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Old 12-30-2009, 07:52 PM   #1
Te Darasuum Mandalor
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History of the sith: Very Interesting

Ok, I was on wookipedia and it states that there were multiple sith Empires/kingdoms and here is my understanding of them. I'm being a bad boy. I've been looking inside sith holocrons! I personaly find the history of the sith more interesting than that of the Jedi.


Infinate Empire 30,000 BBY: (not really a sith empire but they were the first true wielders of the dark side) The first organized empire in the galaxy. The Rakata ruled over 4000 Star Systems through brutality. It is said that they built the star forge and then died out mysteriously loosing all knowllege of the force. The last planet that was under their command not counting Lehon was Tython where the Jedi discovered the force several millenia later.


Kingdom of Korriban 10,000 BBY: (1st dynasty) Ruled by several force sensitive Kings and queens on the planet of Korriban. They ruled for generations with no knowllege of the force itself, but they were filled with the Darkside without knowing. Even though they weren't Sith Lords, they were Sith by species.


First Kingdom of the Sith 7,000 BBY: (2nd dynasty) After disobeying the council, several hundered Jedi were Exiled and stumbled upon the world of Korriban, where they were greeted by the sith kingom as the magic gods who would return. Out of this, the Dark Jedi beame the Lords of the Sith of korriban and gradually began annexing the system under Sith command. Two notable rulers of the first sith kingdom are Freedon Nadd and Tulak Hord. This were the first sith to use short lightsabers as well as traditional swords.


The 1st Sith Empire 5,000 BBY: The first kingdom of the Sith eventually conquered other planets such as Ziost, Malachor, and Raxus Prime creating a large Sith Empire ruled through brutality and fear. They challenged the republic many times and were victorious. It seemed as long as these Sith inhabited known space, they would be victorious. Then came civil war. The two friends Naga Saddow and Ludo Kressh became the next rulers of the Sith but then both wished for absolute control. Ludo Kressh betrayed his master and launched civil war upon the Empire. After Naga Saddow taught Ludo a lesson, he launched a campaign on the republic and the Jedi only to be defeated. Humiliated that his Empire could be defeated by the "corrupt" jedi, Saddow retreated to Yavin 4 where it is said he died. Though some say he left to go build an army in the outer regions. Several well known rulers are Ludo kressh, Naga Saddow, and Freedon Nadd.


The Exar Kun Sith movement 4,000 BBY: The Jedi Master Exar Kun believed that the council was corrupt, so he and his padawan's began very peacefully teaching of the council's corruption, he lost favor with the council and was branded Gray Jedi. Exar Kun kept preaching and then he was officialy exiled from the order. He moved to Ziost where he thought to himself "No more Mr. Nice Guy!" He created a sort of Sith Movement and declared war on the Jedi. He lost though and was killed in the process. Exar Kun is the only ruler of this movement.


The New Sith Empire 3,970 BBY: After the Mandalorian Wars, the Revanchist returned to Dantooine with his friend Alek where they stmbled upon an ancient temple where they found a Star Map. They were told where to find this map by the remnents of the first Sith Empire in the outer regions. They were told to serve as a Vanguard for them. This Star Map led to many more where they found the Star Forge, a Rakatan war devise they built an Empire out of. They built an Entire Armada and using the troops and Dark Jedi given to them by the Sith Emperor, they corrupted many republic soldiers and eventually the Jedi. The first to join were the remnent forces from Exar Kun and Revan's old Master, Darth Traya and her two apprentices Nihilus and Lucien Draay AKA Darth Sion. The three however believed that Revan was ruling his "Empire" in a different manner than the Emperor wished, so she broke away and formed the Sith Triumverite and captured Malachor from Revan. Revan was however defeated by his master and the Jedi and was captured. The Empire finally fell however when Revan attacked the Star Forge, Malak's last place of refuge and destroyed it along with him. Revan went into the outer regions to try and stop the True Sith. The two rulers, of course, are Darth Revan and Darth Malak.


Sith Triumverite 3,960 BBY: Darth Traya, Lord of Betrayal and her Apprentice Nihilus and Sion fled to Malachor to await Revan's demise. After his empire fell, Traya assumed command of the remaining forces and fled to Malachor and eventually divided her troops evenly between Malachor, Koriban, Ziost, and Dxun. Darth Traya was betrayed by her apprentices but eventually returned. It fell however, first Nihilus, then Sion, then finally Traya herself. The three leaders were Traya, Sion, and Nihilus.


The Sith Vanguard 3,956 BBY: After the fall of the Sith Triumverite, the last cult of Revan, The Sith Emperor felt he needed a new plan, a small Sith Vanguard led by his Apprentice, a human named Darth Traumat and his shaddow hand, a black twilek named Darth Kahim. The two descreatly ravaged and pillaged republic systems on the outer rim but were eventually stopped, first Darth Kahim, then Traumat. Another plan from the Sith Emperor had failed.


The Great Sith Empire 3,650 BBY: After his two previous plans had failed, the Sith Emperor was delayed about three centuries for his invasion, 300 years after the defeat of Darth Malak, the True Sith came out from Hiding. Their first objective was, they wanted to be found. An endless armada of Sith Inderdictor Star Destroyers and Centurion class battlecruisers sent several shuttles to corusaunt and sack the temple. After that, they retook many planets they lost in the previous wars. The Emperor was finaly victorious. The Sith Emperor ruled this empire.


The Brotherhood of Darkness 1000 BBY: About two thousand years after the great Sith Empire, the Emperor vowed to return again, and gave command of his Empire to a trustworthy Dark Lord. He formed, The Brotherhood of Darkess, a Sith Movement which all Sith were soldiers, it was tyrany. Over the years, however, it had become corrupt, especialy under the leadership of Lord Kaan. He ordered countless and meaningless battles on Ruusan and Bothawui. Kaan was eventually destroyed in the Thought Bomb which destroyed all force sensitives. The Brotherhood was destroyed. Two notable members were Darth Kaan and Darth Quordois.


Rule of Two 100 BBY: Darth Bane established the rule of two after the brotherhood of Darkness was destroyed. He made Zannah his apprentice and destroyed the remnents of the Brotherhood. "Two Sith There Shall Be, no more, no less. One to behold the power and the other to Crave it." That became the motto of the Sith Rule of Two up until the final battle on the Death star over Endor. Many Sith held the titles of Master And Apprentice and many were mere pretenders to the title. There were only several true Dark Lords. The most famous of these were Darth Bane, Darth Rane (Zannah), Darth Plaguis, Darth Sideous, Darth Tyrranus, and Darth Vader (Skywalker). The Galactic Empire was born as well which combined the Republic and the Sith in one mighty Empire.

Rule of One: Their was a time when two Sith ruled, but then Darth Krayt, the Last True Dark Lord arrived. he was said to be the last of the True Sith. He had no need of any apprentice, and he formed a mighty Empire out of Imperial Remnent. He was killed however, as the prophessy says. And with him, the last true Sith. The Galaxy was at last free from the Sith's treachury. Darth Krayt was the only Sith Ruler in the Rule of One.



Who finds these "Holocrons" interesting?
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Old 12-30-2009, 08:22 PM   #2
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Oh man, you left out probably the most important part of all: when the Dark Jedi were exiled from Republic space in 6900 BBY, came upon Korriban and Ziost, conquered the Sith species, intermingled with them, and adopted their name. It was the birth of the Sith Order itself!

Otherwise, yeah, that's all pretty interesting stuff. I didn't read your entire post but you're pretty spot-on there.

Also, no idea what this has to do with KOTOR 3, but cool nonetheless.



[Edit] Okay, you did, in fact, include the founding of the Sith Order by the Exiles. No idea how I missed that! Anyways, carry on.


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Old 01-08-2010, 06:35 PM   #3
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Can anyone else think of any kind of sith kingdom other than the ones I listed?
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Old 01-09-2010, 12:15 AM   #4
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What about the Daragon siblings' travel that was the catalyst for the first ever manipulation by sith on the galaxy? Their travels made ripples of consequence through reality and making things of consequence that still effect things long after the death of Vader and Palpatine.

I appreciate the enthusiasm, but not much gets by this group. Keep trying though.


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Old 01-09-2010, 12:13 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrcharlton View Post
Can anyone else think of any kind of sith kingdom other than the ones I listed?
Well, I didn't see the Lost Tribe of the Sith, so yeah, there you go.


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Old 01-09-2010, 06:07 PM   #6
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1. Lucien Draay was not Darth Sion.

2. Darth Zannah, not Darth Rane or Rain. Rain was her name.


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Old 01-09-2010, 06:58 PM   #7
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Its just speculation, he may be, he may not be. It hasn't been proven yet but hasn't been denied by whoever makes stuff canon
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Old 01-09-2010, 09:59 PM   #8
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Ok, I was on wookipedia
Which is fine, but do note that from time to time the articles change and there are major fights over interpretations of one thing or another. What you see at one point in time may be reported quite differently at another time. This requires checking and at points verifying for yourself.

For Example: Depa Billiba's mastery of Vaapad and at what point she turned to the dark side. It has been written on the pages:
"Depa and Bulq didn't master vaapad, it mastered them" as though it were a fact that she turned *before* mastery just like sora bulq. This is merely one point of view because in the novel Shatterpoint where this is dealt with specifically, it is not definitively clear whether she was corrupted *before* her mastery display and it took awhile for it to manifest, or if the horrors of war drove her mad on Haruun Kal *after* her mastery. This all from Mace Windu's POV, who created the form and was Billiba's master. He was close to her like a father would be to a daughter.

So whoever wrote that on the wiki page is subjectively doing so.

Just as a caution of what kind of poisoning your source potentially suffers from.

Quote:
Infinate Empire 30,000 BBY: (not really a sith empire but they were the first true wielders of the dark side) The first organized empire in the galaxy. The Rakata ruled over 4000 Star Systems through brutality. It is said that they built the star forge and then died out mysteriously loosing all knowllege of the force. The last planet that was under their command not counting Lehon was Tython where the Jedi discovered the force several millenia later.
Considering this was a (relative term) hair under 30,000 years before Revan found out about it, while we can safely say it was before the founding of the galactic republic, we don't know that the Rakatans were definitively the first wielders of the dark side and the force.

Besides, planet Tython was where the force philosophers first came from. It is possible that the rakatans coincided this all alongside the events unfolding on Tython, all before the galactic republic. I'm a little rusty but I'm pretty sure the Rakatans are not the first, or at least it isn't a definitive thing, yet.


I'm going to let others deal with other stuff as they feel like it. I'm going to just choose what I know best and refute, correct, or verify. Nothing to be ashamed of if you are wrong about something, though. All in good fun.

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The Exar Kun Sith movement 4,000 BBY: The Jedi Master Exar Kun believed that the council was corrupt, so he and his padawan's began very peacefully teaching of the council's corruption, he lost favor with the council and was branded Gray Jedi. Exar Kun kept preaching and then he was officialy exiled from the order. He moved to Ziost where he thought to himself "No more Mr. Nice Guy!" He created a sort of Sith Movement and declared war on the Jedi. He lost though and was killed in the process. Exar Kun is the only ruler of this movement.
Well, not quite. For simplicity sake let's just use your source wikipedia.

Kun kept inquiring about forbidden knowledge of sith magics against the advisements of the jedi masters. Eventually his unusual interest lead him to search out Sith Relics.

His adventures, long and the short of it, corrupted him and he grew to resent the Jedi. He turned to the dark side. Stealing dark side artifacts also from the jedi, he drew other Jedi Knights to his cause with their (Sith Artifacts') power and built his own empire. This became a revolt or movement of sorts where he attempted to destablize the Jedi Order and its leadership. His friend Ulic Qel Droma turned with him all the while but was not as comitted in the end. Qel Droma ended up submitting tothe Jedi for his punishment, execution, which was to be carried out on Coruscant. Kun, having invented and built his double bladed lightsaber was unaware of his friend's wavering stance, and showed up to rescue Qel Droma during the trial and set him free. Kun killed his old master and the supreme chancellor and basically went on to wreak havoc.

Retreating to Yavin 4 after pillaging as much jedi lore as possible, Kun was unaware that Qel Droma had betrayed him and lead the Jedi back to his place. Kun's last stand, the sith lord used ancient force techniques he did not understand. He separated his spiritual self from his body to avoid capture, however Nomi Sunrider initiated a wall of light to trap him at his temple, ideally forever. Unfortunately the power of that would also devastate the landscape of Yavin 4. Thousands of years later, let's just say some foolhardy people were dinking around where they shouldn't have been. Kun's spirit wreaked havoc and sought to corrupt the Jedi Paraxaeum. Enevtually the spirit tried to possess Luke Skywalker, but was foiled and destroyed by the combined power of the students. Luke was saved.

<snip>

Quote:

The Brotherhood of Darkness 1000 BBY: About two thousand years after the great Sith Empire, the Emperor vowed to return again, and gave command of his Empire to a trustworthy Dark Lord.
He formed, The Brotherhood of Darkess, a Sith Movement which all Sith were soldiers, it was tyrany. Over the years, however, it had become corrupt, especialy under the leadership of Lord Kaan. He ordered countless and meaningless battles on Ruusan and Bothawui. Kaan was eventually destroyed in the Thought Bomb which destroyed all force sensitives. The Brotherhood was destroyed. Two notable members were Darth Kaan and Darth Quordois.
Uhh, not exactly. Brotherhood of Darkness was actually prior to 1000BBY.
I have the trilogy of the Darth Bane books. Refuting the latter of your statements: There was no "Darth" used in the brotherhood of darkness--they had done away with it. It was "Dark Lord" as a master's title because Darth was too obvious. It was under the idea that all are equals in the brotherhood. It was Dark Lords Kaan and Qordis, NOT Darth. The Brotherhood arose out of the deteriorating remnants of Darth Ruin's long reigning empire.

From:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Brotherhood_of_Darkness

Quote:
For nearly a thousand years, the Sith had been organized into the New Sith Empire of Darth Ruin. They had waged a centuries-long war against the Jedi and the Galactic Republic, nearly toppling both. However, as the Jedi began a counterattack, the Sith fell to infighting, their empire near collapse.

Eventually, from amongst the feuding marauders, a charismatic Sith named Lord Kaan arose. Sometime between 1,010 and 1,006 BBY he defeated all of his enemies, took the title of Dark Lord of the Sith, and reunited the Sith into the Brotherhood, with himself as supreme leader. To appease several ambitious rivals Qordis and Kopecz being the most powerful Kaan declared that "All are equal in the Brotherhood of Darkness", and granted the previously unique title of Dark Lord of the Sith to dozens of the highest ranked Sith. In exchange, the other Dark Lords agreed to continue to recognize him as leader. With the creed of "Rule by the Strong", Kaan and his followers set about to topple the Jedi and the Republic and create a dark side dictatorship.
Quote:
Rule of Two 100 BBY:

1000 BBY, nice try though.

Quote:
Darth Bane established the rule of two after the brotherhood of Darkness was destroyed. He made Zannah his apprentice and destroyed the remnents of the Brotherhood. "Two Sith There Shall Be, no more, no less. One to behold the power and the other to Crave it." That became the motto of the Sith Rule of Two up until the final battle on the Death star over Endor.
Uhh, more or less. But do you know *why* Bane made it rule of two?
(Hint: If you read the passages I quoted above the answer is implied in a single word as it was the reason the brotherhood was created in the first place and ironically also the reason it failed.)

Quote:
Many Sith held the titles of Master And Apprentice and many were mere pretenders to the title. There were only several true Dark Lords. The most famous of these were Darth Bane,
Famous how? He wasn't really even well known to the galaxy because he was in secrecy after the destruction of the brotherhood of darkness. Out of necessity.

Quote:
Darth Rane (Zannah),
Darth Zannah was Bane's apprentice and successor. Nope, not famous.

Quote:
Darth Plaguis,
You mean this one? Sorry my friend, but he is also of Bane's lineage. Therefore he too would have been in secrecy.

Quote:
Darth Sideous, Darth Tyrranus, and Darth Vader (Skywalker).
Yes, these ones were famous to the galaxy so there you are correct.

Quote:
The Galactic Empire was born as well which combined the Republic and the Sith in one mighty Empire.
From a certian point of view, perhaps.

Quote:
Rule of One: Their was a time when two Sith ruled, but then Darth Krayt, the Last True Dark Lord arrived. he was said to be the last of the True Sith. He had no need of any apprentice, and he formed a mighty Empire out of Imperial Remnent. He was killed however, as the prophessy says. And with him, the last true Sith. The Galaxy was at last free from the Sith's treachury. Darth Krayt was the only Sith Ruler in the Rule of One.
Reeeeally? The one who killed Darth Krayt would certainly beg to differ with you. Well, if he wasn't hiding that fact from the rest of the galaxy, that is.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out and if he'll disappear into the shadows...I know Bane's Holocron certainly hasn't cooperated, Nihilus' Holocron probably needs a translator with a telekinetic link and the whereabouts of nihilus' secret apprentice are unknown at this time.

I won't spoil what I know about Darth Andeddu and his holocron. Let's just say his real tomb with his body and his holocron could not be located by the Jedi, only the false one on Korriban. Rumor has it, though, a sith lord or two or three may have gotten hold of it throughout the millenia.

Quote:
Who finds these "Holocrons" interesting?
I certainly do.


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Old 01-10-2010, 12:45 AM   #9
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Its just speculation, he may be, he may not be. It hasn't been proven yet but hasn't been denied by whoever makes stuff canon.
He absolutely positively cannot be Darth Sion. Sion's general back story has been revealed to us in the KOTOR Campaign Guide: he was a Sith Lord serving under Exar Kun who was cut down by a Jedi, but his mastery of the dark side permitted him to pull himself back together. Lucian's story obviously is not compatible.

I would argue, however, that it is still possible that Haazen may be Darth Sion. His story is compatible: he was a Jedi who fought the Sith during the Great Sith War (which would have been Kun's era), fell to the dark side and joined them. Plus, he could well have survived being crushed by the debris that was said to have killed him, given his mastery of being able to reassemble his body (if he is indeed Sion), plus the fact that we were never shown his corpse afterward. It may have been this incident that made him appear so fractured as Sion does in the game.


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Old 01-10-2010, 01:52 PM   #10
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He absolutely positively cannot be Darth Sion. Sion's general back story has been revealed to us in the KOTOR Campaign Guide: he was a Sith Lord serving under Exar Kun who was cut down by a Jedi, but his mastery of the dark side permitted him to pull himself back together. Lucian's story obviously is not compatible.
This.

Quote:
I would argue, however, that it is still possible that Haazen may be Darth Sion. His story is compatible: he was a Jedi who fought the Sith during the Great Sith War (which would have been Kun's era), fell to the dark side and joined them. Plus, he could well have survived being crushed by the debris that was said to have killed him, given his mastery of being able to reassemble his body (if he is indeed Sion), plus the fact that we were never shown his corpse afterward. It may have been this incident that made him appear so fractured as Sion does in the game.
While my evidence to refute this is images and ambiguity of backstory at best I would say not so.
> Haazen's entire right arm up to the shoulder is mechanical, and then some in order to support it on the torso, whereas Sion's right shoulder was of flesh, sure we don't have confirmation of what could be under that arm glove but I have a sneaking suspicion that Sion wouldn't have had a mechanical shoulder covered in synth flesh--just sounds too vain to be Sion and we saw no mechanics on his body nor such indication in the game.

> Haazen may have gotten really good at dueling close to taking the title Darth Hayze for himself, but before that he was so miserable at lightsaber dueling that he got his lightsaber taken away by a non force sensitive. Sion on the other hand was a sith marauder who are known to be devastating duelists. So there is some reconciling that needs to be done and explained if not outright contradictions.

I am of the opinion, though that they knew one another like business partners.

Another possibility is that there was more than one Darth Sion, like there had been more than one Darth Wyyrlok.

None of us know any of this for absolute sure.

@ Mr.C: just because canon people don't deny something doesn't mean it WILL be the truth either. Sometimes in order to protect integrity of things you must decline to comment either way--this coming from one who almost went into media, until I realized what a soulless mistake it was going to be.


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Old 02-01-2010, 04:39 PM   #11
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Could be very well possible! There was more than one Darth Traya from what I remember. There was, of coarse, Kreia (Arren Kae if you prefer "OOH more speculation!") And then there was Darth Trayus, an ancient Sith. Also, a better name for Anakin would have been Darth Trayus or something.
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Old 02-02-2010, 03:47 PM   #12
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Dude, you're taking Kreia too literally. The woman's heavily philosophical and always speaks in parables. When she said "there must always be a Darth Traya," she meant that the Sith always need a betrayer figure in order to survive (a principle that would eventually become the cornerstone of Darth Bane's Rule of Two). She didn't mean that there literally needed to be a female Sith Lord named Darth Traya all the time.

This is so obvious. I don't know why so many people don't get it.

Also, I can find no evidence of there ever having been a Darth Trayus (unless Wookieepedia missed something).


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Old 02-25-2010, 05:30 PM   #13
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Darth Trayus founded the academy on Malachor I thought!
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Old 02-25-2010, 06:21 PM   #14
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Trayus academy was affiliated with Adas's Sith, so It was built long before Dark Jedi met Sith, and Even longer before the name Darth was a prefix


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Old 02-26-2010, 06:35 AM   #15
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ohh, so it was founded by the dark exiles before they went to Korriban?
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Old 02-26-2010, 06:21 PM   #16
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nah, the Sith Species, before the exiles arrived


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Old 02-26-2010, 07:04 PM   #17
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I didn't think the Sith spieces ever left a world besides Korriban before the exiles came.
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Old 02-27-2010, 05:15 AM   #18
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The Rakata made contact with the Sith roughly 27,700 BBY, thus giving them the means to leave Korriban.


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Old 02-27-2010, 07:58 AM   #19
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i didn't know that! Thanks for adding on to these "Sith Holocrons" I made.




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Old 03-02-2010, 08:38 AM   #20
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Trayus academy was affiliated with Adas's Sith, so It was built long before Dark Jedi met Sith, and Even longer before the name Darth was a prefix
I thought it was built by the enigmatic "true Sith," the group now revealed to have fled from known space during the Great Hyperspace War?

It's funny that you mention that though because for years I'd been hoping that it would be revealed that the "true Sith" were Adas' followers. Imagine my disappointment when they turned out to be the most obvious, uncreative thing that everyone suspected at first but quickly brushed aside because it was just too obvious.


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Old 03-02-2010, 05:33 PM   #21
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I'd been hoping that it would be revealed that the "true Sith" were Adas' followers. Imagine my disappointment when they turned out to be the most obvious, uncreative thing that everyone suspected at first but quickly brushed aside because it was just too obvious.
What's the difference between the two?


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Old 03-05-2010, 09:06 AM   #22
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Um, Adas' followers left Korriban circa 28,000 BBY, the Sith Empire splinter faction fled in 5,000 BBY. And one was a pure-blooded Sith group while the other was genetically fused with the blood of Dark Jedi.


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Old 03-05-2010, 09:17 AM   #23
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That's it? Who cares? I'm asking for known differences in hierarchy, chain of command, organization, et cetera, not meaningless historical minutiae. What difference does this faction coming from the Great Hyperspace War as opposed to the further past actually make? Does it change the way they fight? Their philosophy? Their ideals? Their way of doing things?


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Old 03-08-2010, 02:17 AM   #24
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Well, why didn't you say so? Unfortunately, I was not gifted with telepathy.

The truth is, I really don't know. So little is known about Adas' Sith that it's hard to say, really. I would venture that not being in any way connected to the Dark Jedi who took over their culture (and predating the Jedi Order itself by three millennia) would probably have a lot to do with it. But there's no way of knowing for certain, unfortunately.

In that sense, history is certainly not meaningless. On that note, let me tell you what I once envisioned for the "true Sith," long before their true nature was revealed: these are a group of pure-blooded Sith who were propelled into a space age from a stone age, due to the arrival of the Rakata. This caused a rift in Sith culture: those who were not yet ready for such a huge leap in technology were left behind on Korriban as their space-faring counterparts - Adas' heirs - took to the skies in search of new things, leaving their primitive brethren behind as weaklings unworthy of the "Sith" name. It is these latter Sith who who were easily conquered by the exiled Dark Jedi millennia later.

Fast forward to Revan's time. These forgotten Sith - the "true Sith" - had been building an empire in secret, sending scouts into Republic and Sith space periodically to bring back reports. Believing that the other Sith - that is, the Sith Lords, the arch rivals of the Jedi - were a scourge who need to be destroyed, having been so easily subjugated, intermingled, and eventually phased out by their Dark Jedi conquerors. The "true Sith" wish to destroy the Sith Empire, having no care for the Jedi or the Republic whatsoever; but if they need to be destroyed in the process should they interfere, then so be it.

See, that would be something new and fresh, and totally different from the same old "Kill the Jedi! Burn the Republic!" theme with the Sith. Instead, the "true Sith" would want to destroy the Sith, not caring who they'd have to plow through in the process.

This is one great idea taken from a very vague concept that everyone knows so little about, and would have provided for a great plot for The Sith Lords or KOTOR 3. Instead, they chose to connect the "true Sith" to the most obvious piece of lore; one that everyone immediately suspected back in 2004 and quickly dismissed as far too obvious, coming up with more interesting theories left and right. I'm a little disappointed, but I'll live.

Anyway, I seem to have strayed from my original point. Long-story-short: we really don't know what differences there were between Adas' Sith and the Sith of the Great Hyperspace War because so little is known about the former. We can only assume that not having anything to do with the fallen Jedi would probably make for some significant differences, and exploring that avenue would have made for a great central plot.

And it was the latter that built the Trayus Academy.


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Old 03-08-2010, 02:18 PM   #25
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See, that would be something new and fresh, and totally different from the same old "Kill the Jedi! Burn the Republic!" theme with the Sith. Instead, the "true Sith" would want to destroy the Sith, not caring who they'd have to plow through in the process.
There's just one problem: The Sith Empire was already practically defunct as a military power by the end of TSL. There isn't a "false" Sith Empire for the "true" Sith to go after.


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Old 03-08-2010, 02:48 PM   #26
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And it was the latter that built the Trayus Academy.
It was Affiliated with Adas' Sith therefore must be the Former, although it makes no sense whatsoever as it is mentioned in a footnote somewhere and not explained.


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Old 03-08-2010, 04:05 PM   #27
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It wasn't affiliated with Adas' Sith! That was my whole point! It was built by the Sith who departed from known space after the Great Hyperspace War, and who will return in The Old Republic.

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There's just one problem: The Sith Empire was already practically defunct as a military power by the end of TSL. There isn't a "false" Sith Empire for the "true" Sith to go after.
Yeah, I suppose you're right. Still, I'm sure there could have been a way around it. The Sith Order itself never ceased to exist. Maybe they would have become a formidable fighting force once again by the time of The Old Republic, to the point where they could have stood up to the "true Sith."

It's all moot now, anyway.


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Old 03-08-2010, 06:29 PM   #28
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[i]It wasn't affiliated with Adas' Sith!.
I'm just saying it is mentioned in either sourcebooks or the defunct Chronicles (Obsidian website) That it was affiliated with Adas, I actually couldn't care less as the Trayus level is probably my least favorite level on the game hehe.



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Old 03-08-2010, 07:12 PM   #29
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It was? Man, I didn't know that! I would have liked to have seen these references as they would have pretty much been exactly what my old theory proposed. If only I had known how spot-on I was! Seriously didn't think my theory was what Obsidian had in mind, but . . . I am truly shocked that it was!

And now LucasArts has taken that great idea and dumbed it down to something else entirely.


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Old 03-09-2010, 06:22 PM   #30
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I've read Chronicles at least twice, and I can't find any mention of Adas in there.


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Old 03-09-2010, 06:36 PM   #31
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Ah, thought so.

See? I do know what I'm talking about.


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Old 03-09-2010, 06:49 PM   #32
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would Revan's men be considered part of "The True Sith"




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Old 03-09-2010, 08:50 PM   #33
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Having never read any of the chronicals, I'm going to make an unqualified guess at NO as I'm guessing that "True Sith" refer to those of the Sith Specie/Empire, of which none of Revan's men belonged.


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Old 03-10-2010, 12:44 PM   #34
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I've read Chronicles at least twice, and I can't find any mention of Adas in there.
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Ah, thought so.

See? I do know what I'm talking about.
I didn't want to resort to rummaging through my vast archive, and taking pictures of my Star Wars Books, but when people take 1 of my 3 possible sources and Close the case on me, more investigations are in Order , and please remember, I never said Adas Built Trayus by hand Lol, merely that it, and the world it was built on, were affiliated with Adas and the Sith long before Half-Breeds and Dark Jedi...


If you cant make it out it says "The Sith King Adas Routed the Invaders, then used their Captured Starships to Reach Ziost, Malachor and Tund". ~ Star Wars: The Essential Atlas


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Old 03-10-2010, 10:01 PM   #35
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Um, okay, cool, but that isn't what everyone here is saying. We were under the impression that you were implying that it was Adas' followers who built the Trayus Academy, and we were trying to tell you that is was the post-Great-Hyperspace-War splinter group whom Kreia dubs the "true Sith" that built it. If if that wasn't your point, then cool. You've supplied us with some information that I was not aware of.

Also, that is some interesting information on the First Great Schism. I knew that the war ended with the death of Xendor on Columus, but I didn't know that Coruscant and Brentaal were involved in the war. I also wasn't aware that the Sith of Korriban once staved off the Killiks.

What book is that? That looks like one of the newer source books, like The New Essential Chronology, Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, or The Essential Atlas; but I've read all of those and do not recall coming across that information. It could be that I just forgot.

(As an aside, why does everyone insist on capitalizing the T in "true" when speaking of the "true Sith" when it is not capitalized in Kreia's dialogue in the game, and I've continuously refrained from capitalizing it here? Subliminal messages, people! )


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Old 03-11-2010, 02:39 AM   #36
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Um, okay, cool, but that isn't what everyone here is saying. We were under the impression that you were implying that it was Adas' followers who built the Trayus Academy, and we were trying to tell you that is was the post-Great-Hyperspace-War splinter group whom Kreia dubs the "true Sith" that built it.
I think its just You bud, its only me and you discussing it and I quite clearly am not implying what you say, If you check back to my posts I never actually say he built it, just that Malachor and Trayus has a longer history, I never mentioned your Splinter Group either, just Adas and "Affiliation" Now thats cleared up forever, Yes, the book is the Essential atlas


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Old 05-12-2010, 12:26 PM   #37
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but i got to get one thing right isnt it said that revan was probally the most powerful sith ever and the closest to ever COMPLETELY destroying the republic AND jedi not like sidious who had jedi alive and had a rebellion lol, is it not though he wasa genious and the strongest and very persuasive that is how he did so well it is said if he would have not been turned on by malak he would have won the war within months right? that is what i read cant remember were though it was.


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Old 05-12-2010, 01:30 PM   #38
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I seem a bit bothered by the idea that the True Sith were behind Revan's discovery of the Star Map. Didn't Revan discover the Star Map after the Mandalorian wars, which during so, he discovered Malachor V, submitted himself to the dark side and learnt of the existence of the True Sith. Because ever since TOR, it seems the True Sith were responsible for nearly every major event.
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Old 05-12-2010, 10:36 PM   #39
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<<The 1st Sith Empire 5,000 BBY: The first kingdom of the Sith eventually conquered other planets such as Ziost, Malachor, and Raxus Prime creating a large Sith Empire ruled through brutality and fear. They challenged the republic many times and were victorious. It seemed as long as these Sith inhabited known space, they would be victorious. Then came civil war. The two friends Naga Saddow and Ludo Kressh became the next rulers of the Sith but then both wished for absolute control. Ludo Kressh betrayed his master and launched civil war upon the Empire. After Naga Saddow taught Ludo a lesson, he launched a campaign on the republic and the Jedi only to be defeated. Humiliated that his Empire could be defeated by the "corrupt" jedi, Saddow retreated to Yavin 4 where it is said he died. Though some say he left to go build an army in the outer regions. Several well known rulers are Ludo kressh, Naga Saddow, and Freedon Nadd.
Very interesting thread and one I'm very passionate about. I would not consider Freedon Nadd part of the "Original Sith Empire" or part of the original succesion of Dark Lords who ruled from Ziost and Korriban. He assumed the mantle of Dark Lord by apprenticing under Sadow, then killing him, hundreds of years after the full collapse of the Empire.

Nadd is a very interesting person in the Sith annals, he never tried to reconstitute the Sith order during his life and was content ruling over Onderon, being worshipped as a god, and letting the old Sith Culture die. It is for these reasons that I would classify him as the father of the new Movement inherited by Exaar Kunn, and then eventually reinvigorated by Revan and Malak and destroyed following the rise and fall of the Sith Triumvirate.

BTW I have a very very very indepth History of the Sith I compiled from Wookiepedia and other sources if anyone would like to see it send me a message.

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Having never read any of the chronicals, I'm going to make an unqualified guess at NO as I'm guessing that "True Sith" refer to those of the Sith Specie/Empire, of which none of Revan's men belonged.
The True Sith are a group of descendants that survived the Great Hyperspace War which destroyed the original Sith Empire.

When the Republic destroyed the original Sith Empire during the Great Hyperspace War, the remaining Sith scattered and spread into deep space. Naga Sadow beleived himself and those who followed him to Yavin IV to be the last surviving remnants.

Those who followed him to Yavin would slowly be absorbed into the local culture on Yavin and with Sadow placing himself in long periods of stasis the old Sith cutlure died a slow death.

Eventually Freedon Nadd would awaken Naga Sadow, train under him then kill him and seize control of the mantle of Dark Lord. When Sadow died, it was widely believed that the "original Sith" had finally become extinct.

However the "True Sith" were a group that had managed to survive and thrive for a milienia being led by a succesion of Dark Lords who could trace their ancestry back to the Original Sith Empire.

They would prove a serious threat that would eventually invade the republic several centuries after the events of Kotor I and Kotor II.

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Old 05-23-2010, 01:39 AM   #40
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I seem a bit bothered by the idea that the True Sith were behind Revan's discovery of the Star Map. Didn't Revan discover the Star Map after the Mandalorian wars, which during so, he discovered Malachor V, submitted himself to the dark side and learnt of the existence of the True Sith. Because ever since TOR, it seems the True Sith were responsible for nearly every major event.
I believe, and please correct me if I am incorrect, that Revan never really invaded the Republic for the same reasons as the "True Sith" intended.

During the Mandalorian Wars, he found Malachor V and learned the teachings of the Sith from the Academy there to better battle against the Mandalorians. Revan and Malak spread the teachings of the Sith through the ranks of the Republic fleet they commanded. After that they discovered the "True Sith" and were then told to invade the Republic for their arrival, and Revan obliged.

But he was really strengthening the Republic for War against this threat he found in the Unknown Regions. He eliminated people and Senators that would be a problem for his plans, he captured republic shipyards or bypassed them. He wanted the keep the infrastructure of the republic intact so they could better deal with this "Invasion" that was going to occur. He WOULD of succeeded if Malak was not such a fool and betrayed him during Revan's encounter with Bastila Shan.



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