Thread: Why I won't be playing TOR.
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Old 07-01-2010, 01:35 PM   #41
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Personally, for me, its the 'stylized realism'. The first non-TOR game that comes to mind is Team Fortress 2. And, well the stylizing makes sense with the game becauses its meant to be a funny, not serious game. But with TOR, from what we've seen, the only reason I've seen for their stylizing is that it lasts longer, which I tend to agree with. But I also see it as a way to save space, make textures that aren't as complex as, say, Mass Effect or Crysis.
Exactly.



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Old 07-01-2010, 01:44 PM   #42
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No need. Everyone knows that. Low system requirements is another factor that helps bringing more people to the game.
Yes, I agree lower system requirements are a bonus. We seem to be disagreeing on what they could have done to maintain those same requirements.

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I don't think it is.
Fair enough

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So, it's not based on WoW. It's an option. Stylised or realistic graphics. They chose stylised, deal with it. There are many games with stylised graphics, and that doesn't make it a copy of WoW.
I'll just have to deal with it then...

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In all honesty, It's not WoW combat. If you think it is, well, whatever...
I stand by my opinion. I will say though, even though we seem to be disagreeing a lot I am enjoying actually getting to talk about this.

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Personally, for me, its the 'stylized realism'. The first non-TOR game that comes to mind is Team Fortress 2. And, well the stylizing makes sense with the game becauses its meant to be a funny, not serious game.
When you have a dialog heavy game that you are supposed to take a bit seriously can you see how that can put people off?


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Old 07-01-2010, 01:57 PM   #43
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I'll just have to deal with it then...
Why the shock?



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Old 07-01-2010, 02:05 PM   #44
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Why the shock?
It isn't real shock, i'm just trying to be funny.


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Old 07-01-2010, 02:06 PM   #45
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When you have a dialog heavy game that you are supposed to take a bit seriously can you see how that can put people off?
Some of the best stories I have ever seen told are cartoons. They don't put me off. But that's just me. Just to name a few:

Monsters Inc.
Batman Mask of the Phantasm
Appleseed ExMachina
How to Train your Dragon
Incredibles


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Old 07-01-2010, 02:13 PM   #46
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Some of the best stories I have ever seen told are cartoons. They don't put me off. But that's just me. Just to name a few:

Monsters Inc.
Batman Mask of the Phantasm
Appleseed ExMachina
How to Train your Dragon
Incredibles


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Fair enough but do you see my point?

A good story is a good story, In a video game though the visuals of the game help set an atmosphere. To have as much dialog as they're going to have and drive the dialog it just seems like a big contrast to have cartoon characters debating the semantics of how the force should be used (for example) seems to kill the immersion a bit.


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Old 07-01-2010, 02:22 PM   #47
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You should have accredited the original quotes to me BTW.

I did qualify my statements with "most" If that's not you, then it's not you.

Stylized graphics, Well I tend to really like the very artistic design of the landscapes and environment. There are a few other good reasons for it. Lower graphics requirements. Could you see a game appealing to the masses that only a few have rigs capable of running?

Of course you bring up KotOR's graphics. They had like 30 total faces... Mass Effect, had very customizable faces, but again, the graphics requirement are double that of WoW. Not saying the graphics look like WoW, actually those graphics were boring. BUT I could see the reason for it.

I look at the in game footage, and quite frankly it looks better than KotOR, but less than ME.

And quite frankly I played a few games that used "Cell Shaded" and had very good stories as well. Then there's all the Graphic Novels out there that have artistic styling. Then there's movies like Sin City that also use stylized realism.


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Old 07-01-2010, 02:24 PM   #48
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I have to disagree. Just because a movie is shot using live action does not make it more serious over a cartoon. IMO you can get the same attachment to a character when they love, cry, or are in pain no matter if they are an actor, or depicted as a cartoon.

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Old 07-01-2010, 02:33 PM   #49
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It isn't real shock, i'm just trying to be funny.
Oh. Sorry then.



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Old 07-01-2010, 02:37 PM   #50
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You should have accredited the original quotes to me BTW.
I was afraid you'd freak out at me if I used your name seeing as I used them to start a new thread as opposed to replying within that thread.

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Stylized graphics, Well I tend to really like the very artistic design of the landscapes and environment. There are a few other good reasons for it. Lower graphics requirements. Could you see a game appealing to the masses that only a few have rigs capable of running?
Don't get me wrong, I think the scenery looks cool enough. I just really hate how the characters look.
It's almost like placing Clone Wars Yoda into one of the films if you know what I mean?



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I have to disagree. Just because a movie is shot using live action does not make it more serious over a cartoon. IMO you can get the same attachment to a character when they love, cry, or are in pain no matter if they are an actor, or depicted as a cartoon.

~Sith Lord Drew
I suppose that's where we differ a bit.
It's not so much that the characters are cartoonish, it's that it's cartoonish characters in a serious enough SW game. I just can't see me taking my character seriously.

My general experience is: Star Wars + Kid's Animation/Manga =

They just don't mix well for me.

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Oh. Sorry then.
No problem.



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Old 07-01-2010, 02:45 PM   #51
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I just can't see me taking my character seriously.

My general experience is: Star Wars + Kid's Animation/Manga =

They just don't mix well for me.
What are we supposed to do, then?



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Old 07-01-2010, 02:48 PM   #52
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What are we supposed to do, then?
Sympathise with me and tell me you know how I feel!

Seriously thiugh, I am curious if i'm the only one who thinks these 2 things don't mix?

Wouldn't this game be much better if it didn't look like a kids cartoon?


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Old 07-01-2010, 02:52 PM   #53
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Wouldn't this game be much better if it didn't look like a kids cartoon?
I don't understand the "kids cartoon" part.



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Old 07-01-2010, 03:05 PM   #54
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I don't understand the "kids cartoon" part.
Ok, this is gameplay screenshot from the upcoming mmo.



And this is from the last kotor which came out 6 years ago.



Out of these 2 images which do you think looks better suited to a SW mmo?


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Old 07-01-2010, 03:12 PM   #55
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Neither. The screenshot you posted was one of the EARLY screenshots. You can tell by the "Pringles Saber"

Try this one


or this one


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Old 07-01-2010, 03:30 PM   #56
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I still think this:



Looks better than..



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Old 07-01-2010, 03:36 PM   #57
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So you prefer lightsabers that didn't connect, repeated flat landscapes, narrowly defined walking areas, very small worlds, expressionless faces, and a total of 30 faces for the entire game, to TOR? Then there's not much point in discussion is there. You won't be swayed.


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Old 07-01-2010, 03:55 PM   #58
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So you prefer lightsabers that didn't connect, repeated flat landscapes, narrowly defined walking areas, very small worlds, expressionless faces, and a total of 30 faces for the entire game, to TOR? Then there's not much point in discussion is there. You won't be swayed.
As i've stated many times now, it's the cartoony characters that i'm not into.

All of the things you just mentioned are not relevant to the point I was trying to make.


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Old 07-01-2010, 04:14 PM   #59
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So, you don't like the cartoon look and you think cartoons are for kids. We can't do anything.



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Old 07-01-2010, 06:15 PM   #60
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Its ok Veni ...." You are not alone, I am here with you " haha i know exactly what you mean buddy - And so does ALEXRD lol . It looks SILLY the way they have created it all, unless your playing a game thats based on a cartoon show / movie, e.g Naruto or Dragon Ball Z.

I though one of the main points of the game was to try and make it look as realistic as possible unless thats the look they purposly are going for. I will say the movies look so amazing though ) but , theres nothing we can do to change it.

And btw The Incredibles movie was awwssoommee, im still waiting for the next one


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Old 07-01-2010, 07:14 PM   #61
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As i've stated many times now, it's the cartoony characters that i'm not into.

All of the things you just mentioned are not relevant to the point I was trying to make.
The "cartoony" characters in my opinion look better than the characters in KotOR(IMHO). But if you want a more realistic look you might look at SWG. And you did ask which looked better suited to an SW MMO. And quite frankly I think the realistic combat helps immersion better than early production cartoon looks detract from it. They have gotten a bit better.


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Old 07-01-2010, 08:39 PM   #62
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So you prefer lightsabers that didn't connect, repeated flat landscapes, narrowly defined walking areas, very small worlds, expressionless faces, and a total of 30 faces for the entire game, to TOR? Then there's not much point in discussion is there. You won't be swayed.
This.

KotOR (one and two) will not hold a graphical candle to SW:TOR. I'm with Tommycat and Alexrd here. SW:TOR will be the first game I'll be paying a monthly sub for due to what I've seen while I've been following the game (the guild I'm in has also contributed to my hype).

I loved of Veni chose the most earliest screenshot as an example of the graphics of SW:TOR (that have been overhauled on many occasions and most likely will several more times before we reach launch). You're pretty dead-set, Veni, so I don't quite see the point of your debating the game at all.

WoW may be considering moving to a F2P style based on what they're seeing with Turbine's and other MMOs' numbers, so that may not be completely out of the question for SW:TOR.


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Old 07-02-2010, 09:33 AM   #63
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I've played most of the current major MMO's out there with the exception of Everquest. Out of all of them it is well known that the most successful is WoW, and the reason for that is that clearly Blizzard has done a good number of things right.

For me, the graphics are not a problem, but then I am a "veteran" MMO player and as such probably used to it. At the same time I'm sure Bioware and LucasArts considered many different things before they chose a presentation style including what they thought would work, and the success or lack thereof of their predecessors in the MMO genre. If you don't like it ya don't like and there's little I can do I'm sure to persuade you otherwise.

I could say the same thing regarding the combat system. Bioware and LA had to look at something they thought would work. WoW was not the first game to use the combat system it uses nor will it be the last. What I think will make TOR fun are the unique combat abilities available in the Star Wars universe including lightsaber combat, the bounty hunter jetpack, the Force etc...At the same time the same could be said for WoW as well but several of the abilities in WoW are very similar to D&D and other rpgs...

As for the subscription...well it is a necessary evil. Software sales alone are not enough to maintain servers, pay support staff, pay developers and whatnot especially over an extended period of time. Even Free to play games such as DDO have a subscription system available and microtransactions. The expenses of maintaining and MMO are massive and while paying is unattractive to some there are many that fail to understand why they subscription system is there. (not saying its anyone here, but I've run across plenty.)


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Old 07-02-2010, 04:55 PM   #64
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As of right now, the only thing that will prevent me from playing the game past the first month will be how much money I have to pay to play it. As a rule, I do not play games with monthly subscriptions. I've already bought the game, why should I have to pay more, just to play it?

Everything about TOR, so far, has enthralled me, every step of the way. I will say one thing I do not like, though- the HUD we've seen so far in the gameplay videos. However, that can most likely be altered through Textmod or something like that, so it's not *that* huge of an issue.

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Old 07-02-2010, 07:49 PM   #65
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As of right now, the only thing that will prevent me from playing the game past the first month will be how much money I have to pay to play it. As a rule, I do not play games with monthly subscriptions. I've already bought the game, why should I have to pay more, just to play it?
So the company can keep the servers up and pay their employees to make updates and expansions maybe?


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Old 07-02-2010, 08:31 PM   #66
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So the company can keep the servers up and pay their employees to make updates and expansions maybe?
QFT...as I stated previously maintenance over time of an MMO including hardware upgrades, software, development staff, admins, account management customer service etc...costs money that cannot be made merely off software alone particularly if the game continues to exist for years after its initial release (a la WoW). That money is certainly not pure profit.


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Old 07-03-2010, 12:24 PM   #67
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Not to mention many games with monthly fees ALSO add FREE* content. You get MORE content than you would from a simple single player game. It may be as simple as events, and equipment, or as in the case of SWG completely NEW content at no additional charge.

Imagine how much you would have to pay if BioWare released TOR as 8 single player games. In order to get the whole game with 8 class stories you would have to pay $480. For HALF that you have a year of play(assuming $60 for the game, and $15/month), the whole game, multi-player, and far more content than they could package into a multi-DVD pack. Even as little content as SWG has, it's more content than any SP game I played. And WoW has TONS more(I just don't like swords and boards).

Imagine if KotORII could have had that kind of freedom to add content. We wouldn't have had the crappy ending that left you going "um... is that it?" By their very nature an MMO has to keep you WANTING to play. So continuing to add content becomes necessary.

*free meaning without a second purchase, as the monthly fee covers that.


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Old 07-05-2010, 02:22 AM   #68
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Its ok Veni ...." You are not alone, I am here with you " haha i know exactly what you mean buddy - And so does ALEXRD lol . It looks SILLY the way they have created it all, unless your playing a game thats based on a cartoon show / movie, e.g Naruto or Dragon Ball Z.
Thanks for being here for me.
Your Dragon Ball Z anology perfectly explains where i'm coming from.

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I though one of the main points of the game was to try and make it look as realistic as possible unless thats the look they purposly are going for. I will say the movies look so amazing though ) but , theres nothing we can do to change it.
I agree with you on the two trailers, I think they look cool. I'm just not as blown away by how the actual game looks.

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KotOR (one and two) will not hold a graphical candle to SW:TOR. I'm with Tommycat and Alexrd here. SW:TOR will be the first game I'll be paying a monthly sub for due to what I've seen while I've been following the game (the guild I'm in has also contributed to my hype).
TSl came out 6 years ago, of course this game that's coming out late next year should be graphically better. I was argueing that the style is worse.

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I loved of Veni chose the most earliest screenshot as an example of the graphics of SW:TOR (that have been overhauled on many occasions and most likely will several more times before we reach launch). You're pretty dead-set, Veni, so I don't quite see the point of your debating the game at all.
Honestly, I googled "tor jedi gameplay footage" and "TSL jedi gameplay footage" and those were the first few images that I saw.
I'm debating because i think that this game could be unbelieveably good but it looks like Bioware are missing a good oppourtunity here.

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WoW may be considering moving to a F2P style based on what they're seeing with Turbine's and other MMOs' numbers, so that may not be completely out of the question for SW:TOR.
I doubt Bioware will make it F2P. If Blizzard are clever they'll do this close to the release date of TOR.

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The "cartoony" characters in my opinion look better than the characters in KotOR(IMHO). But if you want a more realistic look you might look at SWG. And you did ask which looked better suited to an SW MMO. And quite frankly I think the realistic combat helps immersion better than early production cartoon looks detract from it. They have gotten a bit better.
I agree with you on the combat helping immersion. I will say this though, don't you think it's odd that the older SW mmo will have a more realistic look?

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So, you don't like the cartoon look and you think cartoons are for kids. We can't do anything.
We? You work for Bioware??
I'm just stating my opinions man.

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Imagine if KotORII could have had that kind of freedom to add content. We wouldn't have had the crappy ending that left you going "um... is that it?" By their very nature an MMO has to keep you WANTING to play. So continuing to add content becomes necessary.
You do know that Lucas Arts forced Obsidian to rush the release of TSL yeah?


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Old 07-05-2010, 09:15 AM   #69
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You do know that Lucas Arts forced Obsidian to rush the release of TSL yeah?
That's kind of a half truth. Obsidian also planned poorly for the time they had, which they admitted.

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Old 07-05-2010, 10:02 AM   #70
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I like the new look of the Old Republic era. Minus the clone armor for Republic troops. Other than that, I think this game is going to be amazing, graphics included. I will be playing, even if I didn't like the graphics as much as previous games. Honestly, seeing the post with a TSL pic and a TOR pic next to each other, I am even more excited and seriously can't wait for this game to be released!


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Old 07-05-2010, 10:23 AM   #71
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Obsidian also planned poorly for the time they had, which they admitted.
I didn't know that, thanks for the info.


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I like the new look of the Old Republic era. Minus the clone armor for Republic troops. Other than that, I think this game is going to be amazing, graphics included. I will be playing, even if I didn't like the graphics as much as previous games. Honestly, seeing the post with a TSL pic and a TOR pic next to each other, I am even more excited and seriously can't wait for this game to be released!
In a lot of ways I think they're doing the right thing. It just dosen't look different enough from the other mmo's for me to be intrested.


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Old 07-06-2010, 08:45 AM   #72
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In a lot of ways I think they're doing the right thing. It just dosen't look different enough from the other mmo's for me to be intrested.
Well, it's difficult to do something different I guess. That goes for more genres.

I once named Guild Wars that did stuff differently, but even they had a static fight system, skills leveling, armor crafting and the standard stuff.

Maybe it's not the 'core' that's different, but merely the stuff Bioware is doing with that core gameplay. Peronalised transportation, fully voiced over game, cover system, fast-paced action (I was VERY pleased with the last demo video. It showed the healer character was able to do some Melee work while healing, the smuggler was too. WoW is VERY static when it comes to do this. As a caster you stand and spam 1-8 on your keybord).

The style, I still don't know. Too much prequel-looking for me. But I felt that way about TSL as well, with the modern robes and such. Maybe it'll come in time.

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Old 07-06-2010, 04:50 PM   #73
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Well, it's difficult to do something different I guess. That goes for more genres.

I once named Guild Wars that did stuff differently, but even they had a static fight system, skills leveling, armor crafting and the standard stuff.
I only recently discovered the system for pre-cu SWG of building your character. It is quite different to other mmo's and was quite impressed by it.
There are ways to do things differently but a lot of companies don't want to risk too much with their releases I suppose.

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Maybe it's not the 'core' that's different, but merely the stuff Bioware is doing with that core gameplay. Peronalised transportation, fully voiced over game, cover system, fast-paced action (I was VERY pleased with the last demo video. It showed the healer character was able to do some Melee work while healing, the smuggler was too. WoW is VERY static when it comes to do this. As a caster you stand and spam 1-8 on your keybord).
I agree that WoW is an incredibly unintuitive combat experience, hopefully the more Bioware realise this the more they'll try to make their combat that much better. As it stands right now.. it's still kind of lacking imo.

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The style, I still don't know. Too much prequel-looking for me. But I felt that way about TSL as well, with the modern robes and such. Maybe it'll come in time.
Well the robe thing in TSL was good i thought, I never liked the jedi/sith clothing in kotor 1, it just looked a bit of a mess.

I hope the more they expand the game the more intuitive the combat gets and more based on realism the character graphics get.


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Old 07-19-2010, 12:35 PM   #74
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On topic, I was not, and still am not happy that SW:TOR is a MMO, I'm a single player gamer by nature. However I don't see the point on judging the game now, if once it is release there are free 7 day trials and what not, I really don't see the point in having an attitude which is "I'm not going to play that" without having at least played a free demo. I for one despite by sceptical will but this scepticism asside and give any free demo's a chance. I don't like MMO's but if anything was going to get me to play one it would be Star Wars...

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Old 07-28-2010, 02:16 PM   #75
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honestly im not expecting this game to be like any of the KOTORs when blizzard made world of warcraft was it similar to warcraft? no. but this dosnt mean its going to be a bad game.

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Old 07-28-2010, 07:17 PM   #76
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im not going to play it because its an MMO , simple. doesnt matter if there is a 7 day
free trial .....meh .


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Old 07-28-2010, 07:59 PM   #77
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Yeah, I don't think I'll be playing TOR. Just another MMO, but Star Wars.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it'll be a good MMO, I'm just not interested in playing an MMO.

MMO.
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Old 08-27-2010, 01:57 PM   #78
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The character designs look like something out of a low budget saturday morning cartoon. SWTOR offers nothing innovative to the genre despite their insistent behavior over how unique the story unfolds. While I am not a huge fan of the Force Unleashed, I would much rather see a Star Wars MMO similar in design and gameplay. Dark, gritty, over the top and set during a timeline most of us grew up loving.
Imo, The Force Unleashed is a collection of forced clichés in a canon-raping story. It's a good game, don't get me wrong. But it has nothing the old trilogy has. I don't think it gets much love from the first-hour fans. I mean....cloning, Vader, Yoda, reverse-grip lightsaber...it's an explosion of nerdgasm.
Swtor is trying to create a setting based on the movies and is much more subtle in doing so. It's using the movies as inspiration, not using everything IN the movies.

It is over-the-top epic though, have to give you that. But we haven't seen the lv 60 powers from ToR either...

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Old 08-27-2010, 02:39 PM   #79
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I, personally, am done with stories set in the timeline most of us grew up loving. That whole era has been milked out, whether it's in games, novels, comics or tv series, and none of it ever came close to the quality of the original trilogy.

I'm glad some people are steering away from this era, though not everyone is using that freedom to its full capacity. SWTOR is more than 3,000 years before the movies, but it still tries to connect as much as possible to the movies and in my opinion, actually not in a subtle way. Tie Fighters, Clone Troopers, Boba Fett, Moffs, Hoth, these are some of the results of the movies "inspiring" SWTOR.

I don't agree on SWTOR being better had they adapted a more action-y gameplay à la The Force Unleashed. I have only played a bit of TFU, but there's hardly much depth in its gameplay, something that I think is needed for games in the MMO genre. And I'm not pro-over the top gameplay, myself. Agreed, it's disappointing that SWTOR isn't trying to innovate when it comes to MMO gameplay (and keeps hiding behind the "story pillar" as if that was the one thing that was missing from MMO's) and it's precisely that aspect that will make or break the game, no matter how much effort they put into their storytelling. But I still prefer traditional MMO gameplay over TFU-based gameplay.


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Old 08-28-2010, 09:00 AM   #80
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I don't think that Bioware has to innovate anything in order to make this game a success. Why would they go out on a limb and try and design something completely new when they don't have to? All they have to do is do it in an outstanding fashion and they will draw subscribers. Blizzard didn't innovate a blasted thing when they brought out WoW, they simply did what everyone else was doing but they did it better, but then I'm an avid MMO player and I saw the difference between WoW and its predecessors.

For those concerned there's too much movie influence...what did you expect? I mean really, what did you honestly think they were going to do? This game, like any other product, has targeted demographics. Some of that is MMO players, some of that is OT fans, some of that is people who love the prequels(god help me there are some out there), some of that is KOTOR fans, etc...They have to use elements that Star Wars fans are familiar with but at the same time elements that someone who has never picked up a Star Wars game, book, or movie(god help me there are some of those too) can relate to.

I don't really think Bioware is "hiding" behind anything. They have been straight forward that they want to bring their kind of story telling to the Star Wars universe and the MMO genre. Say what you wish about Bioware's stories following "patterns" or whatever, but imho they still tell compelling stories in their games and that is evident by their game sales and critical success. I will definitely be playing TOR at some point even though there are things I dislike(the space combat for starters)I'm willing to give them a chance.


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