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Old 05-31-2008, 02:15 AM   #1
The Source
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Arrow Debate:: The True Sith :: Spoilers Inside!

Debate:: The True Sith :: Spoilers Inside!
If you want to find out who they are, be here sunday night for the debate. I have tons of facts to be tested and examined. The answer is simpler than you think.

At this very moment, I am reading through "Knights of the Old Republic: Darth Bane: Rule of Two". After reading through both novels and playing both games, I know exactly what is mean by 'true Sith'. If you noticed how I used the phrase, I used a lowercase for the word 'true'. This is an essential grammar element, which focuses the logic behind 'true Sith'. Within another thread in this very forum, I laid out the ground work for explaining the meaning of 'true Sith'. Saturday night and into sunday, I will create a summary about my findings. Keep in mind that I am drawing driectly from both novels and games. "Knights of the Old Republic: Darth Bane" series explains the whole concept very clearly. Most importantly, "They are not a species." I am also going to draw connections with the main three movies. I invite all of you Sunday night to participate in an extensive debate. After I lay out the ground work, I hope you people will challange my findings. I will reference page numbers from the novels, I will attempted to remember all of Kreia's lines exaclty, and I will create collations to the movies.

To prepare everyone for the debate, I want those who are interested in this subject to answer these next two questions.

(Don't answer them until Sunday, so we are all here.)

Why are the following people not 'true Sith'?:
- Sion (KotOR II)
- Nhilius (KotOR II)
- Kreia (KotOR II)

Why are the following people 'true Sith'?:
- Revan
- Malek
- Vader
- Palpatine
- Kreia (Before KotOR II)
- Zannah
- Bane

Since Obsidian tried to keep the logic behind 'true Sith' mysterious, they encrypted the whole concept in a horrible manner. As a result of their rush to meet a moved up deadline, they messed up the whole 'true Sith' concept by being too encrypted. Several lines in "KotOR II" were missleading, for they used 'True Sith' in reference to a title. I will explain more on Sunday around 8:00 pm..

(My reasoning for the wait until Sunday: I want to write up a sumarry, which is clear and precise as possible. I want to make sure that I make absolute sense. Since there is a mess of information to go through, I don't want to make anyone confussed. Its 2:30 am where I am now. If I try and tackle the subject now, I am going to mess up in a major way.)



R.I.P. to 'The Source' and 'MacCorp'
2004-2008

Last edited by The Source; 06-21-2008 at 07:47 PM.
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Old 06-01-2008, 07:54 AM   #2
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If I may...

Quote:
Why are the following people not 'true Sith'?:
- Sion (KotOR II)
- Nhilius (KotOR II)
- Kreia (KotOR II)
Because they seek power for their own cause. Nihilus to end his hunger, Sion to overcome his pain, Kreia to..'kill the Force' or something.

Quote:
Why are the following people 'true Sith'?:
- Revan
- Malek
- Vader
- Palpatine
- Kreia (Before KotOR II)
- Zannah
- Bane
-Revan sacrificed himself for the Republic. This seeking power to end something, not for him alone.
-Malak, same thing.
-Vader sought the power to heal his wife, but to ESTABLISH order as well. To create peace. So...50/50
-Palpatine did go for his own power, so I don't think he is a True Sith.
-Kreia before K2 sought to find out why people turned DS, after Revan abandoned her. Seems she would look for an honest answer and solution, but only find herself corrupted. So good and a 'true' goal.
-Zannah. No idea...don't know her...haven't read the Bane novels, only a summary about Bane.
-Bane sought the power to keep the Sith alive, establish the rule of 2. Also a true Sith.

is that your definition of 'True Sith?' Someone like, Caedus, who can use both LS and DS and not be corrupted by it? People who sacrifice themselves for a greater good? Martyrs?

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Old 06-01-2008, 09:24 AM   #3
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It's Sunday here, so here goes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Source View Post
Why are the following people not 'true Sith'?:
- Sion (KotOR II)
- Nhilius (KotOR II)
- Kreia (KotOR II)

Why are the following people 'true Sith'?:
- Revan
- Malek
- Vader
- Palpatine
- Kreia (Before KotOR II)
- Zannah
- Bane
I'd think the former do not care about the future of the Sith as an Order, while the latter does. Like Ztalker said, Sion, Nihilus and Traya had only their own interests at heart, not the interests of a Sith Order, while Traya before she was exiled was trying to resume Revan's work, which was building a strong Sith Order. Revan and Malak were obviously trying to create a powerful Sith Order and so did Bane (and therefore Zannah probably too, I assume) the same, albeit in a whole different way. The same goes for Palpatine and Vader. I do not agree with Ztalker, as Palpatine told Yoda that Vader would become more powerful than either of them, so it would seem that was important to him, the continuation of the Sith as an order.
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Old 06-01-2008, 10:31 AM   #4
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Quote:
Why are the following people not 'true Sith'?:
- Sion (KotOR II)
- Nhilius (KotOR II)
- Kreia (KotOR II)
Because they are not members of the "True Sith" empire which Darth Traya refers to at the end of KOTOR 2. If you are referring to some other form of "true Sith", then I don't see why they're any less of a "true" Sith than anyone else.

Quote:
Why are the following people 'true Sith'?:
- Revan
- Malek
- Vader
- Palpatine
- Kreia (Before KotOR II)
- Zannah
- Bane
None of them are, for the same reasons that the above three weren't. Again, if you don't mean the True Sith as referenced in K2, I don't see why they wouldn't be.


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"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 06-01-2008, 10:38 AM   #5
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I agree with TKA-001: Kreia explicitly states at the end of K2 that Revan and his followers are not part of the true Sith, and that Revan himself has left to fight them in the Unknown Regions. None of the Sith listed here would belong to the "true Sith" group imo.
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Old 06-01-2008, 10:41 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Igos View Post
I agree with TKA-001: Kreia explicitly states at the end of K2 that Revan and his followers are not part of the true Sith, and that Revan himself has left to fight them in the Unknown Regions. None of the Sith listed here would belong to the "true Sith" group imo.
I don't remember for sure, but did Kreia say that Revan left to fight "them", or "it"? If it's "them", that indicates that the "True Sith" are a race. If it's not "them", it could be an ideal or belief. I don't think she ever explicitly or implicitly stated it was a race.


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Old 06-01-2008, 10:59 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurges-Ahter View Post
I don't remember for sure, but did Kreia say that Revan left to fight "them", or "it"? If it's "them", that indicates that the "True Sith" are a race. If it's not "them", it could be an ideal or belief. I don't think she ever explicitly or implicitly stated it was a race.
Exile: But we have fought the Sith
Kreia: Have we? You thought that the corrupted remnants of the Republic, the machines spawned by Revan technology were the Sith? You'd be wrong. The Sith is a belief, and its empire, the true Sith empire rules elsewhere. (...)And Revan knew that the true war was not against the Republic: It awaits for us beyond the outer rim, and he has gone to fight it his own way.

Kreia mentions the Sith as a belief, but also as a physical entity that Revan goes to fight against. I'd argue that when she says that the Sith "are a belief", she does so to distinguish between those who were once Jedi and the fell to the dark side, and those who are truly Sith. There could be other interpretations, though.
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Old 06-01-2008, 11:02 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Igos View Post
Exile: But we have fought the Sith
Kreia: Have we? You thought that the corrupted remnants of the Republic, the machines spawned by Revan technology were the Sith? You'd be wrong. The Sith is a belief, and its empire, the true Sith empire rules elsewhere. (...)And Revan knew that the true war was not against the Republic: It awaits for us beyond the outer rim, and he has gone to fight it his own way.

Kreia mentions the Sith as a belief, but also as a physical entity that Revan goes to fight against. I'd argue that when she says that the Sith "are a belief", she does so to distinguish between those who were once Jedi and the fell to the dark side, and those who are truly Sith. There could be other interpretations, though.
Where does she say the true Sith is a physical entity? I think that's the assumption The Source is referring to and trying to debunk. He's saying it wasn't the intent to imply that, but in keeping the true Sith so mysterious, that's why people believe it. Intead, if it is a belief and not a race, the characters The Source named (Bane, Revan, etc) could be true Sith. I'm not saying they are; just that they could be. I believe it is a false assumption to make that the true Sith is a physical entity based on what Kreia said.


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Old 06-01-2008, 11:06 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurges-Ahter View Post
Where does she say the true Sith is a physical entity?
How do you wage war against non-real enemies? Kreia spoke about an empire that rules in the Unknown regions, and also encourages the Exile to go fight them as well ("Perhaps you may join him and battle them at the end of all things" or so).
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Old 06-01-2008, 11:42 AM   #10
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In many ways, such a discussion about what the "Sith" truly is would eventually tie into real-world politics and philosophies, and as such, I'll save that for the appropriate forum.


Anyway, I'll be interested in reading The Source's article, but prior to doing so, I think that there's the "True Sith" and then there's the frauds running around acting as Sith. The list in the OP is pretty good, though I do have a few disagreements with it. As a sidenote, I think the jury is still out on Zannah, as we don't know enough about her yet.


Taking into consideration that the Sith is a belief, then the "True Sith" are those who understand and follow that philosophy, and the frauds have a very strong misunderstanding of what the Sith truly are. Revan, Bane, Sadow, and Palpatine are one type of Sith, while other Dark Lords of the Sith are another type.

I might delve into this more later...
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Old 06-01-2008, 01:09 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Source View Post
(Don't answer them until Sunday, so we are all here.)
{snip}
I will explain more on Sunday around 8:00 pm..
{snip}
He said wait for him.

_EW_



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Old 06-01-2008, 01:12 PM   #12
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He didn't even give a time zone.


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

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"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 06-01-2008, 01:24 PM   #13
Zerimar Nyliram
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To me, "true Sith" has a number of definitions, and it depends upon who you ask.




1. First and foremost, I think "true Sith" refers to the true, unbroken line of Sith Lords from the Hundred Year Darkness until the fulfillment of the prophecy of balance. Every member of this organization would be ordained a Sith by a Sith Lord of said line, whether that Sith Lord be living or dead. Any "Sith" outside of this line is not a true Sith. This would mean that people like Lumiya, Starkiller, Flint and Verger are not Sith, despite what they themselves may believe. Although they received Sith training, they were never ordained at Sith Lord by either Sidious or Vader. This could not happen as it would violate the Rule of Two. This would also mean that Caedus was not truly a Sith as well, as the Sith were dead and there was not one living to ordain him, nor was he ordained by any Sith ghost.

Now, you might feel compelled here to bring up that this line was seemingly broken several times: between the Great Hyperspace War and Freedon Nadd and Exar Kun, between Exar Kun and Darth Revan, and between the Sith Triumvirate and Darth Ruin. However, this is not so. First, there was Freedon Nadd, who was trained and ordained by Naga Sadow (some account say that this happened while the latter was still alive, while others say that this was done by his ghost). Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma were ordained by the spirit of Marka Ragnos. With Revan it's not so clear, but I've seen vague sources that hint that there were still a few Sith left over from Exar Kun's order left or Korriban. Revan and Malak, proving their strength, likely would have dominated these Sith and forced them to ordain them into their order, and then immediately declared themselves their leaders. (Revan would later declare himself the new Dark Lord aboard the bridge of the Star Forge.) And sources indicate that an "unknown Darth" survived the war between the Republic and the Sith under Nihilus, and kept a small faction of the Sith Order going until the time of Darth Ruin. Ruin, who united all of the Sith clans, would also have united this one true line into his own, thus continuing the line up until Bane, and then the line continued in secret through the Rule of Two up until Plagueis, Sidious, Maul, Tyranus, and finally Vader.

Now, the Sith had been growing in power for a thousand years since the institution of the Rule of Two, thus tipping the scale in the dark side's favor. When Anakin Skywalker was redeemed, he destroyed the Sith, wiping them from existence, thus returning balance to the Force. There would be other "Sith" after him, such as his master's and his own former Dark Jedi apprentices, and Darth Caedus, but since they were not of the true line, they were not true Sith.

However, the true line of Sith did eventually return, first with Palpatine's resurrection and then with Darth Krayt, who was ordained by the spirit of the ancient Sith Lord XoXaan, who was of the true line. However, the same type of scheme that tipped the Force in the Sith's power -- namely living in secret and practicing their dark arts -- was never restored, so the Force was not unbalanced and it did not matter that the true Sith had returned.

Okay, that was my explanation for the first meaning. This, however, is not what I think Kreia was referring to. Now onto the others.



2. "True Sith" simply refers to the Sith species. Pure Sith blood untouched by the tamperings of their Dark Jedi conquerors. This also is not what Kreia meant, I think.



3. Like Kreia said, a belief. It refers to those Sith who actually cared about the Sith Order and its continuation. However, I wouldn't take it as far as what Ztalker is proposing with martyrs and selfless acts. These are are actions of the light side and directly opposed to Sith philosophy. No, a true Sith is out for him- or herself, as this is what the Sith are all about. However, he or she still wishes the order to thrive and prosper, so the trick is finding a balance between the two.

Two perfect examples of this way of thinking are Darths Bane and Sidious. Bane believed his contemporaries weak fools who had completely ruined the Sith Order and that it deserved to be taken away from him, and he was the one to do it. Palpatine's speach about Darth Plagueis during the opera is a great example of true Sith philosophy: choose a strong and able apprentice who will further the Sith after your death, but don't share with him all you know or you'll be done for before you know it.

"Choose someone as a successor and you will inevitably be succeeded. Choose someone hungrier and you will be devoured. Choose someone quicker and you won't dodge the blade at your back. Choose someone with more patience and you won't block the blade at your throat. Choose someone more devious and you'll hold the blade that kills you. Choose someone more clever and you'll never know your end.

Despite these cautions, an apprentice is essential. A Master without an apprentice is a Master of nothing."

--Palpatine, as quoted in the Telos Holocron




Those are my three understandings of what the "true Sith" are. I think that they need not conflict as all three are perfectly compatible.


Quote:
Originally Posted by a silly noob View Post
YOURS VERY SLOW ! PLS NEW PROGRESSS PLS NEW UPDATES PLS DARK FORCES FİNAL VERSİON İ CAN WAİTİNG KOTF PART 1 RELEASED 5 YEAR AND İTS 1 MAN ( OSMAN GUNYAZ DEVELOPERS ) BUT YOURS VERY PEOPLE İ CANT WAİTİNG 5 YEARS
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Old 06-01-2008, 01:30 PM   #14
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Regardless, he is making a summary on his findings....I think that he will post at like 11:00 PM Pacific Standard time (that is for me of course)...just a guess though...

____________

'True Sith'

In the KotOR series it said that the 'true' Sith were a species. Or a long those lines at least.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Source
Why are the following people not 'true Sith'?:
- Sion (KotOR II)
- Nhilius (KotOR II)
- Kreia (KotOR II)

Why are the following people 'true Sith'?:
- Revan
- Malek
- Vader
- Palpatine
- Kreia (Before KotOR II)
- Zannah
- Bane
Well, I don't think that Sion, Kreia, and Nihilius are 'true Sith' because they existed for their own selfish reasons, and nothing for the advancement of the Sith. This is just a guess though

And for the second part, I think that these guys are 'true Sith' because they made advancements for the Sith. They changed something, and made it live on. That is just a guess too, and I think that my thoughts will probably change after I hear your summary.

I can't wait to hear what you are going to say TS.


Last edited by Rev7; 06-01-2008 at 02:13 PM. Reason: Forgot to answer the question...
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Old 06-01-2008, 01:41 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKA-001 View Post
He didn't even give a time zone.
When he posts, it means he's ready.

And Zerimar - I just said you should wait for Source.

_EW_



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Old 06-01-2008, 01:48 PM   #16
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EW - why so angry people are posting now? The directions are not concise.
Quote:
To prepare everyone for the debate, I want those who are interested in this subject to answer these next two questions.

(Don't answer them until Sunday, so we are all here.)
Everyone waited until Sunday, and answered the two questions "to prepare", as The Source requested. Looks like the instructions, as written, were followed.


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Old 06-01-2008, 01:49 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin View Post
Wow. You people really don't listen, do you?

He said wait for him.

Do it.

_EW_
We can't give our preliminary thoughts on the subject matter?


I wasn't going to say anything in response to the OP when I first read the thread, but then when others responded I joined in as well.
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Old 06-01-2008, 02:28 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAWUSS View Post
We can't give our preliminary thoughts on the subject matter?


I wasn't going to say anything in response to the OP when I first read the thread, but then when others responded I joined in as well.
Well, he does specifically say wait.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurges-Ahter View Post
EW - why so angry people are posting now? The directions are not concise.

Everyone waited until Sunday, and answered the two questions "to prepare", as The Source requested. Looks like the instructions, as written, were followed.
You're out of context - he says wait until we are all here.

And I'm not angry, I'm just trying to maintain the integrity of Source's thread.

I guess it doesn't really matter all that much. It seemed to me like you were just disregarding his request, which seemed disrespectful to me.

But I guess if Source actually didn't want anyone to say anything, he wouldn't have posted those questions in the first place.

Didn't mean to offend anyone; I was probably out of line anyway. Sorry.

_EW_



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Old 06-01-2008, 02:40 PM   #19
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I always figured it was the simple answer: Revan's "Sith Empire" was not built by Sith, but by Revan using their teachings (how he obtained Sith knowledge is a mystery yet). The other Sith Lords spawned by his "Sith Empire" (Malak, Traya, Nihilus, Sion, Bandon, etc) were not true Sith in the sense that they did not belong to the Sith Order. Instead they were an offshoot, a copy, of the real thing, and Revan's purpose was not the annihilation of the Jedi, but to unify and strengthen the galaxy, though the same cannot be said for any of his subordinate Sith. In this case, the true Sith, would be those descended from the Sith of the Great Sith War, the Sith that fought beside Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma.

Palpatine, Vader, Bane, and Zannah however, are all of the true Sith Order that has existed for millennia since the Schism.
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Old 06-01-2008, 03:24 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin View Post
And Zerimar - gotta be kidding me. I just said you should wait for Source.
Well, I only read the original post and briefly skimmed the others. That, and that I didn't realize you were in a position to be able to tell others what to do. But did you even listed to anything I said, or was the only thing you got out of it the fact that I posted my ideas before The Source posted his (as others have done above my post and continue to do below it)?



EDIT: Just read your follow-up. Apology accepted. (This is why I really should start reading more posts in the thread.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by a silly noob View Post
YOURS VERY SLOW ! PLS NEW PROGRESSS PLS NEW UPDATES PLS DARK FORCES FİNAL VERSİON İ CAN WAİTİNG KOTF PART 1 RELEASED 5 YEAR AND İTS 1 MAN ( OSMAN GUNYAZ DEVELOPERS ) BUT YOURS VERY PEOPLE İ CANT WAİTİNG 5 YEARS

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Old 06-01-2008, 03:42 PM   #21
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Pfff...from the way I see it, he just ask time to write a summary of himself.
Quote:
The Source wrote:
My reasoning for the wait until Sunday: I want to write up a sumarry
Right. I think I did what was asked and answered the questions. Everyone here did.

Quote:
EnderWiggin wrote:
And I'm not angry, I'm just trying to maintain the integrity of Source's thread.
Integrity is good. But imagine what flaming on both sides could have done to the integrity of this thread. You prevented this with an explaination. But sometimes, acting up might do the exact opposite of what you want to achieve. Just saying....

Anyways, I apolagize for posting early. In my time zone, it was about 2 PM and I saw he asked a question to deliberate on.

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Old 06-01-2008, 06:10 PM   #22
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Here's the way I see it: unless the moderator of the forum says otherwise, we're aloud to post what ever the hell we want on the subject at hand.


Quote:
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YOURS VERY SLOW ! PLS NEW PROGRESSS PLS NEW UPDATES PLS DARK FORCES FİNAL VERSİON İ CAN WAİTİNG KOTF PART 1 RELEASED 5 YEAR AND İTS 1 MAN ( OSMAN GUNYAZ DEVELOPERS ) BUT YOURS VERY PEOPLE İ CANT WAİTİNG 5 YEARS
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Old 06-01-2008, 09:52 PM   #23
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Arrow My Translation of the Facts: Who or what are the 'true Sith'

Sorry for my late arrival. Since I got last minute news about an open house tomorrow, I had to do some serious cleaning. I didn't get a chance to go through what I wrote, so excuse the lack of page references and such. I did make note of where you can find this information.

My five sources include:
"Knights of the Old Republic"
"Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords"
"Knights of the Old Republic: Darth Bane"
"Knights of the Old Republic: Darth Bane II (Rule of Two)"
"Star wars Database"

------------------------------

Peace is a lie. There is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory my chains are broken.

Welcome to the ‘true Sith’ debate. Ever since we learned of the term ‘true Sith’, we have all speculated about who or what they are. Some people believe that the ‘true Sith’ refers to an actual alien species, and they are completely right to make such conclusion. According to the “Star Wars Databank”, when the original fallen Jedi arrived to Korriban, the ones from the first civil war, they were met by a species of dark force users. Over the centuries of living among them, the fallen Jedi learned all about the darkside of the force. However, the species on Korriban were only a primitive people, and they only had mastery over the darkside. If someone needs a comparison, they were similar to the Rakata in “KotOR I”. As the fallen Jedi learned and breed from them, they became what are known as the first Sith. In order to extend their teachings, they settled academies in hidden locations around the galaxy. Korriban, Dxun, Yavin, and other locations housed academies to train potential force-sensitives. Within the tombs of each location, the Sith Lords that rose up from the original fallen Jedi stored knowledge and insight on the darkside. Each Sith Lord left holocrons and scrolls to empower the next generation. If one location was compromised by intruders, mainly the Jedi, the Sith heritage and legacy will live on in other locations. When you play through Korriban in “KotOR I”, you learn about what happened to the first Siths’ descendants. Revan meets up with an ancient Sith Master in one of the tombs, and he explains some of the mistakes made by previous masters. As a result of being the birthplace of the Sith, Korriban became an academy for teaching potentials. Each force-sensitive learned from the ancient masters. According to both the “Knights of the Old Republic” and the “Knights of the Old Republic: Darth Bane”, potential Sith Lords and Apprentices were taught specific rules of the order. In order to become a full Sith, the potential will use the force, treachery, and cunning to eliminate the competition. Only the strongest will survive. Everyone else is killed, turned into a soldier, or used as fodder. The logic behind Korriban is to have the strongest become a Sith Lord. “There can only be one.” When the strongest eliminates his or her opposition, he or she will be able to challenge the residing Darth. “There is no power sharing.” Korriban’s history is all about the ‘true Sith’. Force-sensitive individuals are considered students.

Five years and a thousand years after “Knights of the Old Republic I”, two events occurred that were in contradiction to the groundwork laid out by the original Sith of Korriban. Even though there were other contradictory moments in Sith history, I will only reference what the majority already know. “Knights of the Old Republic II” revolved around a different kind of Sith. Kreia had mentioned, “These are Sith with special teachings. They crave to eliminate all Jedi. They seek to consume the force.” (Loosely quoted) Each Assassin, Marauder, and Sith Lord was taught at Malacore V. Instead of learning from the ancient Dark Lords on Korriban, Dxun, and other locations, they twisted the Sith perspective into something entirely new. Sith students of Malacore used the darkside in a religious manner. Instead of seeking insight on the darkside, they are attracted to it like a beacon. Rituals were used to harness the darkside. According to the “Knights of the Old republic II”, there are several Sith Lords that share power. When it comes to the ‘true Sith’, there is only one Sith Lord and he or she does not share power. Darth Bane and Revan both understood the importance of the ‘Rule of Two’. We will get to that later. When it comes to the main three Sithish characters, they each focused around controlling the Force. They didn’t focus on using it for world domination. One sought to consume everything that empowers the force. Sion wanted to become a Sith Teacher of sorts, but he also wanted to kill everything Kreia had touched. Kriea is a fallen Sith and Jedi. As a result of being exiled by both groups, she wanted to use the Exile to eliminate the Force. Unlike the original and ‘true Sith’ of Korriban, the three Sith Lords of “Knights of the Old Republic II” didn’t follow the ancestors. Each sought a means to eliminate the Jedi, consume the Force, or to end the force. Force Zombies anyone? As we fast forward a thousand years, the ‘Brotherhood of Darkness’ made similar mistakes. Even though they rebuilt and moved back to Korriban, they still ignored the ancient teachings of the original ‘true’ Sith masters. Instead of consolidating the force, they ignored the ‘Rule of Two’ and weakened the darkside. As a result of the darkside being shared amongst several Sith Lords and Apprentices, the power emanating from each individual was similar to a car battery. Each Sith during the time of Bane was told to ignore the ancient teachings. Sith attempted to create a vast army, which consisted of both weak and strong force users. They established an order similar to the Jedi Order. Instead of allowing the strong to kill of the weak, the Sith Lords prohibited the aggressive nature of being Sith. Another break from tradition was preventing anyone from using the prefix Darth. Since there can only be one Darth, and there were several masters, they prohibited the use of the prefix all together.

When it all comes down to the ideology behind ‘true Sith’, you have to look at their extensive history. “Knights of the Old Republic II”, “Knights of the Old Republic: Darth Bane”, and “The Star Wars Database” use the term ‘true Sith’ in reference to the original Sith of Korriban. Yes, there was some interspecies breeding with the primitive people of Korriban, but the term was used to point at a society of multiple species that meet the following criteria:
  1. They follow the ‘Rule of Two”.
  2. They learn from the ancient Sith Lords on Korriban, Dxun, and Yavin.
  3. They hide in the shadows and strike through cunning, deceit, and patience.
  4. They seek domination over the whole galaxy, and they are willing to kill everyone in the process.
  5. They quietly take up positions in militaries and political systems.
  6. They have others do the dirty work.
  7. They do not share power amongst their members.
  8. They seek absolute power through the use of weaponry and the Force.
  9. They feed on anger and fear.
  10. They do not consume the Force; they only seek the means to control the Force.
  11. They do not seek to destroy the Force; they only seek ways to manipulate and use it to obtain power.

“Knights of the Old Republic I”: Darth Malek, Darth Bandon, and Darth Revan are ‘true Sith’. According to game canon, Revan was not an actual Sith. An argument could be made in the contradiction.
“Knights of the Old Republic II”: Atris and Exile were the only ‘true Sith’.
“Knights of the Old Republic: Darth Bane Series”: Darth Bane and Zannah are the ‘true Sith’.
“Star Wars Movies”: Darth Insidious, Darth Maul, Darth Vader, Darth Plagous, and Count Dooku were ‘true Sith’.

Anyone who learned and exercised the teachings of the old masters are called 'true' Sith. Anyone else is just an amatuer. When it comes to Sion, Nihilus, and their army of Sith Lords, Assassins, and Apprentices, they were taught on Malacore V. As a result of twisting the traditions of the Korriban masters, they are not considered Sith in any means. Kreia was originally taught on Korriban, but she became a gray Jedi at the end. At the end of the game, Atris can be considered the next Sith Lord. However, I do not know if canon supports her survival. Since canon states that Exile is a female Sith, I would think that she killed Atris off. Why? You cannot have two Sith Lords.



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Old 06-01-2008, 10:03 PM   #24
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The Rule of Two is a "Modern Sith" invention. It is irrelevant to whatever Kreia was talking about. Revan can't be a True Sith because Revan's Sith Empire was the very thing that Kreia contrasted the "True Sith" to. It sounds like you are theorizing that the Kotor II "True Sith" are the same as the Post Ruusan Sith Order, which wouldn't make any sense in my eyes. How can there be a shadowy Empire of only 2 Sith? The Sith Order has gone through many reformations (mostly because it was destroyed over and over) and many bore little resemblance to each other, but it doesn't really mean they are any less "right", because they were the only Sith left.
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Old 06-01-2008, 10:10 PM   #25
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Eh...not buying any of it. Malachor was no different than Korriban or Dxun; it was a wound in the Force, but a greater one--that's all. And Malachor was a True Sith world, just as Korriban was at some point. In fact, those are the only two we know of. The teachings of Malachor were of the True Sith; this is stated in the game more than once.

As for consuming the Force...no, that was unique to Nihilus. According to statements made by Mr Avellone, the ancient Sith new how to feed off of other Force sensitives, but also knew that this power came with a price: the loss of identity, as is the case with Nihilus. Same with Sion, only instead of feeding off of the Force, he fed off of pain. Atris too gave up her identity in hopes of understanding the Force when she fell. They are not "true" Sith because they do not control the Force; the Force controls them.

Kreia, on the other hand, used the Force to do her bidding. She knew that the will of the Force could control her, and so she set about to kill the Force in order to end that control. That makes her a "true" Sith.

But either way, none of those are True Sith. The True Sith are a completely separate organization that we've never seen before; Mr Avellone and company have made this clear more than once. The Sith of Korriban--Ajunta Pall, Marka Ragnos, Tulak Hord, and the rest--were not True Sith.


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Old 06-01-2008, 10:12 PM   #26
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The Rule of Two is a "Modern Sith" invention. It is irrelevant to whatever Kreia was talking about. Revan can't be a True Sith because Revan's Sith Empire was the very thing that Kreia contrasted the "True Sith" to. It sounds like you are theorizing that the Kotor II "True Sith" are the same as the Post Ruusan Sith Order, which wouldn't make any sense in my eyes.
Actually, 'The Rule of Two' extends to the beginning. According to Bane's study from Revan and older Sith Masters, he discovered why 'The Rule of Two' was so important.


http://www.starwars.com/databank/org...thesith/?id=eu

EDIT:: I just read that Darth Bane restructured the order, so it could survive well into the future. However, Bane learned of this advantage from interacting with Sith holocrons. The 'true Sith' of Korriban knew about the advantage of having limited numbers; thus, my logic behind the criteria still holds some weight.



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Old 06-01-2008, 10:35 PM   #27
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Your link doesn't have anything to say supporting you.... When in history was the rule of two actually used before Bane?


"Everything I tell you is a lie. Every question I ask you is a trick. You will find no truth in me."
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Old 06-01-2008, 10:36 PM   #28
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As for consuming the Force...no, that was unique to Nihilus. According to statements made by Mr Avellone, the ancient Sith new how to feed off of other Force sensitives, but also knew that this power came with a price: the loss of identity, as is the case with Nihilus.
I thought the Exile could do the same thing, only because she cut herself off for so long, never ended up turning into another Darth Nihilus (and until refuted, I buy into the whole Nihilus-is-creation-of-the-Exile theory)

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Kreia, on the other hand, used the Force to do her bidding. She knew that the will of the Force could control her, and so she set about to kill the Force in order to end that control. That makes her a "true" Sith.
I was under the notion that she was neither. She reclaimed her title of Darth Traya, yes, but I still am under the impression that she is neither Sith nor Jedi.
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Old 06-01-2008, 10:37 PM   #29
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Your link doesn't have anything to say supporting you.... When in history was the rule of two actually used before Bane?
I edited the post above you. If you read "Knights of the Old Republic Darth Bane I", you will see where I got the information.

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I was under the notion that she was neither. She reclaimed her title of Darth Traya, yes, but I still am under the impression that she is neither Sith nor Jedi.
You are correct. She is not a Sith or a Jedi. Kreia was exiled from both orders.



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Old 06-01-2008, 10:41 PM   #30
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Your link doesn't have anything to say supporting you.... When in history was the rule of two actually used before Bane?
Bane established the Rule of Two through Revan's philosophies. It may have been around before Bane (as Revan only had one apprentice), but it was Bane who put the rule in place
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Old 06-01-2008, 10:42 PM   #31
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I thought the Exile could do the same thing, only because she cut herself off for so long, never ended up turning into another Darth Nihilus (and until refuted, I buy into the whole Nihilus-is-creation-of-the-Exile theory)
I only mean that Nihilus' followers didn't have that ability.

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I was under the notion that she was neither. She reclaimed her title of Darth Traya, yes, but I still am under the impression that she is neither Sith nor Jedi.
Her actions and motivations may not seem to be Jedi or Sith, but her beliefs are Sith. And as we know, the Sith is a belief. She's certainly more Sith than Nihilus, Atris, or Sion, who let the Force take away their identity.


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Old 06-01-2008, 10:47 PM   #32
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Her actions and motivations may not seem to be Jedi or Sith, but her beliefs are Sith.
I'm not so sure. I agree more with The Source on this one: Kreia was simply an exile. She took the title of Darth Traya because "there must always be a Darth Traya." Kreia wanted to be free of the Force's will, and while Sith may feel the same way, I don't think that alone can really make her a Sith.


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Old 06-01-2008, 10:50 PM   #33
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Bane established the Rule of Two through Revan's philosophies. It may have been around before Bane (as Revan only had one apprentice), but it was Bane who put the rule in place
Unfortunately, I do not know the whole Sith legacy. Did the older Sith Lords who are burried on Korriban, Dxun, and Yavin have one apprentice? I do not think you or I can actually answer this question. I can only speculate that they did, and they understood this logic of limiting their numbers. Darth Bane may have reintroduced the concept.

Revan most likely learned it from the past, and then gave his insight to Bane. Thus, the 'Rule of Two' does have its origins in the past. (If anyone is interested in our reference: "Knights of the Old republic: Darth Bane I"; Chapt. 23; pgs 282-284.)



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Old 06-01-2008, 10:58 PM   #34
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Her actions and motivations may not seem to be Jedi or Sith, but her beliefs are Sith.
On the surface, her Darwinian 'survival of the fittest' beliefs do seem rather Sith-ish, but ultimately they aren't. While most Sith equate strength with seizing every possible advantage and becoming as powerful as possible, Kreia saw it as being strong without relying on an external source of power (ie the Force).

I wouldn't call her a Grey Jedi, or even a Force-nihilist. Kreia really is just Kreia - it wouldn't have been Avellone's style to make her yet another Sith.


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Old 06-01-2008, 11:05 PM   #35
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Unfortunately, I do not know the whole Sith legacy. Did the older Sith Lords who are burried on Korriban, Dxun, and Yavin have one apprentice?
Er...no, they didn't. In fact, Dxun and Yavin weren't Sith wolds until after the Sith Empire fell.

The Sith Empire of Korriban was more like Revan's, with one Dark Lord of the Sith, and many other under him. No master or apprentice, though. All the Sith except for Naga Sadow were wiped out, and so he retreated to Yavin. After he died, the fallen Jedi Freedon Nadd discovered Sadow's spirit on Yavin IV, and Sadow taught him everything about the Sith. This was the first master/apprentice scenario, but it still wasn't a Rule of Two situation, since Sadow was long dead.

Freedon Nadd eventually conquered Onderon and died there as a king. Nadd's spirit continued to live on, corrupting the Keto cousins, Exar Kun, and Ulic Qel-Droma, until Kun destroyed Nadd's spirit. Nadd managed to warn Satal Keto about Kun, sparking a war between Kun and Qel-Droma. But when the two finally met, the spirit of Marka Ragnos intervened, declaring Kun Dark Lord of the Sith, with Qel-Droma as his apprentice, officially establishing what would be the Rule of Two.

Revan eventually discovered Korriban and Malachor, basing his empire off of both True Sith teachings as well as those of the Sith Empire on Korriban. Revan's empire was similar to Kun's with one Dark Lord, one apprentice under the Dark Lord, and dozens of other Dark Jedi.

Bane eventually found Korriban, and learned from the failures of Sith before him, eventually establishing the Rule of Two.

EDIT:

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On the surface, her Darwinian 'survival of the fittest' beliefs do seem rather Sith-ish, but ultimately they aren't. While most Sith equate strength with seizing every possible advantage and becoming as powerful as possible, Kreia saw it as being strong without relying on an external source of power (ie the Force).

I wouldn't call her a Grey Jedi, or even a Force-nihilist. Kreia really is just Kreia - it wouldn't have been Avellone's style to make her yet another Sith.
Heh. Good point. Eh...maybe she's not a Sith. I don't know. But Sion, Nihilus, and Atris certainly aren't.


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Old 06-01-2008, 11:15 PM   #36
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Heh. Good point. Eh...maybe she's not a Sith. I don't know... Atris certainly aren't.
Atris is a Sith. If anyone of them would be considered a 'true Sith', Atris fits the characteristics. She was learning from the Sith Holocrons, which were burried by the ancient Sith Lords. She also let her emotions drive anger and fear. Jedi learn to control their emotions, and Atris didn't have any type of control. She was using cunning, deciet, and manipulation. She also had an a possible apprentice in the Handmaiden. 'The Rule' of two strikes again. According to Kreia and Atris's conversation, Atris was taking the mantle of Darth Trayia (sp?). Out of all the Sith that were in the game, Atris was a 'true Sith' by every way and means. All she needed to do was confess it, and Kreia helped her to realize this.



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Old 06-01-2008, 11:19 PM   #37
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Atris is a Sith. If anyone of them would be considered a 'true Sith', Atris fits the characteristics. She was learning from the Sith Holocrons, which were burried by the ancient Sith Lords. She was using cunning, deciet, and manipulation.
She wasn't any of those. Her plan was even worse than Vrook, Kavar, and Ell's; she claimed that if the Sith fought a Jedi, they would be defeated. She tried to draw the Sith out at Katarr, which led to the destruction of the Jedi Order. Good job, Atris. When she tried it again ( ), she still failed; Kreia was the true manipulator who led the Sith to Telos.

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According to Kreia and Atris's conversation, Atris was taking the mantle of Darth Trayia (sp?).
Go play the game again, and talk to Atris after you defeat her. Even she'll admit that Kreia had deceived her.


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Old 06-01-2008, 11:25 PM   #38
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She wasn't any of those. Her plan was even worse than Vrook, Kavar, and Ell's; she claimed that if the Sith fought a Jedi, they would be defeated. She tried to draw the Sith out at Katarr, which led to the destruction of the Jedi Order. Good job, Atris. When she tried it again ( ), she still failed; Kreia was the true manipulator who led the Sith to Telos.
Actually, the conversation between Atris and Kreia says most of the story. Kreia had her confess about being a Sith long before Kreia came around. Atris admits that she was no longer 'Atris', and the Sith holocrons have given her insight. Kriea may have been a manipulator, but it was Atris's experiences and exposure to the Sith holocrons that turned her to the darkside. Atris's emotions for the Exile were evidant of the fall, and those emotions were around during the Exile's day of exile. The Sith holocrons just helped bring it to the surface. All Kreia had to do was put things into motion.



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Old 06-01-2008, 11:27 PM   #39
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Exactly. Atris was turned to the dark side; she didn't fall on her own accord like Revan or Kreia. The dark side consumed her and destroyed her identity. Atris isn't a "true" Sith; Kreia just fooled her into thinking she was.


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Old 06-01-2008, 11:28 PM   #40
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Eh...maybe she's not a Sith. I don't know.
What's there that supports she is, then?

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Sion, Nihilus, and Atris certainly aren't.
On the contrary, Sion was in every sense of the word. A bloodthirsty brute so dependent on his perceived source of power, and so obsessed with being strong that he's been rendered utterly helpless and weak for it.

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She also had an a possible apprentice in the Handmaiden. 'The Rule' of two strikes again.
She also expressed an explicit desire to start a new order of Jedi/Sith, while nothing in the game indicates she intended such for the Handmaiden.


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