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Old 06-20-2008, 03:28 AM   #1
Maxstate
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Thumbs up OJP V1.3 Force Suggestion Thread

FORCE POWERS!

We have all used them. Recently, Darthdie has considerably improved the physics for the telekinesis-based powers. Grip has become the wrecking-ball power and pull is now more dangerous to the user than to the pulled.

There is room to improve however! We still have unused powers like Drain, Heal, Energize and Force Fap. I've made awesome progress with the effects and could whip up pretty much anything that we'd need in a short period of time. My summer vacation starts tomorrow, and I'm going to have a lot of free days that I'm willing to spend completely on improving OJP, as a thank you to the community. I'm sure the other guys wouldn't say no to new features either.

The point of this thread is to brainstorm new Force Power ideas or adjustments to existing Force powers. I want the help of every single one of you. I want you to put your minds into a collective hive and thinktank your way to better Force powers and I want you to do it RIGHT HERE IN DIS THRED LOL.

Let's start it off, and watch the format I use to describe the powers, try to use it:
____________________
-Force sense-
Level 3

Should allow a jedi to dodge sniper shots for less money.

=Why?=
Because it seems natural and it was possible in the SP game.

=Why not?=
Too much work for a feature that might not be used.
_____________________
-Force Team Heal-
Level 1

Make a huge amount of glowy purplish-blue particles erupt around the player, using the player's FP to heal a part of his team's DP/HP in a radius around the player.

=Why?=
If we decide to make OJP more team-based in the future, and we make HP actually matter, this'll be a great addition.

=Why not?=
Cause it's a lame idea lol.
_____________________

Your turn!

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Old 06-20-2008, 04:01 AM   #2
ZerooftheFour
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Alright here are my stupid suggestions.

Team Heal
Well I like the Idea of Team Heal healing both DP and HP by Maxstate.
Radius increase per level.
However if its in FFA the abilty must be pointed at someone then the heal will try and reach its target if its in range.

Team Energize
I think it should recover FP and Lessen Mishap, so it’s a matching power to Team Heal.
Radius increase per level.
However if its in FFA the abilty must be pointed at someone then the heal will try and reach its target if its in range

Heal
Make it recover DP HP and maybe Mishap, at the cost of a lot of force so it can’t be spammed. ~50
Heal amount increase per level

Drain
Make it Drain enemy force and recover DP HP and maybe Mishap. Make start up cost high so it cant be spammed. ~20
Make it a 2:1 ratio, example, for ever 2 points drained = 1 point of DP/HP
I don’t think we should have it drain DP or HP directly because that’s lightning’s job.
Make it like a corresponding power to lightning so it has the same arcs and ranges depending on level


I haz creative suggestions.

Well not really, but my thoughts where to make is simple for Die, sense he is hard at work with the physics engine, yet still introduce “new” and exciting powers, without putting to much work on your shoulders and increasing the release time.

However I am looking to Max for creative efx to add a new feeling to the powers, the green glow of Team Heal, the blue glow of Team Energize, the red lasers of drain, and the purplish heal thing could be replaced with something more flashy. Also maybe you could do something with Protect/Rage mainly protect is it ugly as hell. Make something bling blingy. I know you can. : )

PS, Also Maxstate, I apologize if I am coming across as a douche to you sometimes, and in many ways I am. I will stop and do what I can for you and OJP. So let us just try and rekindle relationships, and work on creating a better mod together.
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Old 06-20-2008, 04:09 AM   #3
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_power

Could help some brainstorming.
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Old 06-20-2008, 04:40 AM   #4
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Bro I've had my own share of problems lately, and they'll be gone by tomorrow, so I totally agree. But back to Force powers.

I'm a big fan of the way Force Powers were handled in DF: MoTS, Force destruction anyone?

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Old 06-20-2008, 08:59 AM   #5
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if we can get destruction for Darkside and Blinding for Lightside that would be awesome


xfire me = Gambit32
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:09 AM   #6
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I think jumping and speed should have two specific branches. Say, speed also accounts for reaction, so say you have sense and sense both in 3, that'd automatically mean dodging sniper fire and such takes a lot less effort (reflexes, etc.)

By branches, I mean that speed should be handled like it is (remain like it is) but add a specific "dash" move. Something that makes you travel an X distance, VERY quickly, but has the side effect of leaving you a little open at the other end, or something like that.

Think of it like a quasi-teleport move, except for the fact it's not a teleport so objects in the way and etc would stop you (or knock you down!)

Jump is, well, a combination of levitation and actual force speed in some way. So, jumping can also have a JK-style mode where you just rocket upwards (and can hurt yourself if you don't use it right) and a mode where you have air control, etc.

So, my idea is, say, doubletap force for one (dash/super jumping) and otherwise it'd be the normal usage (hold for accel running or jumping with air control and acrobatics.)

Plus, it'd be really cool to be able to dash in the air too. But well, that's all I can think of right now that I'd love to see ingame. Well, force destruction (AKA: HADOKEN!) should be in there somewhere too, cuz it's just neat like that. But I can live without it. :x


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Old 06-20-2008, 10:54 AM   #7
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hmm i believe the force powers in OJP should be force powers which are canon, and have references, then from that we can stem as much balancing as is required (even though logically force powers could beat everything LOL)

Force powers should remain what they are, Tanqexe suggested many times that he does not want Dark Rage or Protection force powers to be in. I after playing with them the 10th time see the novelty wear off. I think been faithful to starwars is important as well as been realistic and balanced. Infinite number of ways to use the force.

Have a good combination of these 3 criteria means that we can have a good mod. I been a large fan, supporter and contributer to it want only whats best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZerooftheFour View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_power

Could help some brainstorming.
oddly it says this

'Jedi mind trick', Affect Mind or Persuasion is a universal force power, not a light side power. oh noes. Peronally i think Universal force powers are in fact Light side powers. Concentration, suppressing emotion. While dark side is embracing anger, perhaps even controlling anger to use its destructive ends whenever its needed.


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Old 06-20-2008, 03:20 PM   #8
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would love to see some old school dark forces powers like destruction, and force push where we could throw objects at people.

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Old 06-20-2008, 03:26 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unbeholden View Post
hmm i believe the force powers in OJP should be force powers which are canon, and have references, then from that we can stem as much balancing as is required (even though logically force powers could beat everything LOL)
Well we certainly don't want to pull a Force Spawn-The-Rabbit-And-Fling-It-At-People-Like-It's-A-Javelin out of our collective asses, that goes without saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unbeholden
Force powers should remain what they are, Tanqexe suggested many times that he does not want Dark Rage or Protection force powers to be in. I after playing with them the 10th time see the novelty wear off. I think been faithful to starwars is important as well as been realistic and balanced. Infinite number of ways to use the force.
Er what? I never, ever said that. Max said that. I'm for keeping Rage and Protect in, they just need to be tweaked and expanded on instead of being their current one-hit solutions. Especially since some people love abusing Rage to gang up on people.

Quote:
'Jedi mind trick', Affect Mind or Persuasion is a universal force power, not a light side power. oh noes. Peronally i think Universal force powers are in fact Light side powers. Concentration, suppressing emotion. While dark side is embracing anger, perhaps even controlling anger to use its destructive ends whenever its needed.
Dark Side powers require concentration too, it's not like someone enters emo mode and whoever is more emo is more powerful in the Dark Side.

Now for gameplay purposes, we will have to assign Light and Dark side powers a certain way. I guess in general, there needs to be a cost to having level 3 of any of these Light/Dark oriented powers, just as there are currently limits on guns vs Force. Or, alternatively (and more complicated), it may be possible to access both Light/Dark powers equally. However, certain powers cost extra FP to use depending on the amount of skill points invested in either Light or Dark powers overall - cheaper to use if completely invested in one side, more costly to access powers on the other side, and average cost if equal.

Absorb needs to be moved into the Neutral column, though. Plus I'm a proponent of chargeable TK powers.


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Old 06-20-2008, 04:15 PM   #10
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Er what? I never, ever said that. Max said that. I'm for keeping Rage and Protect in, they just need to be tweaked and expanded on instead of being their current one-hit solutions. Especially since some people love abusing Rage to gang up on people.
I would be more concerned about grip abuse on gunners. A skilled player can still beat rage, you can always speed or run from it. Plus Rage takes 50 force, so if they use it more then once they are pretty much screwed. And you have a speed debuff for a long time. Not to mention that Saber Locks break rage. I think thats a bug...

However pull and grip is impossible for a gunner to run and get distance, I was pulled 7 times in air and a Jedi still had enough force to grip me. And I had a full tank of fuel. I think Grip needs to be looked into. To me it feels really overpowered when I play gunner.
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:29 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Tanqexe View Post
Well we certainly don't want to pull a Force Spawn-The-Rabbit-And-Fling-It-At-People-Like-It's-A-Javelin out of our collective asses, that goes without saying.
No shhit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanqexe View Post
Dark Side powers require concentration too, it's not like someone enters emo mode and whoever is more emo is more powerful in the Dark Side.
I never said it didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanqexe View Post
Now for gameplay purposes, we will have to assign Light and Dark side powers a certain way. I guess in general, there needs to be a cost to having level 3 of any of these Light/Dark oriented powers, just as there are currently limits on guns vs Force. Or, alternatively (and more complicated), it may be possible to access both Light/Dark powers equally. However, certain powers cost extra FP to use depending on the amount of skill points invested in either Light or Dark powers overall - cheaper to use if completely invested in one side, more costly to access powers on the other side, and average cost if equal.

Absorb needs to be moved into the Neutral column, though. Plus I'm a proponent of chargeable TK powers.
Indeed, limitations on everything, limitation is what makes players happy (sarcasm)


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Old 06-20-2008, 10:37 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZerooftheFour

I would be more concerned about grip abuse on gunners. A skilled player can still beat rage, you can always speed or run from it. Plus Rage takes 50 force, so if they use it more then once they are pretty much screwed. And you have a speed debuff for a long time. Not to mention that Saber Locks break rage. I think thats a bug...

However pull and grip is impossible for a gunner to run and get distance, I was pulled 7 times in air and a Jedi still had enough force to grip me. And I had a full tank of fuel. I think Grip needs to be looked into. To me it feels really overpowered when I play gunner.
I think the problem is that the kick from rapid fire of heavy weapons is preventing the heavy weapons from being as lethal as they should be. The extra damage inflicted on running saberists should be helping with equalizing the risks for Jedi vs gunner, it's just that gunners with heavy weapons are so easy to push when they go full bore. Full force vulnerability should apply for more long range or high-yield weapons like the disruptor and rocket launcher, but not as much for like the T-21 and Clone Rifle. The benefit of those two weapons should be their high ROF (or in the case of the T-21, if it becomes more shotgun-like, the damage spread), so the high rate of incurring mishap is kinda nerfing their efficacy, especially in games where players have at least 90+ skill points.

The fact that you can cancel grip if you shoot whoever's gripping you should help - I haven't checked, but using a flamethrower can be another way of preventing grip. Ideally a close-range weapon with a wide spread would help against someone being gripped, which is why I've been continually advocating for having the T21 primary fire like a shotgun spread.

Yeah, the saberlocks unintentionally cancel Rage and Protect. It's a nice counter to Rage (when the server actually allows saberlocks *ahem TNT clan server*), but the canceling of Protect I'm not too keen on.

Rage and Protect need a little tweaking, they're still too much like the baseJA powers. But once they're balanced out and have more depth they should be well-integrated additions to a saberist's repertoire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unbeholden View Post
No shhit.
I was being nice about your penchant for overstating the obvious. Don't be an ass.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unbeholden
I never said it didn't.
Misread. Your diction wasn't very clear. I think what you were intending to say was that use of Light Side powers were more meditative, not suppressive of emotions but finding inner peace, while Dark Side powers were more like capitalizing on one's emotional lack of equilibrium.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unbeholden
Indeed, limitations on everything, limitation is what makes players happy (sarcasm)
Yeah, like it makes so much sense to master both Light and Dark Side powers when the fundamental basis for channeling them are so opposite of each other. And it makes so much sense gameplay-wise to be be all "I AM OVER 9000!!!11" with level 3 everything so you're some ubergod who's really just compensating for something, eliminating the careful calculations one has to make to beat other people. If we're going to focus more on tactical gameplay, the latter is the more sensible approach. The Ubergod complex is for prepubescents.



Last edited by Tanqexe; 06-20-2008 at 10:51 PM.
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Old 06-20-2008, 10:41 PM   #13
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Replacement for rage (this replacement will be a neutral power)

__________
-Force Deflection-

Level 1
Use like parry, send incoming blaster bolts in a random direction with 50% efficiency (Half the bolts will be deflected). Cannot be selected if user uses guns/lightsaber (force only builds).

=Why?=
Encourage the use of force powers over guns and sabers to add another layer to the game.

=Why not?=
I dunno, why not?

____________
-Force Deflection-

Level 2
Use like parry, send incoming blaster bolts towards the person firing with 75% efficiency (3/4 of the bolts will be deflected when parried correctly). Cannot be selected if the user has selected guns/lightsaber (force only builds).

=Why? and Why not?=
See the level 1
___________________________
-Force Deflection

Level 3
Use like parry, send incoming blaster bolts extremely close towards the person firing with 90% efficiency (9/10 bolts reflected when parried correctly). Cannot be selected if the user has selceted guns/lightsaber (force only builds).

=Why?=
Encourages team based fighting on the enemy team. This only works when facing the firer. Like "You push from behind, I pull from front", except "Shoot that dude in the back while I shoot 'im in the front"

=Why not?=
You're dumb if you don't like this idea...


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Old 06-20-2008, 11:37 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDestroyer99 View Post
Replacement for rage (this replacement will be a neutral power)
Yeah this is a nice idea, I remember thinking about expanding Force as a third axis of gameplay instead of limiting it to the current saberist/gunner paradigm. This'll definitely help.

I'm seriously contemplating getting rid of the bubble-based skill point selection screen right now. We can go for something smaller, almost like a power meter of sorts that can "branch out" to indicate the unlocking of different skills. For one, it'll free up a LOT more space to put in powers and have maybe 2 lines for description of powers (this will be a great boon especially for saber style descriptions + skills with extra lvl 3 bonuses). Not to mention it'll look more sci-fi and less Sim City-ish.


Couple ideas, variations on a theme:

Neutral Powers

Force Sense
-Force Sense (lvl 1): Like current Sense 3
-Knight Sense (lvl 2): Displays ally and enemy HP/SP/DP/FP; dodge full charge sniper shot at cost of half your DP (or some large set amount); 115 FP pool
-Master Sense (lvl 3):Knight Sense abilities, dodge full charge sniper shot at cost of 1/4 DP pool (or some more reduced amount); 125 FP pool

Force Resistance (Absorb): Passive power but can be used actively to repel
-Force Resist (lvl 1): Passive Force resistance lvl 1
-Knight Resist (lvl 2): Passive Force resist lvl 2, limited reflection of Force powers (a bit iffy on this, working out this idea)
-Master Resist (lvl 3): Passive Force resist lvl 3, reflect Force powers in wide arc

Force Speed (same as current)
Force Telekinesis (manipulate objects): enables chargeable Push/Pull, increasing level-> increased duration of moving manipulable object (like grip but without the HP damage) - good for moving objects in the path of gunner fire, all the other good stuff we've been experiencing using grip right now.
-Force Push (lvl 1): Like the current lvl 1 except with the force of a current lvl 2, affects 1 person; pushing people into walls and other objects hurts them
-Force Push (lvl 2): Like the current lvl 3, affects multiple people in forward arc
-Force Push (lvl 3): Force Wave, great for crowd control, velocity of current lvl 3 or maybe a little more, closer people are to the epicenter the higher the velocity of push

-Force Pull: Same principle as revised Push, except the fact that you can currently get knocked over a lot needs to be addressed

-Force Jump: Maybe Jump 3 can afford more horizontal forward direction if you do a running jump.

Light Side Powers: These tend to be more team-oriented, defensive powers.

Force Heal: Team heal incl. self, regens HP & DP, effect varies w/ level

Force Valor - Team energize
Temporarily boosts max DP pool, DP/FP regen, effect varies with level
(Lvl 3) Battle Meditation-like effect, extreme version of Team energize
-slightly slows DP/FP regen rates for opposing team in area if they are vulnerable to Force

Mind Trick
Mind Trick (lvl 1): Current Mind Trick lvl 1
(lvl 2): Current Mind Trick lvl 2
(lvl 3): Current Mind Trick lvl 3 - If enemy has deployed sentry or seeker, sentry/seeker will target enemy as well

Force Protect
Like current; reduces HP damage from high velocity impacts, punches; reduces DP damage from blaster bolts and saber strikes; slight increases per level, reduced activation cost & drain per level

Force Stasis: Slows enemy movement for fixed duration
Force Stasis (lvl 1): Slows targeted enemy movement to 85%, 4 seconds
Knight Stasis (lvl 2): Slows enemy movement to 70% in a limited arc and range, 8 seconds
Master Stasis (lvl 3): Slows enemy movement to 65% in moderate arc and range, 10 seconds

Dark Side Powers: These powers are meant to be offensive, not so team oriented but are aimed at attacking multiple opponents at their highest levels

Force Choke: same as current Grip, but a little different
Choke (lvl 1): same as current Grip 2
Choke (lvl 2): same as current Grip 3
Choke (lvl 3): can grip 3 multiple opponents, a hybrid of Grip 2 and 3 - enemies stay in air for about 1 or 2 seconds after end of Grip (this might be too much, the 1-2 sec hovering doesn't have to be there, it's meant to prevent people from immediately jumping out of the way after being temporarily asphyxiated, which doesn't make much sense)

Force Lightning: same as current Lightning but with a few changes
Lightning (lvl 1): Current Lightning 2
Lightning (lvl 2): Current Lightning 3
Lightning (lvl 3): 360-degree AoE lightning, same or shorter range than Lightning 2

Force Drain: Drains enemy FP and replenishes your own at cost of DP
(dependent on enemy Force vulnerability of course)

Force Rage: Faster strikes, regular strikes do extra DP/FP damage; high mishap from getting parried, but mishap cost is slightly reduced with level

Force Scream: Disorients (maybe veeery slight camera jarring) and temporarily increases mishap of enemies if enemy mishap >=5; can show affected duration by associating a shader effect on targets (like what's being used for Mind Trick) - This would be pretty devastating in conjunction with Makashi


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Old 06-21-2008, 12:13 AM   #15
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I like the idea of more force for sense, but the AoE lightning should work like this:

Short range
Half the distance of push lvl 1 as knockback to enemies that are in range
Short, jolting burst
Can turn on/off w/ bind from the lvl 3 to the lvl 2


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Old 06-21-2008, 12:19 AM   #16
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Hmm...or, use quick parry button in conjunction with the force binds for AoE effect at lvl 3? This can apply for Push/Pull and other possible AoE force powers as well.


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Old 06-21-2008, 05:21 AM   #17
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I am not to keen on Force Scream because it just doesnt seem... Well, I mean force scream is not a power you hear to much about and it seems kinda childish whiney... To me it just doesnt have a fitting feeling... I feel that destruction would be much better. The concept of Scream is nice, I just have a feeling that it may not be... pretty. But I am not 100% against it either.

Force stasis I am against fully because you can already be slowed by having low DP which lightning will do in time... And you already have Force Speed which can close the gaps. It doesn't add to the games overall fun factor if you get my drift when 2 other powers can be used to gain distance, especially speed. Not to mention Pull can also stall them.
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Old 06-21-2008, 06:18 AM   #18
The Unbeholden
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I was being nice about your penchant for overstating the obvious. Don't be an ass.

Misread. Your diction wasn't very clear. I think what you were intending to say was that use of Light Side powers were more meditative, not suppressive of emotions but finding inner peace, while Dark Side powers were more like capitalizing on one's emotional lack of equilibrium.



Yeah, like it makes so much sense to master both Light and Dark Side powers when the fundamental basis for channeling them are so opposite of each other. And it makes so much sense gameplay-wise to be be all "I AM OVER 9000!!!11" with level 3 everything so you're some ubergod who's really just compensating for something, eliminating the careful calculations one has to make to beat other people. If we're going to focus more on tactical gameplay, the latter is the more sensible approach. The Ubergod complex is for prepubescents.
im not an ass... Your the ass.

many have mastered both light and dark. Such as Darth Traya for instance, learning to control your emotion, meditation techniques and unleashing your anger when its needed is possible. Training both light and dark can be vigorous and time consuming, but some have spent alot of time on it and succeeded surprisingly well.

Not to mention resisting the lure of the dark side without completely succumbing to its influence. Using its power none the less, very interesting i found it. I think that if lust for power isn't in your heart then i think it won't corrupt you. Darth Traya is evidence of that.

So its entirely possible in being powerful in both light and dark, if enough time is spent in learning both its mysteries.

Revan was another powerful Sith that even though used evil methods, his intentions where good.

this supports this fact....

"Darth Revan's brutally efficient invasion of the galaxy had been part of a complex plan to secure the Republic from a long-hidden threat known as the "True Sith", suggesting that Revan had departed on a solitary quest to defeat them once and for all."

"perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew. The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil."

"Leading his hidden forces to the Lehon system, Revan began to realize his plans. Though the Star Forge was capable of granting vast power to those who fully embraced its dark nature, Revan minimized his exposure to the ancient space station, using it purely to construct an enormous fleet with which to conquer the Republic. Darth Malak, horrified that his master would reject such strength, would later balk at what he perceived to be Revan's stupidity, yet the truth was that Revan was far from ignorant."

"Revan, unlike his apprentice, understood the dangerous consequences of drawing upon the Star Forge too heavily. The artifact had led the Infinite Empire to its doom: fueling the Rakatan species' hate, driving them to civil war. Revan had no intention of letting over-reliance on the Star Forge disrupt the order he planned to bring to the galaxy. As with everything else, he would use it for as long as he needed it, then discard it."

"Revan was an incredibly talented and diligent student of the Force—perhaps the most gifted of his time—and eventually, by all accounts, became a very powerful Force practitioner. As one of the few individuals in galactic history to reach the heights of Sith power and return to the Jedi, he proved himself highly skilled in the use of both the dark and light sides of the Force."


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Old 06-21-2008, 08:57 AM   #19
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Force Scream doesn't sound childish. ~_~ there are many forms of combat nowadays where a certain yell or scream is used in different ways, for example to add power to your own thrust / slash, or to intimidate the opponent. (or both).

I would like Force Protect to also protect from a stickied Detpack.

I think if Force Lightning would be 360 degrees at lvl 3, The way it works should be elaborated upon.

For example: would you rather point a gun to your front, then have a magic bullet that splits up in 20 bullets that fly all around? Or point a gun upwards, and have them all spread equally? (Considering that according to teh crap lightning spreads from the fingertips, meaning if you stick your arms out to the front, the way it spreads with 360 degrees would be different than when you put them up in the air)


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Old 06-21-2008, 11:24 AM   #20
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Force Deadly Sight would be wicked. It causes burning damage to all enemies within a certain range and in a person's line of sight. Could be overpowered, though.


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Old 06-21-2008, 02:16 PM   #21
Kahn D'halaine
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Some of my ideas:

Force Push, Pull and Grip:
Changed into Force Telekinesis and Force Choke.
Telekinesis controls level of both push and pull, thus these won't be in the leveling menu.
Instead you change the distance between you and lifted object by pressing push/pull buttons - the more rapid change, the bigger momentum of the affected object...
When using telekinesis you shouldn't be nerfed in speed as with the current Grip, but when applying Choke, then you should.
Choke causes damage to your opponent and makes him/her immobile for a moment (like Luke did to the Gamorreans in ROTJ), but doesn't lift them.

Next step would be liftable items, and eventually liftable map objects. Imagine lifting up a bunch of crates and throwing them to a squad of stormtroopers...
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Old 06-21-2008, 02:52 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by ZerooftheFour View Post
I am not to keen on Force Scream because it just doesnt seem... Well, I mean force scream is not a power you hear to much about and it seems kinda childish whiney... To me it just doesnt have a fitting feeling... I feel that destruction would be much better. The concept of Scream is nice, I just have a feeling that it may not be... pretty. But I am not 100% against it either.

Force stasis I am against fully because you can already be slowed by having low DP which lightning will do in time... And you already have Force Speed which can close the gaps. It doesn't add to the games overall fun factor if you get my drift when 2 other powers can be used to gain distance, especially speed. Not to mention Pull can also stall them.
Well in terms of effects Lightning already serves a decent purpose in terms of a Dark Side mid- to long-range DP drainer (without being super OP in a multiplayer scenario, not simply 1 v 1 duel), so having Force Destruction may seem either a bit superfluous or should have some serious drawbacks for something so ridiculously powerful. Scream was a pretty effective power from KotOR 2 that did physical damage and also lowered attributes - if translated into OJP it would be overkill, but the idea behind it could prove useful, especially against gunners who've been shooting full-bore at high mastery level. Against Force users it would be another way to drive up someone's mishap after being parried or dealt Makashi strikes several times, but it rewards someone who's good at parries who would be immune to such a power. I'm not really against Force Destruction as a Dark Side power, but it'd have to be balanced out with a counter on the Light Side as well (Stasis comes in handy here)

Stasis was meant to affect run speed as well as attacks. Speed has some limitations. A gunner can still use Jetpack to run away/hit the flamethrower, and a Force user can use Speed as well, do a ridiculously high Jump 1 or Push/Lightning, especially when they're almost dead. Stasis is another means of countering fast attacks from someone in Rage if you parry him 2-3 times in succession, as well as to counter someone who's already vulnerable to force but is retreating with Jump and/or Speed, as a more elegant alternative to Push/Pull, where you have to repeatedly use the power if the enemy isn't completely vulnerable to force. It would also be the equivalent of a cryo/adhesive grenade for gunners should something like that be implemented. I can see Stasis as being a bit more unfair for gunners, but if we either a) up the damage per shot on the heavy weapons only (or all weapons except pistol and bowcaster), or b) lower the mishap costs on the heavy weapons, then things may balance out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unbeholden
im not an ass... Your the ass.
Says someone who assumes we don't already know about or how to Wiki a list of Force powers, or hints at our making Force powers that are non-canon. Bit of an insult to intelligence. We're all Star Wars fans here.

Quote:
many have mastered both light and dark. Such as Darth Traya for instance, learning to control your emotion, meditation techniques and unleashing your anger when its needed is possible. training both light and dark can be vigorous and time consuming, but some such have spent alot of time on it and succeeded surprisingly well.

Not to mention resisting the lure of the dark side without completely succumbing to its influence. Using its power none the less, very interesting i found it. I think that if lust for power isn't in your heart then i think it won't corrupt you. Darth Traya is evidence of that.

So its entirely possible in being powerful in both light and dark, if enough time is spent in learning both its mysteries.
Wiki up the Potentium heresy. I'm reluctant to bring up the NJO stuff because the writers have left a very bad taste in my mouth on how they handle the NJO characters, but there's a reason why Luke brought back the orthodox Dark/Light distinctions of the Force and got rid of the Potentium philosophy. Caedus being a big reason. Palpatine also used this idea to lure Anakin in Ep III. Besides, you're talking about the exception and not the norm. We want to simulate the norm in gameplay, not the exception - one reason why Sever Force would be a crap power in a game, as an example. Or multiple people who're as uber as to be in-game equivalents of Legacy era Luke Skywalker (even someone with 500 skill points to use won't even come close to a Luke).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha
Force Scream doesn't sound childish. ~_~ there are many forms of combat nowadays where a certain yell or scream is used in different ways, for example to add power to your own thrust / slash, or to intimidate the opponent. (or both).
Those're kiai...I know you're trying to make a point about efficacy. Force Scream did sonic damage and affected attributes in KotOR II, didn't have anything to do with bolstering lightsaber combat abilities, which is what I'm aiming more towards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha

I would like Force Protect to also protect from a stickied Detpack.
Or at least reduce the damage, plus maybe prevent knockdown from explosions, limited to outside a certain radius of the explosion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha
I think if Force Lightning would be 360 degrees at lvl 3, The way it works should be elaborated upon.

For example: would you rather point a gun to your front, then have a magic bullet that splits up in 20 bullets that fly all around? Or point a gun upwards, and have them all spread equally? (Considering that according to teh crap lightning spreads from the fingertips, meaning if you stick your arms out to the front, the way it spreads with 360 degrees would be different than when you put them up in the air)
That would depend on what would make a Level 3 power worth buying, I guess - offensive crowd control or suppressive crowd control (difference is in damage, duration, and whether the strikes are random (i.e. a bunch of random single strand lightnings within a radius, or a complete blanket of the lightning effect witin a certain radius). Having strikes at random would be too much of a hassle to code, probably.

I can see this working in three ways:

1)High damage, short burst within specified radius - drains lots of DP in that short burst, and at the fringe of the radius, pushback/knockdown a la grenade where people get thrown back. Cost is a significant set amount of FP. This is the offensive crowd control option. Visually it'll look like the AoE version of multiple bolts of the old Lightning 2 EFX to show the powerful short burst.

2)Draining damage (like current lvl 3), long duration burst. Pretty much AoE version of new lvl 2 lightning (old lvl 3). This is the suppressive crowd control option. Effect would be AoE version of old Lightning 3 EFX.

3)Combine the two. Default lvl 3 is option 2, holding a secondary bind gives you the short burst damage of option 1 (variation on Destroyer's suggestion).

Now, this would be a pretty powerful tool, and once you're stuck in there you're kind of helpless. Gunners can shoot, even when they're getting knocked down or pushed back; Force users can't really use their sabers at this point, so there will have to be a counter - Push? An active Absorb power to reflect? Make using Lightning drain more DP but at the cost of rising Mishap?

Option 3 gets me thinking how we can use a secondary bind (perhaps quick parry button) to change the normal force power effects into AoE versions of their respective powers - doable only at lvl 3. Push/Pull are obvious - what about AoE Choke, where multiple people undergo Choke lvl 2 (rising into the air while choking), with the vanilla Choke 3 being able to move/Choke multiple people? And then Stasis, Scream, etc.


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Old 06-21-2008, 03:08 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Kahn D'halaine View Post
Some of my ideas:

Force Push, Pull and Grip:
Changed into Force Telekinesis and Force Choke.
Telekinesis controls level of both push and pull, thus these won't be in the leveling menu.
Instead you change the distance between you and lifted object by pressing push/pull buttons - the more rapid change, the bigger momentum of the affected object...
When using telekinesis you shouldn't be nerfed in speed as with the current Grip, but when applying Choke, then you should.
Choke causes damage to your opponent and makes him/her immobile for a moment (like Luke did to the Gamorreans in ROTJ), but doesn't lift them.

Next step would be liftable items, and eventually liftable map objects. Imagine lifting up a bunch of crates and throwing them to a squad of stormtroopers...
That is getting into a level of physics that I don't even want to begin to dream about the hundreds of thousands of lines of code Darthdie would be up for months writing... then again, he could tie in a pre-made physics engine... the only thing needed would be entities that map makers could use for OJP-E specific.


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Old 06-21-2008, 03:23 PM   #24
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LOL, I think Darth's having some fun tying in some physics engine or other. IIRC he said he's tried a few but one might be working - don't really remember what he said yesterday.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahn D'halaine
Some of my ideas:

Force Push, Pull and Grip:
Changed into Force Telekinesis and Force Choke.
Telekinesis controls level of both push and pull, thus these won't be in the leveling menu.
Instead you change the distance between you and lifted object by pressing push/pull buttons - the more rapid change, the bigger momentum of the affected object...
When using telekinesis you shouldn't be nerfed in speed as with the current Grip, but when applying Choke, then you should.
Choke causes damage to your opponent and makes him/her immobile for a moment (like Luke did to the Gamorreans in ROTJ), but doesn't lift them.

Next step would be liftable items, and eventually liftable map objects. Imagine lifting up a bunch of crates and throwing them to a squad of stormtroopers...
Integrating Push/Pull into TK is actually a really, really elegant idea. Maybe this can be how TK Push/Pull can work:

Single button to activate TK. Lasts a certain duration dependent on level. Tap TK button again to cancel. However, if you hold down TK button, you can go up to 3 levels of push/pull. When you let go of the TK button, your target will be flung in the direction you are moving. The Push/Pull buttons in TK mode can adjust the distance of the object to you. Aided with the mouse, you can push-fling someone, if Darth gets ragdoll physics working. Push Pull buttons can work as their chargeable selves without having to activate TK, just for those quick and dirty push/pulls in the middle of a chaotic fight.

Quick parry button + lvl 3 TK = lift multiple objects to Push/Pull.

Hmm...I see where you're going with the whole Choke w/ no lift thing, but I don't know if it'd be too much of a hassle to activate TK at the same time. Technically if you've targeted someone with TK they're already vulnerable to Force, so I guess that could work.


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Old 06-21-2008, 06:54 PM   #25
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What if... You made Team Heal named to Force Valor and that recovers HP DP FP and Mishap, and then the Dark Side gets Force Resurrect. It be a cool imitation to Darth Plagueis in which you can bring back the dead to life.
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Old 06-21-2008, 07:22 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by ZerooftheFour View Post
What if... You made Team Heal named to Force Valor and that recovers HP DP FP and Mishap, and then the Dark Side gets Force Resurrect. It be a cool imitation to Darth Plagueis in which you can bring back the dead to life.
I'd get pissed off if some noob went around resurecting my body in the middle of a fight...


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Old 06-21-2008, 07:30 PM   #27
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I'd get pissed off if some noob went around resurecting my body in the middle of a fight...
I know what you mean, I play 2142 and it sucks to have 2 seconds left till respawn and this noob resurrects you right in front of a tank only for you to die again... So maybe there can be an Accept and Decline button.
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Old 06-22-2008, 07:46 AM   #28
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Wiki up the Potentium heresy. I'm reluctant to bring up the NJO stuff because the writers have left a very bad taste in my mouth on how they handle the NJO characters, but there's a reason why Luke brought back the orthodox Dark/Light distinctions of the Force and got rid of the Potentium philosophy. Caedus being a big reason. Palpatine also used this idea to lure Anakin in Ep III. Besides, you're talking about the exception and not the norm. We want to simulate the norm in gameplay, not the exception - one reason why Sever Force would be a crap power in a game, as an example. Or multiple people who're as uber as to be in-game equivalents of Legacy era Luke Skywalker (even someone with 500 skill points to use won't even come close to a Luke).
hmm interesting. So Light and Dark isn't inherently good or evil, depends on the individual. Everybody has their own Light and Dark potential. Only those that have more Dark side potential are the ones that use their dark side for evil purposes. Using the Dark side of the force isn't evil, if the intention isn't evil. So its possible to use the Dark side of the force for good intentions. Interesting. I think the Potentium philosophy makes the most sense, in that the force isn't split into good and evil. But people are. Light side can be used for evil intentions just like the dark side. I have been enlightened, thank you Master Tanqexe. I will meditate on this.


What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets!

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Old 06-22-2008, 08:58 AM   #29
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Uhhhh, you completely missed my point. The Potentium heresy is heresy for a reason. Channeling the Dark Side ultimately corrupts you. It's incompatible with the Light Side. Palpatine used the Potentium heresy to attempt to lure Anakin in Ep III (the scene where Anakin tells Palpatine that Obi-Wan's engaged Grievous). Vergere, a fallen Jedi who came under instruction of Palpatine, used the Potentium heresy to lure Jacen, who ultimately fell to the Dark Side, believing he could master both sides. Yoda hunted down Potentium heretics at some point because of the danger of the Potentium theory in luring people to the Dark Side. Looking further back, there were the examples of Ulic Qel-Droma, Kreia, and even Revan.


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Old 06-22-2008, 05:41 PM   #30
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Hey,


Screw you, Kreia and Revan were damn awesome.


Love,

Maxstate

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Old 06-22-2008, 05:47 PM   #31
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THIS...





























IS...



























STAR WARS!!!
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Old 06-22-2008, 10:53 PM   #32
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Uhhhh, you completely missed my point. The Potentium heresy is heresy for a reason. Channeling the Dark Side ultimately corrupts you. It's incompatible with the Light Side. Palpatine used the Potentium heresy to attempt to lure Anakin in Ep III (the scene where Anakin tells Palpatine that Obi-Wan's engaged Grievous). Vergere, a fallen Jedi who came under instruction of Palpatine, used the Potentium heresy to lure Jacen, who ultimately fell to the Dark Side, believing he could master both sides. Yoda hunted down Potentium heretics at some point because of the danger of the Potentium theory in luring people to the Dark Side. Looking further back, there were the examples of Ulic Qel-Droma, Kreia, and even Revan.
Darth Traya is evidence that contradicts what you said. Not to mention there where other Potentium members that never became sith,

Heresy is a good thing, "If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal."

Sure Palpatine uses this, but he used this philosophy to try to turn anakin for evil intentions. Where as the philosophy itself isn't evil.

face it jedi are flawed.

Jedi Masters refused to believe in the Potentium view because it would mean the Jedi weren't needed to fight evil, for evil would not exist. the council believed that it was the duty of the Jedi to use the Force to protect others, not study its absolute limits.

Lets not forget Darth Revan, Sure he was a Sith and used evil methods but his intentions where good, this supported the Potentium philosophy.


What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets!

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Old 06-23-2008, 12:26 AM   #33
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I want Force Fart.
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Old 06-23-2008, 03:33 AM   #34
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Cripes...we really need our own forums where we can talk about stuff not relevant to OJP.


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Hey,


Screw you, Kreia and Revan were damn awesome.


Love,

Maxstate
Hey,

Yes they are. Except for the thought of Kreia in lingerie.

Loves you too Maxy <3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unbeholden
Darth Traya is evidence that contradicts what you said. Not to mention there where other Potentium members that never became sith,
Darth Traya was slowly corrupted by the Potentium philosophy and shunned by the Order. Note that in the end of the game she was revealed to be a Sith, used highly questionable manipulations of other characters throughout the entire story, and furthermore wanted to destroy the Force, an idea that is inherently very tainted with the influence of the Dark side. The lure of DS is very subversive, and some people don't even realize that they've fallen until they're in deep - like Jacen from NJO and Atris from KotOR 2.

The Light/Dark distinction was taught for thousands of years during the Old Republic era because of the dangers of skirting the Dark Side - with good reason. It makes you much, much more vulnerable to corruption. Luke was almost corrupted during Dark Empire in the mistaken belief that he could defeat the Dark side from within without being corrupted, until Leia saved him. Besides, the distinction of abstract, almost entity-like Light/Dark sides of the Force has the George Lucas Stamp of Approval. You can't argue with that, really. Plus, in your efforts to convey the information from Wookieepedia, you neglected the very crucial statement here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Potentium Entry from Wookieepedia
The Power of the Jedi Sourcebook states that the Potentium is a corrupt, misguided philosophy, and is the first canonical source to outright state this.
Official word against yours.


Anyway, the point that you are completely missing, which is why this is in any way at all relevant to OJP, is that it is very, very rare that someone can master both Light AND Dark side powers without some kind of price.

Light side Force users channel the Force by meditation, harmony, and positive emotions - for the purpose of defense, never to attack/kill - Yoda's words in Episode V.

Dark side Force users channel the Force as a concentrated, focused release of extreme emotion (usually negative) as the catalyst.

These are completely different methodologies of wielding the Force. Mastery of one while attempting mastery of another comes at some cost, something that's well reflected in how Light/Dark Force powers were given bonuses and penalties depending on your alignment in KotOR.

Think about it - you're a Jedi and asked to tap into your Rage (a temptation of the Dark Side), and then immediately you have to heal yourself (let's consider that a Light Side power). So one moment you're reeling from allowing yourself to tap into all these negative emotions, and then the next moment you're supposed to be all Zen-like? Or is it easier to imagine that you're already in a peaceful meditative state to tap into Light Force powers, such that you can readily call upon other Light Force powers without extra strain? That is what we should simulate with the Light/Dark Force power dichotomy. Tapping into both sides must come at some cost.

If you want to discuss gameplay mechanics or talk about Star Wars canon, please don't plagiarize Wookieepedia and pass it off as if you wrote all that. We've talked about this before, and I really hope you ween off the bad habit before it gets you in some kind of academic trouble.



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Old 06-23-2008, 04:45 AM   #35
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Do NOT take what happened in KOTOR 2 to have any inkling of any sort of truth in regards to the overall machinations of the Force in Star Wars. Doing so is pretty much immediate grounds for dismissal of your theory.

Its story was heavily clouded by the biases of its writer, Chris Avellone. He's into gray areas, so to speak. He doesn't like how Star Wars normally operates, so he screwed with it. End of story.


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Old 06-23-2008, 05:57 AM   #36
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That's why I like it.

KOTOR reminds me a lot more of the old trilogy, it has the same "epic" feel to it.

So, any other Force powers you guys want?

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Old 06-23-2008, 06:26 AM   #37
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Light side Force users channel the Force by meditation, harmony, and positive emotions - for the purpose of defense, never to attack/kill - Yoda's words in Episode V.

Dark side Force users channel the Force as a concentrated, focused release of extreme emotion (usually negative) as the catalyst.

These are completely different methodologies of wielding the Force. Mastery of one while attempting mastery of another comes at some cost, something that's well reflected in how Light/Dark Force powers were given bonuses and penalties depending on your alignment in KotOR.

Think about it - you're a Jedi and asked to tap into your Rage (a temptation of the Dark Side), and then immediately you have to heal yourself (let's consider that a Light Side power). So one moment you're reeling from allowing yourself to tap into all these negative emotions, and then the next moment you're supposed to be all Zen-like? Or is it easier to imagine that you're already in a peaceful meditative state to tap into Light Force powers, such that you can readily call upon other Light Force powers without extra strain? That is what we should simulate with the Light/Dark Force power dichotomy. Tapping into both sides must come at some cost.

If you want to discuss gameplay mechanics or talk about Star Wars canon, please don't plagiarize Wookieepedia and pass it off as if you wrote all that. We've talked about this before, and I really hope you ween off the bad habit before it gets you in some kind of academic trouble.
I agree,

I was quoting Wookieepedia, any dumb ass can see that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanqexe View Post
Darth Traya was slowly corrupted by the Potentium philosophy and shunned by the Order. Note that in the end of the game she was revealed to be a Sith, used highly questionable manipulations of other characters throughout the entire story, and furthermore wanted to destroy the Force, an idea that is inherently very tainted with the influence of the Dark side. The lure of DS is very subversive, and some people don't even realize that they've fallen until they're in deep - like Jacen from NJO and Atris from KotOR 2.
Very morally wrong in many ways to manipulate everyone for her own will. But she wanted to destroy the force, because she hated the fact that it controlled us all. That we had to fight this never ending battle between light and dark for the rest of eternity. She hated anyone who had connection to the force, the only reason why she used for force was to understand it in order to destroy it, killing force users wasn't enough. She had to kill the force, but how can you kill a entity of unlimited power and a will that guides all? She found a way to create "echoes" in the force, she first discovered this injury in the force with in the exile.

Her hatred of the Force is fueled by anger but, if she did not kill it, even more lives would be lost in the future. Thus this supports the Potentium Philosophy, in that she used the dark side of the force but her intentions where good. NOT evil.

So basically she believed the ends justify the means.

I whole heartedly agree with this, so I share the same views as Traya... and im not tainted by the dark side or am I?

So I think the force doesn't turn us into something where not, it actually gives us our deepest darkest desires to life, where it be evil or good depends on the individual.

Even if it isn't supported by most i stand by this philosophy simply because i don't like star wars the way it is. So I guess we can't argue about this anymore.


What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets!

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Old 06-23-2008, 07:57 AM   #38
Maxstate
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Shut up already and give me some Force power suggestions.

Tell you what, next power to be suggested will be recreated and I'll post screenshots of it.

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Old 06-23-2008, 08:50 AM   #39
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Force atomic bomb.


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Old 06-23-2008, 11:47 AM   #40
Maxstate
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Here it is as a rocket explosion:

http://www.mediafire.com/?4yodnovr3sc

Use this to replace enhancedstuff/effects/rocket/explosion.efx.
It's too detailed/long for a screenshot, but I guess this'll do.

Edit:
could create it to be even more detailed if you want, but I sincerely doubt this'll be a force power ;p

Edit 2:
Uploaded new nuke with some more flashy particles. Needs more body now.

Edit 3:
For particle effects, you'll need http://www.mediafire.com/?xpyjp2jelg6 in enhancedstuff/effects/explosions.


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