Is TOR as good as KOTOR III?

[Darth_Yuthura]

The wise course of action would be to ignore this thread altogether, but so long as I ignore others... so I won't directly quote or make reference to anyone from now on.

My greatest reason for disliking this MMO is because it is NOT the expected conclusion that was implied at the end of TSL. It is placed 300 years into the future... long after all everything established in the first two are left in limbo indefinitely. 300 years is not a significant enough time that they could leave the possibility open for a true KOTOR III.

Before this was introduced, the cliffhanger of TSL was at least open to the imagination. Now even the imagination has been killed off because this MUST explain where Revan and the Exile left off. The thing that I despise is that Lucasarts used only enough of KOTOR content to call this the conclusion if it succeeds. If it fails, they could say it's completely independent of the original two and it would not ruin that franchise any more than the ending to TSL being incomplete.

This is all speculation, but no sources, no facts, and anyone could chose not to believe any of this.

[HK-42]

Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura

TOR and KOTOR III are NOT the same, but TOR as it is known explicitly declares that Revan and the Exile leave and never return. Then 350 years later, the enemies they went out to fight invade and conquer the Republic. This means that the climactic end to KOTOR is that the heros died or were converted.

But like in KOTOR you can imagine yourself what happened with Revan and the Exile...also it could be the emperor they did say he prolonged his life

[GwannaSauna]

ToR sounds OK, but what I really want is KotOR III or, better yet, KotOR IV: The Galactic Civil War video game! I mean, seriously, we can call the Galactic Civil War old, right? I mean, it's beyond 100+ ABY now. And between that huge gap is lot of stuff

[Soulouri]

I'm genuinely diasppointed that this is set 300 years after Revan, any kind of hopes I had for an amazing finish in KOTOR 3 are now destroyed and i'll have to make do with just reading about what happened rather than experiencing it

[Darth_Yuthura]

I'm glad to see that I'm not alone on this issue. I was very saddened not to see KOTOR III but I was frustrated that Lucasarts carved in stone that the spectacular ending I was anticipating would never be. I could understand that they would change the game from RPG because an MMO would be more profitable, but to set the game 300 years in the future?

I know I've already made my opinion known, but there was a 4000 year window that they could have used and to choose 300 years was just too close to KOTOR era for me. If they had chosen... 1000 years later, then I would have been satisfied to think that KOTOR ended positively, even if they didn't make the third game. Any timeframe greater than 15 years, but less than 500 years is too close to the KOTOR era.

I say again that the ONLY way I would be interested in the MMO is if they change the setting from 300 years to <15. That's all there is to it for me.

[Prime]

Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura

I say again that the ONLY way I would be interested in the MMO is if they change the setting from 300 years to <15. That's all there is to it for me.

But with no/handful Jedi running around in that timeframe, how would that work for a MMO?

[Sabretooth]

Originally Posted by Darth Moeller

I think I am probably just as excited for SWToR as I would be for a KotOR 3.

What he said.

[SW01]

Originally Posted by Prime

But with no/handful Jedi running around in that timeframe, how would that work for a MMO?

After thinking about it, it does seem that the timeframe immediately following TSL is spent. As Prime says, few Jedi about except the Exile's followers, even fewer Sith about (all-but destruction of Korriban's Academy infrastructure; destruction of Trayus Academy), and even the armies are strained.

I for one think that the later timeframe would in this case be necessary for a decent story involving all the usual Star Wars sects. Suddenly having a few thousand Jedi only a few years after a time with only a small handful left would cheapen TSL, imo.

[Darth_Yuthura]

How many Jedi were there at the end of ROTJ? I really don't believe numbers have much to do with why they chose 300 years after TSL.

Personally, I would have been much more for the Jedi facing nearly impossible odds than with a leveled playing field. When it is naturally expected that the Jedi would win 300 years down the road, then it seems a bit ironic that they would be beaten out by the True Sith when they were at full strength.

This shows that even after almost becoming extinct, the Jedi still didn't learn anything from the Mandalorian and Sith Wars. That completely demeans everything in the KOTOR story if they recover from those wars only to be crippled again by the same enemy.

[Weiser_Cain]

300 years is enough time to have a new set of heroes, villains, organizations and so on.

[Darth_Yuthura]

Originally Posted by Weiser_Cain

300 years is enough time to have a new set of heroes, villains, organizations and so on.

Same villains, same conflict as before.

I didn't want a new era, but if that's what Lucasarts intended, why not 1000 years later? That way, they can come up with a new series completely. This MMO is meant to be the ending of KOTOR because it involves the same enemy as the KOTOR series.

[EnderWiggin]

Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura

Same villains, same conflict as before.

I didn't want a new era, but if that's what Lucasarts intended, why not 1000 years later? That way, they can come up with a new series completely. This MMO is meant to be the ending of KOTOR because it involves the same enemy as the KOTOR series.

Not necessarily! It is quite possible that Revan and the Exile gave their lives in order to stop the True Sith, and the True Sith were stopped. But, just like how Revan spontaneously became a sith lord, perhaps another Master of the Dark Side arose out in the Outer Rim 300 years later due to some ancient sith teachings.

There's nothing to indicate that Revan was killed and that the True Sith just waited around for 300 years before attacking the Republic. In fact, that makes even less sense to me than what I proposed off the top of my head as an alternative.

_EW_

[Darth_Yuthura]

Right... nothing is certain. Maybe Bioware has something in store that becomes much greater than anything I would have imagined. This could indeed be the beginning of the best chapter of the KOTOR era.

However, based on what I've seen of the MMO and plot, I see nothing more but a cheap attempt to peal to KOTOR fans with something that vaguely touches upon such a masterpiece as KOTOR (and the second if it had been completed properly) Based on what little info has been released, I'm convinced that there is no conclusion that I will look forward to unless the game takes place... I won't say it again.

[Soulouri]

To be honest if there is a good story line and 'main quest' line that i can follow through then I will be happy.

I don't really mind the MMO aspect of it, but I feel that having 1,000s of other 'heroes' running around in a game like KOTOR takes away a huge part of the appeal for me. But, as I have been saying for a while now, I wont judge the game properly until I play it, this is all just speculation

[Darth_Yuthura]

Can't judge the game until you've played it?

Does that mean that in order to judge the game, one must buy it and pay an additional fee to go online before even knowing whether or not it's worth buying?

My advice... not like anyone asked it... don't buy it unless you know you like it. I do not want anyone buying a lemon because they waste their hard-earned cash and Lucasarts ends up on top whether they make a lemon or a masterpiece. If they indeed make a lemon, DO NOT let them think they can put 'Star Wars' or 'Kotor' on any product and expect profit. Otherwise, they'll keep making lemons and everyone else will continue to be disappointed.

[Web Rider]

I agree, and until I see some proof that this game is a superior product than previous Star Wars titles, I do not plan on buying it. And I do hope that there is some kind of open beta that will be free for a while or something to allow us to test it out.

[Q]

Same here, because I don't honestly know whether I'll like it or not. If I do it will be my first MMO, because the overall concept of an MMO has never really appealed to me before now.

A "Yoda" option is needed in the poll, BTW.

[Soulouri]

The thing is i'm an ex-Star Wars Galaxies player so I've been waiting for a Star Wars MMO for a very long time.

I am also a huge KOTOR fan so... I am completely on the fence about the game because I would of preferred KOTOR 3, but at the same time a KOTOR MMO sounds pretty awesome to me.

As I said I will wait to play it until I judge it though, simple fact is Bioware could sneeze in a box, throw a star wars label on the front and I'd buy it.

I know... im a sucker :/

[Weiser_Cain]

I have some faith in bioware based on games I've bought though it's the team and they are owned by EA now so it's hard to tell until later in development. Also I worry about art direction.

[Darth_Yuthura]

I've never used an MMO. I would have been open to a KOTOR III MMO simply for the sake that it's a continuation of one of my favorite pieces of the Star Wars universe. I think that is lucasarts was aiming to peal to KOTOR fans, they would have at least provided a single-player option as well as online gameplay.

KOTOR was built upon being single-player, but it would make sense to try something to broaden the horizon. What better way is there than to make a masterpiece that expands on something that has proven its success?

They shouldn't just create something that is ONLY multiple player, but something that can also be multiplayer. That way, it could be adaptable to both single and multi-player game lovers. Is it really that difficult to use NPC's in place of people online?

[TKA-001]

Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura

because it involves the same enemy as the KOTOR series.

If by "the same enemy" you mean the Sith, then you could apply that to every single [post-5,000 BBY] era of the entire Star Wars timeline. Either way, it still doesn't make sense because there's been numerous Sith Orders and the True Sith never appeared in either KOTOR games, anyway. On top of that, they were never even confirmed to exist until now.

[Weiser_Cain]

I know it isn't feasible but I still wanted to see more of the Rakata. It's kind of a shame they set this in the past instead of the future since they can't do anything too radical without going completely off cannon.

[Darth_Yuthura]

The True Sith were there from the very beginning of the Mandalorian Wars. They conducted everything so that the Jedi would be destroyed... according to Revan via HK-47. The Council believed the true threat... the True Sith... had never revealed themselves because they were afraid to face the Jedi directly. This indicates that the True Sith may not have been so great a power as some have made them out to be... I won't say names.

If the True Sith couldn't directly face the Jedi even after the Civil War, then it's not so outrageous to have the story start shortly after TSL. If there were ever a time that they would have attacked the Republic or Jedi, it was then. They would not have just decided to give them time to recover so that they could have a fair fight. The idea that they would wait 300 years after TSL is ridiculous.

The True Sith are the enemy behind everything in KOTOR and always have been. Naturally, they should be the enemy that is defeated at the end of the saga.

[Weiser_Cain]

Or maybe the true Sith lacked numbers, and or are really smart, or are long lived and time just sorta slipped by. I could swear the true Sith interbred with those dark jedi...

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by Weiser_Cain

Or maybe the true Sith lacked numbers, and or are really smart, or are long lived and time just sorta slipped by. I could swear the true Sith interbred with those dark jedi...

Yep, this is how the Sith became what they are - native Sith of Korriban interbred with Dark Jedi. You can read about them in our game info section.

[Tommycat]

Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura

Is it really that difficult to use NPC's in place of people online?

No, it's not difficult. However it is the content hosting that gets harder and harder.

You know I see a lot of judging going on. They haven't even shown gameplay footage. Do you know what races we can play as? What the missions will be like. What will the stories be like? How can people judge a game that they haven't seen at all? This may be the greatest game ever made. But people are judging it as if it's the worst. Granted it has just as much potential to be the worst. But as it sits now, nobody here has played it. Everything might well change once we get a few registered members here playing the game. There might also be a free trial a few years out(maybe even a year after release). Generally when you get an online game, you also get a month of subscription. So if you get the game you will be able to play.

I'm keeping an open mind about it. With luck it'll be a very good game. I intend as of now to be one of the first people playing. Most of my guild in Galaxies intend to play there as well. We'll see how I feel as more info comes out.

[Sharen Thrawn]

Originally Posted by Prime

But with no/handful Jedi running around in that timeframe, how would that work for a MMO?

And that is my problem with the MMO's storyline. To me it screams "We weren't crafting a storyline. We were compiling an MMO and then tried to tailor some storyline to it". Seriously. It's like they thought that there just have to be tons of Jedi in the MMO or it won't be E_P-I_C. Of course Jedi need a worthy enemy. Yay! Let's throw thousands of Sith there! But where they came from? Hmmm..... Let's bring back the Naga Sadow Sith Empire. They are über evil = EPIC. Ohh and let's call them the Trrrrrrrue Sith. Screw Obsidian's plans to make the True Sith some different faction. Ohh, and let's rip The Original Trilogy once again by throwing some Emperor there, as if Kotor 1 wasn't enough of The Original Trilogy remake. Doesn't matter. Emperor sounds evil and EPIC. EPIC Star Wars experience. But what we're gonna do with Revan? Oh, well, he never returned from the Unknown Regions. Case closed. HAHAHA!

Yes, I'm taking it too far. But the plot for the MMO sounds really cheap and just too generic IMO. Everyone could came up with sth like this. "Hey! LucasArts here! Make me a Star Wars MMO!" - "Sure! It's gonna be a battle between The Republic and The Sith! Clever ha?". BTW BioWare already kinda used this "Cold War" (between the Republic and the Sith Empire) theme in Kotor 1 (Maanam providing kolto for both factions, recruits applying into the Jedi Academy on Dantooine or Sith Academy on Korriban etc).

[Weiser_Cain]

Alternately there had to be tons of jedi to justify the players being majority jedi/sith,
Also the star wars story was circular from the start, Luke would fall like his father before blah, blah blah.
Are you guys sure you're star wars fans?

[TKA-001]

Screw Obsidian's plans to make the True Sith some different faction.

What plans?

let's rip The Original Trilogy once again by throwing some Emperor there, as if Kotor 1 wasn't enough of The Original Trilogy remake.

So you're saying that it's a ripoff of the OT just because there's a guy whose title is "Emperor"? That's preposterous.

News-flash: the word "emperor" has existed for thousands of years, so by your logic, the fact that Palpatine's title was "Emperor" is unoriginal, too.

BioWare already kinda used this "Cold War" (between the Republic and the Sith Empire) theme in Kotor 1 (Maanam providing kolto for both factions, recruits applying into the Jedi Academy on Dantooine or Sith Academy on Korriban etc).

Yeah, they did use it already, on one planet out of millions in the galaxy.

Are you guys sure you're star wars fans?

Logic: If you don't like everything in Star Wars, you cannot be a fan. Read one of the Karen Traviss books, or the Dark Empire series, or the LOTF series, and you may change your mind.

[Weiser_Cain]

Logic: if you've only just noticed star wars is full of iterations you may not be a fan or you weren't paying attention.
Addendum: Screw Obsidian.

[Sharen Thrawn]

Originally Posted by TKA-001

What plans?

Their plans for Kotor3 plot.

Originally Posted by TKA-001

So you're saying that it's a ripoff of the OT just because there's a guy whose title is "Emperor"? That's preposterous.

News-flash: the word "emperor" has existed for thousands of years, so by your logic, the fact that Palpatine's title was "Emperor" is unoriginal, too.

The problem is that is not some random guy/ruler of a random planet using the title. He's a Sith Lord, fighting with The Republic and ruling a galactic Empire. And of course, he's an über evil main villian. Sounds familiar? The intentions behind naming this Sith lord an Emperor are clear IMO.

Originally Posted by TKA-001

Yeah, they did use it already, on one planet out of millions in the galaxy.

Now they're gonna copy and paste this concept onto every planet in the MMO. Epic!

[teodesetkata]

In my opinion, I think that the best possible MMO that can be made out of Star Wars would be a non-canon to the storyline one. Imagine just the universe, and you would be some kind of freelancer in it, and have a job, like bounty hunter, entertainer, diplomat, Czerka Corporation employee and such, and not being necessarily Jedi or Sith, part of the Republic or the Sith Empire, just, as Jango Fett says in the movies, "I'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe.", or something like that. The idea of just Sith and Jedi fighting in a MMO sounds pretty dumb and uninteresting to me - I hope there'll be professions and such, and freelance exploring and doing interesting story-driven quests. I hope it'll be like that, not just simple killing.

But, the possibility of joining a Jedi/Sith academy and learning the ways of the Force shouldn't be left out, either. But being Jedi/Sith shouldn't have an effect on the jobs you do to make your living. As far as I could tell by reading the description of the SW MMO, it states that "choose to be a Jedi or Sith". I don't think there'll be much variety in it.

And also, the events in the galaxy that would be determined by other players, should have an effect on the galaxy itself. Just like in KotOR, poisoning the kolto -> the price for the medpacks raises. And, during the Jedi/Sith war, there would be different things to do in a specific planet determined if it is either controlled by the Sith or the Jedi. Important thing that it shouldn't be left out is the fact that there should be different organisations than the Sith and the Jedi - like the Exchange and Pirate organisations, such as the Hutts.

[adamqd]

What is it with people's need to be just another brick in the wall?? I play Games to be the Hero, kick ass across the Galaxy... I can be a non-canon Bar man or a Clothes maker in Real Life lol, less knittin more Kickin!!

[GwannaSauna]

Change of thought: KotOR V: Getting Somewhere... (32 BBY-0 BBY) would be great. It would be like this: KotOR-ish (improved ) with different times in the Prequel Trilogy! Prologue... (32 BBY), Invasion of Naboo + Epic duel w/ Darth Maul (32 BBY) Giant gap (32 BBY-22 BBY), Clone Wars beginning (22 BBY), Getting Somewhere... (19 BBY), Great Jedi Purge (19 BBY), Vader's Apprentice (??? BBY-2 BBY), Battle of Yavin (0 BBY) and you get to choose which one you want to choose! You can save the game at any part at any time and switch to a new one (for example: If you got bored of the Invasion of Naboo sequence, you could save there and (from the main menu) switch over to another part!) Good idea?


Sorry, I'll get back on topic...

[teodesetkata]

LOL, I never said that it shouldn't be left out. Of course, battling is an important factor in the game, but I hope that there'll be professions. Bounty Hunting, for example, would be very interesting, assassinating targets without being seen.

[Yatsookey]

so sad i wanted to see what happened to revan
hmmm and prime my guess is there will be a section in the game with either history and lore or maybe they will be mentioned by the umm trainers if there will be any

[Darth_Yuthura]

Originally Posted by GwannaSauna

Change of thought: KotOR V: Getting Somewhere... (32 BBY-0 BBY) would be great. It would be like this: KotOR-ish (improved ) with different times in the Prequel Trilogy! Prologue... (32 BBY), Invasion of Naboo + Epic duel w/ Darth Maul (32 BBY) Giant gap (32 BBY-22 BBY), Clone Wars beginning (22 BBY), Getting Somewhere... (19 BBY), Great Jedi Purge (19 BBY), Vader's Apprentice (??? BBY-2 BBY), Battle of Yavin (0 BBY) and you get to choose which one you want to choose! You can save the game at any part at any time and switch to a new one (for example: If you got bored of the Invasion of Naboo sequence, you could save there and (from the main menu) switch over to another part!) Good idea?


Sorry, I'll get back on topic...

That's not entirely accurate. TFU created an entirely new story with a new character, but just as easily done something completely different. The 300 year gap had already carved certain things in stone. I wanted to see Revan and the Exile end their stories in triumph, but now they never return. There is little room for a KOTOR III that doesn't involve changing the story, or it would would detract from all the KOTOR storylines.

[Tommycat]

Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura

That's not entirely accurate. TFU created an entirely new story with a new character, but just as easily done something completely different. The 300 year gap had already carved certain things in stone. I wanted to see Revan and the Exile end their stories in triumph, but now they never return. There is little room for a KOTOR III that doesn't involve changing the story, or it would would detract from all the KOTOR storylines.

Their fate was sealed long before the MMO. When Obsidian started making gods of them. What did you expect to happen. Two Jedi go into True Sith territory. I don't care how much of a tough guy you are, you go into Bloods territory with Crips colors, and expect to come out victorious?

[Darth_Yuthura]

That's what the cliffhanger was all about. I was expecting something so clever or so miraculous, but instead got something that was a cheap means to an end. They didn't even have an ending like the last stand of the 1300 Spartans and Thespians at Thermopolea. The disappointment didn't come from Obsidian, but from whoever decided to kill the cliffhanger because they couldn't come up with a dramatic ending.

[Astor]

Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura

That's what the cliffhanger was all about. I was expecting something so clever or so miraculous, but instead got something that was a cheap means to an end.

I'm disappointed too, but it seems you've let your expectations get the better of you - and there was never any promise of a KOTOR III, aside from the rumor mongering that circulated about once every six months.

They didn't even have an ending like the last stand of the 1300 Spartans and Thespians at Thermopolea.

That would've sucked pretty badly - and we'd still be hearing the screams for blood from the Revan fanboys even if that were the case.

Also, it would have been reinforcing the godliness that Obsidian put into TSL - and that's something I, for one, can do without.

The disappointment didn't come from Obsidian, but from whoever decided to kill the cliffhanger because they couldn't come up with a dramatic ending.

I've been thinking about this for a while, and there's not really a cliff-hanger at all when you look at it. Each of the two KOTOR games is pretty much self-contained. TSL wasn't that much of a sequel as it was a completely separate game, with Revan occasionally mentioned to create some semblance of a connection.