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Old 05-01-2007, 05:31 AM   #1
TheShaman
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Saber styles perks

So, here we go, the different saber styles need more special and unique things to be different playing ways. Feel free to post any suggestion, and we'll discuss it.

At the moment, the perks are:

Shii-cho:
• 15 DP damage
• 125% MP regen

Makashi:
• 14 DP damage
• 1 (or 2 maybe, not sure) MP dealt to the opponent for unparried attacks

Soresu:
• 12 DP damage
• Parrying DP cost of 75%

Djem-so:
• 17 DP damage
• 110% DP damage with attack fakes if opponent doesn't parry them

Juyo:
• 16 DP damage

Jar'kai (dual):
• 13 DP damage per saber
• Can still block when disarmed (1 saber left)
• No FP cost for attack fakes direction change

Staff (juyo? :S):
• 13 DP damage per blade
• No extra DP cost for blocking rear attacks (doesn't that apply to all styles with defense 3? If yes, then it's pointless. If no, I thought.)
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Old 05-01-2007, 06:06 AM   #2
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Changed my mind, removed that thing, check my latest post for my new ideas.

Last edited by TheShaman; 06-07-2007 at 06:26 AM.
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Old 05-01-2007, 07:18 AM   #3
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I like most of it thus far, keep going guys.

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Old 05-01-2007, 08:17 AM   #4
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Repost from the other thread that started this whole thing, with some minor adjustments:

I disagree that special features pertain to attack fakes only. We don't want to go back to attack fake spam-a-thon again. Special skills should promote a wide flavor of tactics instead of preferring that attack fake.

For Star Wars "realism" purposes, it does not make sense for someone using a lightsaber to be able to learn any one style first. All foundations of lightsaber combat come from Shii-Cho. All younglings and padawans know Shii-cho. And then you move on to other forms - Niman (which isn't here), Soresu, Ataru (which isn't here), and Shien/Djem So being most predominant. Advanced styles are very rare, requiring a LOT of focus on lightsaber combat training (lots of skill points investment if translated into OJP). These would be the rare styles - Juyo, Makashi, Jar'Kai, and saber staff.

-----
In the Force menu, instead of having Saber Offense/Defense, we can have a simple three-tier category:

Lightsaber Proficiency:
I. Initiate - Enable lightsaber use (Shii-cho), access to lightsaber menu and general saber skill upgrades
II. Knight - Enables use of up to 2 styles; Soresu, Djem So enabled
III. Weaponmaster - Enables use of up to 3 styles; Juyo, Makashi, Dual/Staff enabled

Now in the saber menu:

Top row will have the list of available styles. Selecting one style unhides the row of upgrades dealing with that style.

General saber skill upgrades:

Deflect:
I. Initiate - Pretty much Defense 1, particularly the time window between successful deflections; 180 degree deflection coverage; shots to rear 180 degrees do 150% DP damage; manual reflection goes to crosshair 15% of the time
II. Advanced - Defense 2, decreased time window between successful deflections; 270 degree deflection coverage; shots to rear 90 degrees do 150% DP damage; manual reflection goes to crosshair 30% of the time
III. Master - Defense 3, further decreased time window between successful deflections; 360 degree deflection coverage; manual reflection goes to crosshair 50% of the time

Dueling:
I. Initiate - -1 DP cost to parrying; 180 degree vulnerability to back hits, 150% damage
II. Advanced - -2 DP cost to parrying; 90 degree vulnerability to back hits, 150% damage
III. Master - -4 DP cost to parrying; no vulnerability to back hits

Acrobatics:
I. Initiate - -1 FP cost to normal jumps, cartwheels, flips, and wall-running
II. Advanced - -2 FP cost for acrobatics; successful flipping DFA causes slowbounce
III. Master - -3 FP cost for acrobatics; successful flipping DFA causes knockdown

---
-Some other general saber skills
---

Saber Forms

---

Each saber form, when selected, comes with automatic skill properties. In addition, it has a buyable passive skill, defense skill, and attack skill (tier levels 1, 2, and 3)

Shii-Cho
Innate – 125% MP regen, 15 DP damage swings
  1. Passive – Harmony – 150% MP regen when standing still
  2. II. Defense – Footwork – Timing crouch forces a stumble from knockdown-inducing attacks (rockets, clone rifle, flechette, lightning), cooldown time 5 seconds
  3. Attack – Determination - Attack swings that force a block have a reduced MP gain by 1 MP.

Makashi
Innate – Unparried regular attacks do 3 (or 2 if 3 is too much) MP damage, 125% DP cost to auto-deflect, 14 DP damage swings
  1. Passive – Flurry - Unparried regular attacks do 5 (3 or 4 if 5 is too much) MP damage
  2. Defense – Master Riposte – Successful ripostes deliver 4 DP damage back at opponent
  3. Attack – Precision – Unparried attack fakes only reduce 3 MP for opponent when lock results in mishap; holding down attack button during quick lock causes stumble if enemy has 5-9 MP, disarm if 10-15 MP

Soresu
Innate – -25% DP damage reduction from deflect/block, 12 DP damage swings
  1. Passive – Spinning Shield – 50% DP damage reduction to deflect/block/parries/ripostes (the reduction for block can be reduced if feature is too powerful), manual deflect only requires fake instead of full swing
  2. Defense – Resilience – Ripostes give back 20 DP if DP is in critical range
  3. Attack – Opportunity - Saber swings do 150% DP damage on enemies in mishap events

Djem So
Innate – Unparried attack fakes do 1 FP damage, reduced MP regained from parries (-1? -2?), 17 DP damage swings
  1. Passive – Perseverence – 125% DP regen when standing still
  2. Defense – Bolt Reflect – Auto deflect can reflect 20% of shots back to gunner
  3. Attack – Hammer – Unparried attacks do 1 FP damage, unparried attack fakes do 2 FP damage, enables leaping DFA (unparried hit results in heavy bounce)

Juyo
Innate – Fakes near opponent do 2 DP damage, 125% MP/DP cost from blocks, 16 DP damage swings
  1. Passive – Wraith - Rolls don’t require jump to initiate; directional button + double tap crouch
  2. Defense – Redirection - Successful manual reflect causes gunners to mishap according to their mishap range (simulating ferocious manual reflect that can knock people off their feet, you see this sometimes in the prequels); can manual reflect force lightning if FP is greater than enemy’s (not necessary, but an idea to defend against Force users - Juyo requires much skill point investment that may otherwise not be going to force powers depending on max skill point limit of game; also in Sith Lords Juyo had a bonus against Force users)
  3. Attack – Chaotic Rhythm – Allows released attack fake swing; 115% increase of attack fake DP damage from unparried released attack, enables spinning DFA (unparried hit results in knockdown)

Saber Staff
Innate –
Passive –
Defense –
Attack –

Jar'Kai
Innate –
Passive –
Defense –
Attack –


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Old 05-01-2007, 08:52 AM   #5
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Well, in fact I'm against the fact that you buy progressively new things for the styles.
I prefer having "pure innate" perks, sorry.
Moreover, I really like this new idea I had of making attack fakes the speciality of each style.
It leaves a common thing in every style (attack) and makes a part unique (attack fake).
But well, that's only my point of view, we have to see what other people think, too.
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Old 05-01-2007, 11:32 AM   #6
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If we're going down the road where we can buy upgrades for ranged weapons, there's no reason to not do the same for saber styles. Besides, upgrades give players a greater degree of customization. They can choose to spend points on skills that augment their style of lightsaber swordplay or they can spread out the points to gunner skills and Force skills.

In addition, this will be a reward to someone who's a dedicated swordsman, just as upgrades for guns will reward dedicated gunners. These buyable upgrades can also help balance hybrids without having to nerf any combination of our spectrum of gunners <--> Force/saberists in ways that having only innate perks will not be able to do. Here's why: assume that we're at a fixed skill point pool where your options of buying skills are limited.

Case 1: You only need to purchase saber proficiency, plus you get some nice perks automatically.

Hybrid buys only ONE style, the style that he wants (say...Djem So). He spends the rest of his points on Force and guns. Pure saberist doesn't invest in guns, so he puts it into saber proficiency 3, plus a bunch of Force skills. That Hybrid will be able to kick the pure saberist's ass from here on to Sunday, because he only had to invest x points on a lightsaber (style that he prefers), and he can stick the rest on ranged weapons and some Force protection. The pure saberist gets blasted from a distance with accurate weapons fire, and when he gets close, the hybrid matches the saberist's coded advantages. Tell me if that's even remotely balanced.

Case 2: You have to invest additional skill points to get to certain styles (which have their innate strengths and weaknesses), and you can upgrade them.

Hybrid doesn't want to spend too many points on saber skills. He gets, say, level 2 proficiency (Shii-cho and Djem So), but can't spend points on the style upgrades because he wants to get guns and Force protection. The pure saberist invests in level 2 proficiency, some Force skills, and pours the rest into the style upgrades to Djem So level 3. Now, the pure saberist goes after the hybrid. Hybrid shoots saberist, saberist manages to get within CQB range, hybrid switches to saber as well. Because the saberist is more highly trained (more skill points invested in "mastering" the style), he's rewarded for going the route of a pure saberist. Hybrid still has decent perks inherent in the style to defend himself and attack with, but because of the pure saberist's dedicated investment, he has the combat advantage, as it should be.

I want to reiterate that making only attack fakes the specialties of each style will make for rather boring combat. People will just keep trying to attack fake you in order to use their perks, instead of trying more creative approaches to combat. The switch away from having atk + alt atk to riposte happened for a reason, and the attack fake spamming was a big part of it.


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Old 05-01-2007, 01:30 PM   #7
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This isn't interesting anymore, each of us are fighting for their own ideas, we need other people.
You are right on a few things, in your version, hybrids would need to spend more points to get full perks, that's true.
But on others, I consider my version better, for the style choosing system, and the custom fakes.
This specialization of fakes and not of rest gives something unique to OJP, the attack fakes are the particular things of the styles.

What I don't like in your purchasable saber skills is that the newcomer will be like "OMG what is all this buttons? ok i'm gonna play mb2 or fm3, it's better... and easier"
OJP lacks of players, if we don't want all the new ones (if there are some...) to run away as soon as they open the player menu... we should keep it a bit more simple.

Also, don't forget that your massive things to buy are not the only way to balance hybrids. My knockdown system will help alot if it gets implemented, and the slowdown/jump malus due to weapon carry will sure help too.
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Old 05-01-2007, 03:17 PM   #8
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Um, it's not as frightening as staring at all of the buttons like we do have now.

To prove my point on that, I did a quick mock-up (sorry bjuster, I bastardized your menu pic for expediency):

Initiate
Knight
Weaponmaster

Edit: really tired, messed up the Knight one - there aren't supposed to be any skill bubbles in the Djem So row except for the unnumbered bubble that serves as a selector

See? Doesn't look too bad, does it? No massive things to buy.

Almost every aspect of OJP's saber system is unique in some way - even regular attack swings because you have almost complete control of your swings! Attack fakes are only one part of the system, and the key is to not make people focus on using that one part of the system to be special. These upgrades are intended to augment the kind of playing style and mentality that each saber form represents. If you take away all the different style animations and replace each with the same set of animations, what are you left with that you can easily identify is a certain playing style?

Knockdown system + encumbrance system will balance out hybrids by nerfing their freedom of movement. In addition to that, skill upgrades will balance hybrids out by not nerfing them, but beefing up Jedi and gunners. In the end they'll all help, I think, while adding greater dimension of play and customizability for everyone.



Last edited by Tanqexe; 05-01-2007 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 05-01-2007, 05:27 PM   #9
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I personally agree with tanqexe and think it may really help with hybrid balancing. I do, however, wonder about how long this ould take to implement.
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Old 05-01-2007, 05:37 PM   #10
razorace
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Ok, I can contribute then. Sorry it takes so long for me to sound off. I've been actually trying to read the thread all the way thru before commenting.

Anyway, my main point is that we really need to be selective about which new skills we add. It literally takes about half an hour to add just the button function for just ONE skill. And that's before we even add the code for the skill's actual behavior.

As for the actual layout of the styles, it would be much easier to just make each style have a seperate SP cost instead of having a certain number of styles based on your Saber Offense level.

In fact, I'd suggest that we remove Saber Offense and just have style skills where Shii-Cho is required before the other styles appear/become available. This also allows us to make the styles cost different amounts of SP and not have to worry so much about 100% style balance.

As for staff/duals, I can see us making them be seperate styles as well...as long as we force them to use only a single blade until they're able to learn their staff/dual style. As a plus, this could probably allow single blade users to use the dual/staff style (which is sometimes requested).

Also, I like the idea of each style having 3 levels of skill, but I think the benefits should be more gradual. IE, +1 FP @ level 1, +1 FP @ level 2, etc. This is more realistic and prevents issues where the good elements of a style are only available at level 3.


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Old 05-01-2007, 06:19 PM   #11
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Max and I have talked about this at some point, that we should limit the number of styles. He prefers 2, and I think 3 is a good number. Having to potentially cycle through a bunch of styles to get to the one you want can be an annoyance. Plus limiting the number of styles forces a player to choose his strategy instead of spreading out a bunch of points on style skills at high skill point levels. That was one of my concerns and why I approached selection via proficiency levels. This would also offset the theoretically incredible capabilities of the four rare styles by making then inaccessible until you learned another style. IIRC in the Star Wars universe a requirement of Juyo was that you had to have mastered other saber styles...you had to master Niman, which took bits of previous forms, before you learn Jar'kai, and I dunno about staff, but it's a rare combat style for a reason. Makashi seems like you have to at least have some knowledge of other styles because you're going to be dueling against them. But anyway, if this can be done in a simpler way, I'm all for it.

By single blade dual/staff style, do you mean people using the dual/staff animations while using only one blade?

Yeah, gradual benefits would be easier to code - still think, though, that if the skill of each level is highly beneficial and each upgrade is increasingly better than the last (but boosts a different aspect of the style), that might be more interesting in the long run than having increasing stat boosts. In the end, though, it's up to the community - I'm just here to promote one idea and give reasons for why people may find it immensely rewarding.

Code-wise, I think that putting in the knockdown/encumbrance system for hybrid balancing should come first. When it comes time to tackle saber upgrades, it'd be a good idea to begin by building the saber style selection in one version, then introduce generable saber skill upgrades in the next version, and finally put in place the style upgrades.


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Old 05-01-2007, 07:04 PM   #12
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- Well, style number limits would be a pain to code. People wouldn't have to buy more than 2 or 3, especially since getting all of them would be costly.

- Yes, I'm talking about using dual/staff animations while using one blade.

- err, ok. My impression had been that encumbrance wasn't that high of a priority.


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Old 05-01-2007, 10:25 PM   #13
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I don't have much time to read through everything thoroghly or say much, but jut a few things:

I like tanqexes ideas of multiple levels for the styles too. I think I like the encumbrance thing, but I don't like how big of a word it is...

Quote:
Makashi's attack fakes deal 1 (or 2 maybe) MP damage if not parried.
That wouldn't be useful at all. I actually thought about making makashi do 3 MP damage for unparried swings previously in my code because it hardly made a difference even with normal swings.

Quote:
Defense – Master Riposte – Successful ripostes deliver 4 DP damage back at opponent
Maybe. 4 DP wouldnt really make any difference though....but too much would be a very bad thing.

As for The single duel and single staff, I like the idea of adding those. Single duel will make a good ataru, though it doesn make seven forms sense to turn into form zero (duel sabaer I think)...but who cares! I'm sure max could come up with some interesing anim replacements for those as well.


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Old 05-02-2007, 09:50 AM   #14
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Well, the whole thing is good, I was just afraid it would take too much time to implement all that and add so many skills for lightsaber skills, and also I thought it would be on the force window, by the way, how do we know how much it costs to go through profeciency levels? we don't see it on your screenshots, we just see the current level, not the points spent/to spend.

As I said, it's all pretty good, but has to be balanced I think.
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Old 05-02-2007, 01:37 PM   #15
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I think current menu setup only tells you the amount of remaining skill points you have.


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Old 05-03-2007, 12:29 PM   #16
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Yes but you know what you spent on every power (2, 4, 8 etc...) but here you don't know how many you spent on the profeciency, according to what I've seen. I think profeciency should work as a regular power (see the 3 bubbles with the cost), maybe put it on top of the list.
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Old 05-03-2007, 01:06 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanqexe
In the Force menu, instead of having Saber Offense/Defense, we can have a simple three-tier category:

Lightsaber Proficiency:
That's why it wasn't there. But if it's better on the saber menu, then it can be there. It doesn't really make a difference, really.

Jon: Max did make a new Ataru animation...too bad it's not very rewarding at the moment to code in a new style, with buyable skills playing Ataru might be pretty fun for you, you hopping jackrabbit.

Yeah it doesn't make sense to implement saber skills all at once, we'd be waiting a while. That's why it'd be a good idea to get to the big picture in incremental stages per upcoming version (1. saber proficiency/style limits if we can do it that way or individually buyable saber styles, 2. general saber skills, then 3. style skills). I wish I could help code this, but making videos and doing graphics is all I'm good for at the moment, at least until I have time to learn to model and skin again.


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Old 05-04-2007, 11:23 AM   #18
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Max made an Ataru anim? w00t w00t ! Pawns. Watch out with the freezeing that happened (still happens with Makashi) with Juyo and Makashi. And who are you based on? Yoda's Ataru is like impossible to do in JKA, he jumps too much, maybe Qui Gon's?

OK back to topic:

What about making Juyo have a reduction of DP cost to perform a body dodge?
it costs 30 for all at the moment, I think.
Maybe make it of 25 (or 20 if you think it doesn't change much) for Juyo, in Tanq's progressive system it would be either as innate or as defense. I'd say instead of the current defense thing, which is probably hard to do for lightning reflection, and I'm still against the deflected shot that makes gunners have mishap... if it's even possible to do.

Last edited by TheShaman; 05-05-2007 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 06-07-2007, 06:28 AM   #19
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OK, I've thought a lot about these ideas, I've made a mix of what I like here and there with a few new things.


A few general things:

-Base DP damage-
Shii-cho: 15
Makashi: 14
Soresu: 13
Shien/Djem-so: 17
Juyo/Vapaad: 16
Dual: 12
Staff: 11

-Concerning blocks, parries, etc.-
Attack fakes deal 125% of normal DP damage.
Parrying (and attack parrying) costs 50% of normal DP cost to block.
Parrying an attack gives 3 MP to opponent.
Parrying an attack fake gives 6 MP to opponent.
Blocking an attack gives 1 MP to oppnent.
Blocking an attack fake gives 0 MP to opponent.
Attack parrying does not give any MP to opponent, it just "applies" the MP in a forced mishap.
Running swings deal 150% of normal DP damage.

-Concerning deflect-
Defense level:
0) Deflects randomly in 180° (vertical and horizontal, a half sphere in fact)
1) Deflects randomly in 90°
2) Deflects randomly in 45°
3) Deflects randomly in 22.5°
All of this is according to where from the shot came, 90° doesn't mean 90° randomly around crosshair, but 90° randomly where the shot came from (how the hell would you deflect a shot in your back and make it go in front of you? o_O')

Manual deflections (by swinging, AND hitting the shot with saber) have 50% chance of reflecting the shot right in the crosshair, other wise, it just uses the randomness above.

Blocking a shot costs 5 DP.

-Conerning attacks-
To me, there are 3 "stages", I don't know if it's correct, but it's the way I see
it:
Start
Swing
Transition


Shii-cho:
1) Transition time of swings is halved
2) MP gain is reduced of 1 (any situation)
3) DP cost to block saber swings and shots is reduced of 1

Makashi: DP cost to block shots is increased of 1, attack fakes deal 1 MP to the defender
1) Start time of swings is halved
2) When the opponent is attack parried, he doesn't get the MP reduction
3) Attacks and attack fakes give 2 MP to the defender if he doesn't parry

Soresu:
1) DP cost to block shots is reduced of 2
2) Parrying and attack parrying DP cost is halved.
3) Attacking an opponent in a slow bounce, heavy bounce, or stumble deals 150% DP

Shien/Djem-so:
1) 150% of the other styles' swing speed (does not affect start time and transition time)
2) Deflections are more accurate of X (I'd need to know how much it is right now)
3) Attacking an enemy makes him lose 1 FP if he doesn't parry

Juyo/Vapaad:
1) DP cost to dodge is reduced of 5
2) Running swings do 200% DP damage (instead of 150%)
3) Released attack fakes deal 125% of normal attack fake damage

Dual: Low DP damage, but can hit 2 times with 1 attack
1) Never fully disarmed
2) No extra cost for attack fakes direction changes
3) Can parry while swinging (Because with 2 sabers you can have defense and attack at same time)

Staff: Low DP damage, but can hit 2 times with 1 attack
1) Cannot be disarmed (at all)
2) Can block all around for no extra DP cost
3) Allows chain swings: everytime you attack the opponent and he doesn't parry, you get 1 extra attack point (AP) which is added to the next DP damage, it is cumulative.
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Old 06-07-2007, 06:40 AM   #20
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I'd rather we just change the current ones slightly, buff them for level 2 and instate a nerf. No need to stress out acenukka before he goes.

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Old 06-07-2007, 11:53 AM   #21
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Then let's keep this for later, just a little for now.

But why buff them for level 2? There are 3 levels...
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Old 06-07-2007, 06:29 PM   #22
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TheShaman, I liked a lot of what you're suggesting, but I think we need to be very careful about the percentages by which we adjust animation speeds. Based on the balancing and realism, I don't think we can get way with more than a -/+%25 difference in speed.

Here's the summary of what the internet says about saber styles:

Shii-Cho:
Pro:
- multiple opponents with blasters
- disarming/destroying an opponent's weapon
Con:
- solo lightsaber opponent
- Makashi is designed to counter this style's disarm
My Suggestion:
- MP damage on unparried attacks
- Less DP for bolt blocking
- Reduced/No DP penalty for blocking rear attacks

Makashi:
Pro:
- relies on parries, thrusts, and small, precise cuts to wear down opponent
- Counters disarm/destroy moves
- attack and defend with minimal effort, while his opponent tires himself out
- Uses feints and trickery to create an opening in opponent's defenses.
Con:
- speed and accuracy, not about strength
- Can't really handle heavy attacks (like from Shien/Djem-So or from multiple enemies/attacks).
My Suggestion:
- Lower DP for parries
- Attack fakes are cheaper
- Lower DP attack damage
- Should cost more Skill Points
- Lower FP usage

Soresu:
Pro:
- Ultimate Defensive Stance
- Designed for vs blaster combat
Con:
- Less saber power and range since saber held back for defense
My Suggestion:
- Weak DP attack damage
- Less DP cost for blocking and parrying
- Lower FP usage for defense

Djem So:
Pro:
- Powerful attacks
- Pushing back the opponent with heavy parries
- More focused on returning bolt attacks back to their origin
Con:
- Lack of mobility
- Requires a lot of energy to do
My Suggestion:
- Increased probability of reflected bolt attacks
- Slight pushback to opponents when parried
- Higher DP attack damage
- Should cost more Skill Points
- Higher MP cost when parried
- Higer FP cost to swing

Juyo:
Pro:
- Unpredictable
- Heavy hitting
Con:
- Hardest to learn style
My Suggestion:
- High Skill Point cost
- High DP attack damage
- attack fakes are cheaper

(There's no much on the internet about the staff and dual saber styles so I'm winging it)
Staff:
Pro:
- Two blades
- Easy to block attacks in any direction
Con:
- Lots of movement to use
My Suggestion:
- High Skill Point cost
- Higher FP cost to swing
- No DP penalty for blocking rear attacks

Dual (Jar'Kai):
Pro:
- Two blades
- Can't loose both blades
Con:
- Hard to learn style
- Loose grip on saber handles
My Suggestion:
- High Skill Point cost


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Old 06-07-2007, 09:44 PM   #23
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There was a guy at JKFiles who left this comment, and I though some parts I disagree with, he does make some points:

Quote:
You're basically re iterating what I said JR, I've been following your styles and perks threads... and the play style by PLAYERS is what differentiates... not the styles themselves... and that is not what combat with FLAIR and STYLE is about. What make games like SF and Tekken was that in ADDITION to a player having a certain mentality, the MOVES and STYLE of each character also influenced and helped to create nuance and individuality. I don't play Armor King the way I play Lei WuLong, I don't play Ruy the way I play Guile; irrespective of whether or not I'm playing them aggressively or turtle-ing up or attempting something in between.... The current version of OJP has very little DIFFERENTIATION of CHARACTER and UNIQUENESS between stances or the seven "ways" if you guys end up going that route. You need unique moves for each stance, with unique properties, and a method that makes each style obvious from the get go rather the basic/generic "this uses double FP but leads to an auto slowbounce when successful"... If every fighter ion SF looked and played like ryu but one was a LITTLE faster or a LITTLE stronger... it's not COMPELLING. With every GOOD combat game balance has taken a secondary role to style and truth of character. VF isn't balanced, Tekken isn't balanced and SF was pretty much broken in the equality dept from the get go.. Yet people played and continue to play because it's interesting it's fun and it's COMPELLING and smart playing is rewarded... which is something you guys need to work on... because only the good playing is rewarded seems to be fleshed out.

Don't let the universe be your spokesman. The reason why Duality and Ryan vs Dorkman and Art of the Saber get hella dls is they use the universe as a backdrop that they take further, which personally I don't think you guys have done yet. At this point you might as well call it "Generic Light Saber Simulation" 009u.
Only increasing and decreasing FP/DP costs just doesn't seem to cut it in making each style "feel" different. I know we have time constraints here, but we should consider what kind of unique features different styles provide can make a player really want to use it. Varied skill point costs for styles should mean that the styles with the highest cost should have very rewarding perks for trading in so many points. Example: cheaper attack fakes won't really be worth the extra 3 or 4 points for purchasing Juyo.

Changing the animation speeds...I dunno, I like the pace of battle now where all the style swings are the same speed.

The 200% DP damage run swing is already in as a complementary feature of the insta-kill from getting hit while doing running swings.


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Old 06-07-2007, 10:07 PM   #24
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I kind of like those ideas razor, though I think the following changes/additions should be made:

Shii cho - I still like the slightly faster mp gain

Juyo - award FP points (5 or 10) for doing special things like kick knockdowns, conversion disarms and MP maxouts. Since its the hardest to learn and costs the most, and there is no good style for earning back some FP, I think this is a fair idea.

Makahi - I still like the MP damage for unparried attack with this style.

Ataru (single dual) - No or less FP cost for backflips, cartwheels and arials (yellow DFAs). Sightly stronger swings. If possible, give this version of dual single saber block anims. Higher point cost

Niman - (single staff) Dead accurate deflection always. less DP damage attacking. less DP cost for deflection. Higher point cost.

Staff - No saberlocks on you unless you have critical DP or high MP. No back extra back damage. less attack damage. Running hits on you do less DP damage (maybe x 1.5). 2 FP to attack (maybe, I remember the last time we made it cost more, it made it useless). Costs more. Kicks cost no or little FP or can parry while kicking. Maybe Juyo as prerequisite (since staff really is juyo anyways)

Dual - More attack damage. greater MP cost for getting parried and all unparried attacks against you do 1 mp (or more with makashi) Faster or no parry recovery time. less DP for deflection. Higher cost. Always have one saber when disarmed. Maybe Niman as prerequisite since the seven forms thing says more people learn that first.


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Old 06-08-2007, 03:16 AM   #25
Maxstate
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Razor:
I really like those ideas, but we should buff AND nerf their perks and cons a lot if they want to make any difference. Also you shouldn't be able to get them all.

Tanq:
I've been saying this for a while too but this guy expects too much out of an old system that was never meant to have any kind of fighting. I think we did an excellent job, I still use Juyo differently than I use Djem-so, but sometimes you just 'feel' something isn't right. The buffs (and future nerfs) need to be large enough to make a difference so I know which style I'm using without looking at my hud, the styles should be cheap enough to be able to get, but expensive to master and expensive enough to not be a clickfest after you've earned some points.

Hocks, staff is not really Juyo, staff is whatever style the user is using currently, your Niman sounds more like a Djem-So/Shien combo.
Juyo should not be about regenerating FP. If any style should fit that moniker it should be Niman as it's the balanced and force-resistant style.

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Old 06-08-2007, 06:41 PM   #26
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Quote:
Hocks, staff is not really Juyo, staff is whatever style the user is using currently, your Niman sounds more like a Djem-So/Shien combo.
Juyo should not be about regenerating FP. If any style should fit that moniker it should be Niman as it's the balanced and force-resistant style.
ARRgh, Yeah your right. I read the wrong form! Although the staff only , really appears with Juyo in the movies. combined probably with dunmoc or whatever its called.

yeah Razor, what he said. reverse those


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Old 06-08-2007, 07:47 PM   #27
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You shouldn't be able to get them all? Why not? if they spend the points...


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Old 06-08-2007, 07:48 PM   #28
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Because then we're back at square one. The whole buyable style thing stemmed from the discussion of limiting them to 2 or 3 (mastery) per user unless otherwise bought.

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Old 06-09-2007, 06:33 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by "Tanqexe"
I did a quick mock-up (sorry bjuster, I bastardized your menu pic for expediency):
Do not worry, your punishment will come eventually...

Anyway, let me start with the useful and contributing part of my post.

I mostly agree with the ideas RazorAce posted, as those seem to be just what we need. I also agree with Max in that we should make the pros and the cons of each style really stand out, so buff the pros and nerf the cons here and there mainly.

There are a few things I would like to add:

Makashi: I don't know if there should be any additional MP damage added at all. Since this style is about speed, agility, flexibilty and technique, I'd say we'd convert the MP damage to DP damage. Makashi is one of the best styles to use against other lightsaberists, but should be next to useless against blasters. So, as an added con, I would suggest perhaps 150% DP usage when deflecting blaster bolts.

Soresu: This ultimate defensive style should be the opposite of Makashi when it comes to fighting enemies with guns. Perhaps 50% DP usage when deflecting blaster bolts and a higher chance (75%, opposed to 50%) of deflecting it to where your crosshair aims to when using manual deflection.

Djem-So: I am not to keen on this style, but I find it weird that this one actually has an increased deflection probability in RazorAce's list instead of Soresu. Also, the lack of mobility should make a Jedi/Sith using this style walk a tad bit slower than usual and it should probably have an increased FP cost for doing acrobatic moves.

Furthermore, I agree with Max again on the fact that you should not be able to get them all. I think you should be able to get Shii-Cho and 2 other styles. A nice idea might be to make one new (read: any) style available with a 40 or 50 experience point threshold. So, at the beginning, one might only be able to learn Shii-Cho and one or two more styles, while later, when passing the 50 XP mark, the player can buy an additional style. Note that 50 is just a number, you could even make it 100 if you want.
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Old 06-09-2007, 10:52 AM   #30
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Soresu is defensive against blasters, which means it focuses on keeping your self alive, not on killing the opponents, whereas Shien/Djem-so focuses on killing your opponent (gunner), that's why Soresu shouldn't be more accurate, but should cost less DP to deflect, and Djem-so be more accurate, but usual price.
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Old 06-09-2007, 10:55 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShaman
Soresu is defensive against blasters, which means it focuses on keeping your self alive, not on killing the opponents, whereas Shien/Djem-so focuses on killing your opponent (gunner), that's why Soresu shouldn't be more accurate, but should cost less DP to deflect, and Djem-so be more accurate, but usual price.
Indeed, Soresu can take a shi'iteload of blasterfire and deflect it all away easily - just like saber attacks. However Djem-so/Shien can probably take less consecutively while being able to reflect most of them back at the opponent with the means of killing them.

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Old 06-09-2007, 10:58 AM   #32
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RazorAce, what do you mean with "Lower FP usage" for Makashi and Soresu?
And do you mean Juyo should have no extra FP cost for attack fakes? (like dual now)
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Old 06-09-2007, 04:31 PM   #33
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A lot of the recent suggestions are variations on what I've already suggested in the 3rd post of this thread - buffing/nerfing style strengths/weaknesses, making some styles more expensive on a tiered system, etc.

Maybe we should just hold a poll, seems like they're very much in fashion these days


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Old 06-09-2007, 04:50 PM   #34
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I don't think we should restrict the number of allowed styles. If someone wants to be a blade master, that's fine with me.

TheShaman, maybe Lower FP usage should mean the blocking shouldn't cost FP to use. For Makashi, this might mean lower FP for swings as well. And yes, I'm guessing that attack fakes should be free.


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Old 06-10-2007, 05:43 AM   #35
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But blocking doesn't take FP, unless you are fighting a Djem-so user...
And swings cost 1 FP... making it less is hard.
What about making Djem-so drain 2 FP per swing (since it costs 2 FP to attack)
and make Soresu and Makashi only lose 1 FP when blocking Djem-so?

Also, if I understood what you meant, you want Shii-cho to give MP to the enemy, instead of Makashi?
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Old 06-11-2007, 08:27 AM   #36
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I think it would be better if Djem-So attacks do MP damage to the enemy if they are unparried. Makashi should then be doing (additional) MP damage to the enemy if they succesfully parry an enemy attack.
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Old 06-11-2007, 08:37 AM   #37
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No Djem-so should not give MP, I disagree, Djem so tires the opponent, draining FP is the best for it. Makashi shouldn't have very high DP damage, but maybe MP damage (I also thought about giving MP damage to Juyo before, but since it already has high DP damage, it's a bad idea), and what about Shii-cho? I think I've heard Razor talk about some MP damage caused by Shii-cho. Waiting for response...
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Old 06-11-2007, 03:32 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShaman
But blocking doesn't take FP, unless you are fighting a Djem-so user...
And swings cost 1 FP... making it less is hard.
What about making Djem-so drain 2 FP per swing (since it costs 2 FP to attack)
and make Soresu and Makashi only lose 1 FP when blocking Djem-so?

Also, if I understood what you meant, you want Shii-cho to give MP to the enemy, instead of Makashi?
Well, the problem I see with this is that every player has 100 FP, so having equal FP drain for block/attack doesn't help you very much. Maybe we should leave it at higher DP drain and leave it at that.

And yes, I'm suggesting that Shii-Cho should add MP because it's specifically designed to attempt to disarm your oppenent.


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Old 06-11-2007, 05:46 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razorace

And yes, I'm suggesting that Shii-Cho should add MP because it's specifically designed to attempt to disarm your oppenent.
That's Makashi

Maybe we should lose the names and just use the Form names?
That also reinforces the idea of using a form and creating your own style to it.

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Old 06-11-2007, 08:04 PM   #40
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i prefure the names as with FMIII i would forget what style went with what # and it got kinda confusing

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