Connection between Exile and Nihilus [Possible TSL spoiler]

[Darca Lar]

Originally Posted by Jediphile

Kreia says it to the comatose LS exile after she has killed the jedi masters. Little reason to lie in that case, as she'll be leaving the exile in any event. Besides, Kreia seems to have this annoying ability to never lie. She bends the truth, sure, she says things that seem to mean one thing, but can be later taken to mean something else. But I don't recall her speaking a clear, confirmable lie during the game.

That's because she's like Palpatine from the Prequel trilogy combined with Ben Kenobi's cryptic tongue!

[MJ-W4]

Originally posted by Myself
Well it's Kreia saying this. Before I'd trust Kreia as a definite source, I'd first see what scheme she has that this fits into, and make up my mind afterwards.
Also, limting this to the exile kills all spin-offs on the subject.

Originally Posted by Jediphile

Kreia says it to the comatose LS exile after she has killed the jedi masters. Little reason to lie in that case, as she'll be leaving the exile in any event. Besides, Kreia seems to have this annoying ability to never lie. She bends the truth, sure, she says things that seem to mean one thing, but can be later taken to mean something else. But I don't recall her speaking a clear, confirmable lie during the game.

And spin-offs? No way. The exile is and should remain unique. Sure, Kreia says others will (in the future) stop listening to the force as the exile did, but that only goes some way toward making the exile's choice. You add more people to that list, and the exile stops being a unique person and instead just becomes "yet another force-denier" among many. It's trivial and takes away from the character and from the plot of TSL. I'd hate that.

Relax, please. What did I really say? I said, "be careful when taking Kreia for granted." Look before you leap. And who could I mean by 'spin-off?' I deliberately used this term in Kreia's cryptic way: She is a parallel to the Exile herself. When Nihilus and Sion maimed her, they also tore her from the force. Remember that sequence? Kreia was exiled, too, only from the dark side. Like the Exile, Kreia is neither Jedi nor Sith. Both are somewhere inbetween, a point that Kreia makes in her final speech as well. She really was an excellent teacher.
What really makes the Exile unique is that he came to terms with himself and succeeded where all the others failed.

[Jediphile]

Originally Posted by MJ-W4

Relax, please. What did I really say? I said, "be careful when taking Kreia for granted." Look before you leap. And who could I mean by 'spin-off?' I deliberately used this term in Kreia's cryptic way: She is a parallel to the Exile herself. When Nihilus and Sion maimed her, they also tore her from the force. Remember that sequence? Kreia was exiled, too, only from the dark side. Like the Exile, Kreia is neither Jedi nor Sith. Both are somewhere inbetween, a point that Kreia makes in her final speech as well. She really was an excellent teacher.
What really makes the Exile unique is that he came to terms with himself and succeeded where all the others failed.

First, obviously you should never take Kreia simply at her word. If Kreia told me water was wet, I'd check with at least two other people to see if they thought it was true before I believed her. With that in mind, however, Kreia remains a great source of information that it would be foolish to ignore IMHO. "Hear all, trust nothing" are the words of wisdom, where Kreia is concerned.

Second, Kreia is cast down and exiled from the Sith by Nihilus and Sion, yes. This does not make her equal to the exile, however. The exile achieved his unique powers by denying the will of the force. That is something Kreia cannot do, which is the major reason why she seeks out the exile in the first place. I'd even speculate that she used Nihilus the same way to attack the will of the force, since he has a similar power as the exile's darker half. When he then cast her out, she went to the origin of his "power of denial" instead.

So Kreia was exiled, sure. But she's nothing like the exile otherwise. If she were, the entire plot would be moot. As for the exile being jedi or not, that is the exile's choice to make. While the masters would dismiss the exile as jedi out of fear of his powers and Kreia would discount him as one to lure him to her own cause. Sure, the exile is unusual, but then again, isn't everyone? To me that has always been the content of what either Visas or Disciple tells the exile after Kreia kills the masters and then escapes. The exile decides whether he is jedi or sith or something else. It's not something that can be dictated to him by outside powers, especially not in the case of the exile, who can deny even the will of the force. If the exile wants to be a jedi, then he can be, whether the will of the force decrees it or not.

[MJ-W4]

Originally Posted by Jediphile

First, obviously you should never take Kreia simply at her word. If Kreia told me water was wet, I'd check with at least two other people to see if they thought it was true before I believed her. With that in mind, however, Kreia remains a great source of information that it would be foolish to ignore IMHO. "Hear all, trust nothing" are the words of wisdom, where Kreia is concerned.

Seems we agree on that.

Originally Posted by Jediphile

Second, Kreia is cast down and exiled from the Sith by Nihilus and Sion, yes. This does not make her equal to the exile, however. The exile achieved his unique powers by denying the will of the force. That is something Kreia cannot do, which is the major reason why she seeks out the exile in the first place. I'd even speculate that she used Nihilus the same way to attack the will of the force, since he has a similar power as the exile's darker half. When he then cast her out, she went to the origin of his "power of denial" instead.

So Kreia was exiled, sure. But she's nothing like the exile otherwise. If she were, the entire plot would be moot. As for the exile being jedi or not, that is the exile's choice to make. While the masters would dismiss the exile as jedi out of fear of his powers and Kreia would discount him as one to lure him to her own cause. Sure, the exile is unusual, but then again, isn't everyone? To me that has always been the content of what either Visas or Disciple tells the exile after Kreia kills the masters and then escapes. The exile decides whether he is jedi or sith or something else. It's not something that can be dictated to him by outside powers, especially not in the case of the exile, who can deny even the will of the force. If the exile wants to be a jedi, then he can be, whether the will of the force decrees it or not.

Looking at it that way, I'd tend to agree. My point is that even though the story revolves around the Exile and the decisions (s)he makes, it is also Kreia's story. From her perspective, she feels like the Exile. She has, like the Exile, re-established her connection to the Force, and she sets him/her off to meet his/her destiny. She guides the Exile all the way to the end(?) of the story. Wherever she failed, she wants the Exile to win, like a mother who seeks to live her life again through her child. If the Exile doesn't do as she would like, she'll chide like a concerned mother but she never gives up. If the Exile is male, Sion reflects that notion when he acts like a less favourite son facing the favoured son. (Korriban + Malachor V)

I don't like Kreia's schemes and the lack of choices she leaves you in the game, however, I also think she's one of the best-written characters ever.

[Darca Lar]

I agree. Kreia was a really well done, well thought out character. But going back to the topic, IF Nihilus was a shadow or "the other half" of the Exile, then that raises another couple questions about that event. Did Nihilus just form? Did he have a solid, physical appearance at some point? And how was he able to use the force thus as to fuse his, whatever, to some armor I could only assume was from the battlefield?

[MJ-W4]

Originally Posted by Darca Lar

I agree. Kreia was a really well done, well thought out character. But going back to the topic, IF Nihilus was a shadow or "the other half" of the Exile, then that raises another couple questions about that event. Did Nihilus just form? Did he have a solid, physical appearance at some point? And how was he able to use the force thus as to fuse his, whatever, to some armor I could only assume was from the battlefield?

Right you are, back on topic: An easy explanation I came up with for myself is that Nihilus (latin: nihil = nothing) is something like a DS force ghost. He is an anthropomorphic personification, like Death in some old pictures is portrayed as a skeleton in a cloak and hood. In my explanation to myself, Nihilus has no real ego, he seems like trouble walking. Literally. If he had been somebody once, he should have more of a personality, I think. Maybe he only chose his mask and hood because he thought that's what people (Darth Traya? Nihilus' looks seem to be mocking Darth Traya, when you stand them next to each other) looked like, and since he only had a vague idea from the rift in the Force that caused him to be, he got it quite wrong. Also, he's not very articulate. I mean, he certainly has the means to get some kind of speech device done, but he doesn't seem to have enough personality to care. That's why I think he actually is nobody.

[RobQel-Droma]

^Interesting idea, I never thought of that before. But where did that nothing come from, or why did it personify itself in Nihilus?...

[MJ-W4]

^^ That's where I tend to be a little Einsteinian: When so many people died and ships were destroyed, lots of energy as well as Force-connections were set free and, since the SMG was working right there and then, those loose energies were drawn together and compacted according to m = e/c² (from: e = mc²) along with a very strong Force-connection, thus creating a Force-related, almost humanoid thing. The Force is described as the basis of all life which allows for Nihilus to be a sentient being. The creation of Nihilus was a side-effect of the SMG, creating something out of 'nothing'. 'Nothing' only in a manner of speaking, more like recycling used energies.

[Darca Lar]

Kinda like the Valley of the Jedi? Only opposite...instead of besotwing force energy, it drains force energy.

[MJ-W4]

Originally Posted by Darca Lar

Kinda like the Valley of the Jedi? Only opposite...instead of besotwing force energy, it drains force energy.

That rings a bell, now that you say it. Maybe it was my subconscious that gave me a hint in that direction. Anyway, that's my version of the story.

[RobQel-Droma]

Its too bad that Nihilus just kinda popped into TSL, instead of Obsidian giving him (at least) a tiny backstory, if not a large one like Malak was given by the Bioware team. Although, I guess, Malak really didn't have that much of a backstory.... But it still was pretty sufficient. Nihilus was just, well, there. You're flying along in the Hawk and all of a sudden there's some cloaked Sith Lord making wierd sounds to Visas. He's a cool idea for a Sith Lord, but, erm....

[Darca Lar]

Don't they talk about him in Legacy?

[adamqd]

^^^
Yeah, Krayt consults him and various other Sith Lords about prolonging there life (amongst other things)through the darkside, and how he connected his spirit to his mask and robes to "Survive", but Nihilus tells him to piss off before disclosing anything we don't already know

[Darca Lar]

Well that doesn't help much...

[Jediphile]

The only thing that Legacy tells us about Nihilus (in issue 5) is that he escaped death by containing his his consciousness within his armor.

There is no reference to whether this is when he allegedly died on Malachor V at the end of the Mandalorian Wars or when he was "killed" by the exile. It seems to suggest the former, but I'm wondering if it might not refer to the latter...

[Darca Lar]

Well that's another thing, was he actually killed, or did the struggle of the fight cause him to lose control and just crumble into the abyss.

[Jediphile]

Originally Posted by Darca Lar

Well that's another thing, was he actually killed, or did the struggle of the fight cause him to lose control and just crumble into the abyss.

If you're talking about the final battle against the Mandalorians at Malachor V, the description of the Nihilus mask in the game leaves little doubt, if you get Visas to get it for you.

[Description of the Nihilus Mask] "You have taken this trophy from the remains of Darth Nihilus - it is the last surviving piece of the beast who died and was reborn in the shattered world of Malachor V. By taking it from him, you have gained a stronger tie to the Force."

[Rev7]

Originally Posted by JediPhile

If you're talking about the final battle against the Mandalorians at Malachor V, the description of the Nihilus mask in the game leaves little doubt, if you get Visas to get it for you.

Visas also says that he looked like a man. (Through force sight!???) Would that not mean that that is were he really died, on the bridge of the Raveger? Just curious...

[Jediphile]

Originally Posted by Rev7

Visas also says that he looked like a man. (Through force sight!???) Would that not mean that that is were he really died, on the bridge of the Raveger? Just curious...

Maybe...

After all, I hold to the theory that Nihilus is really the exile's dark half, which used its powers to animate the dead body of some fallen jedi to serve as its host, in which case that is the body Visas would see, and which would appear to be similar to any other dead person... until the body dissolves in a haze of red dark side smoke, that is...

And the fact that Visas looks instead of the exile has always seemed odd to me. The exile was there at Malachor V, after all, so the man behind Nihilus' mask might have been somebody the exile knew. Yet the exile doesn't even bother to look. Why? I suspect it's because the exile already knew on a subconscious level and so fled from that revelation. The exile did not want to see Nihilus' real face, because it would be too difficult. The exile is, after all, in utter denial about his own contition and past throughout the game. So I don't think it unlikely that the exile "fled" from this revelation as well.

[Rev7]

Originally Posted by JediPhile

After all, I hold to the theory that Nihilus is really the exile's dark half, which used its powers to animate the dead body of some fallen jedi to serve as its host, in which case that is the body Visas would see, and which would appear to be similar to any other dead person... until the body dissolves in a haze of red dark side smoke, that is...

And the fact that Visas looks instead of the exile has always seemed odd to me. The exile was there at Malachor V, after all, so the man behind Nihilus' mask might have been somebody the exile knew. Yet the exile doesn't even bother to look. Why? I suspect it's because the exile already knew on a subconscious level and so fled from that revelation. The exile did not want to see Nihilus' real face, because it would be too difficult. The exile is, after all, in utter denial about his own contition and past throughout the game. So I don't think it unlikely that the exile "fled" from this revelation as well.

That is a interesting theory. I never really thought that the Exile could be fleeing 'from the revelation...' Thank you for clearing that up.

[MJ-W4]

Interesting, indeed. However, canon says the Exile was female while Nihilus was a man. Gender shift?

[Rev7]

hmmmm, that is also very interesting. Lots and lots of questions.

[Jediphile]

Originally Posted by MJ-W4

Interesting, indeed. However, canon says the Exile was female while Nihilus was a man. Gender shift?

If the rejected dark half of the exile used its powers to "animate" the corpse of a dead jedi to serve as a host for it, then there is no problem at all.

Then again, the dark half might not choose just any old dead jedi...

Incidentally, isn't it strange that the exile's master is never mentioned in the game?

[Ctrl Alt Del]

Originally Posted by Jediphile

Incidentally, isn't it strange that the exile's master is never mentioned in the game?

Wasn't Kavar one of her... Well, if Revan got many masters, then why can't the Exile have her share as well?

[Darca Lar]

I think Kavar was just a mentor and not the Exile's actual master. I think the same goes with Atris.

[Jediphile]

Originally Posted by Ctrl_Alt_Del

Wasn't Kavar one of her... Well, if Revan got many masters, then why can't the Exile have her share as well?

Kavar: "Did you know that when I was training you I considered making you my Padawan?"

So no. He trained the exile and considered taking him as padawan, but apparently decided against it. This line from the game makes it very clear that he was never he master, but merely trained him at one point.

EDIT: Further evidence from the discussion with Kavar. He merely sparred with the exile, suggesting to me that he merely taught lightsaber combat.

Kavar: "You always had deep connections to the Force. I am glad to see that it is once again your ally. When I first sparred with you during your training as a Padawan, I could tell that you were different. And it wasn't just your strong connection to the Force."

[Darca Lar]

Yup, that about does it. Exile's actual master was never revealed.

[Kalos]

People talked about how they like KOTOR 1 more because it has a "Better plot" and that KOTOR 2s plot sucks. After spending an hour reading over this thread, I'd say KOTOR 2s plot whomps 1s. I agree with everything Jediphile has said. Everything fits into place and makes sense. It's also so interesting to think that Nihilus is just a phantom of the force, the result of a wound, and that he needs to eat and suck the force from others to just ensure that he continues on existing.

[Exile007]

It makes a lot of sense actually. Nihilus was said to be the big powerful person, he was too. In cut KOTOR 2 content it showed Nihilus completely owning Sion. We notice as Nihilus tries to do the same to the Exile he fails. Since they are linked Nihilus cannot harm the Exile from the very thing that linked them, the force. And since the whole thing was caused through the force. Yeah...

[Tarridus]

I remember first reading this thread a month ago and it really was a revelation at the time as I had previously only gotten back into the KOTOR games after a few years of not playing them. I still believe that this theory is one of the best out there and it really made Nihilus into a more compelling character for me after the long read. And after reading up on the Obsidian forums and elsewhere that this was the intent of the Obsidian devs, it makes the theory even more compelling, and in my opinion 100% convincing.

Great job Jediphile. This thread is one of the few, I even bothered to bookmark, and for good reason. Now, off to lurk some more...

[Rev7]

Yeah, JediPhile really good at, how should I say this, thinking. It seems to me that he thinks about this things for a long time, and reveals them and they do make a lot of sense. But thats Jediphile for ya!

[DAWUSS]

Originally Posted by Jediphile

[Description of the Nihilus Mask] "You have taken this trophy from the remains of Darth Nihilus - it is the last surviving piece of the beast who died and was reborn in the shattered world of Malachor V. By taking it from him, you have gained a stronger tie to the Force."

It could also be symbolic to the Exile since, in a way, the person who she was "died" at Mally V and she was "reborn" into the person she became at Mally V.


But then again, I dunno....

[DeadYorick]

Originally Posted by Kalos

People talked about how they like KOTOR 1 more because it has a "Better plot" and that KOTOR 2s plot sucks. After spending an hour reading over this thread, I'd say KOTOR 2s plot whomps 1s. I agree with everything Jediphile has said. Everything fits into place and makes sense. It's also so interesting to think that Nihilus is just a phantom of the force, the result of a wound, and that he needs to eat and suck the force from others to just ensure that he continues on existing.

Kalos this tidbit about Nihilus is practically the only good thing about the plot besides Atton Rand and the climax of the game. Plus 70 percent of Nihilus's plot here was barely mentioned in the game. Nihilus was the best part of the game yet he was barely in it

[zadi]

I've always liked the theory that Nihilus was the split personality of the Exile. Granted, the Exile is supposed to be female while Nihilus was male but in many cultures, humans carry both aspects in their personality. Example, the Chinese believe in the Yin and Yang. And those who suffer from split personalities don't necessarily have personalities that are of their own gender.

[Nikkolas]

Question.
How does Nihilus' pattern of speech fit into this theory?
I've heard his talking is like the that of the Ancient Sith language.

[logan23]

I love the theory!

I was just wondering what happens after the final battle in kotor2.
Does the Exile decome whole?
Will Nihilus always haunt the Exile?
Will the Exile stays as a being who feeds off the force of others?
Did the Exile reconnect to teh force or only through Kreia and the Exile's party members?

Logan

Kotor: Revenge of Revan
http://kotorrevengeofrevan.wetpaint.com/
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=186405

[JCarter426]

This is a theory I've had for some time as well (and as noted previously, Mr Avellone's comment all but proves it). What really made me see the connection between the Exile and Nihilus was that there is a clear connection in the game between the Exile and all of his/her foes--Sion, Nihilus, Atris, Kreia, all of them. They all serve as warnings for the Exile of what could happen if one relies on the Force too much--something that the Exile is in danger of doing, for he/she has always relied on the Force to bond with others, especially after Malachor.


Now, onto other matters...

Regarding Nihilus' appearance in Legacy, what's actually said is so vague that nothing can be made of it, and Krayt doesn't even get an anser out of Nihilus, so who's to say that he wasn't wrong?

Originally Posted by logan23

I was just wondering what happens after the final battle in kotor2.

Aren't we all?

Originally Posted by logan23

Does the Exile decome whole?

If Exile is LS, most likely yes. The whole "saving yourself" thing mentioned in the journal entry could be metaphorical; in defeating Nihilus, the Exile has become whole again.

Originally Posted by 23

Will Nihilus always haunt the Exile?

If Exile is DS, definitely. The Exile will always have the potential to turn into Nihilus (or Atris or Sion or Kreia, for that matter).

Originally Posted by logan23

Will the Exile stays as a being who feeds off the force of others?
Did the Exile reconnect to teh force or only through Kreia and the Exile's party members?

This I'm not certain of. Kreia tells the Exile that she wants him/her to feel the Force again, so that he/she does not have to rely on bonding with others anymore. Judging from the overall themes of K2, I'm willing to bet that Kreia was successful.

By the way, I'm new here. Hello.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

Originally Posted by logan23

Will the Exile stays as a being who feeds off the force of others?
Did the Exile reconnect to teh force or only through Kreia and the Exile's party members?

We can't truly answer that, just make suppositions. But I believe that yes, the Exile regains his connection to the force, just as every time you level up and on some key moments on the game as the generic "You regained some connection to the Force" message displays.

Besides, we don't wholly knows how that bonds work, but the Exile does all on Malachor V alone. Of course he has some help (as seen on the cut-content) but the others are somewhat far away.

Originally Posted by JCarter426

By the way, I'm new here. Hello.

Hello there and welcome to the forums!

[JCarter426]

Originally Posted by Ctrl_Alt_Del

Besides, we don't wholly knows how that bonds work, but the Exile does all on Malachor V alone. Of course he has some help (as seen on the cut-content) but the others are somewhat far away.

That's a good point; the Exile finishes off Sion and all those Sith Assassins without relying on his/her bond with his/her companions. And then the Exile actually kills Kreia, even though they have a bond that is supposedy lethal. I think that was all part of Kreia's plan:

Kreia wants two things:
1. She wants revenge against those that exiled her (both Jedi and Sith).
2. She wants revenge against the Force.

Kreia sees the Exile as a tool for her to achieve both. While she doesn't succeed in actually killing the Force, she manages to help create a being that does not submit to the will of the Force. Now, how does she do this? She threatens to kill herself, forcing the Exile to do her bidding and kill Nihilus and Sion. So, if the Exile doesn't fight Nihilus, he/she dies. If the Exile dies, Nihilus dies--so Kreia achieves at least one of her goals. But when the Exile kills Nihilus, he/she no longer needs the bond with Kreia or anyone else, which is how the Exile manages to face Malachor alone. Of course, it's likely that the Exile didn't know this, otherwise they wouldn't need to go to Malachor in the first place. Furthermore, if we look at some of the cut content for Malachor, it was originally planned that the player would have two choices--to save their party members, or to face Kreia alone, and become stronger for it (though it seems you wind up alone in either case).

Originally Posted by Ctrl_Alt_Del

Hello there and welcome to the forums!

Thanks.

[Rev7]

^ That does make a lot of sense. I honestly could never think of such theories. Very interesting stuff...

Sheesh Ctrl, you beat me to it. I will say it anyways,
Welcome to LucasForums JCarter426!!

~Rev