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Old 02-17-2009, 11:19 AM   #121
Yar-El
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Originally Posted by Astor Kaine View Post
So you assumed that your posts weren't welcome. It's entirely possible your recommendation was rejected, and removed to keep the thread clear.
Oh yeah. I made an assumption. Sure. It doesn't mean I made the right one; however, I did draw a conclusion from how I felt at the moment. I felt my opinion was rejected. I'm not a robot.
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Old 02-17-2009, 11:20 AM   #122
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I can see where Yar-El is coming from. One of the points I argued with the other mods awhile ago is that deleting posts may seem fine with us, but different members are going to react badly to it in different ways, some won't care, but others aren't going to understand the reasoning behind it.

That said, no, the posts in that thread weren't deleted for the reasons you think they were.



Also...


LOL @ Niner posting his own picture XD

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Old 02-17-2009, 11:26 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Lynk Former View Post
I can see where Yar-El is coming from. One of the points I argued with the other mods awhile ago is that deleting posts may seem fine with us, but different members are going to react badly to it in different ways, some won't care, but others aren't going to understand the reasoning behind it.

That said, no, the posts in that thread weren't deleted for the reasons you think they were.

Also...

LOL @ Niner posting his own picture XD
I agree. On both counts. Moderators and admins may have extremely good reasons to delete posts; however, we all respond to actions emotionally. It gets in the way of rational reasoning, and people are driven into thinking the opposite of what is being conveyed. We end up ignoring moderator and admin posts. Why? We took offense. We then become enraged and emotional, and then the can of worms explodes.
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Old 02-17-2009, 11:26 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
Oh yeah. I made an assumption. Sure. It doesn't mean I made the right one; however, I did draw a conclusion from how I felt at the moment. I felt my opinion was rejected. I'm not a robot.
I can understand your frustration, but I can also understand where the staff are coming from, especially with such a thread.

But, they maybe should have given explanations as to why recommendations were rejected, or posts deleted.






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Old 02-17-2009, 11:28 AM   #125
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I can understand your frustration, but I can also understand where the staff are coming from, especially with such a thread.

But, they maybe should have given explanations as to why recommendations were rejected, or posts deleted.
Transparancy on an individual level? How many people visit these forums? Is it possible?
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Old 02-17-2009, 11:49 AM   #126
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For the record, I answered your badge request.




have a suggestion for the lf poll? pm me
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Old 02-17-2009, 11:52 AM   #127
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For the record, I have updated the requirements for getting the Jester badge back to the way I originally planned it.

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=195680

The staff no longer have any say in who does and doesn't get the Jester badge, it's all up to the members themselves. All a staff member will do is carry out the request.

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Old 02-17-2009, 11:53 AM   #128
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For the record, I answered your badge request.
Thank you.
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Old 02-17-2009, 11:58 AM   #129
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I would just like everyone to know that the irony of the above post is not lost on me.

And Achilles was banned because he decided to use a sledgehammer in dealing with this very issue. The posts concerning that occurence were, of course, conveniently deleted as well.
The Achilles posts are deleted because they violated the rules. Provided a complaint from any member - not necessarily a staff member, as was the case here - they would have likewise been deleted. They are still accessible by staff for the purpose of record, but if you missed them, then you just weren't fast enough.

As for our objectivity, Achilles was not banned by the staff member he targeted. There was a post made in our staff forum and a third party administrator had a look at it. Then there was some back and forth and that administrator reached out to another admin and myself (who is definitely not involved in anything any more) to make sure everything was on the level. This is far more than any other forum would have done.


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Old 02-17-2009, 12:19 PM   #130
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If you really don't like DI that much you can always put him on your ignore list with whoever else you feel you don't want to have to deal with. I can understand being sick and tired of other peoples asshattery, I really can.
I believe that DI has more of a problem with me than I will ever have with him.
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...on the subject of immaturity, I'm guilty as charged... and I can safely say that I can be even more immature than any of the suspect elitists too.
I'm as guilty as anyone in this regard, but I do try to recognize that there are times and places for such behavior, and that the decision-making process when determining and enforcing forum policy is not one of them.

While I'm happy to point out that the majority of the staff is more than capable of making this distinction, it has come to my attention over the past several months that a small number of them are not, and that they are aware of this to the extent that they feel the need to cover their tracks, and each other's tracks as well, but at the same time they don't seem to recognize the need to alter their behavior.

I can describe this behavior with one word: hypocrisy, and I believe that it is far more guilty of "spoiling teh funz" on this forum than all of my bitching about it could ever be.

While I know that it can never be eliminated, I believe that if I succeed in bringing it to the attention of some of those who were previously unaware of it, then this whole sordid affair has at least served some constructive purpose.
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Now I wish I was, it's more interesting being the troublemaker
I can relate to that; obviously.

@matt--: I am in no way excusing or trying to justify Achilles' actions. Tactics like those he used have a tendency to undermine the effectiveness of one's argument despite its validity, which is why I'm trying a different approach: one that doesn't break the rules.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
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Old 02-17-2009, 12:37 PM   #131
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I believe that DI has more of a problem with me than I will ever have with him.
Either way, it's a solution you should consider.


Quote:
I'm as guilty as anyone in this regard, but I do try to recognize that there are times and places for such behavior, and that the decision-making process when determining and enforcing forum policy is not one of them.
Agreed.


Quote:
While I'm happy to point out that the majority of the staff is more than capable of making this distinction, it has come to my attention over the past several months that a small number of them are not, and that they are aware of this to the extent that they feel the need to cover their tracks, and each other's tracks as well, but at the same time they don't seem to recognize the need to alter their behavior.

I can describe this behavior with one word: hypocrisy, and I believe that it is far more guilty of "spoiling teh funz" on this forum than all of my bitching about it could ever be.

While I know that it can never be eliminated, I believe that if I succeed in bringing it to the attention of some of those who were previously unaware of it, then this whole sordid affair has at least served some constructive purpose.
"Don't you worry about Planet Express, let me worry about blank"

As stated before, the staff isn't one unified group who all agree with each other about everything... man, it'd be SO much easier if it was! We often debate and argue about a lot of things and most of the time we don't agree about a lot of things. I know all of the staff, at least on the Star Wars side of the forum so I know more about what goes on with the people you're mentioning than you do. If you think that certain staff simply gets away with certain things they may or may not have done?... I'm going to say right now. You are wrong.

Yes, there needs to be a level of accountability for the staff's actions. But also, yes, the entire forum staff is aware that certain members feel that certain staff are complete hypocrites and despite what you and others may think, it's not ignored.

Right now you're not exactly telling us anything new. That said, we have heard your concerns...

Got any solutions?

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Old 02-17-2009, 12:41 PM   #132
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Got any solutions?
I heard Keelhauling being thrown around in the other thread...


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Old 02-17-2009, 01:12 PM   #133
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Yes, there needs to be a level of accountability for the staff's actions. But also, yes, the entire forum staff is aware that certain members feel that certain staff are complete hypocrites and despite what you and others may think, it's not ignored.
That is very reassuring to know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynk Former
Right now you're not exactly telling us anything new. That said, we have heard your concerns...

Got any solutions?
Of course I have a solution. One that is very simple in concept and yet would be very difficult to implement in practice.

The offender(s) should be openly identified by their peers in the staff and warned that if their hypocritical enforcement of forum policy continues, their status and privileges will be revoked, and, most importantly, to actually follow through on the threat if one of them decides to put the rest of you to the test by ignoring the warning and continuing on their merry, hypocritical way. It would be even better if one of the offenders actually did defy the rest of you and was consequently demoted because that person would serve as a public example to everyone here that members of the staff are not untouchable.

I believe that, as long as it is genuine, the mere (but real) threat of such a public humiliation would be enough to solve the problem, given that appearances are all-important to a certain personality type, a type that has been freely exhibited by those to whom I am alluding.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
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Old 02-17-2009, 01:17 PM   #134
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So in other words you want us to continue what we're doing now pretty much?

Did I mention that the staff don't always agree on issues and that it'd be much easier if we did? Like you said, it's a very difficult thing to put into practice... and in reality, it's a nightmare in the staff forums when it does go down.

However, the one thing we don't practice is public humiliation... it would be hypocritical to take such action because from what has been suggested, that is exactly what certain staff members have been doing in the first place.

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Old 02-17-2009, 01:24 PM   #135
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However, the one thing we don't practice is public humiliation... it would be hypocritical to take such action because from what has been suggested, that is exactly what certain staff members have been doing in the first place.
I think that you misunderstand me. I wasn't suggesting that a public show be made of any demotion. I was merely acknowledging the fact that the effects of said demotion would be very public, indeed, without anything at all being said about it.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
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Old 02-17-2009, 01:37 PM   #136
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Ah okay... though it's not like we haven't let go of staff before. Actions have been taken but it would be inappropriate to give any information about such things. We do take things very seriously when it happens.

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Old 02-17-2009, 01:40 PM   #137
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Sorry, it had to be done.
QFT.

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Old 02-17-2009, 05:25 PM   #138
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~picture snip~ cause it's right above... duh

Sorry, it had to be done.
Thread complete, but continue with the back and forth anyway, it's getting good.


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Old 02-17-2009, 05:29 PM   #139
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I know of three people on that list who should have been banned, and I know who comes to their defence on a daily basis.
You seem to be disagreeing with yourself here. Is there favoritism or not? Also, if you have some sort of evidence that I or any other member should be banned, speak it, and cite it, or don't bring it it up again.
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I walked away from the thread at that point. I took the deletion as your post was not good enough. I walked away with thinking my posts were not welcomed in there; thus, I glossed over Jae's reasoning behind the deletion. Why bother nominating anyone if it doesn't mater?
Baw. You got your nomination fulfilled. Why is it our problem if you choose to gloss over Jae's reasoning?
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I keep saying this to everyone. Kick people around, large amounts of people walk away, and you no longer have any forums. This goes for moderators, admins, myself, and other forumites.
Actually not true. But if you want to leave and see how it works, be my guest.

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I agree. On both counts. Moderators and admins may have extremely good reasons to delete posts; however, we all respond to actions emotionally. It gets in the way of rational reasoning, and people are driven into thinking the opposite of what is being conveyed. We end up ignoring moderator and admin posts. Why? We took offense. We then become enraged and emotional, and then the can of worms explodes.
You took offense? Sorry. Not the staff's problem.

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Old 02-17-2009, 05:30 PM   #140
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@ mav187: Interesting fact: The Internet Serious Business image Niner posted... that is him. Niner IS the Internet Serious Business guy.

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Old 02-17-2009, 05:53 PM   #141
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@ mav187: Interesting fact: The Internet Serious Business image Niner posted... that is him. Niner IS the Internet Serious Business guy.
Well that would just confirm my suspicion that Niner was some sort of internet God...


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Old 02-17-2009, 05:57 PM   #142
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This thread is made of both win and failure. Therefore, let it be hereby transcribed in the Book of LucasForums that on this day, the Internet was decreed to hold SERIOUS BUSINESS.

Also, who was branded as an elitist snob, precisely?
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Old 02-17-2009, 05:59 PM   #143
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For the record, I answered your badge request.
I hate to do this to you, but where was the response? I can't find your response in the associated thread, nor can I find the forumite's name with the related badge.
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Old 02-17-2009, 06:00 PM   #144
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This thread is made of both win and failure. Therefore, let it be hereby transcribed in the Book of LucasForums that on this day, the Internet was decreed to hold SERIOUS BUSINESS.

Also, who was branded as an elitist snob, precisely?
Everyone on the list, Kat-Mandu, leader of the Monster Raving Party, and Bill O'Reilly, apparently.






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Old 02-17-2009, 06:06 PM   #145
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I hate to do this to you, but where was the response? I can't find your response in the associated thread, nor can I find the forumite's name with the related badge.
Since you seemed to have missed my post after Niners... we've updated the requirements. Read the opening post for the details and resubmit your recommendation.

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Old 02-17-2009, 06:15 PM   #146
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Thanks for clearing that up Lynk Former. I have things in motion now.
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Old 02-17-2009, 06:16 PM   #147
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People seem to forget that things take time.

Q: Where'd my badge request go?
Assumption: The staff hates me and deleted my posts
Real Answer: The staff deleted the post in the process of trimming the fat of the thread (which was specified in the rules of the thread early on) and the badge is in the process of being awarded.

Q: Why don't the staff enforce all the rules to the letter?
Assumption: The staff members are bad, negligent hypocrites who should never run for public office.
Real anwser: This is an Internet forum FFS. Our global economy isn't going to collapse because the moderators let slide some amount of good-natured, fun spamming. Also, our staff members should probably never run for public office.


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Old 02-17-2009, 06:22 PM   #148
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XD I love you Kjo.

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Old 02-17-2009, 07:57 PM   #149
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People seem to forget that things take time.

Q: Where'd my badge request go?
Assumption: The staff hates me and deleted my posts
Real Answer: The staff deleted the post in the process of trimming the fat of the thread (which was specified in the rules of the thread early on) and the badge is in the process of being awarded.

Q: Why don't the staff enforce all the rules to the letter?
Assumption: The staff members are bad, negligent hypocrites who should never run for public office.
Real anwser: This is an Internet forum FFS. Our global economy isn't going to collapse because the moderators let slide some amount of good-natured, fun spamming. Also, our staff members should probably never run for public office.
I wish that you were right, Kojo, I really do.

But in my case this has gone on for about eight months now, not just the past couple of days, and has happened too often to myself and others (besides Adavardes) to be a mere coincidence. It's happened in places on this forum where you don't roam, so you wouldn't know first-hand, but this isn't just an isolated incident. I haven't said anything about it until now because I find the concept of ratting distasteful. I've never even reported on anybody, even when I've certain people's posts extremely offensive. I don't like ratting.

And I'm certainly not generalizing by stating or inferring that it's all of the staff, or even most of the staff. AFAIK it's actually just a small part of the staff.

Lynk has stated earlier in this thread that he is aware of it, as are other members of the staff, and that I'm not the first one to complain about it, so maybe something will be done about it.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
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Old 02-17-2009, 08:15 PM   #150
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And I'm certainly not generalizing by stating or inferring that it's all of the staff, or even most of the staff. AFAIK it's actually just a small part of the staff.
Who?

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Old 02-17-2009, 08:33 PM   #151
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Haha.

Nope.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
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Old 02-17-2009, 08:37 PM   #152
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Haha.

Nope.
So, let me piece together what you've told us. You believe there are injustices in the forums caused by ambiguously mentioned members and allowed by staff members that you will not specify?

So, what exactly can we do?


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Old 02-17-2009, 08:41 PM   #153
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Oh, so no one. That's good then.

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Old 02-17-2009, 08:43 PM   #154
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Qliveur knows its a trap, and I wouldn't pubicly name names in his shoes either.
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Old 02-17-2009, 08:50 PM   #155
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I'll name names. Niner plots to ban people to cover his tracks, Lynk participates in immodest amounts of spamfesting, ZeroXcape retains an admin position despite never posting and visiting once a year or less, Jed simply doesn't exist anymore, Jae likes to censor an unholy amount of data, and Aristotle works in the background like a New World Order conspirator.

See? Did I earn animosity from out staff because of this? Probably. Meh.


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―Kjølen

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Old 02-17-2009, 08:50 PM   #156
Lynk Former
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
Qliveur knows its a trap, and I wouldn't pubicly name names in his shoes either.
What could we possibly do to him? Do you think that if the staff members are named they'll all gang up on him? I wouldn't allow that to happen in the first place.

The problem is that people are tiptoeing around. You want action? Let's see some names so that we can have confirmation and get something done.

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Old 02-17-2009, 08:58 PM   #157
Det. Bart Lasiter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjølen View Post
I'll name names. Niner plots to ban people to cover his tracks, Lynk participates in immodest amounts of spamfesting, ZeroXcape retains an admin position despite never posting and visiting once a year or less, Jed simply doesn't exist anymore, Jae likes to censor an unholy amount of data, and Aristotle works in the background like a New World Order conspirator.

See? Did I earn animosity from out staff because of this? Probably. Meh.
That's just a smokescreen like how the NSA let itself get caught wiretapping people to cover up the Illuminati pulling the strings.



"No, Mama. You can bet your sweet ass and half a titty whoever put that hit on you already got the cops in their back pocket." ~Black Dynamite
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Old 02-17-2009, 09:14 PM   #158
Yar-El
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynk Former View Post
What could we possibly do to him? Do you think that if the staff members are named they'll all gang up on him? I wouldn't allow that to happen in the first place.

The problem is that people are tiptoeing around. You want action? Let's see some names so that we can have confirmation and get something done.
Pubicly humiliate him by gaining up on him. Its also not very adult. You want to discredit him in public, so others can jump in and hammer on him. Look at the last few posts. Its already happened.
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Old 02-17-2009, 09:26 PM   #159
Q
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
Pubicly humiliate him by gaining up on him. Its also not very adult. You want to discredit him in public, so others can jump in and hammer on him. Look at the last few posts. Its already happened.
Yup.

And thanks a lot, D3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynk Former
What could we possibly do to him? Do you think that if the staff members are named they'll all gang up on him? I wouldn't allow that to happen in the first place.

The problem is that people are tiptoeing around. You want action? Let's see some names so that we can have confirmation and get something done.
Do you really mean that? I have your word?


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
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Old 02-17-2009, 09:32 PM   #160
Darth333
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Jeez! T I apologize and deleted the post. I thought it would help relieve the atmosphere. Why do people always have to assume bad faith? Trust me, the mods are working hard on this and we do really want to make this a positive experience and not just for a few members. Lighten up (and that applies to all, even the staff)!

(btw, if you must know, I have already proposed your name before reading this thread. I am currently reviewing the swk and a few other forums I frequent in a general way too for other potential candidates...).
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