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Old 05-31-2008, 04:56 AM   #1
cynixic
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Love the Mod and some Suggestions

Hi, i love the mod alot, somewhat reminds me of KOTOR2, it gives you options to choose weapons/forcepowers/saberstyles. I play alot of basejka ffa and the find this mod really suitable to playing style, in basejka, i usually have to go around looking for my disruptor and rocket launcher, in ojp, all i need to do is add it as a skill. the items are pretty cool too, i love the way the seeker works. The styles are really fun too, tavion's lightsaber style is my favourite.
I usally put my skills into my favourite force powers and a single lightsaber style which im comfortable with and spend the rest on the e-11 gun, it allows me be flexible with the way i fight. I'm not really limited by the range of my lightsaber, I'm able to take care of myself in any lightsaber fight. I start by sabering a couple of people while taking pot shots to drain an incoming player's dp as he closes on me. However, i feel that force powers are not effective enough in a saber fight, but this is actually quite true for the movie lightsaber duels. Another style of play for me is to play as a jedi marksman, I take both offensive and defensive powers and add skills to bowcaster and blaster pistol, somewhat like the way i play my 2nd kotor2 character. The mix-and-match just makes it really fun.

The unique thing about JKA that sets it apart from the other FPS and the reason why its my favourite FPS, is the many different ways you can kill people. In a normal FPSs, you usually just gun them to death with several guns. In JKA, you can choke them to death, push them into the pit, snipe them, slice them into pieces, electrocute them, turn on mind trick and stalk them. And there are also those really cool combinations that you can do with force powers and weapons, Turn on darkrage and use secondary fire for e-11 or even melee, you can choke a person drop him back on the ground while charging a blaster pistol shot and hit him in the chest, trick someone into chasing you while your using speed to run into the next corridor and trick him when he turns at the corner with a nice yellow stance backslash. Force jump onto tower to hide and get ready to pounce on an unsuspecting victim with any weapon of your choice. chase down a flee opponent with a thermal detonator and get ready to fry him to death with force lightning. Force push those rockets back into their face. you may have to scroll for your lightsaber and weapon, but you could easily whip out any force power at anytime, to me, it makes it seem like an RPG game in a way, lightsabers and weapons are physical attacks while force powers are like magic attacks. Fights in basejka can range from short to long depending on the skill of both players, unlike games like quake 4 and half life, where someone dies in 2 seconds on encounter. Anyway, thats why i like this mod alot, you can relate it much better to basejka more than forcemod 3 and movie battles.

If you could make the game more roll friendly, i mean, you cant really roll in this game, coz the force jump makes you leap too high, and you land on the floor like 5 seconds later to roll, i used to like the jk2 roll, it gives an element of surprise and more evasive value than the jka roll. perhaps you could set an option to set it to a longer roll burst. it'll be awesome if you could have another button for rolling instead of crounching, its really silly to jump and roll

Perhaps in Options, you could add custom controls for using the items instead of scrolling for them like how i do for my force powers (c pull g push f grip t mindtrick z drain x darkrage v lightning b speed h heal tab absorb n protect)

I was wondering if you could tweak the mod to be more latency friendly, i play from singapore and the ojp test servers give me like about 250 ping, and i cant really duel properly. In basejka, i couldnt really notice the difference between 50 ping and 250 ping

I'd like to see more gametypes as well, its nice to see CTY, Jedimaster and Holocron back

Anyway, thanks for making such a cool mod
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Old 05-31-2008, 02:52 PM   #2
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Thanks for you nice comments. The mix and match thing is what we were going for, but we had to put level restrictions for having certain combinations in order to promote balance.

I agree with the roll idea, though there has to be some restrictions for balance sake. I was even recently pondering how we could do auto rolls from standing and make it balanced (Maybe raise mishap to simulate off balance and make the mishap force vulnerability for gunners a little more useful for a change).

The controls should have force power assignment options already.

About latency, I'm not sure what can be done about that. there are certain cvar settings that help with that, but I forget what they are. Max could probably help here. Also, since your in singapore, you may be the person poor UDM has been waiting for since he lives there too and rarely gets to fight anybody of close ping range. He's pretty busy these days, but keep an eye out for him.


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Old 05-31-2008, 04:45 PM   #3
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I do kind of miss the JK2 roll. At one point OJP did have the ground roll without needing to jump, like 0.0.9h or something, but I forgot why it stopped being that way.

Controls have Force power assignment but not items assignment Hocs

Items assignment might be something worth looking in to for v0.1.3.


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Old 05-31-2008, 09:00 PM   #4
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You can do Items assignment via console eg.
/bind x use_seeker
/bind x use_jetpack
but not from teh menu....yet.


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Old 05-31-2008, 09:53 PM   #5
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I think rolling without jump requires a certain velocity to be present. Try buffing g_speed and trying to roll and see if it works and at what speed it works.

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Old 06-01-2008, 09:20 AM   #6
Tanqexe
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Yep, I set g_speed to 280 and rolls work. It also "feels" much better for running speed.

I'm looking through the menu files to put in a dedicated subsection to the Controls menu where you can assign items. It can be done for the next version.


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Old 06-02-2008, 05:20 AM   #7
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Been playing the mod for a while now, dueling bots on the matrix dojo map

oh yea, you cant wallrun/wallflip kick with guns, im not sure if thats a bug or its just like that, coz you can roll with them.

I kinda dislike the strafing left and right at a reduced speed, it somewhat makes gun fights more predictable

As for the force restrictions to heavier weapons, why not add a skill to allow using force with weapons but at a great cost of skill points, i mean just adding the restriction remove force powers with heavy weapons seems to cut the potential of the mod.

You guys have any mappers? i think ojp could use some new maps to release with the mod, im in the middle of resurrecting my map which i started 3 years ago, i'd like ojp to use my map if you guys would like to, the theme is somewhat like jedi_home(II), but its made for fullweap/force FFA, if you guys wanna check it out, you can get me on my xfire: snapflux,

i wouldnt mind playing with UDM, except that i dont have his contact, if someone could give me his msn or xfire or email or something.
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Old 06-02-2008, 08:58 AM   #8
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Thanks so much for playing the map and giving suggestions, man.

Wall run/wall flip is a Level 3 Jump skill, so only a pure Jedi or hybrid Level 3 Jedi/Level 1 gunner can acquire it.

We're trying to get away from the Unreal Tournament-style run and gun gameplay, although it's still encouraged but done strategically. Left/right strafe and back walk are at reduced speed to better simulate how "real" people in a Stars Wars setting would fight (applying IRL human locomotion limitations to Star Wars...lulz).

Force restrictions are applied to heavy weapons because the heavy weapons are already quite powerful and would be overkill, especially against pure Jedi who are already relegated to more of a close combat role. Adding a skill to reinstate this can really hurt the balancing we've been attempting to prevent hybrid Jedi/gunners from being too overpowered.

Sample situation: riddle an incoming pure Jedi with clone rifle fire until he's real close, then instantly lightning 3/grip/force push him to the ground. You can probably consistently do this and 8-10 times out of 10 you'll win. It's not a very fair approach.

Now imagine in a full on fight, you're the pure Jedi, and you got 3 people with clone rifles. Force push them, they're on the ground, but they can still use Force push, so they Force Push and keep you from killing them. You're probably already low on Force and Dodge from deflecting all those shots, and the moment one of them gets up, they all unleash Lightning 3 on you. You get knocked down and can't even move. Then they just toy with you until you die, and you can't do a thing about it.

The aim with all the weapons and force balancing is to prevent situations where even in a full scale multiplayer fight, even when 3 people gang up on you you still have a chance and aren't completely helpless, at least not easily. My rule of thumb is: 3 vs 1, with balanced powers and weapons, the outnumbered guy still has a chance to fight back even if the other guys try to spam him. 4/5 vs 1, outnumbered guy has minimal chance of fighting back and he'll have to play very skillfully - he can be overwhelmed easily at this point.

It'd be great if you want to join us and help with mapping, and you're absolutely right about the lack of OJP maps. Kaldar and Carbon are working on one (see Mars Defense thread somewhere below this thread) and it's looking awesome so far. There are some things to consider for making an OJP map that would be different from most other maps out there, but that can be talked about later.

I'll PM you UDM's contact; what's your MSN?


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Old 06-02-2008, 10:33 AM   #9
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i meant that i could wallrun holding my lightsaber, but not holding my blaster pistol. well, in the real star wars universe, a jedi holding a blaster will definitely be a bigger threat than a normal soldier. I dont really like the idea of Jedi vs Merc, thats probably going to happen if you start nerfing the hybrids, so i'm just going to compare them as lightsaber users and weapon users. If you make the skill for force gunning expensive, the gunner is not going to have enough points to get force lightning lv 3, anyway the saberist will have more force powers he can use to beat the gunner, i'm not sure about saber throw. The e-11 doesn't seem to be a heavy weapon, yet i cant use force powers with it. 3 skilled people should be able to beat 1 skilled person, its just going to be the same thing if 3 saberist pick on 1 saberist. How does 1 gunner beat 3 saberist. In kotor 2, i'd kick any dark jedi's butt with my blasters and force powers as a jedi watchman. If hybrids get nerfed, everyone is going to want be a jedi/sith or a merc, nobody is going to mix and match to gain access to all the abilities, be a jack-of-all-trades. reminds me of how i played force mod 3, used to love playing the warden class, had all the force powers even though, but they couldnt be maxed, and i only got blue and yellow stance. In the end, nobody touched that class.

Oh btw, here are some screenies of my map


well, i tried to give it the ffa sort of flow, but i wanted it to appeal to the silly japlus players

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/xla182/9.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/xla182/2-1.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/xla182/1-1.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/xla182/14.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/xla182/16.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/xla182/a1-1.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/xla182/a2-1.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/xla182/a3-1.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/xla182/a4-1.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/xla182/a7.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/xla182/a5-1.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/xla182/a19.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/xla182/a20.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/xla182/a21.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/xla182/a22.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/xla182/a23.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/xla182/a24.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/xla182/a25.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/xla182/a26.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/xla182/a27.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/xla182/a28.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/xla182/a29.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/xla182/a30.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/xla182/a31.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/xla182/a32.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/xla182/a33.jpg

Last edited by cynixic; 06-02-2008 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 06-02-2008, 11:02 AM   #10
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Must play................. must play

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Old 06-04-2008, 06:34 AM   #11
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yer one of the things that turns me off about OJP recently, no small jump means you loose the ability to roll... sad face (well you can still roll but its hard as hell)


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Old 06-04-2008, 06:59 AM   #12
Maxstate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynixic View Post
i meant that i could wallrun holding my lightsaber, but not holding my blaster pistol. well, in the real star wars universe, a jedi holding a blaster will definitely be a bigger threat than a normal soldier.
You place the fault at the wrong thing. Wall-running with guns if you're a hybrid is something we could discuss and possibly add, but other than the "matrix" cool-factor, I don't really see the point. Even Jedi don't use wall-run.

Quote:
Originally Posted by x
I dont really like the idea of Jedi vs Merc, thats probably going to happen if you start nerfing the hybrids, so i'm just going to compare them as lightsaber users and weapon users.
Why don't you like it? Hybrids couldn't have possibly spent the same amount of time training both of their specialisations; they are jack of all trades but masters of none. That's like saying "well if boba fett had jedi training/was force sensitive he could be much cooler and a lot better jedi hunter" which is sadly not the case considering that even in star wars, practice makes perfect.

Every minute you spend at the shootin' range is a minute less spent at the Jedi temple.

The only reason why this is still even a point of discussion is because of the
whole Extended Universe bull****, where Star Wars' credibility and gunner/jedi balance takes a turn for the worst.

Quote:
Originally Posted by x
If you make the skill for force gunning expensive, the gunner is not going to have enough points to get force lightning lv 3, anyway the saberist will have more force powers he can use to beat the gunner, i'm not sure about saber throw.
I don't see the problem here. We already have a system that limits the skill that a gun user can develop in a certain Force Power based on what weapons they buy. It works a lot better than the idea you're talking about, since if we start changing points , people are going to complain. See Viper's thread complaining about 8 points for a lightsaber style.

Quote:
Originally Posted by x
The e-11 doesn't seem to be a heavy weapon, yet i cant use force powers with it.
???

Quote:
Originally Posted by x
3 skilled people should be able to beat 1 skilled person, its just going to be the same thing if 3 saberist pick on 1 saberist. How does 1 gunner beat 3 saberist.
Is there a question here? A statement? What?

Quote:
Originally Posted by x
In kotor 2, i'd kick any dark jedi's butt with my blasters and force powers as a jedi watchman. If hybrids get nerfed, everyone is going to want be a jedi/sith or a merc, nobody is going to mix and match to gain access to all the abilities, be a jack-of-all-trades.
Because Kotor2 is an accurate portrayal of the Star Wars universe and its physics right?? right guys???

And you claim that noone is going to want to mix from what standpoint? What's your argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by x
reminds me of how i played force mod 3, used to love playing the warden class, had all the force powers even though, but they couldnt be maxed, and i only got blue and yellow stance. In the end, nobody touched that class.
Again you leave a lot open for interpretation. Maybe people stopped playing the warden class for a different reason?

Please try to elaborate as much as you can.

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Old 06-04-2008, 07:25 AM   #13
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If you'd read what Max wrote, roll is tied in to velocity. The default g_speed setting is 210; when I bumped that cvar value to 280, it was possible to run and roll. But christ, even without changing g_speed you can still roll with Jump 1, and it's only 1 second of airborne time. It's not really that big of a deal, more like making mountains out of molehills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cynixic
i meant that i could wallrun holding my lightsaber, but not holding my blaster pistol. well, in the real star wars universe, a jedi holding a blaster will definitely be a bigger threat than a normal soldier. I dont really like the idea of Jedi vs Merc, thats probably going to happen if you start nerfing the hybrids, so i'm just going to compare them as lightsaber users and weapon users. If you make the skill for force gunning expensive, the gunner is not going to have enough points to get force lightning lv 3, anyway the saberist will have more force powers he can use to beat the gunner, i'm not sure about saber throw. The e-11 doesn't seem to be a heavy weapon, yet i cant use force powers with it. 3 skilled people should be able to beat 1 skilled person, its just going to be the same thing if 3 saberist pick on 1 saberist. How does 1 gunner beat 3 saberist. In kotor 2, i'd kick any dark jedi's butt with my blasters and force powers as a jedi watchman. If hybrids get nerfed, everyone is going to want be a jedi/sith or a merc, nobody is going to mix and match to gain access to all the abilities, be a jack-of-all-trades. reminds me of how i played force mod 3, used to love playing the warden class, had all the force powers even though, but they couldnt be maxed, and i only got blue and yellow stance. In the end, nobody touched that class.
To be honest, I seriously doubt being able to wall run while holding a gun will confer any real advantage. It's just showy, and you're more likely the victim of a well placed rocket (instant death), blaster barrage, or lightning.

Hybrids do have their advantages - they are good at both close and long range combat. If you're a good enough shot, you'll be going toe to toe with other long range gunners, and if you're going up a pure saber wielder, you just soften them up with mid to long range firepower, then finish them off with the saber or lightning burst when they get close. That's just one of many strategies.

You seem to want to confer upon the hybrids (which in reality is a broad spectrum between pure gunners and pure Jedi) a completely unfair advantage because that's how it was done in base. Well if that's the case then there would be no point to having pure gunners or pure Jedi. OJP's had to struggle with this for a long time, because if you open up level 3 abilities without restriction, then at high levels hybrids have too much of an advantage over the pure "classes."

You can use Force powers with the pistol. If Force powers were available while other more powerful guns are in use, it would become pretty darn unbalanced.

You misunderstand what my criteria were in terms of situations in mass FFA where you can see 3 v 1. It is not about the skill of the players involved in this outmatching situation that's the issue, it's that there has to be tools available for the outnumbered player to have a chance if he knows how to play his hands correctly. And frankly, I hardly call mass lightning spamming, mass dual pistol stun/knockdown, mass clone rifle blobbing, or mass bowcaster spamming skill. Any 3 idiots can do that and win. But that's not the point. The point is for the availability of counters to these kinds of situations such that in the hands of a skilled user, a 3 v 1 doesn't become a complete gangbang 10 times out of 10. And yes, it IS possible for 1 skilled gunner to take on 3 Jedi, if weapons and gadgets are balanced properly. It is also possible, if done right, for 1 saberist to last against 3 saberists. Those are considerations that have to be made, especially for a good experience in FFA, TFFA, and CTF gameplay.

Don't worry too much about hybrids dying out in OJP; they are more often than not the mainstay in FFA games. This isn't KOTOR2, this isn't base JA, this isn't JAplus, and this isn't Force Mod 3. This is OJP, and skills balance has allowed the hybrid to be very much a valid spectrum of classes that can go toe to toe with the pure classes. Fight Maxstate, Revolves, or any number of individuals online and you'll see.


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Old 06-04-2008, 11:46 PM   #14
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yup, but i sort of prefer the instant roll, i guess its just my preference, besides the leaping into the air thing before rolling is silly from my point of view. you've got a point there about the unbalanced thing. As for the force gunning skill, i believe its reasonable, you guys just need to decide how many skill points it takes up. I disagree that wall running/kickflipping is pretty useless. it gives a certain element of surprise when your cornered up against the wall, at least to me. Theres no fixed, balanced standard maximum skill points in a standard OJP game, so yup, i agree that it'll be imbalanced at high levels. And also if I'm not wrong, I believe I remembered some force wielding cultists using e-11s in SP. Another skill I'd like to see is one to restore the basejka strafing left and right speed, in my opinion, it really hinders manual dodging. As a saberist, if your low on Dodge Points, I think a skilled player could really use more help dodging bolts and swings rather than blocking them, same goes for a gunner vs another gunner
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Old 06-05-2008, 12:30 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynixic View Post
yup, but i sort of prefer the instant roll, i guess its just my preference, besides the leaping into the air thing before rolling is silly from my point of view. you've got a point there about the unbalanced thing. As for the force gunning skill, i believe its reasonable, you guys just need to decide how many skill points it takes up. I disagree that wall running/kickflipping is pretty useless. it gives a certain element of surprise when your cornered up against the wall, at least to me. Theres no fixed, balanced standard maximum skill points in a standard OJP game, so yup, i agree that it'll be imbalanced at high levels. And also if I'm not wrong, I believe I remembered some force wielding cultists using e-11s in SP. Another skill I'd like to see is one to restore the basejka strafing left and right speed, in my opinion, it really hinders manual dodging. As a saberist, if your low on Dodge Points, I think a skilled player could really use more help dodging bolts and swings rather than blocking them, same goes for a gunner vs another gunner
Roll isn't really that big of a deal. If anything an instant roll makes you more vulnerable to a successful shot because of the brief pause at the end of the roll. At least with a jump-initiated roll, there are many directions with which you can choose to roll, giving you some unpredictability.

Giving force powers to pistols is already very advantageous. Imagine lowering someone's DP so much with a more powerful gun to the point where they're in the red; when they're close enough you can just blast them with a simple lightning 1. They'll go flying to the ground - one good shot and they're dead. Maybe for E-11 one can make a case for enabling force use, but even then a cheaper option would probably be to just buy a sentry and maybe a thermal det.

Seriously, wall running/kick flipping means that you're going to be a big target for a well-placed area of effect attack. There's really no surprise to it, since there's really only one direction you'll be going. Better off to invest all those points wasted on Jump 3 just to get wall run in a jetpack instead, or even lightsaber/Shii-cho + saber defense 1.

We're not aiming to recreate Unreal Tournament style gunfighting here, I guess that's the jist of it. The more hardcore gunner players may feel differently about strafe, but personally I can last a decent while with strafing runs to avoid shots from DarthDie, even though I can't get a bead on him very well because I'm usually using the laptop touchpad - plus I'm not really as versed in using guns.

It's possible to consider allowing force use for E-11, since it's got 21 shots per clip and more of a general purpose weapon than anything else, we'll just have to see how that fares in an FFA/CTF situation. But enabling force for weapons beyond E-11 and pistols would probably break the delicate balance established between pures and hybrids.

As for situations when you're low on DP...well, on the saberist side, jump is cheaper to use than it was in previous versions; speed is also an alternative to get out of tight situations. Protect can help reduce damage from further attacks. Yeah, it's not a good idea to make it so that it's real easy to kill someone, but on the other hand, if it becomes too easy to recover from low DP, then it'll become too frustratingly hard to make kills. I do feel like manual reflect (in the saber styles that have the feature) isn't as useful as it was before, and for, say, Soresu, maybe a lowered deflection DP cost (not sure if this is the case for the current code) would help as well...I dunno, there's been a lot of back and forth on that for a while. But anyway, outside of deflecting/reflecting bolts, there's a large repertoire of skills for a saberist to counter a gunner.


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Old 06-05-2008, 07:32 AM   #16
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what a coincidence, im using a laptop with touchpad... i really should buy a mouse.


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Old 06-15-2008, 05:20 AM   #17
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Hey thanks for adding me to MSN. I look forward to playing sometime soon. I've been aching to get back to modelling for OJP too
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