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Old 06-03-2008, 06:06 AM   #81
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Quote:
Qliveur wrote:
OH, DEVON!
You know how angry ED can become when he's called to a thread unvoluntarily, right? I remember some newer members ran away crying after his posts in the 'Tokyio Hotel fanboy/girl' thread....

Anyways, it might be a good idea to ask about his opinion about Sith and what they were trying to do with the Triumvirate and 'True Sith' ideas.
There are many theories in this thread, let's see who comes the closest!

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Old 06-03-2008, 07:44 AM   #82
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Eh...not really a retcon. Obsidian were the ones that made up the True Sith, so they could be whatever Obsidian wants them to be. Well, unless someone else makes K3 (or if it's revealed in the comics, etc).
Kresh, Sado and Ragnos were 'True' Sith. They were created long before the KOTOR games. So yes that would be a retcon.

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Old 06-03-2008, 08:17 AM   #83
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Kresh, Sado and Ragnos were 'True' Sith. They were created long before the KOTOR games. So yes that would be a retcon.
They were Sith Lords, and members of the founding group, but I'm afraid the "True Sith" is an obscure creation of Obsidian, a "geographically different group" (sucky!)to the ancient Sith Lords we know and love, and up to now features in KotOR II only.

Remember, the "True Sith" have this name because Kreia says so, not because they necessarily are, and nobody else knows or has spoken of them before or since.


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Old 06-03-2008, 09:24 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by adamqd View Post
They were Sith Lords, and members of the founding group, but I'm afraid the "True Sith" is an obscure creation of Obsidian, a "geographically different group" (sucky!)to the ancient Sith Lords we know and love, and up to now features in KotOR II only.

Remember, the "True Sith" have this name because Kreia says so, not because they necessarily are, and nobody else knows or has spoken of them before or since.
Are we disagreeing?
This is still retcon. As in new Author(s) altering previously established work.

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Old 06-03-2008, 09:31 AM   #85
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They're not altering previous work. They're just making up their own stuff.


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Old 06-03-2008, 10:14 AM   #86
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Are we disagreeing?
This is still retcon. As in new Author(s) altering previously established work.
I agree with what you mean, but i disagree with what you say
True Sith is word or title never officially used before TSL, we still don't know what the writers intended the true Sith to be or mean

If True Sith does in fact mean the "original" or "proper" Sith, separate and Older than Ragnos' Order, then I hate it,
if it is just meant as an ideal or ramblings of an old women then so be it.

So really nothing is being retconned yet



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Old 06-03-2008, 10:48 AM   #87
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^^
It's a good read, you wanna pick up the "SW: Jedi vs Sith: Essential guide to the Force" It's in the same line of books but more up to date and concentrates on the Force and the various groups who use it throughout the time line
I didn't see that one in Borders, so I will have to look around. "SW Essentials: Chronology" covers the history of the Sith, Jedi, and Republic. I didn't realize that outside of Kreia, Nihlus, and Sion, there were other Sith fighting a civil war. When you play through "KotOR II", you never learn about the actual Sith Civil War that is taking place. I will keep my eyes out for that book. Thank man.

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There's far too little information to possibly make a useful or accurate hypothesis. All that's known is that the True Sith (I doubt that they call themselves that) supposedly are located in the Unknown Regions and existed at least several millennia before the "old" Sith Empire (seen in the Great Hyperspace War).
My only issue is that I keep reading about a Korriban origin. "Star Wars Databank", "Knights of the Old Republic: Darth Bane", and other sources keep screaming Korriban. This does not mean that they didn't relocate to avoid being attacked by the republic. I personally theorize that the 'true Sith' started on Korriban, scattered throughout the gallaxy, and then retreated to the Unknown Regions. When it comes to who or what they are, I don't think their existance is a complex issue.

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They were Sith Lords, and members of the founding group, but I'm afraid the "True Sith" is an obscure creation of Obsidian, a "geographically different group" (sucky!)to the ancient Sith Lords we know and love, and up to now features in KotOR II only.

Remember, the "True Sith" have this name because Kreia says so, not because they necessarily are, and nobody else knows or has spoken of them before or since.
Plus, what did she actually mean by 'true Sith'? She could have been comparing philosophies between two factions of Sith. One faction follows the teachings and meditations of the founders, and the others have a twisted religion based version of the darkside. You are right on another note: Obsidian could have been trying to create something new, so they thought up an entirely different origin for the Sith. If that was Obsidian's attempt, I would have to say, "What a hell of a mess." We have seen this before in the EU novels. Someone came up with the idea of turning the Sith into a species. If Obsidian is trying to make their mark on Star Wars, I can honestly say that I am not onboard for this 'true Sith' logic. After playing through Korriban in "KotOR I", I considered it to be the starting home of the Sith.

Damit! Games should be for fun. Grrr... Lol...



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Old 06-03-2008, 10:54 AM   #88
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I thought the Sith came from Ziost (surprised no one has mentioned it and that it's not in the game)
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Old 06-03-2008, 11:04 AM   #89
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I thought the Sith came from Ziost (surprised no one has mentioned it and that it's not in the game)
Sounds like an NJO concept? Hmmm... I was not aware of Ziost.



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Old 06-03-2008, 11:07 AM   #90
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The Sith species was from Korriban, but relocated to Ziost circa 28,000 BBY, after driving out the Rakatans. However, we don't know if the Sith species are the True Sith; in fact, everything we do know points to the contrary (Ragnos, Sadow, et al weren't True Sith, and Kreia calls the "true" Sith a belief, not a people). Yes, Korriban was once a True Sith world...but we have no clue when.

The Sith Empire of Korriban only began about three thousand years before K1; the Trayus Academy is much older than that. We already know that other species, like the Rakata, conquered Korriban long before its Sith Empire was born; it's possible someone else did as well. Or maybe the True Sith were the ones that stayed behind when the rest fled to Ziost, spread out across the galaxy, forming an empire, and over the millenia the empire fell apart, until the only ones left retreated into the Unkown Regions. Anything is possible at this point.


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Old 06-03-2008, 12:50 PM   #91
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It should be noted that the leaders of the Brotherhood of Darkness were all called "Dark Lords".
Well yeah, but that was when that hack Kaan messed it all up by making everyone a Dark Lord and therefore equal. Bane didn't agree with this and therefore remedied it, although he didn't take it back to the one-Dark Lord rule because in the Rule of Two both the master and the apprentice shared the title.

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"Knights of the Old Republic: Darth Bane"...
Once again, it's not a KOTOR book.


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Old 06-03-2008, 01:19 PM   #92
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no but its still a good source of info to the topic in hand.


Yesterday is history. Tomorrow, a mystery. Today is a gift...that is why it is called the present.

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Old 06-03-2008, 01:48 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by JCarter426 View Post
They're not altering previous work. They're just making up their own stuff.
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I agree with what you mean, but i disagree with what you say
True Sith is word or title never officially used before TSL, we still don't know what the writers intended the true Sith to be or mean

If True Sith does in fact mean the "original" or "proper" Sith, separate and Older than Ragnos' Order, then I hate it,
if it is just meant as an ideal or ramblings of an old women then so be it.

So really nothing is being retconned yet
I see Dark Horse's story of the Ancient Sith to be an introduction of Sith history to Star Wars fans. It's not unreasonable to think those writers thought of them as 'True' Sith. Introducing an unknown seperate faction seems a convenient way to fit someone else's story Arc. I would still consider this retcon(if that's how it plays out. Retcon being now you nullified Dark Horse's story since they were never 'True' Sith to begin with). IMHO of course, YMMV.

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Old 06-03-2008, 02:02 PM   #94
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Well yeah, but that was when that hack Kaan messed it all up by making everyone a Dark Lord and therefore equal. Bane didn't agree with this and therefore remedied it, although he didn't take it back to the one-Dark Lord rule because in the Rule of Two both the master and the apprentice shared the title.



Once again, it's not a KOTOR book.
Well, it was written by Drew Karpyshyn. Drew was a writter and designer for "Knights of the Old Republic". On the novel's cover, the "Darth Bane" title is within the "KotOR" style banner. If you go to the tittle page, the book says, "A Novel of the Old Republic". I think we can clearly call this a "KotOR" style novel. As a reference to what we are talking about, I think due to the fact that it was written by the writter of "KotOR" the game it qualifies.



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Old 06-03-2008, 02:10 PM   #95
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To clarify: The story is not Drew Karpyshyn's. It all ready existed in Jedi vs. Sith. He just expanded upon it for the novel.

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Old 06-03-2008, 02:18 PM   #96
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Just to clarify, TOTJ, GAOTS, FOTSE etc are my favorite comics ever, they are the True Sith to me, it's just they were never called that, and Avellone probably wasn't referring to them in TSL


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Old 06-03-2008, 02:34 PM   #97
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Well yeah, but that was when that hack Kaan messed it all up by making everyone a Dark Lord and therefore equal. Bane didn't agree with this and therefore remedied it, although he didn't take it back to the one-Dark Lord rule because in the Rule of Two both the master and the apprentice shared the title.

Once again, it's not a KOTOR book.
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To clarify: The story is not Drew Karpyshyn's. It all ready existed in Jedi vs. Sith. He just expanded upon it for the novel.
Darth Bane @ Wookiepedia
I guess there is some inconsistant issues with "Jedi vrs. Sith" and "Darth Bane: Path of Destruction". According to the article I found, George Lucas created Bane to begin with. Everyone else tried to piece his story together, but the latest incarnation is in conflict with previous versions.

Wookiepedia also places the story in "Old Republic Era". You cannot argue with all the sources pointing to the "Old Republic Era".



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Old 06-03-2008, 03:29 PM   #98
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Well, "Old Republic era" spans from 25,000 BBY to 1,000 BBY, so it has less to do with being associated with the Knights of the Old Republic series than you may think.

Also, one big thing I noticed about the Darth Bane books is that there is no mention whatsoever that Farfalla has a horse's bottom half and pointy ears. Very interesting. I guess Karpyshen thought that bit was stupid and decided to leave that part out, not mentioning his appearance. But I prefer the novels to the comics on every point except for Githany's death. I think it was done much better in Jedi vs. Sith where she comes out all zombie-looking and speaks to Bane one last time before falling apart.


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Old 06-03-2008, 03:58 PM   #99
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Well, "Old Republic era" spans from 25,000 BBY to 1,000 BBY, so it has less to do with being associated with the Knights of the Old Republic series than you may think.

Also, one big thing I noticed about the Darth Bane books is that there is no mention whatsoever that Farfalla has a horse's bottom half and pointy ears. Very interesting. I guess Karpyshen thought that bit was stupid and decided to leave that part out, not mentioning his appearance. But I prefer the novels to the comics on every point except for Githany's death. I think it was done much better in Jedi vs. Sith where she comes out all zombie-looking and speaks to Bane one last time before falling apart.
Oh! I get it! D'uh!

It is how we view art, social, and technological history. Lol... First we had 'contemporary', and then we moved thrugh a few eras until we hit 'post-modernization'. Lol...

At this moment in the United States technological and art history, we are in the post-modernization era of advancement. Lol... D'uh!

Lol... Sorry peoples. I had a brain fart. Lol...



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Old 06-03-2008, 04:52 PM   #100
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Also, one big thing I noticed about the Darth Bane books is that there is no mention whatsoever that Farfalla has a horse's bottom half and pointy ears. Very interesting.
Seems like a no-brainer move on their part. They obviously realized that it was as stupid as hell, just like this crap here.


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Old 06-03-2008, 04:59 PM   #101
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This crap here exactly!! I remember gettin them when they first came out... What were they thinking lol. The novelization is much better


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Old 06-03-2008, 05:45 PM   #102
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If anyone remembers "Shadows of the Empire", Vader lived in a castle at one point. Lol...



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Old 06-03-2008, 06:39 PM   #103
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Well no, Karpyshen did mention the ship in Rule of Two, but he described it very briefly as it was clear that he hated it.


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Old 06-04-2008, 02:08 AM   #104
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I see Dark Horse's story of the Ancient Sith to be an introduction of Sith history to Star Wars fans. It's not unreasonable to think those writers thought of them as 'True' Sith. Introducing an unknown seperate faction seems a convenient way to fit someone else's story Arc. I would still consider this retcon(if that's how it plays out. Retcon being now you nullified Dark Horse's story since they were never 'True' Sith to begin with). IMHO of course, YMMV.
Uh...then why wasn't Revan's Sith Empire a retcon?

It's not nullifying anything...it's not saying that the TOTJ Sith didn't exist; rather, that they're not the only Sith on the block...and we already knew they weren't, as evidenced by Kun and Ulic's Sith, Revan's Sith, etc.


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Old 06-04-2008, 02:18 AM   #105
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Well no, Karpyshen did mention the ship in Rule of Two, but he described it very briefly as it was clear that he hated it.
with good reason, lol

and if you listen to our beloved Keeper of the Holocron, Leland Chee, you'll find that newer content is deemed "more accurate" than older works (for obvious reasons, considering the prequel trilogy and revised licensing and continuity data; in the beginning they weren't very meticulous), and so in the event of contradiction (such as between the prequel and original trilogies), the newer material supercedes the old (a good example would be Timothy Zahn placing the Clone Wars some 50 years before the events of the Thrawn Trilogy, when in fact they ended only 28 years before, which we did not learn until much later).
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Old 06-04-2008, 02:27 AM   #106
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Uh...then why wasn't Revan's Sith Empire a retcon?

It's not nullifying anything...it's not saying that the TOTJ Sith didn't exist; rather, that they're not the only Sith on the block...and we already knew they weren't, as evidenced by Kun and Ulic's Sith, Revan's Sith, etc.
Were talking about 'True' Sith.

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IMHO I think it's as simple as they come from the line of Ancient Sith(Kresh,Sado,Ragnos) being that the Sith in the game/EU learned their ways from Korriban, Malachor V, or seduced by Sith spirits. None were a part of the Sith Empire.
And again.
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{snip}
IMHO of course, YMMV.

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Remember the SW:EU is a take what you want and leave what you don't situation... just like a salad bar in a resturant.


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Old 06-04-2008, 03:23 AM   #107
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Were talking about 'True' Sith.
So? The "True Sith" was just a name used by Kreia. It doesn't mean anything.


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Old 06-04-2008, 07:15 AM   #108
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So? The "True Sith" was just a name used by Kreia. It doesn't mean anything.
You did read the title of this thread?
That is what were speculating about.

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Old 06-04-2008, 08:47 AM   #109
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You've lost me. How does the existence of yet another separate group of Sith negate the existence of the Sith from Korriban?


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Old 06-04-2008, 08:37 PM   #110
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the "true Sith" is what Kreia referred to as a belief which ultimately dwells in the unknown regions. At least that's what I think she meant...


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Old 06-05-2008, 12:38 AM   #111
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You've lost me. How does the existence of yet another separate group of Sith negate the existence of the Sith from Korriban?
I didn't mean they wouldn't exist anymore. Sorry, I should of been clearer.
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I see Dark Horse's story of the Ancient Sith to be an introduction of Sith history to Star Wars fans. It's not unreasonable to think those writers thought of them as 'True' Sith. Introducing an unknown seperate faction seems a convenient way to fit someone else's story Arc. I would still consider this retcon(if that's how it plays out. Retcon being now you diminished the importance of Dark Horse's story since they were never 'True' Sith to begin with). IMHO of course, YMMV.
Fixed!
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{snip}
If True Sith does in fact mean the "original" or "proper" Sith, separate and Older than Ragnos' Order, then I hate it,
if it is just meant as an ideal or ramblings of an old women then so be it.
{snip}
Agreed!


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Old 06-05-2008, 03:56 AM   #112
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All right, I see. I still don't agree, but I see your point. I guess this one is from a certain point of view.


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Old 06-05-2008, 04:24 AM   #113
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In order for what I have said to be an error, there should be information to prove otherwise.
And in order to attach any validity to what you said, there should be information to affirm it in the first place.

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At the moment, we don't have the information to support or dissprove what I said.
Making it a negative and thus impossible to discuss (seriously).

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Maybe we should ask Avellone...

OH, DEVON!
I'm not wasting his time on something this trivial! >_>


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Old 06-05-2008, 04:57 AM   #114
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Semantic arguments aside, being that it is a major plot point of TSL and Avellone's brainchild, I don't think that it is trivial and I don't believe that he would either.

It probably doesn't matter as it will all be retconned away in a few years anyway.


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Old 06-05-2008, 05:15 AM   #115
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Semantic arguments aside, being that it is a major plot point of TSL and Avellone's brainchild, I don't think that it is trivial and I don't believe that he would either.
Sorry, thought you were referring to Source's speculations over which Sith was truer than who.

If I contacted him again, though, I honestly wouldn't expect much of an answer. If any at all, considering Obsidian saying anything about KotOR III is verboten. (And my doing so would probably come across as incessant. I'm sure he and Obsidian have gotten the question before.)

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It probably doesn't matter as it will all be retconned away in a few years anyway. :rolleyess:
With how impossible a KotOR III looks, I'd venture so.


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Old 06-05-2008, 05:23 AM   #116
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Unfortunately I think that he may have been gagged by an NDA for the express purpose of retconning it all away. Remember how he couldn't comment on whether or not Kreia was Arren Kae? It's rather sad, really.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
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Old 06-05-2008, 10:59 AM   #117
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I'm afraid the "True Sith" is an obscure creation of Obsidian
Not entirely accurate... they were mentioned in Tales of the Jedi and the D6 RPG sourcebook that was written from that. Both of these were long before KotOR was made, let alone TSL.


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Old 06-05-2008, 11:38 AM   #118
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Where were they mentioned in TOTJ? (and not Ragnos' order) and was this D6 thing released before the ancient Sith empire we know existed was created?


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Old 06-05-2008, 11:53 AM   #119
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Er...they weren't ever mentioned in TOTJ. They weren't mentioned at all before K2. The closest thing that comes to it is Canderous' remark that "the Sith came to [them] with an offer", the context of which is rather ambiguous.


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Old 06-05-2008, 06:55 PM   #120
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It seems to me that Canderous was referring to what remained of the Brotherhood of the Sith from Exar Kun's regime, since the time frame he was referring to was pre-Revan. This is a strong arguing point in my own theory that the line of Sith Lords was never broken, and that Revan and Malak met other Sith.


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