Jedi. This policy of only taking children below a certain age may have more to do with being the soul influence in a childs life, instilling them with the Jedi ideals before they can be taught other beliefs that would conflict with their teachings. To teach a child who hasnt been completly raised in the Jedi Order may be deemed too dangerous because of the corrupting tendency of the Force, not because they can't learn.

3. This one is a total plot device (much like the Force itself) but if you believe that the Force has a will, you could consider that the Force itself didnt want the Jedi to dissapear, and willingly lent itself to the Exile's crew to ensure they would rebuild the Jedi Order.
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Old 02-15-2007, 08:02 AM   #5
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Mira = crap, so she shouldn't be a jedi. I prefer Bao-dur as a tech, so rule him out. I'm undecided about Atton, because while he is cooler as a scoundrel, he fits very well as a Jedi, what with his antics under Revan. i think Mical makes a good Jedi, so leave him be. Not sure about Brianna.

As for the reasons why they shouldn't be Jedi at a late age, think on this: There was barely a Jedi order at the time of TSL, certainly no-one to make sure everyone did everything as it should be. Therefore, the Exile can train whoever, regardless of their age. Plus, everyone has the potential to be trained, it's just it's more dangerous, and possibly harder, as an adult. There is no particular reason why they should not be trained, and when you do first train them, they're very weak anyway. Plus, it's all a game mechanic, and it would have been difficult to do it better. We know the game was rushed. Maybe in KOTOR III, there will be a more realistic way to train party members as Jedi, who knows? The thing is, It would be impossible to get everything spot on, exactly as it is in the Star Wars Universe 'proper'. I don't think we should stop characters from becoming Jedi because a not-exactly-foolproof game mechanic, it would be limiting.
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Old 02-15-2007, 09:02 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Savath
It was nice that they gave the option of making almost everyone in KOTOR 2 a Jedi for all the Jedi lovers out there. But it kinda bothered me how easy it is for people to become Jedi in KOTOR 2. I mean, what ever happened to the years of dedicated training? And it seems like they threw the whole YOUNG padawan idea right out the window.

Its a little dumb that every person you run into has the potential to be a Jedi at a late age. Especially considering the big deal they made about it with Revan and Vader; and with Revan and Exile, there was the exception that they were already trained as Jedi before.
Yeah, but you must realize that this was a time of great need for the Jedi, they needed as many on their side as possible.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Savath
Now I understand that the Jedi had just survived a massive purge during KOTOR 2, and there will be a need to create a new council of Jedi. But that doesn't mean they should just grasp for any force sensitive character and make them an elite Jedi. That will just strip the uniqueness of the individual characters, and make the Jedi seem less exclusive than ever. I mean hey, if you can just pick up any scoundrel off the street and make them a Jedi, whats so great about the Jedi?
But they weren't elite Jedi, they were only regular Jedi, trying to fit into a society that wouldn't accept them. (Besides Atton already knew he was Force Sensitive.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Savath
Bindo, Bastila, Juhani, Visas, and possibly Brianna (She seemed to have previous training by Atris) are enough Jedi from the list of playable characters from the last games. And not all of those Jedi are council material considering their dabbles with the dark side IMO.
But to walk the path of the Darkside, is a strength... that way you know HOW to keep from straying there again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Savath
KOTOR 3 should be able to muster up some new Jedi to fill the necessary roles. The established characters already have unique traits and qualities of their own, not everyone has to wield a light saber.

Anyways, thoughts?
Not everyone did... Mandalore, the droids, none of them wielded lightsabers... unless of course you made/downloaded a mod.
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Old 02-15-2007, 11:02 AM   #7
Titanius Anglesmith
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It does seem a bit stupid that people are able to become Jedi in a matter of a few days, but I always thought that they all had some "special" talent inside them that made them become powerful so quickly. Maybe the Force led you to them? After all,
spoiler:
at the end, Kreia does say that they are "The True Jedi upon which the future will be founded." (i think that's how it goes) That is, if they are lightside.


I would actually rather not have a bunch of Jedi in the party in K3. Maybe a bounty hunter, or a soldier, or just some random guy who's good with a blaster, I don't know. I just know that I don't want it to be completely filled with Jedi. The people who I would like to see from the previous games are -

Bastila: Maybe as your master, kind of like Kreia was in TSL.
T3-M4 and HK-47: Of course

Also, I might like to see Carth or Canderous in the party as well. On a side note, I would like all of the characters from the previous games to at least make an appearance, except for Juhani and GO-TO .


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Old 02-15-2007, 11:07 AM   #8
SilentScope001
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Eagerweasel, Kreia says that even if you go on the DS as well. All the members in your party (except for, say, Mandalore, Kreia, and the droids) were Lost Jedi [even Visas was one, she is a Miraluka aligned to the Sith], and all they needed was a leader to gather them together and tell them exactly what side to align themselves on...either the Dark Side (forming a new Sith Order) or the Light Side (forming a new Jedi Order).

In fact, I believe that any Lost Jedi not trained in K2 will soon become Jedi anyway in K3, having that force potential that they can't hide anyway.


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Old 02-15-2007, 11:13 AM   #9
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True, but I was just making the distinction between being "Jedi" or "Sith" depending on the alignments of the characters. If they are dark, then I doubt they would be considered "True Jedi", especially since they would, I assume, be creating a new Sith Order.


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Old 02-15-2007, 11:30 AM   #10
SilentScope001
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I just guess Kreia was tried of saying Force-User over and over again, so possibly just used the term "jedi" instead.

More likely, the Lost Jedi will just form the Jedi Order anyway, even if they are DS, but a Dark Side Jedi Order will raise some eyebrows, I'm sure.


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"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
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Old 02-15-2007, 08:16 PM   #11
Emperor Devon
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Personally, I'd only tolerate nine Jedi at the absolute most.

The main reason is that it would be impossible for even several more to be trained by the time KotOR III ought to take place (I'd prefer that to be immediately after TSL).

It would also make the game seem less important. Throughout K2 we it was shoved repeatedly down our throats how many Jedi were killed/converted during the wars and after, and then to suddenly have a fully rejuvenated Order by the time of KotOR III? A game that discounts the events of the previous one(s) doesn't really feel like much of a sequel to me...

Nine is a good number. The Exile, her companions, Revan, Jolee and Bastila look like a good amount. That would certainly add something new to Star Wars - there have been times when there were thousands of Jedi or just two, but a small group would be a new one. That would certainly add some extra possibilities to the storyline. (Such as some of them getting killed off without destroying the Jedi entirely)

And that's not even mentioning how some people chose to go along with the DS endings, in which all the Jedi were killed off.


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Last edited by Emperor Devon; 02-16-2007 at 02:39 PM. Reason: the most idiotic of typos
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Old 02-15-2007, 08:23 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
spoiler:
I just guess Kreia was tried of saying Force-User over and over again, so possibly just used the term "jedi" instead.

More likely, the Lost Jedi will just form the Jedi Order anyway, even if they are DS, but a Dark Side Jedi Order will raise some eyebrows, I'm sure.
Well...I always felt that even if they were trained dark side, they would have seen the "error of their ways" to SOME extent. Enough to return to the paths they formerly walked, but with a whole new attitude. For example, I would see them more shrewd and calculating, and VERY cynical (for example, Vrook. He was cynical and even borderline hateful/intolerant, but he was always planning ahead. Case in point? Letting himself be captured by the Dantooine thugs so he could penetrate further the threats to the Jedi). I also think they would be much more severe and intolerant of failure, especially since they know what is at stake, both in the galaxy (Return of the true sith, fall of the republic) and in their padawans (fall to the dark side which they themselves experienced).

Now, to keep this on topic I think they all should appear as Jedi to a certain extent. This is how I envisioned it to some degree...

Bao-Dur - Trained as a Jedi, supreme technician and inventor. Responsible for construction and maintinence of Jedi structures and assets. An honorary knight so to speak, not sitting in council.

Mira - Trained as a Jedi Knight, works as a strategist or something due to experience hunting. Not on the council.

Jolee - Jedi Master. Sitting on the council. (If Revan was LS.)

Juhani - Jedi Master. Sitting on the council. (If Revan was LS).

Atton, Visas, Handmaiden and Bastila would all be Masters as well. If you made it sufficiently long enough after KotOR2 there could also be a new generation of Knights ready to fight for the order or train new Padawans in hopes of becoming a Jedi Master.

Edit: you snuck in before me Devon, so I have a question to ask you .

If it takes place immediately after KotOR 2, why is the exile a member of the new Jedi Order (unless I read that wrong). It was VERY strongly implied no matter what he goes seeking Revan, and to do it alone/near alone...which doesn't leave him much opportunity to be training some new Jedi or even heading/suppporting a new order. You said that going against the grain of previous games makes for not much of a sequel, and if they left this out (Exile seeking Revan, where it was pretty much stated that he goes doing this) that seems to me to kind of discount the importance of the previous game in a different way.

Of course, if I missed something or misunderstood your post in some way, please clarify .



Last edited by Fish.Stapler; 02-15-2007 at 08:28 PM. Reason: Addressing above reply
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Old 02-15-2007, 08:36 PM   #13
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Quote:
If it takes place immediately after KotOR 2, why is the exile a member of the new Jedi Order (unless I read that wrong). It was VERY strongly implied no matter what he goes seeking Revan, and to do it alone/near alone...which doesn't leave him much opportunity to be training some new Jedi or even heading/suppporting a new order.
Techincally, if you go DS, it is strongly implied that Exile goes and STAYS in known space. "Inherting the Dark Throne" is the cutscene. So, The Exile can become the Leader of the Jedi/Sith Order, at least for a time, to get it up and running, before The Exile flies off to battle the True Sith.

Regardless, I doubt the player would meet The Exile at the begining of the game getting trained in the Force-Using Order.


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Old 02-15-2007, 08:42 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish.Stapler
{snip} Of course, if I missed something or misunderstood your post in some way, please clarify .
I thought the whole 'going on alone' thing was bogus, myself.

In the LS ending for TSL, you see the Hawk (which obviously has the party members in it) pick up the Exile, and then fly off to the Unknown Regions. Unless the she forced the crew to make a detour somewhere else to say "guys, I was told to go on alone for no explicit reason, so would you mind just going away?" there's not really a way she could get rid of them. (Other than spacing them, that is)

Not to mention how illogical the whole claim was in the first place. You're told that the True Sith are too dangerous for fighters as skilled as Canderous, Bastila, and et al to face. If it's too risky for 16 people people like them to face, why the heck would Revan and the Exile go alone? That sounds suicidally brave.

The whole matter is moot for DS players, too.

@SilentScope, not really. I thought the absence of the Exile during the ending scene implied she was leaving for the Unknown Regions, myself.


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Old 02-15-2007, 09:18 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
~snipped

@SilentScope, not really. I thought the absence of the Exile during the ending scene implied she was leaving for the Unknown Regions, myself.
I'm inclined to agree with you, I havent played Dark Side in a long time but I remember that I figured that this was implied.

And, I also have to agree that the "True Sith" and the going on alone thing seemed a little bit forced and unreasonable to me. HOWEVER, as the Sith in TSL demonstrated there is strength to be had in striking from the shadows. Revan and the Exile would obviously need to remain undetected, and when you aren't facing the entire brunt of an Empire at once, you're in a lot better condition than an outmatched fleet standing face to face with it .

Unfortunately, I think it's all a moot point. The KotOR2 devs left no other real options than to continue the story line about the "True Sith". Kreia, Revan, the entire game lead up to the prelude to this conflict. To skip on that now would be just lame after how they set it up, and they'd have to change to a different era to skip this conflict, which is also lame because this series needs closure, and I am not particularly enthused about starting off in an Era that already has lots of backstory. Look at the movie games and the jedi knight series, so much lore and story is so focused there that opportunites for creativity will often contradict some other piece of canon. One of the charms of the KotOR series is that they can make up their OWN story, since they're CREATING canon. To remove that by jumping to a pre-established era would be a cheap cop-out in my opinion.


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Old 02-16-2007, 12:33 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish.Stapler
I'm inclined to agree with you, I havent played Dark Side in a long time but I remember that I figured that this was implied.
After Kreia dies, the camera zooms up and shows the Unknown Regions. It's quite open to interpretation what happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish.Stapler
HOWEVER, as the Sith in TSL demonstrated there is strength to be had in striking from the shadows. Revan and the Exile would obviously need to remain undetected, and when you aren't facing the entire brunt of an Empire at once, you're in a lot better condition than an outmatched fleet standing face to face with it .
Having 2 or 18 people isn't going to make a whole lot of a difference in regards to undercover missions that Revan and the Exile are doing. You don't send two commands to complete an objective or two assassins to kill a guy in real life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish.Stapler
Unfortunately, I think it's all a moot point. The KotOR2 devs left no other real options than to continue the story line about the "True Sith". Kreia, Revan, the entire game lead up to the prelude to this conflict.
There's not only that, but the fact that the True Sith explain why the events in KotOR even happened in the first place. Other than to reorganize it to better defend itself against a greater threat, I can't see much of a reason he's wake up one morning and say "I've just saved the Republic from the Mandalorians, so I'm going to conquer it!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish.Stapler
One of the charms of the KotOR series is that they can make up their OWN story, since they're CREATING canon. To remove that by jumping to a pre-established era would be a cheap cop-out in my opinion.
I wouldn't call it KotOR III, then.


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Old 02-16-2007, 01:58 AM   #17
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I agree with Emperor D. A small group of Jedi Knights/Masters on the Council would be good. Sure, Atton and the other TSL companions aren't true Jedi, but they do have a lot of Force potential and are the Lost Jedi, who can bring the Jedi Order back to existence. Bastila, Jolee and Juhani also have this honour. Just because someone has trained longer, doesn't mean they are true Jedi. Look at Anakin. He didn't become a Jedi, until he was nine and later, he became one of the strongest Jedi of the Order.
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Old 02-16-2007, 12:52 PM   #18
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Well, I think the exile's companions will be jedi, if they appear in K3. Why? Because the option to turn them into jedi is there. It's true that you don't have to, but which solution is easier: Saying they're not jedi and disappoint players who did turn them into jedi in their games or saying they are jedi and then explaining that either the exile turned them into jedi or else they became jedi later due to their potential?

This is assuming LS exile, of course. If DS, I doubt any of the exile's companions will ever appear.

Oh, and one thing for this topic:
spoiler:
We don't actually need to use the annoying spoiler tags to discuss how TSL ends and what might happen afterwards - we're in the "Unknown Regions" section, which is already marked as being full of spoilers


I agree with most of what Emperor Devon has said, although I find his number of potential jedi a little low. Don't forget that at least some jedi went into hiding or left the order (disgruntly similarly to Zez-Kai Ell) after the jedi civil war. We know that at least some of the Sunriders must be among those, since their descendants are still around by the movies era.

I'd actually like to see Nomi and Vima in K3, though I know Lucasarts are unlikely to use them due to the Sunrider naming controversy. It's a shame though, and I see no particular reason for nixing the characters for that reason -just put them in there as "Master Nomi" and "Vima" without ever using the Sunrider name - we'll all know who they are talking about anyway. Simple really... Too bad it won't happen

Anyway, I do agree that turning all those people into jedi in TSL was a bit much. Not that impossible, but it wasn't always done well. One thing was pacing. TSL actually takes place over the course of year, so it's not as if stuff happened in just a few days, but it still manages to give that impression.

And some of transitions were just silly. I mean, Atton has this huge and complex background being a soldier, rogue and sith assassin, yet he is still a mere 3rd-level scoundrel when you meet him, and over the course of the game, you'll easily take him to level 30+... I blame the d20 system, which just doesn't make much sense sometimes.

But at least Atton got a decent "jedification"-speech. Not everybody was so lucky. The worst was Bao-Dur...

Exile: "Bao-Dur, I think I could train you to be a jedi"
Bao-Dur: "Really?"
Exile: "Yes. Would you like that?"
Bao-Dur: "Well... all right then..."
[Bao-Dur is now a jedi guardian]

Honestly, I do like Bao-Dur a lot, but that was just sad. It's not even that it didn't make sense - Bao-Dur was closer than any to the exile due to their shared experience on Malachor V - which was THE defining event of the exile's life and the creation of the force wound, after all. Plotwise it makes lots of sense. But it is told so very, very, very, very, very badly

Brianna will be difficult to handle, since canon appears to declare her dead or simply one of the handmaidens. I mean, the exile is canonically female, and the handmaidens (including Brianna) are all notably absent when the exile returns to face the fallen Atris - they are not anywhere to be found in Telos academy. The last we see of them for the female exile is just after Kreia has corrupted Atris and then goes to the sisters that their mistress has something to discuss with them. I don't know about anyone else, but given that Atris had just fallen, that always suggested to me that Atris killed the handmaidens at that point, seeing as how the handmaidens never appear again otherwise. In which case Brianna is canonically dead...

Mical is a lot easier to handle, since he actually was trained to be a padawan, even if you play male - note that even the male exile can say, that he recalls Mical from somewhere, even though Mical does not respond to it, since you cannot build influence with him when playing male.

Visas is already a force-user, and Bao-Dur has probably been connected to the force through the exile since Malachor V. Mira is more difficult to explain, though, since she appears to have nothing in her past that might explain prior force sensitivity.


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Old 02-16-2007, 06:54 PM   #19
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Devon...can you clarify the "2 to 18" comment for me? English was not my first language and I have problems understanding things like that sometimes, but I'm taking it to mean that you're saying that being only 2 people, they wont have to big of an impact?

I'm going to assume that's what you meant, and I've talked about that in previous threads, IE the logistical and tactical difficulties they would face, and how they would only be able to likely cause damage and delays to the True Sith, not stop them all together.

Of course, if I misinterpreted that, let me know .

And, I had forgotten about how the True Sith explained the events in KotOR1. Leaves them no other option, really.


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Old 02-16-2007, 07:02 PM   #20
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Quote:
Exile: "Bao-Dur, I think I could train you to be a jedi"
Bao-Dur: "Really?"
Exile: "Yes. Would you like that?"
Bao-Dur: "Well... all right then..."
[Bao-Dur is now a jedi guardian
I think, if you pay attention, Bao-Dur still want to be redeemed, and The Exile decides to train him to be a Jedi as a way to redeem him for his crimes.

Quote:
And, I had forgotten about how the True Sith explained the events in KotOR1. Leaves them no other option, really.
Other than...you know...You disobeyed the Jedi masters and now want to fall to the dark side?


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Old 02-16-2007, 08:31 PM   #21
Fish.Stapler
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I'm not sure what you mean...do you mean KotOR3 Jedi falls to the dark side or exile?

I'm going to assume KotOR3 Jedi falls to the dark side, in which case...even if you fall to the dark side in K1, your goal is still to stop the sith (at least till the end, which kind of nullifies my point, but still.) In K2, even if you fall to the dark side, you STILL are stopping the sith (the entire way through the game).

Thus, I'm going to say that in K3 even if you fall to the dark side...you'll still be focusing your efforts on stopping the true sith .

Edit, I suppose I should say that since the True Sith explain why the events in K1 occured (Mandalorian wars [Mandalorians goaded by the True Sith], Jedi Civil War [Revan returning from discovering the True Sith, attempting to unify the Republic and make it strong enough to withstand a pounding by the True Sith) and nearly all the storyline dialogue with Kreia is about the True Sith, especially when you factor Revan in, AND (holy run-on sentence batman) the ending was about going to fight the True Sith...to change the main storyline to anything OTHER than SOMETHING about the True Sith threat in KotOR3 wouldn't make it a sequel, it would make it a "Spiritual Successor". And I can tell you right now, I'd much prefer a sequel to a spiritual successor.



Last edited by Fish.Stapler; 02-16-2007 at 08:35 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old 02-16-2007, 08:59 PM   #22
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Characters who could be a Jedi in KotOR III are

Bastila: (if Revan is set as LS. Letís assume that she will be alive in KotOR III regardless of Revanís gender and alignment).

Jolee: (if Revan is set as LS, Iíd like to see him working for an Ďunderground smuggling groupí in an attempt to help the poor and oppressed on a rough planet such as Sleheyron as his typical Ďgreyí self, however, Iíd like the option to be able to convince him to become a Jedi in KotOR III. Heís dead if Revan is set as DS however).

Juhani: (ah what the hell, even though you could kill her on Dantooine and she could have died on Katarr, letís assume she is alive and is a Jedi in KotOR III if Revan is set as LS. If Revan is set as DS however, she is dead).

Atton: (if the Exile is set as LS).

Bao-Dur: (if the Exile is set as LS).

Mira: (if the Exile is set as LS).

Brianna: (only if the Exile is set as a LSM).

Disciple: (if the Exile is set as LS).

Visas: (if the Exile is set as LS).

You could have other Ďsurvivorsí (hopefully no more than a dozen Ďsurvivorsí). This could include Vima and Nomi Sunrider, as Jediphile has mentioned. Just donít use their surnames in KotOR III, thatís all.

And no, I loathe Atris, and donít want to see her AT ALL in KotOR III. To me, depending on the playerís choices, she was either:

-Killed by the Exile in TSL.
-Is in some prison and wonít be seen at all.
-Was killed by the Sith holocrons since they do not abide failure.
-Has gone on a self-imposed exile as part of her Ďredemptioní, not to be seen at all.

I donít know if itís just me, but I get the feeling that too many people focus on the canon LS and ignore the DS endings of KotOR and TSL. WHY? THOSE ENDINGS ARE THERE AND MUST BE TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION IN KOTOR III! Sorry for yelling, but Iíve made my point clear that way.

I donít like the idea of the Exileís companions being Jedi, even if he/she was DS, because it seems tooÖ.biased towards the LS, and unfair. My DS Exileís companions would NEVER become a Jedi of any sorts, because my Exile shaped them that way.

Look, size is not much of an issue anymore, since the Xbox 360 (we donít have to worry about the PC) can hold MUCH MORE space than the Xbox, so we can have a more variable story. Jediphile, why do you doubt that any of the Exileís companions will appear in KotOR III if he/she is set as DS? Itís not as if theyíre just going to fall of the KotOR map, and remember, almost all of the cut content is not canonical. So, I'd like to see a Sith Order in KotOR III, if the Exile is DS.

So, now that weíre on the subject of DS Exile:

Characters that could be Sith in KotOR III are:


Bastila: (if Revan is set as DS).

Visas, Atton and Bao-Dur: (if the Exile is set as DS).

Disciple: (only if the Exile is set as a DSF).

Brianna: (only if the Exile is set as a DSM).

And yes, since Iím a fan of the Ďcivil warí concept, I believe that no matter what, Revan and the Exile will be DS Sith Lords who depending on what you set them as, are redeemable or not redeemable.


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Old 02-17-2007, 08:34 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
I think, if you pay attention, Bao-Dur still want to be redeemed, and The Exile decides to train him to be a Jedi as a way to redeem him for his crimes.
Yes, I know. Like I said, it makes sense plotwise, but it's told badly. I'm exaggerating the actual content of Bao-Dur's "jedification" process, but it really is that short, which is disappointing in itself. Look at Atton or Mira - they go through lengthy soul-searching to realise that becoming a jedi is a way to atone for past crimes, in Atton's case, or to not be alone and unrooted anymore, in Mira's case. Handmaiden does it to feel what her mother felt, and Disciple to fulfil his training. Honestly, would it have been such a big deal writing a few minutes of dialogue for Bao-Dur in this case? I know it's there in the plot if you look for it, but it should have been given more attention, so that Bao-Dur becoming a jedi would have been pivotal moment of his life and, incidentally, the game itself rather than being casually done as a matter of course.

That said, perhaps the reason lies with the fact that the "demons" Bao-Dur has to deal with and exorcise are the ghosts of Malachor V that still haunt him. Since the exile facing the same ghosts is at the very heart of the game's plot and dilemma, the writers might have preferred to tone it down for Bao-Dur, as his transition might otherwise have given away too much of what the player is to learn about the exile only later in the plot. That could explain it. But it's still told badly.

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Originally Posted by The Architect
Juhani: (ah what the hell, even though you could kill her on Dantooine and she could have died on Katarr, letís assume she is alive and is a Jedi in KotOR III if Revan is set as LS. If Revan is set as DS however, she is dead).
Actually, I'd leave Juhani out of it. I'd make her one of the jedi killed on Katarr. It would be good point to weave into the plot, especially if the exile is somehow responsible for Nihilus' creation, as the masters suggest in TSL. Besides, the dead jedi on Katarr always seem to be "red-shirts" to me - they were just names that you didn't have to care about, with the only possible exception being Vandar. And if you didn't like him, then it didn't matter at all. Letting Juhani die there (assuming LS Revan) would make the deaths on Katarr more tragic, particularly to a LS-Revan-turned-DS. It could even be a point of potential redemption for him, if exile has become a neo-Nihilus:
"How can you do this, Revan? This dark creation called Nihilus killed your friend Juhani, and you're using this power yourself!"

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Originally Posted by The Architect
And no, I loathe Atris, and donít want to see her AT ALL in KotOR III. To me, depending on the playerís choices, she was either:

-Killed by the Exile in TSL.
-Is in some prison and wonít be seen at all.
-Was killed by the Sith holocrons since they do not abide failure.
-Has gone on a self-imposed exile as part of her Ďredemptioní, not to be seen at all.
Atris should not be in there for those exact reasons. Still, it could be cool to have a mysterious and completely unrevealed force-user make a sort of cameo appearance and then disappear without explanation only if the exile is LS. That could be Atris, but would never be revealed.

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Originally Posted by The Architect
Look, size is not much of an issue anymore, since the Xbox 360 (we donít have to worry about the PC) can hold MUCH MORE space than the Xbox, so we can have a more variable story. Jediphile, why do you doubt that any of the Exileís companions will appear in KotOR III if he/she is set as DS? Itís not as if theyíre just going to fall of the KotOR map, and remember, almost all of the cut content is not canonical. So, I'd like to see a Sith Order in KotOR III, if the Exile is DS.
I don't think they'll appear since they would almost certainly be enemies to the story. Besides, if DS they are left behind by the exile but also fairly powerful dark jedi - you'd have to deal with why they haven't already taken over most of the republic with their great powers. Even ignoring all the cut content, the easiest way of dealing with it is to say that most of them simply killed each other over who would be in power. Besides, Mira joins only a LS Exile (yes, I know you can get her and then turn DS, but it's not a likely outcome and therefore will probably be ignored) while Visas can indeed be killed. I'd assume both of them to be dead for a DS Exile, which leaves us with only Bao-Dur, Atton, or Handmaiden/Disciple. In my own plot, I did actually DS Atton as the main Sith assassin on Alderaan, whom you'd have to kill. Bao-Dur's status is uncertain, since his holographic message to Remote can be taken to imply that he is already dead, which I believe was planned in the original plot of TSL. Disciple is more likely to be a Jedi than Sith IMHO, since he already had the training and can be Sith only for a DS female Exile.


"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

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Last edited by Jediphile; 02-17-2007 at 08:58 AM.
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Old 02-17-2007, 12:24 PM   #24
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How about all new Jedi unseen before??

Like other survivors of the cleanse.

And yes the main pc should be some regular force sensitive and not some guy conveniently forgetting his past. And yes, a Visas like chick is fine tooo. Though I would LOVE to have a playable Zeltron character.
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Old 02-17-2007, 03:36 PM   #25
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Devon...can you clarify the "2 to 18" comment for me? English was not my first language and I have problems understanding things like that sometimes, but I'm taking it to mean that you're saying that being only 2 people, they wont have to big of an impact?
Throughout TSL, you hear about how the Unknown Regions were too dangerous for Revan (and later the Exile) to take any of their companions with them.

It struck me as a bit odd... The Unknown Regions are too dangerous for the 16 combined members of both their parties to go in, and yet Revan and the Exile are still going in there alone? That strikes me as suicidally brave.

Since they're both probably assassinating various people and sabotaging the True Sith's war effort, a small company of people to help them at that would be preferable than just two. In real life, you never send two people to accomplish things like that.


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Old 02-17-2007, 03:48 PM   #26
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Actually, I'm inclined to totally disagree with you.

The nature of their operation implies the UTMOST secrecy. a band of 16-18 people is much easier to detect. Though it's not many more people, it changes drastically. Unless they are all operating alone (which we get the impression they weren't going to be, especially with the "too dangerous" part) they'd get found out in a heartbeat.

18 people is also much harder to feed and maintain. Though we don't see it in the KotOR's, all your party members do eat and sleep. Revan and Exile will have to get provisions while they're out there (live off the land) and it would be very tough to steal/provide for that many people.


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Old 02-17-2007, 07:43 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Throughout TSL, you hear about how the Unknown Regions were too dangerous for Revan (and later the Exile) to take any of their companions with them.

It struck me as a bit odd... The Unknown Regions are too dangerous for the 16 combined members of both their parties to go in, and yet Revan and the Exile are still going in there alone? That strikes me as suicidally brave.

Since they're both probably assassinating various people and sabotaging the True Sith's war effort, a small company of people to help them at that would be preferable than just two. In real life, you never send two people to accomplish things like that.
Right, which is exactly why they went alone. Revan knew that he would doom anyone who took with him, but he also knew that he could become powerful, since he was already the dark lord of the Sith. So what does he do in order to stop the true Sith? He travels to their region of space, then tries to assume the title of dark lord among them by joining their ranks, thereby sparking a civil war between those already in power and himself and anyone seeing opportunity for power in that conflict. As Kreia said, civil wars are common among the Sith, and Revan was someone who understood the difference between a fall and a sacrifice, someone who was willing to wage war to save others. That's just what Revan is doing once again.


"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

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Old 02-18-2007, 09:23 AM   #28
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I think only Bastila, Visas, Atton, and Bao-Dur should be Jedi in K3. Juhani and Jolee were probably food for Nihilus. Since Exile's female (which is lamentable) Brianna probably never learned that she could become a Jedi. And Mira has probably already died before KOTOR3 starts.
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Old 02-18-2007, 09:28 AM   #29
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Throughout TSL, you hear about how the Unknown Regions were too dangerous for Revan (and later the Exile) to take any of their companions with them.

It struck me as a bit odd... The Unknown Regions are too dangerous for the 16 combined members of both their parties to go in, and yet Revan and the Exile are still going in there alone? That strikes me as suicidally brave.
Better that they die in case the operation fails than 16 or 17 other people as well. Revan and Exile decide to leave the 16 or 17 people in the Galaxy to have them prepare a backup plan if/when they fail.


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Old 02-18-2007, 01:33 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Kas'!m
Since Exile's female (which is lamentable) Brianna probably never learned that she could become a Jedi.
Exile is not female per se. Exile is whatever gender the player prefers to be. Revan's optional gender was preserved in TSL, so if exile's gender is not optional in K3, then it reeks of bias and sexism.

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And Mira has probably already died before KOTOR3 starts.
Doubtfully, unless K3 is set many, many years after TSL.

Kreia: "Her death will occur in many years time on a forgotten planet, saving the lives of others. But it will be her choice, and she will have no regrets."


"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

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Old 02-18-2007, 03:26 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Fish.Stapler
The nature of their operation implies the UTMOST secrecy. a band of 16-18 people is much easier to detect. Though it's not many more people, it changes drastically. Unless they are all operating alone (which we get the impression they weren't going to be, especially with the "too dangerous" part) they'd get found out in a heartbeat.
It was of the utmost secrecy, yes. However, 18 people would have changed this little.

From what little was revealed during KotOR II, Revan was likely traveling from planet to planet in the real Sith Empire, sabotaging various things and assassinating various people.

Obviously Revan would be using a ship for the majority of all his traveling. Overall, detecting a ship that caries one person isn't that much harder than an Ebon Hawk-sized one, which could carry 18. A ship just for Revan probably wouldn't be a lot smaller than the Hawk, anyway - engines, life support, cargo, etc take up a fair amount of space.

For when they're actually on planets, the extra people would be far from a burden. In the event that Revan didn't need all of them, they could stay on the Hawk like in the other games. Even that would prove advantageous - if any Sith happened to stumble upon Revan's ship if he was traveling alone, they could just take it and leave him stranded in the middle of hostile territory. If he had allies, however, such attacks could be repulsed.

Nothing but helpful there. If Revan needed twelve people for his current mission, they could go along with him, which would obviously be a help. If not, they could stay on the Hawk and reduce the probability of it being stolen/destroyed. Their presence on it wouldn't give away the location, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish.Stapler
18 people is also much harder to feed and maintain. Though we don't see it in the KotOR's, all your party members do eat and sleep. Revan and Exile will have to get provisions while they're out there (live off the land) and it would be very tough to steal/provide for that many people.
Technically sixteen. Two are droids.

Food wouldn't be much of a problem IMO. It's likely they could've packed enough for sixteen people before the journey began, and just have stolen some in the event they ran out. The True Sith likely have food sources that easily support that many people.

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Originally Posted by Jediphile
He travels to their region of space, then tries to assume the title of dark lord among them by joining their ranks, thereby sparking a civil war between those already in power and himself and anyone seeing opportunity for power in that conflict.
The only problem would be their willingness to accept him. With how they forced the Mandalorians to attack the Republic, the True Sith are at least somewhat aware of events going on in known space. I don't think they'd be very friendly towards someone who was trying to toughen the galaxy up against them.


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Old 02-18-2007, 03:59 PM   #32
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The only problem would be their willingness to accept him. With how they forced the Mandalorians to attack the Republic, the True Sith are at least somewhat aware of events going on in known space. I don't think they'd be very friendly towards someone who was trying to toughen the galaxy up against them.
Were the true Sith behind the Mandalorian Wars, though? It's a popular theory, but while Canderous does say that the Sith (and not the "true" Sith) came to the Mandalorians with a proposal, it's never clarified just who those Sith were. It could even be a reference back to Mandalore's alliance with Exar Kun during the Great Sith War.

As for how they would see Revan, it depends, I guess. Revan split the jedi order and then waged war against the republic, bringing both the jedi order and the republic itself to the very brink of extinction. Revan has helped the true Sith rather a lot, and probably more than they could ever have hoped for. Besides, the true Sith must also be Sith, which means there would internal in-fighting between the various lords and potential lords, who are all fighting to improve their own power within the system. Revan, being ever the tactician, could exploit that by making alliances with those who are not so high in the system, but who could gain greater power from working with Revan. As Kreia says, civil wars are common among the Sith, which is probably why nobody has heard of them for a millennium.


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Old 02-18-2007, 04:29 PM   #33
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Devon, Revan is a tactician, which is stressed often in the series.

While I do have no doubts he would be able to manage 18 people/droids easily, he would understand that's not using your resources effectively. The danger that is stressed often in the game would likely mean the end of his companions. Taking the canoniocal views into perspective...

1. Carth - becomes an Admiral in the Republic Navy. Revan would have recognized his importance and not taken him to die on a dangerous mission into Unknown space. Carth likely becomes instrumental to rebuilding the Republic and keeping the Navy in fighting condition.

2. Bastila - Unknown occupation, but seen in Telos Citadel Station following the Battle of Telos. Will likely become important in refounding some form of Force-using order.

3. Mission - 14-15 by the time Revan left for the unknown regions, too young and likely not psychologically ready for a journey beyond the Republic's borders.

4. Zaalbar - Won't leave without Mission, lifedebt or not.

5. Juhani - Unknown. Perhaps killed on Catharr, still may be important to the Jedi Order in some way.

6. Jolee - likely working to aid the Republic in some way, probably smuggling to backwater systems to rebuild Republic worlds. Likely too old to follow Revan.

Now for the Exile's companions...

1. Kreia. Dead. Moot point. Guided the exile along, figured out Revan's plan.

2. Atton, Disciple, Mira, Visas, Bao-Dur - will be needed to rebuild the Jedi Order in some way, shape, or form. More useful as 5 people rebuilding one Empire to stand against another than 5 comparatively weak fighters aiding two people in sabotage missions..

3. Goto - gone.

Now, for the three that both the Exile and Revan shared...

1. HK-47 - Intensely loyal, Revan had to shut him down (painfully) so he wouldn't follow. Likely still needed by the Republic to eliminate sensitive targets. The entire reason he was built by Revan was to destroy targets that threatened the Republic from the inside, not the outside.

2. T3-M4 - Reprogrammed by Bastila, aided Revan by getting him help in the form of the Jedi Exile. More useful in the core systems than outside.

3. Mandalore Canderous Ordo - Rebuilding the Mandalorian Armada, still loyal to Revan. Will likely use his fleet and his warriors to aid the Republic against the Sith in K3.

Of course, even if one of the characters went dark side, the people who remained would still be more important rebuilding some sort of resistance than fighting in the Unknown Regions. Remember, Revan and the Exile's mission was not to STOP the true sith, but to DELAY them until the Republic and the Jedi or the Sith get time to rebuild.


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Old 02-18-2007, 11:00 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
Actually, I'd leave Juhani out of it. I'd make her one of the jedi killed on Katarr. It would be good point to weave into the plot, especially if the exile is somehow responsible for Nihilus' creation, as the masters suggest in TSL. Besides, the dead jedi on Katarr always seem to be "red-shirts" to me - they were just names that you didn't have to care about, with the only possible exception being Vandar. And if you didn't like him, then it didn't matter at all. Letting Juhani die there (assuming LS Revan) would make the deaths on Katarr more tragic, particularly to a LS-Revan-turned-DS. It could even be a point of potential redemption for him, if exile has become a neo-Nihilus:
"How can you do this, Revan? This dark creation called Nihilus killed your friend Juhani, and you're using this power yourself!"
Either way, it doesn't bother me personally if they leave Juhani out of KotOR III all together or not. However, I think if they leave Juhani out of KotOR III all together, they should not mention her at all, since that way, the player can decide her fate.

Either way, she must be dead, and if you don't mention how she died, then you haven't disregarded the fact that you could kill her on Dantooine (even as LS Revan), which is something that some players did (even if they chose the LS ending) and is their 'canonical' choice/view you could say. For those who did not kill her on Dantooine from their 'canonical' perspective, then one could, and most likely must, assume that she died on Katarr.

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Originally Posted by Jediphile
Atris should not be in there for those exact reasons. Still, it could be cool to have a mysterious and completely unrevealed force-user make a sort of cameo appearance and then disappear without explanation only if the exile is LS. That could be Atris, but would never be revealed.
If that unrevealed force-user was Atris, not only can she not be seen, but she wouldn't be allowed to speak either, since those of us who played TSL would know who it is, so what kind of cameo would that be? How would you propose such a cameo is done? Like the Revan apparition on Korriban in TSL?

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Originally Posted by Jediphile
I don't think they'll appear since they would almost certainly be enemies to the story. Besides, if DS they are left behind by the exile but also fairly powerful dark jedi - you'd have to deal with why they haven't already taken over most of the republic with their great powers.
In my old KotOR III story, before DS Exile ventured fourth into the unknown regions, he/she told his/her companions to build a new Sith Order and set it up along the outer-rim, working together with Mandalore and his rebuilt Mandalorian armada in an effort to create a Ďdefensive outpostí across the outer-rim to halt potential True Sith invasion.

DS Exile, much like DS Revan, is more concerned about defeating the greater threat, and only after the True Sith is dealt with, he/she will turn his/her attention to crushing/conquering the Republic and hunting the remaining Jedi to extinction.

So DS Exileís companions show no interest in taking over the Republic. The way I see it, DS Exileís companions are nothing but loyal, corrupted slaves of his/hers that no longer have a will of their own. Their lives are devoted to serving the Exileís needs and requests.

Thatís how I'd deal with that problem.

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Originally Posted by Jediphile
Even ignoring all the cut content, the easiest way of dealing with it is to say that most of them simply killed each other over who would be in power. Besides, Mira joins only a LS Exile (yes, I know you can get her and then turn DS, but it's not a likely outcome and therefore will probably be ignored) while Visas can indeed be killed. I'd assume both of them to be dead for a DS Exile, which leaves us with only Bao-Dur, Atton, or Handmaiden/Disciple. In my own plot, I did actually DS Atton as the main Sith assassin on Alderaan, whom you'd have to kill. Bao-Dur's status is uncertain, since his holographic message to Remote can be taken to imply that he is already dead, which I believe was planned in the original plot of TSL. Disciple is more likely to be a Jedi than Sith IMHO, since he already had the training and can be Sith only for a DS female Exile.
Yes, I know that Disciple can only be a Sith if the Exile is a DSF. The way I see it, we'll most likely get to see a new Jedi Order with LS Exile, but what about DS Exile? I say bring on a new Sith Order for DS Exile.

As you know, the party members in TSL fell off the face of the map near the end. They just magically disappeared without any explanation regarding their whereabouts or anything. Obviously that was because of the cut content.

Iíd like to see more closure to TSLís characters. If I donít see any of the Exileís companions in KotOR III (when I set the Exile as DS) then Iím going to think WTF happened to them?

We heard Kreiaís predictions about them being alive and doing this and that, but where are they? To me, it doesnít do the cut content any justice. I think itíd be more dramatic if we see what happens to them in KotOR III (with all alignment combos) not hear about what happened to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
Were the true Sith behind the Mandalorian Wars, though? It's a popular theory, but while Canderous does say that the Sith (and not the "true" Sith) came to the Mandalorians with a proposal, it's never clarified just who those Sith were. It could even be a reference back to Mandalore's alliance with Exar Kun during the Great Sith War.
I think Canderous was referring to the True Sith. While the quote I'm about to post is cut content and is therefore not canonical, it shows us at least what Obsidian had in mind.

*DSF Revan*

Mandalore: "You sound like Revan, at the end. Do you know what she told me, as I lay dying on the outer rim? That the Mandalorian Wars were our doom. That we had been deceived, that it had never been our decision to wage war on the Republic. Revan said the Mandalorians didn't invade the Republic's space because it was our choice. We were tricked; our entire people sacrificed as pawns, and never knew it! She said there was a war coming, that it was waiting in the unknown regions, in the dark, waiting for us to destroy each other."

Visas: "A war? This war?"

Mandalore: "No, not this one. Another one, more terrible, against an evil we couldn't begin to comprehend. A war of belief that had been fought for thousands of years. Revan went off to fight it..."

Visas: "...and left you here."

Mandalore: "Revan was one of the greatest military leaders in the galaxy. In history. She had no use for a people who had already been beaten once. She said the time of the Mandalorians was over. The Mandalorian wars had killed us. And she laughed."

Visas: "And that is what burns in your heart, and that is why clan Ordo was reborn; to prove Revan wrong."

Mandalore: "No, not Revan."

I agree with Jediphile. Itís not implausible to think that Revan could join a True Sith faction and join/orchestrate a civil war amongst them. If you assume that Revan isnít weaker than every True Sith, if you assume that Revan is perhaps powerful than some, most, heck, maybe even every True Sith, then it is a possibility.

Think about it, all Revan would have to do is prove his/her superior power and tactical prowess to a weaker True Sith faction (since Sith by definition respect power and war associated stuff) and begin a crusade to unite different True Sith factions, build in numbers and attempt to defeat the stronger, rival faction/s and claim the title of Dark Lord of the True Sith.


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Last edited by The Architect; 02-19-2007 at 12:13 AM.
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Old 02-18-2007, 11:51 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish.Stapler
{snip} Carth likely becomes instrumental to rebuilding the Republic and keeping the Navy in fighting condition.
Mmm, Carth isn't, in reality, all that valuable. A lot of people think he's become the new Supreme Commander of the Republic Fleet, but in reality all TSL says is that he's an admiral. Valuable, of course, but not indispensable... A consortium as large as the Republic likely has hundreds of other people at his same rank, let alone the higher ones.

If Carth was crucial to completing a certain mission, he would be by all means more useful there. One less admiral in the Republic for a while is a smaller loss than losing Revan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish.Stapler
2. Bastila - Unknown occupation, but seen in Telos Citadel Station following the Battle of Telos. Will likely become important in refounding some form of Force-using order.
Ah yes, but here we go back to the original point of this thread. Having a new Force-using Order wouldn't go well with the plot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish.Stapler
3. Mission - 14-15 by the time Revan left for the unknown regions, too young and likely not psychologically ready for a journey beyond the Republic's borders.
Nope, 14 by the time of KotOR. 19 by the time of TSL. Sounds old enough to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish.Stapler
5. Juhani - Unknown. Perhaps killed on Catharr, still may be important to the Jedi Order in some way.
It's possible she was killed on Katarr. But supposing she wasn't, she'd be more useful in the Unknown Regions (for reasons listed above).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish.Stapler
6. Jolee - likely working to aid the Republic in some way, probably smuggling to backwater systems to rebuild Republic worlds. Likely too old to follow Revan.
Back to the Carth example. There are far more smugglers than admirals. Seems like a waste for him to go back to that.

Old, I don't think so. In the movies you see Dooku and Sidious fighting duels at 80 that would exhaust men half their age (the Force does compensate for such things). Jolee, from what we've seen, looks below 80.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish.Stapler
2. Atton, Disciple, Mira, Visas, Bao-Dur - will be needed to rebuild the Jedi Order in some way, shape, or form. More useful as 5 people rebuilding one Empire to stand against another than 5 comparatively weak fighters aiding two people in sabotage missions..
(My above posts on a new Order)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish.Stapler
1. HK-47 - Intensely loyal, Revan had to shut him down (painfully) so he wouldn't follow. Likely still needed by the Republic to eliminate sensitive targets.
HK would be far more useful assassinating various generals and other prominent figures amongst the True Sith than dealing with any local threats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish.Stapler
More useful in the core systems than outside.
Given what they're doing, a computer hacker could be quite handy for Revan and the Exile (possibly just as much as assassinating people - changing the location of troop deployments, the number of men assigned to various battles, etc, would be very useful). I don't think his physical location would change that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish.Stapler
3. Mandalore Canderous Ordo - Rebuilding the Mandalorian Armada, still loyal to Revan. Will likely use his fleet and his warriors to aid the Republic against the Sith in K3.
From what we saw in KotOR II, the Mandalorians do okay when he's gone for long periods of time. There is a greater need for him to stay back in known space, though, I'll admit that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish.Stapler
Remember, Revan and the Exile's mission was not to STOP the true sith, but to DELAY them until the Republic and the Jedi or the Sith get time to rebuild.
Not just to delay, but also to weaken. The True Sith wouldn't delay their invasion on the account of two saboteurs (who would likely stop troubling them when the invasion starts - their tactical abilities would be quite valuable).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretooth
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Old 02-19-2007, 12:44 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerWeasel
I would actually rather not have a bunch of Jedi in the party in K3. Maybe a bounty hunter, or a soldier, or just some random guy who's good with a blaster, I don't know. I just know that I don't want it to be completely filled with Jedi.
Perhaps the course of action is having the option to train party members/take-ons.

Various side quest POSSIBILITIES. Party memebers even if temporarily and only for the sake and course of training.
Like a side line quest to the main quest that is not necessary yet addidative and complimentary to the main story.
That is my take on a greater execution for desired material in a non-adulterating method.


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Old 03-15-2007, 09:36 PM   #37
Darca Lar
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you forget one thing about the exile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Savath
I see alot of people naming off characters they wish to appear in KOTOR 3 as Jedi, such as

Atton Rand
Brianna
Mical
Bao-Dur
Mira

I really hope they don't all appear as Jedi in the game.

It was nice that they gave the option of making almost everyone in KOTOR 2 a Jedi for all the Jedi lovers out there. But it kinda bothered me how easy it is for people to become Jedi in KOTOR 2. I mean, what ever happened to the years of dedicated training? And it seems like they threw the whole YOUNG padawan idea right out the window.

Its a little dumb that every person you run into has the potential to be a Jedi at a late age. Especially considering the big deal they made about it with Revan and Vader; and with Revan and Exile, there was the exception that they were already trained as Jedi before.

Now I understand that the Jedi had just survived a massive purge during KOTOR 2, and there will be a need to create a new council of Jedi. But that doesn't mean they should just grasp for any force sensitive character and make them an elite Jedi. That will just strip the uniqueness of the individual characters, and make the Jedi seem less exclusive than ever. I mean hey, if you can just pick up any scoundrel off the street and make them a Jedi, whats so great about the Jedi?

Bindo, Bastila, Juhani, Visas, and possibly Brianna (She seemed to have previous training by Atris) are enough Jedi from the list of playable characters from the last games. And not all of those Jedi are council material considering their dabbles with the dark side IMO.

KOTOR 3 should be able to muster up some new Jedi to fill the necessary roles. The established characters already have unique traits and qualities of their own, not everyone has to wield a light saber.

Anyways, thoughts?
You're forgetting that the Exile was a wound in the force as Kreia stated, and as such it was also mentioned that the Exile could corrupt others to his/her will hence the scene where your companion freaks about attacking the merchant on Dantooine without thinking, but because you did!(which is the whole influence part of the game) AND the Exile because of his/her force wound status, could subconciously manipulate and boost the force sensitivity of his/her companions making them a Jedi quickly as you should already know. And if in the next game they should appear and the Exile should not with them, then maybe then their powers would have weakened and possibly eventually diminished completely...


Yesterday is history. Tomorrow, a mystery. Today is a gift...that is why it is called the present.
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Old 03-15-2007, 11:13 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Mmm, Carth isn't, in reality, all that valuable. A lot of people think he's become the new Supreme Commander of the Republic Fleet, but in reality all TSL says is that he's an admiral. Valuable, of course, but not indispensable... A consortium as large as the Republic likely has hundreds of other people at his same rank, let alone the higher ones.

If Carth was crucial to completing a certain mission, he would be by all means more useful there. One less admiral in the Republic for a while is a smaller loss than losing Revan.
An admiral may not be a indispensible asset to the republic, but it's sure better than having him standing around gaurding Revan's ship, as mentioned earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Ah yes, but here we go back to the original point of this thread. Having a new Force-using Order wouldn't go well with the plot.
Having a new order right away would be rediculous, but the remaining jedi in known space are supposed to start rebuiling the order. This could easily take generations, and every jedi that can be spared needs to be part of that task of rebuilding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Nope, 14 by the time of KotOR. 19 by the time of TSL. Sounds old enough to me.
she's 14 at KOTOR, and that is the time that Revan leaves for the unknown regions, so she still wouldn't be ready yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
It's possible she was killed on Katarr. But supposing she wasn't, she'd be more useful in the Unknown Regions (for reasons listed above).
Same reason as Bastila. As well, there is a much greater chance that she died, both because of the many chances of her death in KOTOR, as well as her unpopularity lol.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Back to the Carth example. There are far more smugglers than admirals. Seems like a waste for him to go back to that.

Old, I don't think so. In the movies you see Dooku and Sidious fighting duels at 80 that would exhaust men half their age (the Force does compensate for such things). Jolee, from what we've seen, looks below 80.
Jolee doesn't necesarily have to be a smuggler, he can still have a better purpose in known space helping people than in the unknown regions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
(My above posts on a new Order)
I have the same reasons for Atton, Mira, Bao-dur, Visas, Handmaiden, and Disciple as Bastila.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
HK would be far more useful assassinating various generals and other prominent figures amongst the True Sith than dealing with any local threats.
The assasinating in the unknown regions is Revan's job. HK can take care of the threats in known space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Devon
Given what they're doing, a computer hacker could be quite handy for Revan and the Exile (possibly just as much as assassinating people - changing the location of troop deployments, the number of men assigned to various battles, etc, would be very useful). I don't think his physical location would change that.
Given Revan's brilliance, I doubt he would get himself stumped by a mere computer. Besides, T3 is already serving a useful purpose, which he demonstrated in tsl.
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Old 03-22-2007, 12:57 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnIgmA_XX
An admiral may not be a indispensible asset to the republic, but it's sure better than having him standing around gaurding Revan's ship, as mentioned earlier.
You'll notice I mentioned he could either guard Revan's ship or assist him with whatever mission he wanted help with. But either way and extra person to help Revan would be more useful than another admiral in a navy during a relatively peacful time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnIgmA_XX
Having a new order right away would be rediculous, but the remaining jedi in known space are supposed to start rebuiling the order. This could easily take generations, and every jedi that can be spared needs to be part of that task of rebuilding.
Not very plausible... you have to remember DS players. Having two alternative stories, one with and one without a new Order, would take a fair amount of effort. It would be much easier for LA to keep a small group of Jedi.

Starting a new Order would seem like something best kept for the ending of the game, anyway. What better way to conclude the LS version of the game with the true Sith defeated, and a new Order rising now that they're gone for good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnIgmA_XX
she's 14 at KOTOR, and that is the time that Revan leaves for the unknown regions, so she still wouldn't be ready yet.
No, there's a time gap. It's stated multiple times that TSL takes place 5 years after KotOR. 14 + 5 = 19. And there seems to have been no indication she left for the Unknown Regions during that time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnIgmA_XX
Same reason as Bastila. As well, there is a much greater chance that she died, both because of the many chances of her death in KOTOR, as well as her unpopularity lol.
I don't care much for Juhani, myself. Not the most interesting of party members, and not much of a character.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnIgmA_XX
Jolee doesn't necesarily have to be a smuggler, he can still have a better purpose in known space helping people than in the unknown regions.
What could he really do in known space? There are others who could go about helping people, which strikes me as a less pressing matter than helping to sabotage a galactic invasion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnIgmA_XX
The assasinating in the unknown regions is Revan's job. HK can take care of the threats in known space.
But what threats are left? The top leadership of the Sith is destroyed, and what's left of them are fighting another civil war. Then compare that to an entire empire that's poised for invasion... HK would be very handy there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnIgmA_XX
Given Revan's brilliance, I doubt he would get himself stumped by a mere computer.
I would differ... being a skilled general or fighter by no way grants one an intimate knowledge of computers. Revan isn't a jack of all trades and skilled at everything, contrary to fanboy belief.

Besides, it's already shown in the game he isn't nearly as skilled as T3 when it comes to computers. If he couldn't hack through the main door of a fairly mediocre Sith base on a backwater planet, he'd be an idiot to think he could get through the doubtlessly tougher security the true Sith have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnIgmA_XX
Besides, T3 is already serving a useful purpose, which he demonstrated in tsl.
Finding lost Jedi generals cut off from the Force seemed to be his main purpose in TSL... I'd wager there aren't many of those left for him to find.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretooth
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Old 03-22-2007, 03:43 AM   #40
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Well, a few surviving council member may be ok, along with their newly trained Jedi knights. Having too many "preset fate" of secondary characters make players feel that their previous effore are meaningless to a certain degree. Cath is ok, cause he survived it nomatter what,

I really don't want to see any of those "trainable jedis" show up. Not everyone wants to trai them into jedis. And I DEFINITELY NOT WANT TO SEE ANY TRAILS OF THAT DISGUSTING PERVERT NAMED MICAL. JUST NO.
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