Debate:: The True Sith (On Sunday!)

[The Source]

Originally Posted by Emperor Devon

She also expressed an explicit desire to start a new order of Jedi/Sith, while nothing in the game indicates she intended such for the Handmaiden.

Thats why I said 'possible'. Hehehe...

[Non-false Jedi]

Darth Bane formally established the Rule of Two, basing it loosingly on practices that Exar Kun and Revan had for the imediate subordinates. But neither Exar Kun nor Darth Revan REALLY followed the rule of two. They had armies of Sith at their command.

[Emperor Devon]

Originally Posted by The Source

Thats why I said 'possible'. Hehehe...

It's possible if you don't care to gather any evidence to support the possibilities you've thought up.

Btw, Revan was a cross-dresser. It's possible, nothing says otherwise.

[The Source]

Originally Posted by Non-false Jedi

Darth Bane formally established the Rule of Two, basing it loosingly on practices that Exar Kun and Revan had for the imediate subordinates. But neither Exar Kun nor Darth Revan REALLY followed the rule of two. They had armies of Sith at their command.

I will have to do more research on the 'Rule of Two'. I only know Exar Kun and Revan's story from the game. I know that there is more written about Yavin in Keven Anderson's triology. I will have to read more about the Sith past.

Originally Posted by Emperor Devon

It's possible if you don't care to gather any evidence to support the possibilities you've thought up.

Btw, Revan was a cross-dresser. It's possible, nothing says otherwise.

Funny. Lol...
If I remember correctly, the Jedi can almost sense each other. If Atris had surounded herself with non-force users, she would have most likely sensed what the Handmaiden was about. Plus, the Sith usually make their apprentices suffer. Since the Handmaiden had another mother, Atris would have known who her mother was. Making the Handmaiden suffer from exposing her differences can have its benifits.

For those of you who are just joining us, we are talking about:
http://lucasforums.com/showpost.php?...1&postcount=23

[JCarter426]

Originally Posted by The Source

If I remember correctly, the Jedi can almost sense each other. If Atris had surounded herself with non-force users, she would have most likely sensed what the Handmaiden was about.

Atris taught the Handmaidens to block out the Force. As Kreia comments, even if any of them were Force sensitive, no one would know it, because such techniques make them deaf to the Force.

[Emperor Devon]

Originally Posted by The Source

Funny. Lol...

Not just funny, an entirely possible assumption given your line of reasoning.

Originally Posted by The Source

If I remember correctly, the Jedi can almost sense each other. {snip}

The errors in that paragraph notwithstanding, don't see what that has to do with your original post. Knowledge of the Handmaiden's heritage =/= desire to have anything become of it.

[Kas'!m]

Originally Posted by Non-false Jedi

Darth Bane formally established the Rule of Two, basing it loosingly on practices that Exar Kun and Revan had for the imediate subordinates. But neither Exar Kun nor Darth Revan REALLY followed the rule of two. They had armies of Sith at their command.

Sith or Dark Jedi? Because I don't remember any of Kun's or Revan's followers being referred to as Sith Lords.

[The Source]

Originally Posted by Emperor Devon

Not just funny, an entirely possible assumption given your line of reasoning.

The errors in that paragraph notwithstanding, don't see what that has to do with your original post. Knowledge of the Handmaiden's heritage =/= desire to have anything become of it.

In order for what I have said to be an error, there should be information to prove otherwise. At the moment, we don't have the information to support or dissprove what I said. As for my comments about sensing another Jedi, (Return of the Jedi Reference: For those who are wondering), I think it is very insightful in making the connection. If Atris knew Handmaiden's mother and father was a force user, she would also have known that Handmaiden was a potential. Atris was trying to create another Sith/Jedi enclave. In order for it to be successful, Atris would need an apprentice or set of apprentices to make it work. Since she was under the influence of the Sith Holocrons, I am willing to make the assumption that Handmaiden was in waiting.

[Kas'!m]

Where in the game does it say or insinuate that Yusanis was Force sensitive?

[JCarter426]

Originally Posted by The Source

If Atris knew Handmaiden's mother and father was a force user, she would also have known that Handmaiden was a potential.

There's no evidence that Atris knew about Arren Kae. Quite the contrary, seeing as Brianna never tells anyone because she's ashamed of it.

Atris was trying to create another Sith/Jedi enclave. In order for it to be successful, Atris would need an apprentice or set of apprentices to make it work.

That's the whole point of Atris; she didn't have any intention of rebuilding the Jedi or the Sith. She taught her students to resist the Force, but not to use it. She had to be stopped because she was consolidating all Jedi/Sith knowledge in order to preserve it...which would only prevent others from learning the ways of either Jedi or Sith--like Mical, who found the records on Dantooine to be empty, because someone had gotten there before him.

[The Source]

Originally Posted by Kas'!m

Where in the game does it say or insinuate that Yusanis was Force sensitive?

Handmaiden's Robe (a_robe_x01.uti)
This robe once belonged to the Handmaiden's mother, Arren. It is the only thing of hers the Handmaiden possesses. This robe can be upgraded with some underlays.

http://www.starwarsknights.com/itempages/robe.php

[RyuuKage]

1. This is incorrect, the Rule of Two was the creation of Darth Bane under the tutelage of Darth Revan (via holocron), but Revan's was philosophy, not law, as it was quickly forgotten after the Jedi Civil War (the Sith Triumvirate for example, and 3000 years later, the Dark Brotherhood).
2. All three of these locations are outside the Unknown Regions, which is where Kreia says the true Sith are.
3. Not necessarily, it depends on what type of idealogy the Sith individual possesses.
4. True.
5. If it suits them to infiltrate said places, yes (Revan and Malak did not).
6. True.
7. True.
8. Artifacts and the Force, not necessarily weaponry. Palpatine's obsession with superweapons is a notable oddity, when most Sith Lords are obsessed with possessing great power of their own rather than through mechanical might.
9. Of course.
10. True again.
11. True. Kreia is yet another oddity in that in many ways she is both Sith and Jedi and yet neither.

“Knights of the Old Republic I”: None of the Sith Lords in KotOR were true Sith. Kreia suggests as much.
“Knights of the Old Republic II”: Atris was a fallen Jedi under the influence of Sith holocrons, and the Exile never fell.
“Knights of the Old Republic: Darth Bane Series”: Darth Bane and Zannah are true Sith theoretically, it really depends on what true Sith are in the first place.
“Star Wars Movies”: Same as above, hehe.

Kreia was originally a Jedi before falling to the Dark side and becoming a Sith. The Exile is not a dark sider in canon.

[Kas'!m]

Originally Posted by The Source

Handmaiden's Robe (a_robe_x01.uti)
This robe once belonged to the Handmaiden's mother, Arren. It is the only thing of hers the Handmaiden possesses. This robe can be upgraded with some underlays.

http://www.starwarsknights.com/itempages/robe.php

Um. . . Arren is brianna's mom. Yusanis is her dad. That robe has nothing to do with Yusanis. Thanks for making this thread by the way. It is giving me desperately needed inspiration to finish my second fic.

[Master Zionosis]

Originally Posted by Kas'!m

Um. . . Arren is brianna's mom. Yusanis is her dad. That robe has nothing to do with Yusanis. Thanks for making this thread by the way. It is giving me desperately needed inspiration to finish my second fic.

I was under the impression Yusanis wasn't a force user, he was an Echani fighter, possessing no force ability. Well, that was the impression I got from the game, no where in there (that I found) did it state Yusanis was force sensitive.

[TKA-001]

I thought the Exile could do the same thing, only because she cut herself off for so long, never ended up turning into another Darth Nihilus (and until refuted, I buy into the whole Nihilus-is-creation-of-the-Exile theory)

Such ridiculous fanon aside, the Exile didn't become like Nihilus simply because he/she didn't turn to the dark side. If he/she did, then he/she would.

As for consuming the Force...no, that was unique to Nihilus. According to statements made by Mr Avellone, the ancient Sith new how to feed off of other Force sensitives, but also knew that this power came with a price: the loss of identity, as is the case with Nihilus. Same with Sion, only instead of feeding off of the Force, he fed off of pain. Atris too gave up her identity in hopes of understanding the Force when she fell. They are not "true" Sith because they do not control the Force; the Force controls them.

She's certainly more Sith than Nihilus, Atris, or Sion, who let the Force take away their identity.

How exactly does the force "control" them anymore than Kreia? How does it "control" anyone at all? I see no evidence. The idea that the force controls events is purely speculatory.

Kreia, on the other hand, used the Force to do her bidding. She knew that the will of the Force could control her, and so she set about to kill the Force in order to end that control. That makes her a "true" Sith.

Wrong. That makes Kreia into Kreia. A Sith doesn't seek to destroy its only source of physical power.

But either way, none of those are True Sith. The True Sith are a completely separate organization that we've never seen before; Mr Avellone and company have made this clear more than once. The Sith of Korriban--Ajunta Pall, Marka Ragnos, Tulak Hord, and the rest--were not True Sith.

Maybe not, but Pall and the others certainly had dealings with the True Sith, whatever the nature of their Empire was. I'm rather surprised that nobody notices that the True Sith were referenced to even as far back as KOTOR 1.

Atris is a Sith. If anyone of them would be considered a 'true Sith', Atris fits the characteristics. She was learning from the Sith Holocrons, which were burried by the ancient Sith Lords. She also let her emotions drive anger and fear. Jedi learn to control their emotions, and Atris didn't have any type of control. She was using cunning, deciet, and manipulation. She also had an a possible apprentice in the Handmaiden. 'The Rule' of two strikes again. According to Kreia and Atris's conversation, Atris was taking the mantle of Darth Trayia (sp?). Out of all the Sith that were in the game, Atris was a 'true Sith' by every way and means. All she needed to do was confess it, and Kreia helped her to realize this.

Actually, the conversation between Atris and Kreia says most of the story. Kreia had her confess about being a Sith long before Kreia came around. Atris admits that she was no longer 'Atris', and the Sith holocrons have given her insight. Kriea may have been a manipulator, but it was Atris's experiences and exposure to the Sith holocrons that turned her to the darkside. Atris's emotions for the Exile were evidant of the fall, and those emotions were around during the Exile's day of exile. The Sith holocrons just helped bring it to the surface. All Kreia had to do was put things into motion.

Atris isn't a "true" Sith; Kreia just fooled her into thinking she was.

That's ridiculous. Atris didn't even think she was on the dark side, let alone an actual Sith of any sort. She thought she would be the Jedi (force-wielder, more accurately) that would go to Malachor and kill Traya, when in reality it was the Exile. In the end, the closest Atris was to the Sith was a Dark Jedi.

Btw, Revan was a cross-dresser. It's possible, nothing says otherwise.

Actually, it's true if you play the game as a female.

Sith or Dark Jedi? Because I don't remember any of Kun's or Revan's followers being referred to as Sith Lords.

I don't know about Kun's followers, but Revan/Malak's Sith use the word "Sith" pretty loosely. Even those student smacktards on Korriban are called Sith.

[DAWUSS]

Originally Posted by Non-false Jedi

Darth Bane formally established the Rule of Two, basing it loosingly on practices that Exar Kun and Revan had for the imediate subordinates. But neither Exar Kun nor Darth Revan REALLY followed the rule of two. They had armies of Sith at their command.

The Sith weren't in hiding then.


Also, Palpatine was part of the Rule of Two, yet he had numerous force-wielding apprentices. Heck, even Vader bent the Rule of Two, as one very hyped video game indicates

[Non-false Jedi]

Originally Posted by DAWUSS

The Sith weren't in hiding then.


Also, Palpatine was part of the Rule of Two, yet he had numerous force-wielding apprentices. Heck, even Vader bent the Rule of Two, as one very hyped video game indicates

Well yeah. Thats why they didn't feel the need for the Rule of Two. The reign of Lord Sidious, I now featured he and his apprentices bending the rules slightly but it still wasn't the same as having the forces that Kun and Revan did.

[TKA-001]

Palpatine didn't really have any apprentices other than Vader. While it is true that he does employ a dozen or so Dark Jedi, he doesn't really train them like he does with Vader.

On the subject of Vader's apprentice, he wanted the dude specifically to be his own Sith apprentice with which to overthrow Palpatine. That doesn't sound unusual to me.

[The Source]

I was in Borders Bookstore today, and I saw an interesting read. "SW: Essentials Chronology". I am going to buy it this weekend. After reading certain historical events around "KotOR II", I can see where people came up with some of the history. I didn't realize that I missed some key elements in Sith and Jedi history.

[adamqd]

^^
It's a good read, you wanna pick up the "SW: Jedi vs Sith: Essential guide to the Force" It's in the same line of books but more up to date and concentrates on the Force and the various groups who use it throughout the time line

[Rev7]

Originally Posted by The Source

Welcome to the ‘true Sith’ debate. Ever since we learned of the term ‘true Sith’, we have all speculated about who or what they are. Some people believe that the ‘true Sith’ refers to an actual alien species, and they are completely right to make such conclusion. According to the “Star Wars Databank”, when the original fallen Jedi arrived to Korriban, the ones from the first civil war, they were met by a species of dark force users. Over the centuries of living among them, the fallen Jedi learned all about the darkside of the force. However, the species on Korriban were only a primitive people, and they only had mastery over the darkside. If someone needs a comparison, they were similar to the Rakata in “KotOR I”. As the fallen Jedi learned and breed from them, they became what are known as the first Sith. In order to extend their teachings, they settled academies in hidden locations around the galaxy. Korriban, Dxun, Yavin, and other locations housed academies to train potential force-sensitives. Within the tombs of each location, the Sith Lords that rose up from the original fallen Jedi stored knowledge and insight on the darkside....

Kreia had mentioned, “These are Sith with special teachings. They crave to eliminate all Jedi. They seek to consume the force.” (Loosely quoted) Each Assassin, Marauder, and Sith Lord was taught at Malacore V. Instead of learning from the ancient Dark Lords on Korriban, Dxun, and other locations, they twisted the Sith perspective into something entirely new. Sith students of Malacore used the darkside in a religious manner. Instead of seeking insight on the darkside, they are attracted to it like a beacon. Rituals were used to harness the darkside. According to the “Knights of the Old republic II”, there are several Sith Lords that share power. When it comes to the ‘true Sith’, there is only one Sith Lord and he or she does not share power. Darth Bane and Revan both understood the importance of the ‘Rule of Two’.

When it comes to Sion, Nihilus, and their army of Sith Lords, Assassins, and Apprentices, they were taught on Malacore V. As a result of twisting the traditions of the Korriban masters, they are not considered Sith in any means. Kreia was originally taught on Korriban, but she became a gray Jedi at the end. At the end of the game, Atris can be considered the next Sith Lord. However, I do not know if canon supports her survival. Since canon states that Exile is a female Sith, I would think that she killed Atris off. Why? You cannot have two Sith Lords.

Okay, I am just a little bit confused. Are you saying that there are two types of 'true' Sith? Or a 'true' Sith, and a Sith species. To me, they sound the same.

Malachor V was just as much of a training ground as Korriban was. In fact, I believe that it was nearly the same as Korriban. Here are some quotes from Darth Sion on Korriban and Trayus Acadmey.

Originally Posted by Darth Sion on Korriban

"The call of Korriban is strong, but it is the call of the dead."

Originally Posted by Darth Sion on Trayus Academy

"It is ancient, a relic that survived the destruction of Malachor. It was always here, far before the Mandalorian Wars. It draws death and hate to it, channels it. Atrocities feed its power, and with its power, it creates hunger. Many Jedi have been consumed by it."

They sound very similar to me. They were both made by the 'true' Sith. Yes the Trayus Academy had holocrons that "contained material on basic Sith philosophy and how to evangelize with it."

Here is another quote from Sion:

Originally Posted by Darth Sion

"It has been here for thousands of years. It is a place where Sith teachings run strong… It is the threshold of the borders of an ancient empire. Kreia says that it was a place of reflection for the ancient Sith… a gateway to their lands. It drew Lord Revan… and it calls to her as well. She said that the teachings here will lead one to the Sith… the true Sith… and all their shadowed worlds. This place led Revan to the graveyards of Korriban… and beyond."

I find this quote very interesting.


I don't want to go off on rabbit trails, but I have a question. Did Darth Traya (Kreia) name the academy or, did someone else? Perhaps she knew that there would "always be a Darth Kreia" because she studied holocrons or something at the Trayus Acedemy and deemed herself Darth Traya, or was deemed by the original Darth Traya....? I might not have stated my question clearly, so forgive me.

Originally Posted by The Source

Atris is a Sith. If anyone of them would be considered a 'true Sith', Atris fits the characteristics. She was learning from the Sith Holocrons, which were burried by the ancient Sith Lords. She also let her emotions drive anger and fear. Jedi learn to control their emotions, and Atris didn't have any type of control. She was using cunning, deciet, and manipulation. She also had an a possible apprentice in the Handmaiden. 'The Rule' of two strikes again. According to Kreia and Atris's conversation, Atris was taking the mantle of Darth Trayia (sp?). Out of all the Sith that were in the game, Atris was a 'true Sith' by every way and means. All she needed to do was confess it, and Kreia helped her to realize this.

I think that this also might have to go along with my last question. MAYBE? Perhaps these were the characteristics/personality of the original Darth Traya. However, it was never stated that the Handmaiden was ever Atris's apprentice. I guess that you could say that the Handmaiden was kind of an the outcast of the bunch. None, of the Handmaidens were trained, it was against the rules, wasn't it?

NOTE-- I am not trying to riticule you at all The Source, because when I typed this up, it kinda sounded like I was. After all, this is a debate. Just thought that I should make that clear.

[TKA-001]

I don't want to go off on rabbit trails, but I have a question. Did Darth Traya (Kreia) name the academy or, did someone else? Perhaps she knew that there would "always be a Darth Kreia" because she studied holocrons or something at the Trayus Acedemy and deemed herself Darth Traya, or was deemed by the original Darth Traya....? I might not have stated my question clearly, so forgive me.

I don't think that Kreia named the Trayus Academy herself. Presumably it already had a name, and I'm not sure why she would need to give it a new name. I think she just named her Sith title after the place. I also don't like the idea of there being more than one person with the name "Darth Traya".

[DAWUSS]

I think the "There must always be a Darth Traya" line is frequently taken out of context (too literally).


In any case, under which Sith Schism led to the creation of the "True Sith", if they are members who practice a certain belief?

[TKA-001]

There's far too little information to possibly make a useful or accurate hypothesis. All that's known is that the True Sith (I doubt that they call themselves that) supposedly are located in the Unknown Regions and existed at least several millennia before the "old" Sith Empire (seen in the Great Hyperspace War).

[Rev7]

Originally Posted by TKA-001

I don't think that Kreia named the Trayus Academy herself. Presumably it already had a name, and I'm not sure why she would need to give it a new name. I think she just named her Sith title after the place. I also don't like the idea of there being more than one person with the name "Darth Traya".

I just looked on Wookiepedia, and nothing has come up on how Kreia got the name Darth Traya. Nothing what-so-ever. I do no for certain that she didn't name the academy. I must say that Kreia (Darth Traya) is certainly a mystery.

[Kas'!m]

Wookiepedia isn't all-knowing. . .

[Rev7]

Well what other source should I go off of?

[Miltiades]

EUCantina's interviews with Avellone and Karpyshyn may help in this interview. Here's what they have to say about the "true Sith":

Originally Posted by Avellone

Sure… it was always the intention that plot threads from K2 would reach into K3 if that ever became a possibility (and taking the battle to the true Sith Lords in the galaxy). I’d like to use the engine we’re developing for the Aliens game, however, since that has aspects that would definitely mesh with the Star Wars universe.

Originally Posted by Karpyshyn

The “true sith” can mean a lot of things. It can mean those who are true to the teachings of the dark side. Tracing back further, it can mean the original Sith race, before they were discovered by the Jedi. Or, if you want to go even further back, it can mean the Rakata mentioned in Kotor, who used the power of the dark side to create the Star Forge and found the Infinite Empire. So I think any journey, like Revan’s or Bane’s, that seeks out the “true sith” becomes a study in history, tracing back the followers of the dark side through each evolution until you get to the very beginning and encounter the original source of dark side power… and who’s to say that’s necessarily the Rakata? That’s the great thing about a universe like Star Wars - there’s always more to discover.

[Rev7]

^
Exactly. There are always questions, always things that don't make sense.

[Zerimar Nyliram]

A couple of things wrong, The Source:

1. You seem to have the terms "Sith Lord" and "Dark Lord" mixed up. There can be many Sith Lords but only one Dark Lord. Think of the former as the equivalent of a Jedi Master and the later as the equivalent of the Grand Master of the Jedi Order.

2. You're also suggesting that the Darth title only applies to the Dark Lord (or the Sith Lord as you incorrectly called him). This is not true. There can be more than one Sith with the Darth title at once, and there can be very many.

3. the Darth Bane books are not Knights of the Old Republic books and that title does not appear on their covers.


I don't really agree too much with your assessment as a whole. I think mine was more accurate.

[TKA-001]

It should be noted that the leaders of the Brotherhood of Darkness were all called "Dark Lords".

[Kas'!m]

Originally Posted by Rev7

Well what other source should I go off of?

I'm not saying don't use it. just don't think everything on it is true or think it has everything you want to know. Some of the stuff in articles on there is just speculation.

[Rev7]

Yup.

That is what those tags are for. I know that some of what is on wookiepedia isn't all true. I, and many others, think that it is a lot more accurate than DataBank.

[Non-false Jedi]

Originally Posted by TKA-001

There's far too little information to possibly make a useful or accurate hypothesis. All that's known is that the True Sith (I doubt that they call themselves that) supposedly are located in the Unknown Regions and existed at least several millennia before the "old" Sith Empire (seen in the Great Hyperspace War).

That was specualtion added to Wookiepedia as far as I know. Kriea only compared the "True Sith" to Revan's Sith Order's Empire in the ingame dialogue.

[deathdisco]

Originally Posted by TKA-001

It should be noted that the leaders of the Brotherhood of Darkness were all called "Dark Lords".

Just to clarify: under the "Brotherhood of Darkness" they were all supposed to be equals.
We all know how that ends up working out amongst those Sith types.

Anyway, whatever you may conclude the 'True' Sith to be, who ever takes the reins for the next installment(K3/EU) will surely end up disappointing you. Not to mention the retcon nightmares.

I know it's fun to debate and speculate but this is not a mystery to be solved. It's a story waiting to be written by someone with his or her own ideas/perceptions of what the 'True' Sith should be.

IMHO I think it's as simple as they come from the line of Ancient Sith(Kresh,Sado,Ragnos) being that the Sith in the game/EU learned their ways from Korriban, Malachor V, or seduced by Sith spirits. None were a part of the Sith Empire.

[RyuuKage]

Originally Posted by Non-false Jedi

That was specualtion added to Wookiepedia as far as I know. Kriea only compared the "True Sith" to Revan's Sith Order's Empire.

Exactly. Revan's "Sith Empire" was never connected to the Sith of the Hyperspace War or Exar Kun. All Revan had were their teachings, and instituted a new Sith order of his own. Neither Revan nor his followers are true Sith, here meaning whatever remnants there are of the original Sith order. They are copy of the real order, if you will. At least that's how i interpret it.

[JCarter426]

According to Wookieepedia, Obsidian have stated that Kresh, Sadow, Ragnos, et al were not True Sith. Then again, this is Wookieepedia we're talking about, and there's no source.

[deathdisco]

Originally Posted by JCarter426

According to Wookieepedia, Obsidian have stated that Kresh, Sadow, Ragnos, et al were not True Sith. Then again, this is Wookieepedia we're talking about, and there's no source.

Smells like retcon!

[JCarter426]

Eh...not really a retcon. Obsidian were the ones that made up the True Sith, so they could be whatever Obsidian wants them to be. Well, unless someone else makes K3 (or if it's revealed in the comics, etc).

[Q]

Maybe we should ask Avellone...

OH, DEVON!