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Old 04-29-2007, 03:32 PM   #41
Darca Lar
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But you can't confirm that Nihilus was indeed Exile's master, right? Can you even prove that Exile's master was even part of the War?


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Old 04-29-2007, 04:54 PM   #42
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But you can't confirm that Nihilus was indeed Exile's master, right? Can you even prove that Exile's master was even part of the War?
No and no. That can only be speculation, since the only time the exile's master is ever mentioned is in the holorecorded discussion between Vrook and Vandar.


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Old 04-29-2007, 06:16 PM   #43
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But I still think that maybe Atris was the Exile's master, if not Kavar. It would explain why she would have feelings for him if he was male.
No. Atris might have been a Jedi Master, but she never trained a Padawan.

Exile: Atris has never trained a Padawan, and she will pass her ignorance on to others.

or

Exile: Atris knows nothing of training Jedi.

These are two options that the Jedi Exile can tell the Handmaidens in their discussions after her first encounter with Atris on Telos.

And as discussed earlier, Kavar was not the Exile's master. With what we've been given, we do not know who the Exile's master was.

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Old 04-29-2007, 06:38 PM   #44
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Still one thing bugs me a bit about this . Kreia not knowing ?
Really , Kreia planned about much as everything that is happening around the Exile , wouldn't she had notice something about Nihilus since she "trained" him .

And we don't know how long they where on Mal-V .

But then again , this might prove your theory aswell .
If Kreia sensed something "weird" about Nihilus and used that "feeling" to find her tool for revenge : the Exile .

She admid's at the end of the game aswell that she finannly understands .
This might aswell include this relationship between Nihilus and the Exile .

Anyway , it makes we wonder what obsidian would have done if they had the change to finish their game . This could have been a one of their plots they dropped .

So for wich game are you working now Jediphile ? Writing plots to amaze the unwarry masses ?


TIQUILAAAAAAAA
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Old 04-29-2007, 07:11 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Quanon
Still one thing bugs me a bit about this . Kreia not knowing ?
Really , Kreia planned about much as everything that is happening around the Exile , wouldn't she had notice something about Nihilus since she "trained" him .
Who says that Kreia doesn't know? I certainly don't...

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Originally Posted by Quanon
And we don't know how long they where on Mal-V .
Not exactly, no, but it seems to me that it was after the Battle of Malachor V in 3960 BBY. Though how much they spent there until the planet was (canonically) destroyed in 3951 BBY is unknown. I guess it could have been all nine years - I certainly think it was for Nihilus - but there are references to Darth Revan using it as a base himself, so it might not have been until Revan was captured and reprogrammed by the jedi council in 3957 BBY. That would still give them up to six years, though.

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But then again , this might prove your theory aswell .
If Kreia sensed something "weird" about Nihilus and used that "feeling" to find her tool for revenge : the Exile .

She admid's at the end of the game aswell that she finannly understands .
This might aswell include this relationship between Nihilus and the Exile .
It might, although I suspect she knew all along. I've always found it a little too convenient that she just "happened" find the only being in the universe that could undo Nihilus just before Sion managed to hunt down and kill that being (the exile). I think Kreia knew the exile could destroy Nihilus with his special ability (wound in the force) even then. Whether she was aware of the special connection that I muse about here is uncertain, but frankly I wouldn't be surprised. Kreia ALWAYS knows more than she says!

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Originally Posted by Quanon
Anyway , it makes we wonder what obsidian would have done if they had the change to finish their game . This could have been a one of their plots they dropped .
I doubt this was ever intended to be revealed in TSL, but it might have been planned as a revelation in KotOR3. The connection between exile and Nihilus is being pointed to in several places, yet I've never seen cut content that sheds more light on it, let alone tells us who Nihilus really was.

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Originally Posted by Quanon
So for wich game are you working now Jediphile ? Writing plots to amaze the unwarry masses ?
Ha! I wish...


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Old 04-30-2007, 05:25 AM   #46
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...or he's now looking for ideas for a Kotor 2 fan-fic that will dominate the Entertainment Center forever! Oh noes!

Right...to the point:
Found several quotes, that could be....indirect links to the theory as well. Sometimes they're nothing more then little puns or insults, but when interprented otherwise, they support the theory:

"To have fallen so far and learned nothing - that is your failing."
Kreai to Darth Sion. If she's talking about the Exile and Nihlus here (remember; Nihilus and Sion still work together at this point), she might mean that she has found a new 'weapon' something that will destroy Sion and Nihilus. 'you have learned nothing' might mean Sion hasn't learned about the Exile yet, which will be his downfall, thus his 'failing.'

"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal."
Obvious: Exile is canonically LS, and Nihilus DS; a contrast. And we see this in the game, when the Exile becomes stronger after beating Nihilus.

"Our path brought us here for a reason..." (When landing on Telos)
Obviously again; Nihilus will attack Telos. If they would have landed on, for example, Tatooine, they might not have found out about the Jedi on Telos, Nihilus and the rest.

"The Jedi Academy on Dantooine is nothing more than a crater that echoes with the ghosts of dead Jedi. And the Jedi Temple on Coruscant lies empty. The waters in the Room of a Thousand Fountains have fallen still, in reverence to the fallen Jedi... and those now lost."
Wait...many have fallen...but who are/is the Jedi that are lost? Link to Exile/Nihilus?

"Know that much may happen here, but above all, do not forget this—you may trust in me. We cradle each other's lives, and what threatens one of us, threatens us both. And if you find you cannot trust me, trust in your training. Trust in yourself. Never doubt what you have done. All your decisions have brought you to this point."
Wait...she betrays the whole party, and the Exile is left with his training; the training build around his wound. And he uses that to beat Nihilus...hmm...

To conclude: Just read through Kreia's dialogue, and you'll find much, if not all quotes supporting this theory.
Go on, very interesting discussion

PS: Jediphile, (Jim) any news on the Neverwinter Nights 2 expansion?

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Old 04-30-2007, 11:42 AM   #47
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"The Jedi Academy on Dantooine is nothing more than a crater that echoes with the ghosts of dead Jedi. And the Jedi Temple on Coruscant lies empty. The waters in the Room of a Thousand Fountains have fallen still, in reverence to the fallen Jedi... and those now lost."
That quote refers to the Lost Jedi, which are: Bao-Dur, Mira, Atton, Handmadien, Disciple, and Visas. These people are going to form a brand new Jedi Order.

The Exile is not one of the Lost Jedi, and that is important. "You are not Jedi/Sith, not truly. And that is why I choose you."


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Old 04-30-2007, 11:52 AM   #48
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Another thing that only just occurred to me based on the discussion on whether Nihilus or Revan would win a fight...

Nihilus sensed the masters on Katarr and was drawn to them, which fits with Kreia telling us that he is drawn to powerful forceusers. Now, Nihilus also senses the exile early in the plot, but it just occurred to me that there's a problem there... Because how can Nihilus sense the exile, when the exile has no force bond?!?

Indeed, we could argue that the reason you cannot choose your party when you attack Nihilus is because of force bonds. Visas can "slip in" as Nihilus' apprentice, while Mandalore clearly has no force powers. But what the exile? Shouldn't Nihilus be able to sense him and be drawn to him? I should think so, since he has grown in power, yet the exile becoming more powerful (by gaining levels of experience) is not a factor to Nihilus, only his alignment seems to be. why? Okay, so the answer would seem to be obvious in that the exile has no force bond of his own, and so Nihilus cannot sense him. But if that's the case, then how can Nihilus sense him through the force early in the game, when he sends out Visas to find the exile? The only reason I can think of is that by embracing an extreme philosophy - be it LS or DS - the exile is finally moving away from his status of apathy, which caused the problem in the first place.


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Old 04-30-2007, 11:57 AM   #49
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Hmm , not sure if what Kreia says is the whole truth . I"m very sure she knew about the Exile's superbonding . But Sion stay's an outright threath .

If Sion had killed the Exile would Nihilus survive ? Since he is a piece of the Exile , would that be the same connection as the Exile formed with Kreia ? Then again Sion would win , so I don't think he ponders about that ... or Kreia and Sion played together , since Sion easly returns to Krieas bidding .

And I"m sure Kreia was powerfull enough to stop the Exile from sucking himself up like a leech to her . Its a strange game she plays , maybe she had some other plans aswell , besides killing the Force .

She was one of Revan's masters ... what does she know about Revan , that she wouldn't tell us . Being on Mal V she could have easly visited the unkown regions ...

Darn that wicth
This theory gives more questions then anwsers


TIQUILAAAAAAAA
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Old 04-30-2007, 11:59 AM   #50
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Shouldn't Nihilus be able to sense him and be drawn to him? I should think so, since he has grown in power, yet the exile becoming more powerful (by gaining levels of experience) is not a factor to Nihilus, only his alignment seems to be. why?
Incorrect. If you remain a Grey Jedi, Nihilus will sense you eventually. When you get a certain number of alignment points, then Nihilus sense you. So, if you get 50 LS points and then 50 DS Points, you can remain totally Grey but Nihilus finally figure out you exist, while you still remain apatehic. In fact, if you get no alignment points, by the time you complete 3 out of the 4 planets where you find the Jedi Masters, Nihilus automatically sense you and send off Visas.

I interpet it as saying Nihilus sense you because of your rising power, due to how much Force you are sucking up in order to fuel you. The silly developers want to have it be varied so that you see Nihilus in different times, so they had it triggered to occur in these sort of situations. I don't think this case would help you much, and it might be best to toss this evidence.

Jediphile, you already got enough evidence to support you. You don't need to pile more upon it. Just take a rest, and focus on something more important, like how Kreia is going to return as a Force Ghost.


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Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
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Old 04-30-2007, 12:07 PM   #51
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Jediphile, you already got enough evidence to support you. You don't need to pile more upon it. Just take a rest, and focus on something more important, like how Kreia is going to return as a Force Ghost.
Maybe she"ll do the Palpatine trick , CLONES !!!

Kriea : I have returned , you didn't think I would , now didn't ya ya PUNK !!! ...goes rambeling one

Uhm , the first Lord after you in the game is Sion , and very quickly the Exile connects to Kriea ( a power full Sith / Jedi ) and to Atton .

Couldn't Kriea be sending somesort of waves herself throw the Force ?
She's good at masking herself , but she's a betrayer ! And then again she cleary leads the Sith herself to the Exile . A bit fast to what she was planning but it worked and wasn't Sion working with Nihilus ?


TIQUILAAAAAAAA
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Old 04-30-2007, 07:02 PM   #52
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Isn't this theory possible as well? The Exile's master chose the dark side on Malachor V, and went with Revan. Through a force bond Nihilus's essence was tranfered, and though the Exile's master retained physical form for some time, eventually the Nihilus we know now would be birthed, the force devouring his true form. Really I believe it could go any way, it's depends on how Obsidien wants to make Nihilus's master seem, seceptible to the dark side, or willing to die to stay true. A factor in both theories that would be a problem, wouldn't the tortured soul of the Exile's master still exist in some form?
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Old 04-30-2007, 07:55 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by -MetalMilitia-
Isn't this theory possible as well? The Exile's master chose the dark side on Malachor V, and went with Revan. Through a force bond Nihilus's essence was tranfered, and though the Exile's master retained physical form for some time, eventually the Nihilus we know now would be birthed, the force devouring his true form. Really I believe it could go any way, it's depends on how Obsidien wants to make Nihilus's master seem, seceptible to the dark side, or willing to die to stay true. A factor in both theories that would be a problem, wouldn't the tortured soul of the Exile's master still exist in some form?
The problem I see in this is that the description of the Nihilus mask tells us that he did die and was reborn on Malachor V, which would suggest that he was not one of Revan's close followers, since they were the ones targeted for death by Revan on Malachor V.


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Old 04-30-2007, 10:55 PM   #54
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True, I must have overlooked that. Anyway you have some great ideas and logic skills, you should write the storylines for full conversion mods, if you don't already. And on the topic of if this theory is right and the story is spoiled, there would be just as much of a twist that some random person could completely get into Obsidian's head and pull out their storyline. And if he is only partially right you would play it a few times to the end just to see how close he was.
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Old 05-01-2007, 03:21 AM   #55
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Great story Jediphile! I wouldn't be surprised if it was intented that way. TSL and especially Nihilus makes much more sense to me now. Thanks!

I have a few questions though, you seem to understand TSL better than most

1.) If the Exile is immune to Nihilus' powers, why is there something "You safed Telos..and yourself!" in the questlog after you defeat Nihilus? It that just a minor mistake, or does it have some deeper meaning?

2.) I don't understand how Jedi on Malachor were forced to decide between going DS and death. How can that work? What exactly does the Mass Shadow Generator do? Or it it impossible for Jedi to walk on the surface of Malachor and not get corrupted?

3.) How come Mandalore survives an encounter with Nihilus? He's not immune.

4.) What if Nihilus eliminated the Exile? Would he be gone as well?

Thanks to anyone who can answer those.
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Old 05-01-2007, 06:29 AM   #56
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Jediphile has a board meeting at Obsidian, can I help you?
(Don't know the game as good as Jediphile, but I still think I can be of some help )

1: He isn't immune, but Nihilus strongest power (eating force power) simply didn't work. He kind of fell down onf the ground after he tried, whilst Visas and Mandalore were already incapcitated and ready to be drained.
The Exile was about to meet the same fate, but luckily it didn't work. I think that's one side of the story..

2: Like HK once said, the Jedi at Malachor suffered tremendous emotional stress. They killed and slaughtered Mandalorians, and became troumatised. Remember one of the answer options the Exile has in a conversation with Handmaiden? "I don't want to talk about it, neither should you" or something alike.
So they had 2 options there:
a) Live with it, and become like Revan (Alignment change, etiques and morals scr*wed up)
b) Die and don't bare the shame.
c) The Exile was out...which is horrible.
The Shadow generator just pulls the planet out in parts, same what happens at the end of the game. It just destroys the whole planet
And, because of all the deaths and alignment matters embedded in the planet because of the war, like you said, no Jedi can walk there and go away unchanged.

3: Like said before, he was alread catched in a static field, like Visas, but because Nihilus lost his grip after trying to eat the Exile, they were released, and Nihilus didn't have the power to do it again.
Other then that, Mandalore has one hell of a lot experience with Jedi. *hint hint*

4. Interesting...very interesting...and a good question indeed.
I think Nihilus would wonder, and find out he didn't become stronger. (Since the Exile doesn't have Force power himself. He siphons it out of party members.) He'd just wonder, and maybe even find out the Exile was using the same siphoning/power draining technique like him, only on much smaller scale. He'd then probably go and beat the cr*ap out of Kreia to find out the truth.

Or he'd just die, since he killed his 'maker.'

Hope this can be of help....

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Old 05-01-2007, 06:43 AM   #57
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4. Interesting...very interesting...and a good question indeed.
I think Nihilus would wonder, and find out he didn't become stronger. (Since the Exile doesn't have Force power himself. He siphons it out of party members.) He'd just wonder, and maybe even find out the Exile was using the same siphoning/power draining technique like him, only on much smaller scale. He'd then probably go and beat the cr*ap out of Kreia to find out the truth.
Uh , Kreia would be dead as she was strongly bonded to the Exile , but I'm sure she knows how to ends this bond . She wouldn't be that stupid since she knows Nihilus .

Then again the question remains how strong is the bond between the broken parts of the Exile . If it's like with Kreia then Nihilus would die almost the same time the Exile does .

But then again the Exile doesn't die when he slays Nihilus ... he just like absorbs it back . Weird stuff , really weird

Where's the master of this theory , I'm sure he has more deep thoughts about this .

PLease great master Jediphile , enlighten us with your wisdom of TSL ,


TIQUILAAAAAAAA
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Old 05-01-2007, 06:48 AM   #58
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Kreia wouldn't die...

Since, according to this theory, Kreia isn't bonded to the Exile at all. Remember, she 'kills' the Exile at tje Enclave, without trouble. And when the Exile is severly damaged at the Jek-Jek Tar, by the lightning, she's walking in there, without trouble, to recruit Hanharr.

Right...maybe it's a good time to formulate a clear theory, cause this is getting confusing

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PLease great master Jediphile , enlighten us with your wisdom of TSL ,
Seconded.

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Old 05-01-2007, 07:22 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
1.) If the Exile is immune to Nihilus' powers, why is there something "You safed Telos..and yourself!" in the questlog after you defeat Nihilus? It that just a minor mistake, or does it have some deeper meaning?
1. The Exile is immune to Nihilus’ super drain power, but not his lightsaber! Hence he/she did save himself/herself, by stopping Nihilus before he could cut him/her down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
2.) I don't understand how Jedi on Malachor were forced to decide between going DS and death. How can that work? What exactly does the Mass Shadow Generator do? Or it it impossible for Jedi to walk on the surface of Malachor and not get corrupted?
2. The Mass Shadow Generator drew the Mandalorian and Republic battle fleet orbiting above the world of Malachor V into a vast gravity vortex that was powerful enough to crush the numerous ships into the planet's crust and rupture Malachor V to its very heart. It's like some type of huge magnet.

Thus the Jedi who fought at the Battle of Malachor V had two options:

a) Die (in whatever way) before you reach Malachor V, since you’d rather die than fall to the dark side, which would happen for sure. Or you might die before you reach Malachor V because you think there’s no hope of surviving.

b) Choose life over death, try and survive and try and avoid (but fail) falling to the dark side on Malachor V or just give in to the dark side without a fight.

The Exile chose option c) Survive, and not fall to the dark side, by cutting yourself off from the force, thus becoming immune to the effects of Malachor V.

Most likely I’ve got some, most, or all of this wrong. It’s been seven and a half months since I last played TSL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
3.) How come Mandalore survives an encounter with Nihilus? He's not immune.
3. Because he was heavily focused on the only two people in the galaxy who could stop him; a wound in the force (the Exile) and someone who is tied to Nihilus in some way (Visas). That, plus the fact that Mandalore wouldn’t be a very tasty meal for him, since he doesn’t have much force sensitivity.

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Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
4.) What if Nihilus eliminated the Exile? Would he be gone as well?
4. I’d say if Nihilus eliminated the Exile, he would carry on until he eats everything connected to the force in the galaxy, and the Exile would just be a rotting corpse.

Looks like I’m not the only Jediphile fanboy after all.


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Old 05-01-2007, 10:02 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
2. The Mass Shadow Generator drew the Mandalorian and Republic battle fleet orbiting above the world of Malachor V into a vast gravity vortex that was powerful enough to crush the numerous ships into the planet's crust and rupture Malachor V to its very heart. It's like some type of huge magnet.
Maybe it should have just been called a Mass Generator then.
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Old 05-01-2007, 10:10 AM   #61
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A bit of topic but where the Jedi fighting on Mal-V those who doubted Revan and where not a 100% behind his plans ; wans't it Revan's plan to wipe out those he did not trusted on Mal-V ?

It's strange that the Exile was on Mal-V , I thougth he was one of the most loyal to Revan , why would Revan want him dead ???

And why would Revan destroy Mal-V in the first place since it was full of Sith-temples , buildings , etc ... wich his new order could use .

Or did he find the first evidance of the Sith beyond known space on Mal-V and feared they might return to this place .


TIQUILAAAAAAAA
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Old 05-01-2007, 01:50 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
Great story Jediphile! I wouldn't be surprised if it was intented that way. TSL and especially Nihilus makes much more sense to me now. Thanks!

I have a few questions though, you seem to understand TSL better than most
Thank you for your kind words. That goes for everyone, really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
1.) If the Exile is immune to Nihilus' powers, why is there something "You safed Telos..and yourself!" in the questlog after you defeat Nihilus? It that just a minor mistake, or does it have some deeper meaning?
Hadn't really considered that. I tend to take the quest logs with a grain of salt, since to me they are just the game's version of the pc's post-it or "must remember to do"-stickers, which means it is entirely subjective to what the exile (or Revan in the first game) thinks is really going, and which may therefore be wrong.

But you're right there could be some deeper meaning here. By destroying Nihilus, the exile could have saved himself from the danger that the force wound presented to him and others. It might also have removed the force bond with Kreia, which posed a danger to him throughout the game. This is speculative, though.

I wouldn't say that the exile is entirely immune to Nihilus' powers. Clearly he can be affected by more conventional powers. But Nihilus can't drain him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
2.) I don't understand how Jedi on Malachor were forced to decide between going DS and death. How can that work? What exactly does the Mass Shadow Generator do? Or it it impossible for Jedi to walk on the surface of Malachor and not get corrupted?
Well, what exactly happened at Malachor V is a bit of a grey area. According to what we know of it, and especially from Kreia, Malachor V is a terrible place. Bear with me, this will take some time...

Kriea: "There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side - it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death. Revan knew the power of such places... and the power in making them. They can be used to break the will of others... of Jedi, promising them power, and turning them to the dark side.Did you never wonder how Revan corrupted so many of the Jedi, so much of the Republic, so quickly?The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion.Culminating a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from... save one.And that is what I sought to understand. How one could turn away from such power, give up the Force... and still live. But I see what happened now. It is because you had no choice.It is because you were afraid."

Now, this place would obviously (to me at least) seem to be Malachor V, which would explain the jedi corruption to us right there.

The problem is that I don't think any fighting ever took place on the ground, since the Mandalorians would not have gone there...

From the KotOR2 Chronicles: "It is a period of turmoil in the Galaxy. The fierce Mandalorian warrior race begins the MANDALORIAN WAR by viciously and simultaneously attacking three quadrants of Republic space. As the battle rages on, Jedi Master REVAN moves surreptitiously between unknown sectors, scouting for potential strongholds to withstand the attacks. He soon discovers the shadowy Malachor V, a planet listed by Mandalorian scholars as "forbidden" to step foot on. The reason for this soon becomes clear as Revan is almost devoured by primal Sith forces on the world's surface. Revan's will allows him to feed on (and not be consumed by) the power of the dark side. Revan develops an evil but brilliant plan: Using the dark power of Malachor V, he will seduce an army of Jedi, completely loyal to him alone. He will then turn the planet's evil power against the Mandalorian army in battle, luring them to his stronghold and destroying them completely. A stronghold is immediately constructed."

While this supports the comments by Kreia about Malachor V's corrupting nature, it also gives us evidence that no ground war would have taken place, since the place is sacred to the Mandalorians, who are forbidden from setting foot on the planet.

I would suspect that Malachor V is so corrupting, especially to jedi, that it would extend its influence even to a battle going on above it in space, and that Revan realised and exploited that. Certainly that is Revan's plan, which Kreia also refers to in the above. We can get a better explanation, though.

HK-47: "Observation: Master, that was the lesson of Malachor. Any Jedi involved in the systematic slaughter on such a scale cannot help but doubt and question themselves.Observation: Master, I do not believe that the Mandalorians were the true target at Malachor - I believe that the intention was to destroy the Jedi, break their will, and make them loyal to Revan.I do not know if you examined the records of the deaths on Malachor, but you cannot escape that many of the Jedi and Republic soldiers who died were not Revan's strongest supporters. Observation: I believe that Revan was "cleaning house" at Malachor V. What ones did not die became Revan's allies against the Republic."

HK-47: "But the most effective weapon against Jedi seems to be the erosion of the spirit.Answer: Revan claimed that psychological warfare against Jedi was important because much of their power comes from their state of mind, their connection to this religion called the "Force."Revan said that many Jedi have the capability to form connections to life around them, although few of them realized the extent to which this is possible.Recollection: I believe my Master speculated that many Jedi did not fully form such connections because of their discipline, because they never opened their lives to the passions around them. I believe Revan termed it that "one would need to be a human being to develop such connections." It is something that the Jedi code could not teach. One simply knew it instinctively, or not.Observation: Master, I am somewhat surprised that I need to explain this to you at all, considering your past with Revan.Answer: Why, he said you had such capability, master, but it would be your downfall. To tie so much of yourself into others - if they suffer or die, then you would die as well.Observation: I think Revan pitied you, master. It was very insulting, if I may say so.Clarification: Whatever it is called, master, it seems to be quite a vulnerability. Revan even admitted as such. When a Jedi, or any soldier, suffers doubt, it weakens them. With the Jedi, however, it is more pronounced, since they are extreme examples. That is why Revan felt that Malachor V was so important. It was intended to be a conversion tool. Assessment: When faced with a continuous series of hard-fought battles, I detected a significant statistical increase in Jedi following Revan over the Jedi Code - a compromise in principles brought about by battlefield conditions.The emotional weight of war changed Jedi morale, power, and eventually, their allegiance. Conclusion: I believe the Mandalorian Wars were to beat the Mandalorians and also to allow Revan to build the foundation of his army. But I am surprised you have not already arrived at this conclusion. Surely the loss of your troops and the Jedi who served under you at Malachor V, had a detrimental effect upon you and your ties to the Force - and I suspect, your desire to be around others ever again."

The mass shadow generator has no particular place in this, of course - it is just massive destruction on a grander scale - what Vader would call "technological terror" - and nothing more.

But the MSG's implications are significant, however. Note the passage I've underlined. How much the exile ties himself to other people is the CORE of his problem, because that's what he faced at Malachor. He should have died, but instead he was in so much agony, that he instinctively cut his own connection to the force to avoid the pain. That pain, as I've said, I believe to be Nihilus - he is what the exile shed himself off on Malachor V.

The MSG comes into play for two reasons.

First, you need it to explain a sudden fatality rate so huge that this would push the exile over the edge. Simply having a lot of dead people doesn't do it, because the exile has probably experienced that several times in his life before then - he could not have been a good general, or it would have happened sooner, if losing a thousand or so lives suddenly would be that much of a problem. Enter the MSG to explain the sudden and massive death of jedi or others that the exile was somehow connected to.

Second, the MSG is a set-up plotwise for Bao-Dur, who is the one and only person in the game that can truly identify with the exile's problem. But more than that, he serves to foreshadow the sins of the past that the exile must later confront. The exile has a problem because he ordered the destructive use of the MSG and so feels responsible for the lives lost. Bao-Dur feels the same because he built the damn thing. Bao-Dur serves as a mirror for the exile in that sense. They both take responsibility (assuming LS) while absolving the other for what happened. The exile says Bao-Dur was not responsible, because the exile decided to use it. Bao-Dur says that the exile had no choice under the circumstances, and that he is to blame himself because he shouldn't have built the thing in the first place. Plotwise Bao-Dur serves the point of emphasizing the significance of Malachor V, which we will only learn later. But he is also the exile's closest ally, because he's the only one the exile can talk to about this, given their common experiences. They are basically old war buddies, and those bonds (force bond?) can be rather strong. Note, for example, how Kreia marvels that the exile can hear Bao-Dur's thoughts, while she cannot.

Sheesh... Sorry about the length. Hope that explains it, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
3.) How come Mandalore survives an encounter with Nihilus? He's not immune.
No, he isn't. However, he is with the exile and - force-sensitive or not - he is bonded with the exile. At least that would be my suspicion. So the exile's inherent immunity to Nihilus extends through that bond. In retrospect, I find it interesting that this is the only part of the game, where the party composition (except when alone) is forced on you 100%. Why is that?

Well, I think it's because Visas is already Nihilus' servant and so can walk in "safely", since Nihilus doesn't know (or maybe care) that she has turned against him. And frankly, until I had defeated Nihilus the first time around, I wasn't sure which side she was really on myself...

Nihilus would sense any jedi, but he considers Visas "safe" and cannot detect the exile because he has no force connection. And neither does Mandalore, since he is not force sensitive. No other character could have gone, I think. The rest are either all jedi or at least force senstive, or they are droids and so would not have a force bond with the exile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelastraz
4.) What if Nihilus eliminated the Exile? Would he be gone as well?
It's difficult to say. If Nihilus is an abandoned part of the exile, could it have survived if the original is dead? I would suspect not, but then Kreia also tells us that nothing is impossible for the force. I doubt it, though, since I think it at least needs the exile as an "anchor" to retain some semblance of connection to reality, perverted though it may be. So I think Nihilus could have killed the exile with his lightsaber or possibly conventional force powers, but I also think it would have been his own undoing. Perhaps that is Kreia's trap - even if the exile is killed, she wins either way by simply forcing the confrontation between them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quanon
A bit of topic but where the Jedi fighting on Mal-V those who doubted Revan and where not a 100% behind his plans ; wans't it Revan's plan to wipe out those he did not trusted on Mal-V ?

It's strange that the Exile was on Mal-V , I thougth he was one of the most loyal to Revan , why would Revan want him dead ???
He wouln't, I think. But someone has to lead the troops, and doesn't seem to have been certain that the exile would follow him. Therefore the exile must also be forced to either submit or die. HK even mentions that Revan was very much aware of the exile's "special" condition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quanon
And why would Revan destroy Mal-V in the first place since it was full of Sith-temples , buildings , etc ... wich his new order could use .

Or did he find the first evidance of the Sith beyond known space on Mal-V and feared they might return to this place .
A simple explanation could be that since Revan was not at the final battle, at least not initially, the exile may have ordered the use of the MSG without Revan's permission or knowledge. Heck, Revan might not even have known that the bloody thing even existed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architect
Looks like I’m not the only Jediphile fanboy after all.
Oh my, hasn't this topic deteriorated into my own virtual throne room, where I can hold court... I feel like G'Kar on B5 now. Maybe I should change my screenname...


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Old 05-01-2007, 03:58 PM   #63
GarfieldJL
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Again Kreia actually states that Nihilus is a man, and if the Exile was a woman then if the Exile and Nihilus are related then why would she say that.
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Old 05-01-2007, 05:05 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
Again Kreia actually states that Nihilus is a man, and if the Exile was a woman then if the Exile and Nihilus are related then why would she say that.
Because that refers to the body itself. Nihilus is male, sure, but that's just the physical vessel that carries his existence. The psyche that is Nihilus has animated a presumably dead body to serve as its host. This body would likely be someone the exile had a strong force bond with before that person's death on Malachor V, since that would mean a stronger connection.

For further clarification, please look at posts #1 and #13 of this topic again. It was actually mentioned in both already.


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Old 05-01-2007, 05:51 PM   #65
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I think you're wrong. In one of the loading screens in the Ravager, it said that:
The Ravager was pulled from the Malachor gravity well by it's new master. He used it to escape imprisonment.
If he was imprisoned, who did so? because this would be after the battle.
And also, Nihilus became this abomination since he learned hunger from the trayus academy. How could he be the Nihilus we know without this???
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Old 05-01-2007, 06:15 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc29
I think you're wrong. In one of the loading screens in the Ravager, it said that:
The Ravager was pulled from the Malachor gravity well by it's new master. He used it to escape imprisonment.
If he was imprisoned, who did so? because this would be after the battle.
I've always taken that particular reference to mean that he was trapped or stranded on Malachor V until he used his powers to escape. Certainly there is no other evidence that I've ever seen to suggest that he was held captive by anyone. Besides, given how powerful he is, I find it hard to believe that anyone could...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc29
And also, Nihilus became this abomination since he learned hunger from the trayus academy. How could he be the Nihilus we know without this???
Ah, but do we know that? I don't think we do. Besides, if Nihilus' "hunger" was learned there, then why does neither Traya nor Sion have powers that are in any way similar? They should have learned the same, after all, shouldn't they? Besides...

Kreia: "It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes.It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."

So no. He did not learn it, since it cannot be taught. He experienced it. That's the reason Traya and Sion do not have this power.


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Last edited by Jediphile; 05-01-2007 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 05-01-2007, 07:21 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediphile
I've always taken that particular reference to mean that he was trapped or stranded on Malachor V until he used his powers to escape. Certainly there is no other evidence that I've ever seen to suggest that he was held captive by anyone. Besides, given how powerful he is, I find it hard to believe that anyone could...



Ah, but do we know that? I don't think we do. Besides, if Nihilus' "hunger" was learned there, then why does neither Traya nor Sion have powers that are in any way similar? They should have learned the same, after all, shouldn't they? Besides...

Kreia: "It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes.It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."

So no. He did not learn it, since it cannot be taught. He experienced it. That's the reason Traya and Sion do not have this power.


They did not have this power, but learnt something: Traya Betrayal and Sion Power

And if my theory of him learning hunger, one way or another, from the Trayus academy, then he would be some kind of force sensitive or sith without these powers, making him possible to imprison.
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Old 05-01-2007, 07:38 PM   #68
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Well, the hunger pretty much devoured his very being making him a shadow of himself continually needing to feed off the force of planets and people in order to live. That power was something like the Sith bomb from back in Bane's time which destroyed any force life. Only Nihlus' version was more like a curse. Which is why when he died, the hunger couldn't sustain his physical form and destroyed his body. I wonder what his face looked like, too bad they didn't show it.


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Old 05-01-2007, 11:25 PM   #69
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BTW: In regards to the Mass Shadow Generator; a Mass Shadow is a naturally occurring celestial phenomenon that can impede hyperspace travel due to it's strong gravitational pull. It basically pulls ships out of hyperspace. So, the MSG is basically an artificial creation of a Mass Shadow. But, I believe the power is much, much greater than a natural Mass Shadow.

Anyways,

First thing I want to tackle: Darth Nihilus dissipated, so what? He was a wound in the force, something devoid of life. This could simply be the cause of his body consuming itself or some sort of "return to the force" that we see with Obi-wan Kenobi. Yes, yes, I realize that he was LS, etc...But I don't see his body dissipating as a real strong point.

I still believe Nihilus was a Jedi before Malachor V. All of your evidence is very great, but I believe you are delving too much into the subject and over-analyzing everything.

"Why did he spare the Miraluka? It may have been the last shred of Humanity in him."

This seems to elude that Nihilus was once a human, that indeed did have a past. Also, you must remember that Nihilus did spare Visas. Did he let her live due to his bond with her? I don't believe so, I think the bond grew once Nihilus "showed her the universe".

Or, in support of your theory, it could just suggest that even though Nihilus is a darkside counter-part to the Exile, it is still capable of possessing a conscious. But all of this was lost as he continued to consume and feed.

"Lord Nihilus, you escaped death by containing your consciousness within your armor. How?!?"

Darth Krayt is quoted to saying this to a holocron that Nihilus left behind. This quote could be in reference to his survival of Malachor V. He survived Malachor V by containing his very essence within armor.

In retrospect, I believe you could also manipulate that quote to further your point. Saying that the Exile (who is in essence, Nihilus) escaped death by dividing his consciousness and leaving a portion of it within a suit of armor. Yet, I feel that Krayt is referring to Nihilus' former self, a Jedi Knight.

"What did you see when you looked at him?"
"A man, nothing more."

Visas did not notice any peculiarities in regards to Nihilus. I believe her heightened force perception would allow her to witness and connection between the Exile and Nihilus.

Oh yea, and I remember you making a point along the lines of: "If Nihilus was not a part of the Exile, then how was he able to sense him early on before the Exile's presence was known?"

Well, I believe it was more along the lines of Nihilus felt a disturbance in the force and could not identify it. Visas also felt this disturbance, and Nihilus knowing of her racial trait--sent her to identity the source of this disturbance. Also, I believe Visas felt it before Nihilus did, and informed him of this disturbance.

But, I really like this theory--I wouldn't be surprised if this was an actual intention for KOTOR II. But, I honestly think you're just over-analyzing (same thing people do with songs, sometimes they're simple things but people twist each line to mean something specifically XD).
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Old 05-02-2007, 08:28 AM   #70
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I remember you suggesting this theory a long time ago in another thread. It has sounded plausible to me since then.

I wouldn't call myself a "fanboy" of you though, though I appreciate and salute you for how must thought you've given to the matter.
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Old 05-02-2007, 10:20 AM   #71
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Why weren't some people affected though by the corrupting effects, the Exile, Bao-dur, Mira, etc. It was possible to resist the dark side influence.
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Old 05-02-2007, 10:37 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
Why weren't some people affected though by the corrupting effects, the Exile, Bao-dur, Mira, etc. It was possible to resist the dark side influence.
Woah! The magic happens again! (please read a thread before posting )

Jediphile's theory isn't about resisting or light sided-ness.
It's just an elemental thing to happen, without any Light Side or Dark Side involved. Actually, it's pretty much the grey way.
The Exile could have chosen to:
a) Die at Malachor, stay LS.
b) Continue the slaughtering, and become one of Revan's homies.
c) Strip yourself of the Force.

The Exile did the last thing. According to the theory, by doing so, he kind of created Nihilus. And since we know Kotor 2 ends LS, and the fact that we know Nihilus is DS, the theory stands.

It isn't about resisting dark forces, or the dark side. Remember, party members were only bonded to the Exile to provide him Force energy, which he couldn't provide himself anymore.
It's just a battle of two beings that are unique: They are just 2 wounds in the Force. One turning DS and using his siphoningpowers for destruction. And one turning LS, and reastablishing a new Jedi order through his party members.

So, to connect to your post:
a) There is no Dark Side to resist, the ending is LS.
b) If there were DS to resist, they could, since it';s just a battle between the Exile and Nihilus, and they are only there to provide energy. They're just like batteries, so the corruption wouldn't be permanent

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Old 05-02-2007, 10:42 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darca Lar
But you can't confirm that Nihilus was indeed Exile's master, right? Can you even prove that Exile's master was even part of the War?

I'm guessing that Kavar was the Exile's master.
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Old 05-02-2007, 10:54 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
I'm guessing that Kavar was the Exile's master.
We already went over this...Kavar sparred with the Exile and maybe taught him a few things. But, he was not his master.
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Old 05-02-2007, 11:01 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirHaxALot
We already went over this...Kavar sparred with the Exile and maybe taught him a few things. But, he was not his master.

Just sparring with the Exile doesn't explain the line about not expecting Kavar to turn on him/her too. So there was more there than just being a sparring partner.
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Old 05-02-2007, 11:49 AM   #76
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Yes, I know the Chronclies are uncanon, but actually...

Quote:
Meanwhile on Dantooine, the small Jedi academy overseen by Master Vodo-Siosk Baas is shocked to learn that a lone Jedi Padawan has disobeyed a direct order from Jedi Master ATRIS, a prominent Jedi on the Council. This single student has left behind the relative safety of the training grounds to fight alongside the Jedi loyal to Master Revan. But this young one, like the other Jedi brethren, is unaware of the tremendous dark side power wielded by Revan and the terrible secrets of Malachor V.
No mention of this foolish Padawan ever again, but I think I can speculate that this lone Jedi is "The Exile"...with the Chronclies forgetting that "The Exile" is a Jedi Knight, not a Padawan. Incomplete, but it does explain that The Exile is a Padawan of Atris.


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Old 05-02-2007, 12:53 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
Just sparring with the Exile doesn't explain the line about not expecting Kavar to turn on him/her too. So there was more there than just being a sparring partner.
No, but the line about considering the exile as his apprentice does, since it makes no sense if the exile was his apprentice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Yes, I know the Chronclies are uncanon, but actually...


The KotOR2 Chronicles are canon. They were posted at the official website.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Quote:
Meanwhile on Dantooine, the small Jedi academy overseen by Master Vodo-Siosk Baas is shocked to learn that a lone Jedi Padawan has disobeyed a direct order from Jedi Master ATRIS, a prominent Jedi on the Council. This single student has left behind the relative safety of the training grounds to fight alongside the Jedi loyal to Master Revan. But this young one, like the other Jedi brethren, is unaware of the tremendous dark side power wielded by Revan and the terrible secrets of Malachor V.
No mention of this foolish Padawan ever again, but I think I can speculate that this lone Jedi is "The Exile"...with the Chronclies forgetting that "The Exile" is a Jedi Knight, not a Padawan. Incomplete, but it does explain that The Exile is a Padawan of Atris.
No, I don't think so. Yes, I agree we're talking about the exile here, but it only establishes that Atris was a master and the exile a padawan. It does not establish, however, that the exile's master was Atris.

Nor could it, since the game says otherwise...

Exile to handmaiden sister: "High talk for Atris, considering she never had a Padawan."


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Old 05-02-2007, 01:26 PM   #78
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Quote:
The KotOR2 Chronicles are canon. They were posted at the official website.
I consider them just a pretty poorly written fan fic, but I guess that it is also canon, which makes me cringe.

Quote:
No, I don't think so. Yes, I agree we're talking about the exile here, but it only establishes that Atris was a master and the exile a padawan. It does not establish, however, that the exile's master was Atris.

Nor could it, since the game says otherwise...

Exile to handmaiden sister: "High talk for Atris, considering she never had a Padawan."
You're right. And just when I was happy that Atris finally got a connection to The Exile to make her a good villian.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
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Old 05-02-2007, 08:10 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
Just sparring with the Exile doesn't explain the line about not expecting Kavar to turn on him/her too. So there was more there than just being a sparring partner.
Exile and Kavar were great friends and Exile looked at Kavar not only as a dear friend but somewhat of a mentor as well. Does this answer it for you?


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Old 05-03-2007, 01:24 AM   #80
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To clear up a few discrepancies since people tend to have a knack for not reading anything previously posted...

1) The canon gender of the Jedi Exile is female.

2) The canon alignment of the Jedi Exile is Light Side.

3) Atris was a Jedi Master. However, her title is either honorary, or she retook the Jedi Trials on a higher difficulty level in order to be granted the rank. She never had a Padawan (at the time of the game), nor has she ever taught any Jedi in general.

4) With the limited sources we have, we do not know who the Jedi Exile's master was. It was not Kavar; they were friends, but never Master and Padawan (Please go back and read Kavar's line quoted directly from the game!) It was not Atris either; as spoken of above. WE DO NOT KNOW!

5) The Chronicles of the Old Republic are canon, in as much as they do not conflict with other, more reputable sources. There are many mistakes. One of which is that the Exile attended the Jedi Enclave when it was overseen by Master Vodo Siosk-Baas. Yes, he established it. However, he was dead by the time the Exile was there and/or left for the Mandalorian Wars.

6) The Chronicles are correct in their depiction of the Exile being a Padawan when leaving for the Mandalorian Wars. It later states that when she returned from the war (the only one to do so willingly), it says she is a Jedi Knight. This tells us that during the conflict that spans years, she was Knighted. On what grounds and by whom? We don't know. But, regardless, she was.

Now that some of that is out of the way, I would like to comment on what SirHaxALot said:

Quote:
"What did you see when you looked at him?"
"A man, nothing more."

Visas did not notice any peculiarities in regards to Nihilus. I believe her heightened force perception would allow her to witness and connection between the Exile and Nihilus.


Mmmmm... okay, but remember: Nihilus is dead by this point. Any connection that might have existed would have been gone. If the theory holds true, then the essence that was once fueling the empty shell that was Nihilus's physical form would have been absorbed back into the Jedi Exile, or it dissipated. When Nihilus dies, then there can no longer be a bond there, nor any abnormality that she would be aware of. For one, she is physically blind and would not be able to see the physical of Nihilus with eyes like yours or mine, so that leaves out one abnormality. Nor would she be able to sense anything unusual in the Force... because he is dead. He's gone. Poof, bye bye.

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