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Old 09-29-2007, 05:45 PM   #121
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That there are atheists who...to use the specific example here, put the unethical into ethical makes me ashamed that they are representing a nonbelief of god.
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Old 09-29-2007, 08:43 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue Warrior
That there are atheists who...to use the specific example here, put the unethical into ethical makes me ashamed that they are representing a nonbelief of god.
I'm not sure how that works. If some crazy group of serial killers all happen to be right-handed, should I feel ashamed that they are "representing" right-handed people? Tools represent themselves. Their non-belief has absolutely nothing to do with it.
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Old 09-29-2007, 11:26 PM   #123
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Allow me to explain. If an atheist says we should kill Christians how do you think you would feel?
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Old 09-29-2007, 11:28 PM   #124
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I think I would disagree with him.
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Old 09-29-2007, 11:47 PM   #125
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Good. Most people would, and have the idea that atheists are like this.
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Old 09-30-2007, 02:31 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by tk102
Saying something is an untruth, implies you know the truth. Is that what you intended?
No. Saying something is a lie is implying that they know the truth. An untruth is more general as it is just something that isn't true. Of all the beliefs of a religion at least one must be wrong and so is an untruth, even though they do not know it is wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue Warrior
That there are atheists who...to use the specific example here, put the unethical into ethical makes me ashamed that they are representing a nonbelief of god.
They aren't representing a nonbelief of God but are representing a belief that no God's exist. There is a subtle difference between passively believing that there isn't a deity and actively believing that no God's exist.

If you passively think this then you have decided, for whatever reason, that God's cannot exist. You do not run you're life by this concept, much like the young child has no idea of God and so cannot run their life by this concept.

If you actively think this then you try to bring religion down and pick holes in it at whatever oppertunity. You would treat people who are religious as stupid because they believe in something they think is blatently stupid.


Sometimes in life you're the pigeon. Other times you're the statue.

Last edited by Jae Onasi; 09-30-2007 at 02:45 PM. Reason: fixed quote tag
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Old 09-30-2007, 03:23 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Rogue Warrior
Good. Most people would, and have the idea that atheists are like this.
Well I'm not sure how much can be done about that. If the aforementioned serial killers decided to proclaim their actions as a symbol of right-handedness, I'm not sure that there would be a right-handed coalition ready to step forward to denounce the actions of the serial killers.

I guess this is just one more example of how blatant misconceptions of atheism continue to occasionally make life difficult for atheists. Of course, my hope would be that any rational person would quickly (and of their own volition) determine that these serial killers couldn't possibly represent all right-handed people, however as reality shows us every day, irrationality is rewarded is very powerful circles.

Last edited by Achilles; 09-30-2007 at 03:52 PM. Reason: problems with prefixes
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Old 10-01-2007, 04:17 AM   #128
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It might be a vocal minority, but those who are actively opposed to religion seem to do atheists a lot of disservice.
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:58 AM   #129
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I'm not sure what that has to do with the point I was making or the discussion that we were having.
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Old 10-01-2007, 12:43 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Rogue Warrior
It might be a vocal minority, but those who are actively opposed to religion seem to do atheists a lot of disservice.
I'm curious. Secular people's opinion of people who are opposed to religion is that they are opinionated. Theists believe they are opinionated. Extremists believe all secular people are immoral and nothing will change that. You can't win, people either think you're good or bad and most people will get to know you before they decide. I've always thought that if someone judges you before getting to know you they aren't worth knowing.

What is the point your trying to make?


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Old 10-02-2007, 05:01 AM   #131
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That hatred of religion is not going to win hearts and minds. Or should we be more hateful and violent?
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Old 10-02-2007, 06:01 AM   #132
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I see more that religion is violent and hateful against religion.


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Old 10-02-2007, 11:32 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue Warrior
That hatred of religion is not going to win hearts and minds.
Possibly. I bet that questioning religion will though.

Always with the extremes, "Rogue Warrior".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue Warrior
Or should we be more hateful and violent?
You know this might be good advice for the fundies. It might actually have an audience there.
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Old 10-02-2007, 02:18 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Rogue Warrior
That hatred of religion is not going to win hearts and minds. Or should we be more hateful and violent?
Is it just me or did I say nothing about hating religion. I specifically said that I just live my life as it comes and avoid people who are total nutters. I really dont care what religion people believe in so long as they dont come to me telling me I'm going to hell and I'm a bad person when they dont even know me. Live and let live.

Also if I hear one more person say "hearts and minds" I might saw my head off with a rusty pen. I have no power over anyone - I can't win hearts and minds. The way for politicians and armies to win "hearts and minds" is to make life better for them - a thing that hasn't happened in Iraq.


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Old 10-02-2007, 09:17 PM   #135
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Clearly we should be fighting against the evil that is religion. My question is how aggressive we must be. Is it simply a matter of breaking theists or is it more?
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Old 10-02-2007, 10:05 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen''
Clearly we should be fighting against the evil that is religion. My question is how aggressive we must be. Is it simply a matter of breaking theists or is it more?
Erm...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Clearly we should be fighting against questioning the evil irrational dogmatism that is religion. My question is how aggressive diligent we must be. Is it simply a matter of breaking theists promoting rational thinking or is it more?
I believe that we should be as diligent as we can. I mean, we are talking about our rights, and in some cases our lives, after all. We have the same rights to free speech as everyone else. If theists choose to voice their thoughts and opinions in a public forum, then we have the right to questions those thoughts an opinions just as they would have the right to question ours. The unfortunate thing about dogmatism however is that it's impervious to reason; the conclusion is foregone and unchangeable, therefore most attempts at reasoned discourse end poorly.

The good news is that simply refusing to be cowed by taboo might inspire others to speak out or cause those that haven't thought too much about it one way or the other to really question what it is that they believe. So even though you might never, ever get through to the fundie, you might still be able to reach someone. And once there are enough people willing to speak out against being governed by superstition and people that believe that they are in constant contact with their imaginary friends, then we might begin to see meaningful change.

Cheers.
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Old 10-03-2007, 07:19 AM   #137
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Why then do we see atheists consistently getting it wrong?
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Old 10-03-2007, 10:13 AM   #138
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We see atheists getting what consistently wrong?


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Old 10-03-2007, 01:13 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Rogue Warrior
Why then do we see atheists consistently getting it wrong?
What is "it"?

Also what is your point of argument? Are you arguing against theism, atheism or for theism or atheism? You have been arguing for quite a while with random directions in your agument. Try padding out your posts with points not just opinions.

Sos if this seems a bit harsh but the thread was really breaking down into random arguments about almost nothing.


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Old 10-03-2007, 05:36 PM   #140
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By it I refer to the way atheists negatively present themselves, and by extension atheism as a whole despite the fallacy of atheism being portrayed solely on the individual. Such as? Being arrogant, they use their intelligence of how evil religion is to beat down those who do not agree. Bullying, they keep on pressing the issue and pressing the issue. Condescending, they treat those who do not agree with them as though they are idiots. Double slandered, demand answers to their questions and then avoid any that they are asked. Ego maniacal, they go off about how they are 'such a smart ****.' Fascist, anything that is not of their own belief is immediately dismissed as being deluded. Goading, they try and bait their opponents in a debate to act. And then there are those who feel that hatred, intolerance and even violence are acceptable methods of dealing with the evil of religion.
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Old 10-03-2007, 05:55 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen''
By it I refer to the way atheists negatively present themselves
Ok, let's try it:

Why then do we see atheists consistently getting the way that they negatively present themselves wrong?

Not sure that helps. Would you be willing to try again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen''
and by extension atheism as a whole despite the fallacy of atheism being portrayed solely on the individual.
Not sure how it's a fallacy if it's true. You've been invited on several occations to present evidence for a central athiest doctrine, but have not. Therefore, if there is not central doctrine that guides behavior, then only individuals can be held accountable for what they do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen''
Such as? Being arrogant, they use their intelligence of how evil religion is to beat down those who do not agree.
So you would feel better if atheists (as a whole) were less intelligent?

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Originally Posted by Nancy Allen''
Bullying, they keep on pressing the issue and pressing the issue.
Participation in these forums is voluntary. No one is forcing you to read. Also, if theists have the right to post their thoughts and opinions, then atheists have an equal right to post theirs' (and vice versa).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen''
Condescending, they treat those who do not agree with them as though they are idiots.
Bad arguments and fallacious thinking are bad arguments and fallacious thinking. Not sure how the shody rationale for theism is our fault. If people don't like having their arguments refuted then perhaps they aren't prepared to participate in such dialogs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen''
Double slandered, demand answers to their questions and then avoid any that they are asked.
That's quite the accusation, coming from you (as he painstakingly responds to every single point in this post, knowing that none of his points will be acknowledged).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen''
Ego maniacal, they go off about how they are 'such a smart ****.'
Examples?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen''
Fascist, anything that is not of their own belief is immediately dismissed as being deluded.
And when the belief actually is delusional? Again, not sure how that's our fault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen''
Goading, they try and bait their opponents in a debate to act.
Guilty. Although in my defense I don't think it's wrong to ask for straight answers to straight questions when a dialog is being held in good faith. So maybe I'm only partially to blame on that one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen''
And then there are those who feel that hatred, intolerance and even violence are acceptable methods of dealing with the evil of religion.
Yep, I'm sure that there are. Just like those right-handed serial killers.
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Old 10-03-2007, 06:12 PM   #142
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Jessie actually.

I guess my greatest fear, without going in depth about it, is that people would see atheists as jerks and side with religion.
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Old 10-03-2007, 06:20 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor the Bassis
Also what is your point of argument? Are you arguing against theism, atheism or for theism or atheism? You have been arguing for quite a while with random directions in your agument.
I think this might help to explain part of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen''
I guess my greatest fear, without going in depth about it, is that people would see atheists as jerks and side with religion.
When it comes to "truthiness", I tend to concern myself more with accuracy than popularity.
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Old 10-03-2007, 06:29 PM   #144
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Even if you turn people away from atheism and to religion?
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Old 10-03-2007, 06:32 PM   #145
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You can't please all of the people all of the time, therefore all you can do is what's right.
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Old 10-04-2007, 06:50 AM   #146
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Maybe you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
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Old 10-04-2007, 07:28 AM   #147
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At the end of the day a steaming pile of crap is what will get you flies to no extend.


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Old 10-04-2007, 10:53 AM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Allen''
Maybe you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
A bird in hand is worth two in the bush.
A stitch in time saves nine.
Etc, etc.
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Old 10-04-2007, 11:06 AM   #149
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Achilles, you have her name all wrong.

It's not the apostrophe ('). It's the grave accent (`).




have a suggestion for the lf poll? pm me
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Old 10-04-2007, 11:42 AM   #150
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I thought it looked different. Thank you for the correction.
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Old 10-04-2007, 12:26 PM   #151
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Continuance!


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Old 10-04-2007, 12:38 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue Warrior
Maybe you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
This is true but who wants flies in your honey? To be honest if people are fickle enough to run to religion just because they dont like the publicity of atheism who are they really cheating? In the end I see religion as more like honey - who knows how it was made and where it came from but it looks sweet and nice until you get stuck and you cant get out of it.

Surely people choose what they want to believe in and aren't swayed by how a religion is though of. Religions or atheism isn't just about attracting 'fans' as a football club would but about showing a belief and trying to make people better.


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Old 10-04-2007, 12:40 PM   #153
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Quote:
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Continuance!
Sorry.
Nancy's argument is that atheists should be extra careful to play really nice with theists because they....well I'm not sure what her reasoning is, but I think it has to do something with scaring them off or offending them or something.

My contention is that this kind of thinking isn't present anywhere else. People that don't believe in the loch ness monster don't feel compelled to walk on eggshells around those that do for fear of offending them somehow. Neither do they worry too much about trying to gently cajole them into maybe someday just possibly thinking about reexamining their beliefs (but only if they want to. No rush!).

If I walked up to people on the street and told them that god spoke to me while I was rolling around in feces, they'd think I was nuts. But if I told them that he spoke to me while I was rolling around in church, they'd tell me I was blessed.

So, as I have stated several times before, I'm don't think for a second that I'm ever going to be able to reason with Nancy, or Jae, or Darth InSidious but perhaps my dialog with them will strike a chord with others. The gist is that the flies will do whatever they want, so the whole vinegar vs. honey thing is pretty irrelevant.
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Old 10-04-2007, 12:59 PM   #154
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I wholeheartly doubt any religious person would turn atheist just because 'dem people are so nice and adorable', nor would any atheist turn to religion just because the neighbourhood bully is atheist. And as a true atheist one cannot become a "believer". Ever.


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Old 10-04-2007, 01:28 PM   #155
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And as a true atheist one cannot become a "believer". Ever.
I don't know about that one. There are many accounts of people that claim to be former atheists that are now theists. While some of these people's accounts are questionable (lying for credibility is hardly a new concept) , I'm sure that some are legitimate.
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Old 10-04-2007, 01:44 PM   #156
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What I am having trouble with is the fact that one can accept something to be divine intervention or whatever when he actually doesn't believe in the existence of a god.

Furthermore, why chose a specific religion just because you met god? It all sounds pretty much made up to me.


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Old 10-04-2007, 02:01 PM   #157
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What I am having trouble with is the fact that one can accept something to be divine intervention or whatever when he actually doesn't believe in the existence of a god.
Too many possible scenarios to cover. Let's just say that I believe that there is a social pressure to conform that can, in some circumstances, act as a proverbial chink in the armor. I also believe that we're to some degree hard-wired to look for causality and when faced with a situation where the answer is "I don't know", people tend to freak out (hence my earlier thread on dealing with the unknown in Kavar's) and make stuff up and/or jump to conclusions.

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Furthermore, why chose a specific religion just because you met god? It all sounds pretty much made up to me.
Enculturation is a bitch.
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Old 10-04-2007, 04:10 PM   #158
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While that might be correct, without a religious base already set up in your mind it's hard to conclude such things.


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Old 10-04-2007, 04:37 PM   #159
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Quote:
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While that might be correct, without a religious base already set up in your mind it's hard to conclude such things.
Well, unless one is raised under a rock, enculturation is a more than adequate explanation for such a "religious base".
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Old 10-04-2007, 05:04 PM   #160
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Well. Depends. When you define East Germany as 'under a rock', then yes. But I am afraid no. ;~


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