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Old 04-22-2007, 06:14 PM   #41
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I donít know but I think that maybe the next Darth Traya could be Brianna (The Handmaiden).... She was betrayed by Atris , she is part of the New raising order and she cant control her emotion very well So she is my number 1 option....

1)Brianna

if is not her then

2) Bastila

Or if is not her for last I think It will be Dustil

He thought that heís father betrayed him but then he "Forgave himĒ but then remember he did not decided to walk the path of a Jedi , he just leaved , where? We donít know and remember he was a Sith and trained in the ways of the dark side... so he is my 3 and final option ....



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Old 04-22-2007, 06:17 PM   #42
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I still think that the "third" Traya in K3 should be either Revan or the new pc depending on the new pc's LS/DS choice.


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Old 04-23-2007, 10:33 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Tenebrous
Thats what I'm saying. Anakin was a betrayer at the time also.
You could say Palpatine was also.

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Old 04-23-2007, 06:53 PM   #44
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It is cannon that the Exile is female, which means that the Handmaiden didn't join the party. So that makes her being the 3rd Darth Traya unlikely.

I support Revan as a betrayer. It is easy to understand that he could have faked being a LS Jedi again to destroy Malak, and use the Republic as the means to destroy the only threat to his reign as the Dark Lord of the Sith: the True Sith. So after this becomes apparent, and he uses the PC to eliminate the True Sith's leader so that he can take the throne, the PC must stop his attack on the Republic.

Just my idea.
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Old 04-23-2007, 07:16 PM   #45
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You do realize that they're name wouldn't become Darth Traya right? That Kreia was just using a metaphor?


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Old 04-23-2007, 07:56 PM   #46
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I think that we all get that. It is one of the most deep philisophical points in the game, and anyone who takes it at its surface value probably has the IQ of a gizka. Lol, Star Wars geek-style insult. Pwn3d!
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Old 04-23-2007, 08:13 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Darth Tenebrous
It is cannon that the Exile is female, which means that the Handmaiden didn't join the party. So that makes her being the 3rd Darth Traya unlikely.
I seriously doubt canon is going to effect the storyline in KOTOR 3.
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Old 04-24-2007, 02:59 PM   #48
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I find it hard to believe that the canon of what happened in the other games, which at some points were largely based off of gender (the reasons why each character did each thing, the NPCs in your party, etc.), wouldn't play a large role in K3. Each action that both Revan and the Exile took were crucial to the Republic, as stated by Kreia and G0-T0, and proven by the plot itself. Since some of these actions were gender-defined, and light side/dark side defined, the developers have to assume that one side or the other is what actually happened.

For example, the Exile could have left Malachor, or stayed there. Also, the Ebon Hawk could have been destroyed, or survived the events. Unless K2 is pointless in the series, these must be addressed.

It is possible that, if you say in conversation that the Exile was male, then one of the characters is Brianna. It is also possible that conversation choices determine the attributes and charactaristics of each NPC, and who the enemy is. But then, what becomes the canon version of K3?

Even if the player is allowed to choose the gender and LS/DS of the characters of KotOR 1 and 2, I still doubt that the game developers would have one of the main DS characters, and the PC's enemy, depend on these choices. It would just be extra work to program, and unnecessary when the plot could have a character that was the same no matter who the PC was be this betrayer (metephorically "Darth Traya").

If for no other reason, then at least so that the starwars.wikia.com article on this character doesn't need a discussion page on the complexities of canon disputes.

Last edited by Darth Tenebrous; 04-24-2007 at 03:13 PM. Reason: Added a point that I had forgotten to include
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Old 04-24-2007, 07:05 PM   #49
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I think Revan could well be a DSer (again?) by the end of K3, twisted and corrupted by his dealing with the True Sith (seeing as what they left at Malachor is what corrupted him--or at the very least put a man, hungry for knowledge and power beyond what he was being granted by the Jedi framework, over the edge--in the first place). But I'm not sure that if such were to occur that he would be a candidate for the role of "Darth Traya." He is/was Darth Revan, and his life is as much about the power he wields and how his choices affect those around him as anything else.

It is my belief that the role of "Darth Traya" more specifically is in reference to a sense of betrayal of the Force itself, or at the very least it's philosophical foundations as stated by he Jedi Order. That is, the fall of "Darth Traya" is in relation to the loss of faith in the Jedi's way of interpreting the Force. That applies to Kreia's decision to follow in Revan's footsteps by giving in to Malachor, spawned by the fact that all her apprentices chose to follow Revan to war (and presumably fall to the DS) against the greater "wisdom" of the Jedi Council, who cast her out because of her abberant teachings. Likewise, Atris felt betrayed by the Jedi interpretation of the Force because in her heart she believed the Exile--who she either admired or loved--was right to go to war. And shame at that belief is what drove her anger and lust for punishment. Surrounded by corruptive Sith holocrons, her faith in the Jedi view of the Force likely eroded even more.

On top of all that, we have the fact that Kreia was jaded by betrayals to the point that she came to hate the Force for controlling her destiny. While that is her belief, it is in no way certain that she was correct about there always having to be a "Darth Traya." Her own interpretation of existence is not the end all and be all, and as someone who was haunted by what others told her were her failures, she could be construed as desperate to justify why she was right. That, arguably, is her purpose behind training the Exile in the first place.

Anyway...

If there is a Darth Traya going forward, the best candidate IMO would have been a *light side* Exile--since I do believe that what Zez kai-el, Vrook, and Kavar tried to do at Dantooine constitutes a betrayal in terms of what the Jedi's interpretation of the Force *is*. The deeds of a LS Exile showed that the Jedi Order, by proxy, would not look beyond the Exile's wound to try to come to a greater understanding of her and the Force itself. That, to me, is a betrayal of "universal good" by the entire system of beliefs the Jedi Order was built upon. I know that my first time playing the game I was crushed by that scene, after all the good I had done and hoped to do by destroying the Sith, and I certainly think that it carries the emotional impact of a betrayal that could lead to a fall.
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Old 04-24-2007, 07:06 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Tenebrous
I find it hard to believe that the canon of what happened in the other games, which at some points were largely based off of gender (the reasons why each character did each thing, the NPCs in your party, etc.), wouldn't play a large role in K3. Each action that both Revan and the Exile took were crucial to the Republic, as stated by Kreia and G0-T0, and proven by the plot itself. Since some of these actions were gender-defined, and light side/dark side defined, the developers have to assume that one side or the other is what actually happened.

For example, the Exile could have left Malachor, or stayed there. Also, the Ebon Hawk could have been destroyed, or survived the events. Unless K2 is pointless in the series, these must be addressed.
Well actually I posted an idea for that in the 'Jedi Vagrant' thread.

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So the story of the crew(other than Mira or if DS, Hanharr, GO-TO and Remote) should be that they fly off Malachor,(with the Exile if LS, or without the Exile if DS) and go back to rendevous with everyone at Citadel Station, but don't mention whether the Exile was ever on board(LS they drop the Exile off on Nar Shadaa and swear secrecy. T3 also transfer's the locked navigation charts from Revan's travels to the Exile's datapad and then locks them again so the crew doesn't follow, DS the Exile flew off on Kreia's ship before the Ebon Hawk could get airborn again). The only thing they say is that the Exile is probably where Revan is.


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Old 04-24-2007, 07:25 PM   #51
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Each action that both Revan and the Exile took were crucial to the Republic, as stated by Kreia and G0-T0, and proven by the plot itself. Since some of these actions were gender-defined, and light side/dark side defined, the developers have to assume that one side or the other is what actually happened.
Have you heard of Canon LS and Canon DS?

Some choices are assumed to have occured, but the most important choices are left by alignment. A LS Revan would save the Republic. A DS Revan would blow it up. No need to rely on any sort of canon at all.

Quote:
It is possible that, if you say in conversation that the Exile was male, then one of the characters is Brianna. It is also possible that conversation choices determine the attributes and charactaristics of each NPC, and who the enemy is. But then, what becomes the canon version of K3?
The "canon" verison of K3 would be one that would follow what is the canon verison of K1 and K2.

For example, if there is a specific villian that is formed that happens if Revan is set to LSM and Exile is set to LSF, there, that specific villian is canon and all other specific villians are uncanon.

See? Simple. Not that canon is necesseray, canon is somewhat useless, and in fact, determintal to having fun. Some people prefer a LSM Exile...or *gasp* the Dark Side.

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Even if the player is allowed to choose the gender and LS/DS of the characters of KotOR 1 and 2, I still doubt that the game developers would have one of the main DS characters, and the PC's enemy, depend on these choices. It would just be extra work to program, and unnecessary when the plot could have a character that was the same no matter who the PC was be this betrayer (metephorically "Darth Traya").
But...well, they did do that. The developers thought of having Atris or Kreia be Darth Traya based on a choice made in-game (it is unknown what that choice is). They cut it, but they did have some VO for Atris acting as Darth Traya and force-choking party members hidden. Wouldn't be too much of a stretch to program in a villian based on Revan/Exile's alignment.

They determined one party member, Disciple or Handmaiden, based on the M/F choice of Exile, and determined another party member, Mira or Hanharr, based on the LS/DS choice of Exile. So, it's not that complex.

It must make sense though and must fit the plot...I think the developers cut Atris becoming Darth Traya and being the final boss is because, well, it's unneeded, and it would be better to have Kreia be the final boss. Not because of complexiety, because they don't care of that, or of canon.


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Old 04-24-2007, 07:55 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
I think the developers cut Atris becoming Darth Traya and being the final boss is because, well, it's unneeded, and it would be better to have Kreia be the final boss. Not because of complexiety, because they don't care of that, or of canon.
I think they more likely cut it because it didn't make a lot of sense. Sure, Atris is a bad girl and could easily go DS (in fact, she does), but that doesn't change that "Fight the Force!" is Kreia's particular cause and not Atris'. It makes very little sense that Atris should suddenly adopt all of Kreia's goals and motives just because she became Darth Traya. I think that's why they cut it - Kreia's views and goals are pretty unique and cannot be simply shifted to Atris without credibility taking massive damage.


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Old 04-24-2007, 08:40 PM   #53
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Thanks all for explaining the possibilites and clearing my opinions up.

Still, I bet that the betrayer will be either Revan or Atris (at least I hope so).
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Old 07-23-2007, 11:29 AM   #54
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I think it will be revan. Even tho the Lightside Kotor is Canon hes destiny is to die as a Dark Lord Of The Sith
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Old 07-23-2007, 03:53 PM   #55
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Where does it say that that's his destiny?


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Old 09-23-2007, 04:39 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Jediphile
It could be Revan simply on the basis of him joining the true Sith and then betraying them.
That's a very good thought. To me Darth Traya sounds like a female name. Bastila comes to mind. But I really like what you said. Kreia said that you need Darth Traya's. Maybe lightsided Revan suposedly joins the true Sith only to intentionally betray them in the end and defeat them. This could work to for the darksided Revan and it would be a legitimate betrayal, where as the lightsided Revan would just be a spy.


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Old 09-23-2007, 04:46 PM   #57
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Darth Traya is a womans name... and I do think that Kreia was the original "Darth Traya" , but used it as a metaphor when she said " There will always be a Darth Traya" That means that someone is ALWAYS going to be betrayed and betray others...

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Old 09-24-2007, 01:32 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by BigMike322
That's a very good thought. To me Darth Traya sounds like a female name. Bastila comes to mind.
Classically, sure. However, names ending in -a or -ia are not female by definition. Take Attila the Hun, for example. I suppose it's assumed, because -a is the classic suffix for nouns in the female gender in latin, where the male counterpart is -us (and -um for neuter), but even in latin there are several words that take the male gender even if they end in -a, such as agricola (peasant) or nauta (sailor). Probably many more examples that I can't think of right now...

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But I really like what you said. Kreia said that you need Darth Traya's. Maybe lightsided Revan suposedly joins the true Sith only to intentionally betray them in the end and defeat them. This could work to for the darksided Revan and it would be a legitimate betrayal, where as the lightsided Revan would just be a spy.
Exactly, and I tend to think so since it solves another problem for the game, which is how the writers can get Revan into the K3 plot regardless of whether you chose the DS or LS ending for K1. It's not a huge problem for the exile, since the exile ends up going to the unknown regions (or is at the very least suggested to do so) at the end of TSL, and so the difference between the LS and DS endings of TSL is minimal (the major one being Malachor's fate, which probably has no significance to KotOR3). The LS and DS endings of K1 are very, very different, however, and it's a challenge to write a storyline for KotOR3 that caters to both of them without writing totally different plots. This could be one way to do it.


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Old 09-24-2007, 01:41 PM   #59
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Anyone concidered the possibility she's refering to Palatine?
Many people think she predicted the death of Jango Fett as well, so why not?

Maybe there will simply always be a Sith Lord that is caoable of infiltrating an unsuspecting Universe and reset the chess pieces. We saw this with Palpatine, and recently Jacen Solo. Not to mention Darth Krayt.

Interesting topic though!

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Old 09-25-2007, 07:02 PM   #60
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Anyone concidered the possibility she's refering to Palatine?
I have little doubt that Palpatine/Sidious is a Traya by Kreia's definition. But then again, a Traya in the very, very distant future, that is - almost 4000 years later...

And we are to accept her word that there must always be a Darth Traya, there would have been several in between.


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Old 09-25-2007, 07:51 PM   #61
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I agree, I think that while Palpatine is a Traya, she was refering to the next 5-10 years.


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Old 09-25-2007, 10:22 PM   #62
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I figure brianna would make a good traya. from what she tells you, it seems betrayal is in her blood (mother betrayed the jedi orderfor love). She was betrayed by her own sisters and, ofcourse atris, in more than one way.


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Old 09-27-2007, 09:22 AM   #63
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I think she said there must always be a Darth Traya because she believes her role in the Galaxy to be important, but she was as much of a threat to the Sith as to the Jedi, and as the Sith continued to exist until the Legacy era (although destroyed, rebuilt and restructured on more than one occasion) IMO she may be the last Traya/Betrayer in her sense of the Title/Word.


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Old 09-27-2007, 06:43 PM   #64
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The thing about Briana being a Traya is it couldn't be canon, unless she was trained at some point later on. Remember in the game you only get one apprentice, I trained Bao Dur in mine.


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Old 09-30-2007, 02:34 PM   #65
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Quote:
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Remember in the game you only get one apprentice, I trained Bao Dur in mine.
What you mean? You can get your whole party turned into Jedi. Aside from the droids, Mandalore and the ones that are already affiliated to a Force-using group.


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Old 10-01-2007, 07:29 PM   #66
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i think the next darth traya could either be mical/atton if exile is female or brianna/visas if male

the reason i say mical/atton if exile is female or brianna/visas if male is because one of them was your love interest and the other would feel betrayed and then betray you in kotor 3(the betrayal could be the game's twist maybe?)

idk its kinda hard to explain especially since i forgot most of my idea as i was reading the thread to check if anybody had already posted my idea
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Old 10-02-2007, 07:59 AM   #67
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The quote she says could possibly refer to Darth Vader and Order 66...


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Old 10-02-2007, 06:34 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T3-M4
The quote she says could possibly refer to Darth Vader and Order 66...
But Darth Vader is Darth Vader, not Darth Traya... I think that Kreia/Traya said this as a metaphor, that there will always be someone that is betrayed and betrays back, not refering to anyone specific.

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Old 10-06-2007, 10:33 PM   #69
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I cannot really think of someone who would be the new Darth Traya. I really don't see it being Revan, that is contradictory to everything that is canon about him. I'm sure there will be a third one, but it will probably be a new character. Another note, I don't see Darth Vader as a Darth Traya with respect to the definition Kreia gives us in KOTOR II. Who betrayed Anakin? Sure in his mid the whole universe was out to get him, but no one actually betrayed him.
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Old 10-07-2007, 12:27 AM   #70
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Palpatine sort of betrayed him, Padme betrayed him (his point of view), Obi-Wan betrayed him(also from his point of view), and of course all of those pesky Imperial Officers betrayed/ failed him.

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Old 02-25-2008, 07:10 PM   #71
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I donít know but I think that maybe the next Darth Traya could be Brianna (The Handmaiden).... She was betrayed by Atris , she is part of the New raising order and she cant control her emotion very well So she is my number 1 option....

1)Brianna

if is not her then

2) Bastila

Or if is not her for last I think It will be Dustil

He thought that heís father betrayed him but then he "Forgave himĒ but then remember he did not decided to walk the path of a Jedi , he just leaved , where? We donít know and remember he was a Sith and trained in the ways of the dark side... so he is my 3 and final option ....
Dustil's Dead. He was that dead jedi in the secret cave in Korriban.
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Old 02-25-2008, 07:33 PM   #72
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Ever considered that there may be no third darth traya?


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Old 02-25-2008, 08:19 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Darth Zerin
Dustil's Dead. He was that dead jedi in the secret cave in Korriban.
No, he wasn't. That was Nebelish, he just looked like Dustil.



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Old 02-25-2008, 08:41 PM   #74
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I am already writing it in how the Exile is the third Darth Traya in my fanfiction. You will find out more about it later on.


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Old 02-27-2008, 12:10 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Zerin
Dustil's Dead. He was that dead jedi in the secret cave in Korriban.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miles Edgeworth
No, he wasn't. That was Nebelish, he just looked like Dustil.
Whoa, and this is where in Ludo Kressh's tomb? I don't remember seeing someone who looked like Dustil Onasi...
spoiler:
If you are talking about that dead jedi in the room that you can recieve unlimited experiance, that isn't Dustil.

Probably just answered my own question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RakataDark
I am already writing it in how the Exile is the third Darth Traya in my fanfiction. You will find out more about it later on.
I think that you did a great job on that too! Everyone, you should read RD's fic that is posted on his signature! It is very good/getting very good. So READ UP!

~Rev

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Old 02-27-2008, 06:04 AM   #76
Ztalker
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Just realised something...

"There must always be a Darth Traya."

And we got a 4000 years spanning Comic arc that has it's own Betraying Jedi!

Celeste Morne from the Knights of the Old Republic series!
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Celeste_Morne

..who starts a war and turns DS (watch the eyes)
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_...ctor%2C_Part_4

..and is still alive (although in statis) when Darth Vader finds her:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_...ctor%2C_Part_5

PS: I still can't get those url-tags to work. It's [url= *insert link*[ /url ]text that shows up [/ url] right? (Of course without all the spaces in between)

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Old 02-27-2008, 02:55 PM   #77
Salzella
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miles Edgeworth
No, he wasn't. That was Nebelish, he just looked like Dustil.
They originally planned it to be Dustil, but they cut that particular part of the game. he was originally meant to be mad and attack you
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Old 02-27-2008, 10:09 PM   #78
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There is another possibility.

1) Kreia is speaking literally about a Darth Traya always existing in some form or another.

2) She made plans to become a dark side force ghost in case Exile defeated her, and thus plans to survive her own death, and remain as Darth Traya.

3) As a force ghost/betrayer, she could already be planning to betray the next generation by misleading some other poor sap.


"If force is the game, the murderer wins over the pickpocket." Ayn Rand

"Justice is the midpoint between being treated unjustly, and treating others unjustly." Aristotle
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Old 02-28-2008, 12:35 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ztalker
PS: I still can't get those url-tags to work. It's [url= *insert link*[ /url ]text that shows up [/ url] right? (Of course without all the spaces in between)
You wrote it wrong. It goes like this... Text that you want to put in and of course without all of the spaces.

*Address for example : www.lucasforums.com* *Exept it isn't highlighted
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jvstice
1) Kreia is speaking literally about a Darth Traya always existing in some form or another.
2) She made plans to become a dark side force ghost in case Exile defeated her, and thus plans to survive her own death, and remain as Darth Traya.
3) As a force ghost/betrayer, she could already be planning to betray the next generation by misleading some other poor sap.
I due have to say that all that you stated could all be possiblities, but which do you think is the most likely?

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Old 02-28-2008, 12:45 AM   #80
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I do think she was planning on being a force ghost even before the final fight in K2, but truthfully, I don't think she was referring to herself in saying that there would always be someone who knows of betrayal as a Darth Traya. There are too many parallels and wierd inversions between her and Ben Kenobi for her not to become a Sith ghost.

But no. I do think her reference to there always being a Darth Traya was an oblique reference to something she wasn't a part of that Obsidian already had plans for. I don't think it makes sense for it t be Bao - Dur or Atton, because Kreia also said that their futures are shrouded in mystery to her. She spoke of the new Darth Traya with something approaching certainty.


"If force is the game, the murderer wins over the pickpocket." Ayn Rand

"Justice is the midpoint between being treated unjustly, and treating others unjustly." Aristotle
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