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Old 03-31-2007, 06:32 PM   #1
The Source
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KotOR 3 - No Obsidian Please!

KotOR 3 - No Obsidian Please!
After reading a not-so spoiler of NWN 2, I have to honestly say that Obsidian should not touch KotOR 3.

NWN 2 - Ending Spoilers: To Make My Points
spoiler:

1. KotOR II and NWN II are pretty much the same. Obsidian used their KotOR II influence system in NWN II. I hated the factor that in KotOR II the influence was just plainly in the way. They didn't do anything different. Grrr...

2. Cliff-hanger endings. Even though I have not gotten that far, I read up on this in a spolier. Grrr... Since the thread didn't have a warning, you can imagine how pissed I was. Lol.. Well, I get the feeling that Obsidian cannot write a story for beans. Yeah, they have impressive design skills, but their story telling is rather weak. I cannot believe that this is the second game that I bought from them, which ended in a cliff-hanger.

***Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.***
I am shamed.


If Obsidian doesn't have storytelling down to a science, I think they should just stay away from sequal games. Personally, I have bought the last Obsidian game for the rest of my life. All I hope is that Lucas Arts will not go to them to finish the trilogy. Grrr...

My ranting:: Censored :::
spoiler:

I think Obsidian is a group of hacks who cannot create a comprehensive game, and they need to rely on what other companies (BioWare) have done before them. Grrr... Otherwords, they can't make a game from scratch if their life depended on it. Developers send their franchises to Obsidian to perish.
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Old 03-31-2007, 06:54 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacCorp
1. KotOR II and NWN II are pretty much the same. Obsidian used their KotOR II influence system in NWN II. I hated the factor that in KotOR II the influence was just plainly in the way. They didn't do anything different. Grrr...
This is hardly something new. RPGs have been keeping track of player reputation and how major NPCs and party members feel about the main character for a long time. Planescape:Torment, the Baldur's Gate games, Deus Ex, Hordes of the Underdark, VtM:Bloodlines all did this in one form or another. The only "innovation" in KOTOR2:TSL and subsequently NWN2 is that you get a game message informing you how your behavior has affected others.

Personally I think it's a good thing in RPGs when what you say in dialog matters and can have consequences down the line. It makes dialog more important to the game and story than some quick plot exposition you can click through between the battles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacCorp
2. Cliff-hanger endings. Even though I have not gotten that far, I read up on this in a spolier. Grrr... Since the thread didn't have a warning, you can imagine how pissed I was. Lol.. Well, I get the feeling that Obsidian cannot write a story for beans.
I won't argue that the ending in NWN2 was quite poor, and that the TSL ending could have been better. Overall it seems to be rather hard to make good endings in games; I've played very few games where I've been satisifed by the ending.

I will however disagree that the Obsidian people can't tell a story. The story in NWN2 was light years better than the one in NWN1. 75% of the story in KOTOR2:TSL was interesting. The NWN2 story was interested right up until you had just beat the final battle. Planescape:Torment (worked on by some people now working at Obsidian) had one of the most interesting stories I've seen in any CRPG, though it was soiled by an awful ending. VtM:Bloodlines (worked on by some people now working at Obsidian) has an interesting story, and multiple endings, some of which were OK, others which were less so (though you deserve them if you play as an evil bastard ).

I think the Obsidian people are good at telling a story, just not good at finishing it in a satisfactory manner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacCorp
If Obsidian doesn't have storytelling down to a science, I think they should just stay away from sequal games. Personally, I have bought the last Obsidian game for the rest of my life.
There are a lot worse games having been released than KOTOR2:TSL and NWN2. You just won't hear about them unless people mention them as a warning example. If you won't buy anything Obsidian produces that's your choice, and potentially loss. I prefer to evaluate a game based on how that game is made, not on the past track record of the company who have made it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MacCorp
I think Obsidian is a group of hacks who cannot create a comprehensive game, and they need to rely on what other companies (BioWare) have done before them.
I think Obsidian is a new company that will need to get some money in their coffers before they can get started on major projects of their own. They were fortunate in that they through their connections managed to get the job of making fairly high-profile game sequels right from the start. Few new game studios might get such a chance. Many of their employees are veterans from other companies, but they are still fairly new as a group. Bioware have been at this for more than a decade as a single, stable company, so it is unsurprising that they might be able to pull off bigger projects at this time.

Personally I reserve final judgment about Obsidian Entertainment until I see what they can deliver when they have settled in more as a team.

Last edited by stoffe; 03-31-2007 at 08:40 PM.
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Old 03-31-2007, 07:55 PM   #3
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@stoffe - You make some good arguments about them being a freshmen company. The only thing I have to disagree with is 'I prefer to evaluate a game based on how that game is made, not on the past track record of the company who have made it.' . Personally, I believe that a company's past track record is a good measure of how well they will do in the future. I understand that is how you approach games, so I respect your comments as to how you evaluate games. After obtaining two games from the same company, with what I believe are questionable flaws, I have to say they have built a contriversial reputaton thus far. At this poiint, I am mostly drawing from the cliff-hanger endings.
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Old 03-31-2007, 08:01 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacCorp
The only thing I have to disagree with is 'I prefer to evaluate a game based on how that game is made, not on the past track record of the company who have made it.' . Personally, I believe that a company's past track record is a good measure of how well they will do in the future.
You don't think game developers are able to hone their skills with time and practice, improve, learn from past mistakes and evolve beyond them in their future projects? I don't think people are quite so static in what they can accomplish that you have to judge the present or future by what has happened in the past.
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Old 03-31-2007, 08:15 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe
You don't think game developers are able to hone their skills with time and practice, improve, learn from past mistakes and evolve beyond them in their future projects? I don't think people are quite so static in what they can accomplish that you have to judge the present or future by what has happened in the past.
You are persuasive. I can see where you are going with this. However, if Obsidian were to create KotOR III now, with two contriversial projects finished, I will have to walk away from the game. Since they are not seasoned enough, KotOR III would look like entery-level work. I don't think I could stomach another disappointment. Lets say they tackled KotOR III in five years from now, I may be persuaded in buying their product. Since they would have had two other games in their portfolio, plus some 'skill honing', I would be more convinced. At the moment anyway, I have to judge them on KotOR II and NWN II, for they are the only two in the portfolio. With their current skill level, I do not believe Obsidian would be right for the job.
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Old 03-31-2007, 09:38 PM   #6
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I respectfully disagree utterly. I haven't played NW2 but I think TSL story telling and plot even as is, is superior to the K1 plot which was just copied from the OT.

I'm sure we'll agree to disagree on this



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Old 03-31-2007, 10:31 PM   #7
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I think Obsidian is very skilled at making the game mechanics work well. Both TSL and NWN2 greatly improved upon their predecessors' playability. I also think they write good stories. They just end them terribly. I would gladly buy another Obsidian game if it looks good. I will just enter in with low expectations about the ending so I won't be disappointed.


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Old 03-31-2007, 11:07 PM   #8
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What jonathan7 said.

Seriously, I hope that anyone but Obsidian does not make KotOR III.
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Old 04-01-2007, 12:32 AM   #9
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'I prefer to evaluate a game based on how that game is made, not on the past track record of the company who have made it.'
Past track record does tell you what the future will do. It does act as a predictor, so I have to side with MacCorp.

But, let takes MacCorp's logic to its conclusion. If I didslike the game made by one company, then I'll just boycott that company's future games.

I hate Bioware. They made a good game (K1), but they had a very long level of Taris, it looks far too happy, it's a total rip-off of Star Wars, etc. Seeing how K1 turned out, I decide that I will boycott every Bioware game. So long Jade Empire and that Sega MMORPG. You messed up K1, so I won't buy your games again!

I want Obisidan to make K3 though. The storyline of the True Sith may need to end, and the 'echoes' ideas sounds neat. It is dark, morose, and far more interesting than K1.


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Old 04-01-2007, 01:13 AM   #10
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Well, Obsidian had a much better designing, but when it comes to immersive gameplay . . .

BIOWARE!


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Old 04-01-2007, 05:48 AM   #11
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I'll cast my vote for Obsidian as well for pretty much the same reasons as already stated. I haven't played NWN2 (because I loathe D&D 3e), but for both NWN2 and TSL, Obsidian were doing first projects for another publisher. So they don't have much of an established working relationship with those companies, nor can they determine development schedules.

Besides, plot was not TSL's problem. The plot was very, very unusual and interesting for Star Wars, but it kept the Star Wars mood and mythos. Primarily the game lacked polish and finishing touches. I don't think that will happen again if Obsidian does K3. Lucasarts took flak enough over TSL to allow that situation to repeat itself, methinks.


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Old 04-01-2007, 06:04 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe

VtM:Bloodlines (worked on by some people now working at Obsidian) has an interesting story, and multiple endings, some of which were OK, others which were less so (though you deserve them if you play as an evil bastard ).

Do you really think the few guys from Vampire influenced Obsidian's story telling all that much? Are they even responsible for story designing, or are they just simple programmers?
Imo vampire has a far better story (including the endings ) than TSL for example...


Anyway: So far, Obsidian did not do a very good job. I have to say a game made by them from scratch before I can really judge them though..
But the sequels they made didn't impress me all that much.

Still, since Bioware won't do Kotor III, Obsidian is the only other choice.
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Old 04-01-2007, 06:44 AM   #13
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look it's because of Obsidian KOTOR2 was made. When the development of KOTOR2 was being a while, Lucasarts started to leave the project and wanted to quit it if Obsidian didn't want to develop it anymore.

But Obsidian wanted and continued, but then Lucasarts wanted to release the project. So Obisidian was made to finish it quickly, (cut a lot)...

If you don't like the story, blame Lucasarts for that. I mean it's not Obsidian or perhaps even Bioware that decides the story, that's the guys at Lucasarts.

So I love Obsidian for finishing KOTOR II.


Meh...
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Old 04-01-2007, 06:51 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord2
look it's because of Obsidian KOTOR2 was made. When the development of KOTOR2 was being a while, Lucasarts started to leave the project and wanted to quit it if Obsidian didn't want to develop it anymore.

But Obsidian wanted and continued, but then Lucasarts wanted to release the project. So Obisidian was made to finish it quickly, (cut a lot)...

If you don't like the story, blame Lucasarts for that. I mean it's not Obsidian or perhaps even Bioware that decides the story, that's the guys at Lucasarts.

So I love Obsidian for finishing KOTOR II.
Actually, the story is Chris Avellone's, and he is one of the founding members of Obsidian. Yes, Lucasarts has to approve of the plot, since it is their intellectual property, but the story was indeed originated by Obsidian's Chris Avellone. Personally I thought that plot was much more interesting than KotOR's.


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Old 04-01-2007, 10:07 AM   #15
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As I've said all along BIOWARE are awesome and K1 is my fav game, but, I think obsidian need to finish what they started, they deserve a chance to get their story told and complete the trilogy.

Also, I know atton provides some comic relief, but can we have a few more smiles in K3, I have to go on anti-depressant's every time I play through TSL


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Old 04-01-2007, 03:11 PM   #16
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Why does everyone hate Obsidian because of TSL? I like Obsidian and blame LucasArts for the state of TSL, not Obsidian. BioWare don't deserve to return to the KOTOR series and I doubt they will. Obsidian should finish what they started like adamqd said in his post.
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Old 04-01-2007, 05:15 PM   #17
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Certainly not everyone hates Obsidian and sure we don't all blame them for TSL. I don't and several other people around here don't either, since we know that TSL had a terrific plot that was hurt because Lucasarts rushed the development schedule.

Some people blame Obisidian or dislike them for their games, but only some.


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Old 04-01-2007, 05:40 PM   #18
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I actually thought the influence system was much better implemented in NWN 2. Don't judge it unless you've played it. The influence system is worthwhile if it actually makes a significant difference at the end of the game.

(NWN 2 Spoilers)
spoiler:
In NWN 2, you actually got to see your companions turn against you - based on how you treated them - and then you had to kill them. That's how the ending of TSL should have gone, and how it almost certainly would have gone, if LA hadn't rushed the devs, in order to get the game out in time for Christmas.


...
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Old 04-01-2007, 10:51 PM   #19
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I'll go ahead and cast my vote for Obsidian. They did a far superior job than BioWare did, in my opinion, and I don't really think I need to explain. Just look at the TSL Vs. KOTOR thread in the Telos Tourist Bureau and look at The Architect's and Jediphile's posts. They pretty much sum up my opinions.

And let's not let this turn into another KotOR vs. TSL thread. I think we all know we've had enough of them.


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Old 04-02-2007, 06:13 PM   #20
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As I said a long, long time ago, I hope that Obsidian makes Kotor III as well (assuming it happens in my lifetime). However, after having played NWN 2 to near completion, I sincerely hope that they do a MUCH better job.

Complaints? The absolutely most linear game I have ever played, where you literally go from one plot quest to the next, replete with blinking arrows on your map telling you where to go. NO ability to explore the surrounding area, or even the IMMEDIATE area- sometimes you can only enter areas when the plot allows. Can't kill/provoke neutral NPCs. FORCED to have certain party members for extended periods of time and can't even get access to many of the available npcs until late in the game. Skills that just plain didn't work (like sneak, among others). I could think of more, but think that's good enough for the time being.
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Old 04-02-2007, 06:51 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoffe
I think the Obsidian people are good at telling a story, just not good at finishing it in a satisfactory manner.
Agreed! I honestly feel (is this some sort of internet taboo?) that Obsidian make better games - so far as story and quality of writing is concerned - than BioWare. They just can't finish what they start.

A simple rule I employ is: BioWare is better at polish and Obsidian is better at crafting a plot. The positive and negative aspects of the two companies balance out to put them as equal in my eyes. But if we were to get an Obsidian game and put it up against any post-NWN BioWare game (when Obsidian actually existed) and strip away all but the plot and the dialogue, the Obsidian game would win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ztemplarz
Complaints? The absolutely most linear game I have ever played, where you literally go from one plot quest to the next, replete with blinking arrows on your map telling you where to go.
Non-linear gameplay is often sacrificed for the sake of story telling. NWN2's plot was gripping enough to me that the lack of branching plot-lines didn't bother me so much.
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Old 04-02-2007, 11:15 PM   #22
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Just think if BioWare and Obsidian were to merge into one company. Now how do you think that would go?


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Old 04-03-2007, 01:21 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darca Lar
Just think if BioWare and Obsidian were to merge into one company. Now how do you think that would go?
It would be good, because for all those Obsidian haters (Not me), to say that Obsidian write the unfinished plot and BioWare clean it up.

Just think what if BioWare wrote the plot to KOTOR II. It would probably be worse than what they started. Obsidian can continue plots better.
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Old 04-03-2007, 05:24 AM   #24
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Do you really think the plot was that bad in Kotor I? Kotor one was a huge success and received top ratings...

It was not innovative, that I admit, but it was still interesting and exciting.

Am I the only one who wants non-story improvements for Kotor III? Like gameplay, graphic and so on?
Story is definitly a major thing in Rpgs, but there are other equally important aspects imo. And apart from story, Obsidian didn't do such an impressive job, unfortunately.
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Old 04-03-2007, 05:38 AM   #25
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You know I just had a thought. There is this new game developer company named "Certain Affinity". They are made up of some seasoned game devs and a few ex-Bungie devs. Bungie, you know, the makers of a little game franchise known as Halo, Halo 2 and Halo 3

Certain affinity just made some new maps for Halo 2, as an outside project to make some cash. The maps look absolutely beautiful. I actually think they have a very quality team and it would be interesting to give them a shot at a game like KOTOR III.

Just my opinion and thought.


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Old 04-03-2007, 09:37 AM   #26
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Quote:
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superior to the K1 plot which was just copied from the OT.
Luke is Vader????

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Old 04-03-2007, 11:59 AM   #27
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^^^



I think people use any exuse to beat down KOTOR because its not cool to like it. Its as if TSL is "the thinking man's" star wars or somthing.

Regarding things resembling the OT, GL has always said Star Wars is about good V's evil, reacurring themes & motifs, Greek tragedy, both games have this.

lets not get picky about who does it, but WHEN there gonna do it


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Old 04-03-2007, 01:01 PM   #28
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Well, NWNII have such an ending which may dut to an expansion pack in the future.

But kotor II has no expansion pack planned definitely.

TO be fair though Obsidian did a good job on the game. While I am not sure about the way the do the ending(its bad, cause a 15 second flick might already solve the problem) Obsidian did a good job telling the story, on places where they have enough time doing it. The majority of the story is nice(barring a few incomplete spots) all the way, up til the whole Alive Jedi-Masters-screw-you-over thingy. Well that means they are capable to make a good game, barring time.

And no, please don't beat down on kotor1. The game is great, and the mirror to OT is nice and subtle, yet you KNOW they are doing it deliberately. It is just different.
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:12 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
Luke is Vader????
Dear lord! That's a plot twist and a half.

On the topic of KotOR copying the original trilogy. Hmm... it is filled with lovely Star Wars clichés which is why it works . But I don't think the entire game is a mirror for the films; it is just a classic good vs. evil tale - or in the case of a dark side player... evil vs. evil (but the duality is not as nice there ).
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Old 04-03-2007, 08:17 PM   #30
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What have you got against Obsidian did very well with Kotor after being the prequel to a different company!

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Old 04-03-2007, 11:00 PM   #31
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I personally like K2, but the ending was about the equivalent of the last two movies for the Matrix Trilogy...rushed through. They just didn't take the time to put together the best ending to the sequel.


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Old 04-03-2007, 11:09 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darca Lar
I personally like K2, but the ending was about the equivalent of the last two movies for the Matrix Trilogy...rushed through. They just didn't take the time to put together the best ending to the sequel.
I personally see no real similarities between the endings of the last two Matrix movies and TSL's. I for one thought the endings of all three Matrix movies were quite good. if my avatar is any indication...

If LucasArts goes with Obsidian Entertainment as the KotOR 3 developer then we'll just have to hope that Obsidian takes lessons learned from TSL's development to heart. At this point I don't have a stinkin' clue as to who will develop KotOR 3 so I'm not going to get too worked up about this subject.
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Old 04-03-2007, 11:16 PM   #33
Darca Lar
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I say the last two were rushed through because they made them both within around one year's time. And it didn't seem like they took the time to make any alterations to create a really good trilogy. But I'm getting off topic...


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Old 04-04-2007, 05:53 PM   #34
SilentScope001
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If nobody actually make K3, I'll be okay with that.

We all already know the ending, the True Sith gets genocided. The End. Bioware and Obisidan doesn't have to make the game if we all know what will happen next and if there is no plot twist whatsoever within it.

I'll be more happy if K3 was made, but if they do mess K3 up, even worse than what some people believe that TSL was messed up, well, better no game than a bad game.


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Old 04-04-2007, 07:09 PM   #35
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I like Both Games and I think Obsidian Should be given the job for KotOR III.Like stoffe said People learn from their past including big companies.The Storyline was good for TSL the ending could have been better like if you actually saw ur character go after revan and he/she met up with Revan and depending on both of their allignments you either joined forces or had one last battle to the death.But I know K3 WILL be better than the first 2


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Old 04-04-2007, 07:49 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
We all already know the ending, the True Sith gets genocided. The End. Bioware and Obisidan doesn't have to make the game if we all know what will happen next and if there is no plot twist whatsoever within it.
I think you are confusing the true sith with the sith species, we don't know exactly who or what the true sith are yet. And since there's a sith empire around in one form or another until their defeat by the Jedi 1000 years before the films, when the rule of two is established, then there's plenty of scope to play with.

That's assuming that the true sith are the main plot of the game.

If Obsidian stick with the formula of the first two games and use an OT ending then they should do alright as long as it doesn't include Ewoks.

Though which ever company gets the contract I hope they create the engine from scratch, designed from the ground up for a Star Wars game rather than modify an existing engine.
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Old 04-04-2007, 08:19 PM   #37
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I really don't care who makes K3 as long as the story lives up to the previous two.


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Old 04-05-2007, 01:13 AM   #38
SilentScope001
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Quote:
I think you are confusing the true sith with the sith species, we don't know exactly who or what the true sith are yet. And since there's a sith empire around in one form or another until their defeat by the Jedi 1000 years before the films, when the rule of two is established, then there's plenty of scope to play with.
Nope. No matter what happens, no matter whom the True Sith are: The True Sith will be defeated, and will be destroyed. They may come back to live later like Darth Sion (but for now, they're as good as dead).

What? You are going to have Revan, Exile, and the Jedi Padawan find out, "Oops. You lose!" Er...nope.

Main reason K3 looks to be disappointing, because it already got a predictable ending, that the heroes win. AGAIN. They better have a pretty good plot twist, and maybe have an ending where the True Sith takes over.


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"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here
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Old 04-05-2007, 07:37 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Main reason K3 looks to be disappointing, because it already got a predictable ending, that the heroes win. AGAIN.
Most games are like this, so it would hardly be something new. I think there are very few players of KOTOR(1) who got past the opening StarWars text scroll without expecting to confront and defeat Darth Malak at the end of the game.

But the end is not everything. The journey towards the end is usually more interesting, since that's where you will spend most of your time playing the game. Even if you know how a game is going to end it can still offer interesting and fun gameplay before you get there, in my opinion.
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Old 04-05-2007, 06:47 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Nope. No matter what happens, no matter whom the True Sith are: The True Sith will be defeated, and will be destroyed. They may come back to live later like Darth Sion (but for now, they're as good as dead).
Not really, the plot need not encompass the entire force of the true sith. They might not even be the main focus of the plot, just the starting situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Main reason K3 looks to be disappointing, because it already got a predictable ending, that the heroes win. AGAIN.
As stoffe says it would hardly be something new. How many single player story driven games are there where the objective isn't to win or there's no hope of winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
They better have a pretty good plot twist, and maybe have an ending where the True Sith takes over.
If the game doesn't take place in Republic space then anything is possible, as long as it doesn't involve the destruction of all life in the galaxy.
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