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Old 11-09-2010, 02:09 PM   #41
Zerimar Nyliram
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That doesn't make sense. Deciding to cut down Vader suddenly brings this other character who didn't exist previously into existence? That's not logical. The Dark Apprentice clearly exists, and there has to be a reason why he allowed Vader to be captured. [Edit: What you said about Vader clearly not being in danger in the light side ending even reinforces this.]

For that matter, there has to be a reason why Vader allowed himself to be captured. For someone so powerful in the Force, I can't envision him being so easily shackled up by a couple of puny Rebel soldiers, or that those harnesses would prevent him from breaking loose.


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Old 11-09-2010, 04:22 PM   #42
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Isn't that story non-canon? If it is canon, shouldn't Starkiller be wearing Jedi Adventure Robes? Isn't a bit awkward Juno falling in love by a stranger, just because he is Starkiller's clone?
Doesn't he orignally get stabbed by Vader in the outfit shown?

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Old 11-09-2010, 04:27 PM   #43
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Doesn't he orignally get stabbed by Vader in the outfit shown?
True.



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Old 11-09-2010, 05:18 PM   #44
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The Dark Apprentice clearly exists, and there has to be a reason why he allowed Vader to be captured.
Of course there is. What's Vader after? The Rebellion, right? And where's Kota taking him? To the Rebels' secret base. Kota is not only showing Vader where the base is, he's actually bringing him there. Now I wouldn't say that's a terribly bright idea even with Vader securly bound, but with an invisible evil Starkiller skulking around? Wanna bet he stowed away on board the Rogue Shadow? You see where this is going?

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Doesn't he orignally get stabbed by Vader in the outfit shown?
Hm... now that's either a gigantic coincidence, or the writers may not be quite as incompetent as they seem. If I recall correctly, in TFU1 the enemies on the Empirical referred to the newly revived Starkiller as subject 1138. Now in TFU2 on Kamino they say that subject 1138 has returned to Kamino. Perhaps Starkiller's been dead since halfway through TFU1 and we've been playing a clone all along.
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Old 11-09-2010, 05:27 PM   #45
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Hm... now that's either a gigantic coincidence, or the writers may not be quite as incompetent as they seem. If I recall correctly, in TFU1 the enemies on the Empirical referred to the newly revived Starkiller as subject 1138. Now in TFU2 on Kamino they say that subject 1138 has returned to Kamino. Perhaps Starkiller's been dead since halfway through TFU1 and we've been playing a clone all along.
And wouldn't he need time to grow? That doesn't fit.



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Old 11-09-2010, 06:25 PM   #46
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Of course there is. What's Vader after? The Rebellion, right? And where's Kota taking him? To the Rebels' secret base. Kota is not only showing Vader where the base is, he's actually bringing him there. Now I wouldn't say that's a terribly bright idea even with Vader securly bound, but with an invisible evil Starkiller skulking around? Wanna bet he stowed away on board the Rogue Shadow? You see where this is going?
Um . . . Yes, I agree with you one hundred percent, but I still don't see how that proves the Dark Apprentice didn't exist.

Think of it this way: In terms of the dark side ending, everything up to the moment where the player presses that "dark side" button and triggers the ending is canon, right? That means that everything that transpired up until that moment has really and truly occurred, both within the story that we see playing out in front of us, as well as what is happening behind the scenes in order to make those events play out the way we see them play out.

Now, in order for the non-canonical dark side ending to play out the way it does - with the Dark Apprentice showing up to spoil everything - that means that, up until that point, everything necessary to lay the groundwork for such a thing to happen needed to transpire within the canonical portion of the story. So unless this evil clone suddenly materializes from nonexistence into being when the player presses that "dark side" button, it's logical to assume that while Starkiller is off doing what he does over the course of the story, his evil twin is also out there doing what he needs to do to get close to his master and Starkiller in order to carry out Vader's will should the need arise (which it does not).

And for whatever reason--likely the reasons you mentioned--he chooses not to kill Starkiller when the latter spares Vader's life.

As such--and I know this is probably just the fanboy in me speaking--I think the Dark Apprentice is the best candidate for the other main villain in the next game. And although I'm willing to bet that LucasArts lets that entire scenario slide and leaves this huge plothole open, it still would not disprove his existence.


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Old 11-09-2010, 06:32 PM   #47
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As a follow-up to the above posts: That would work if it were not for the fact that all of the clones possess Galen's memories from both before and after the Empirical incident. That would mean that, if the Starkiller appearing in the story from that point on was indeed the clone, the clones on Kamino are clones of this clone, not the original host; and that, in turn, means that the body suspended in the air in the above scene is not, in fact, the template from which all of the clones were created.

But in any case, I don't even think the outfit looks like the one you're talking about. Rather, I think it more closely resembles the outfit that Starkiller wears in the second game, from the Salvation onward. That's even more problematic.

But it's an artistic representation. No harm done. After all, look how much Kratos' brother from the new God of War PSP game--whose story was entirely inspired from an unlockable video from the first God of War game from PS2--looks nothing like what he looks like in that video. Things such as this should be viewed more as representations rather than actual depictions.




[Edit] As for having no time to grow the original clone, just to play devil's advocate here are two things to consider: 1) Vader raised Starkiller from childhood, so he would have had any number of years to obtain a DNA sample and grow a clone in secret. 2) Canonical sources say that six months pass between the scene where Vader stabs Starkiller through the torso and when he awakens on the Empirical. The same about of time passes between the two games, so Vader would have had the exact same amount of time to grow the first clone.

I'm not convinced either way, I'm just saying. I think it's a theory with a lot of merit, but I'm neither for nor against it at this point. More information is needed.


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Old 11-09-2010, 06:45 PM   #48
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Of course there is. What's Vader after? The Rebellion, right? And where's Kota taking him? To the Rebels' secret base. Kota is not only showing Vader where the base is, he's actually bringing him there. Now I wouldn't say that's a terribly bright idea even with Vader securly bound, but with an invisible evil Starkiller skulking around? Wanna bet he stowed away on board the Rogue Shadow? You see where this is going?
Exactly.

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Hm... now that's either a gigantic coincidence, or the writers may not be quite as incompetent as they seem. If I recall correctly, in TFU1 the enemies on the Empirical referred to the newly revived Starkiller as subject 1138. Now in TFU2 on Kamino they say that subject 1138 has returned to Kamino. Perhaps Starkiller's been dead since halfway through TFU1 and we've been playing a clone all along.
Considering that the player is the real Starkiller all throughout TFU1 and 2, I think it's a coincidence. I mean, yeah there's that big question now since that picture, but I have a feeling that they used the Sith Training gear costume to portray that body as the original Starkiller. That's the first outfit we've ever seen Starkiller in, so it's just a tool to tell people that "that's TFU real Starkiller, and there's TFU2 clone Starkiller".

That's what I think, but if they used the Jedi Adventurer robes, the one he "died" in at the end of TFU1, then I think it would be more of an obvious sign they're telling us that we're playing as the clone, or that Vader's more of a master of lying than we thought.

But I don't think there's any clone-business going on in TFU1 at all. Definitely something going on in TFU2, but not 1. Clones need time to grow. If I'm not mistaken, after Starkiller gets stabbed in TFU1 by Vader, when he wakes up it's been 6 months. That's what I've heard. And Starkiller's inbetween the ages of 20-25 or something. So growing a clone to that age in 6 months. So If this is the same clone in TFU2, 6 more months later, we should be controlling a middle-aged man.

Despite what the TFU1 novel said, how his spirit floated up into space or something, I'm still guessing that it's the real Starkiller we're dealing with in TFU2. Like a question brought up earlier, how could Juno love another man. I don't know about cloning and the Force, but Star Wars doesn't mess around with love.


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Old 11-09-2010, 06:51 PM   #49
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But I don't think there's any clone-business going on in TFU1 at all. Definitely something going on in TFU2, but not 1. Clones need time to grow. If I'm not mistaken, after Starkiller gets stabbed in TFU1 by Vader, when he wakes up it's been 6 months. That's what I've heard. And Starkiller's inbetween the ages of 20-25 or something. So growing a clone to that age in 6 months. So If this is the same clone in TFU2, 6 more months later, we should be controlling a middle-aged man.
I just spoke to that one post above yours: The exact same amount of time passes between that event in the first game and the first two games. Six months and six months. And it's age-accelerated.

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Despite what the TFU1 novel said, how his spirit floated up into space or something, I'm still guessing that it's the real Starkiller we're dealing with in TFU2. Like a question brought up earlier, how could Juno love another man. I don't know about cloning and the Force, but Star Wars doesn't mess around with love.
But Star Wars is also pretty big on the whole certain-point-of-view theme. Kota said it all when he said he was starting to think that whether or not Starkiller was a clone was irrelevant. He is the same man with the same memories and life experiences. It's like his life, which was cut off prematurely, has been given the chance to continue from where it left off.


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Old 11-10-2010, 02:16 AM   #50
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And wouldn't he need time to grow? That doesn't fit.
Well we don't know how much time passed between Starkiller getting stabbed and waking up on the Empirical, do we? Plus I wouldn't put it past Vader to already have the project running while Starkiller was alive, so he may have had clones ready already.

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Considering that the player is the real Starkiller all throughout TFU1 and 2, I think it's a coincidence.
Do we know that for sure?

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I mean, yeah there's that big question now since that picture, but I have a feeling that they used the Sith Training gear costume to portray that body as the original Starkiller. That's the first outfit we've ever seen Starkiller in, so it's just a tool to tell people that "that's TFU real Starkiller, and there's TFU2 clone Starkiller".
Yeah, you're probably right. I have a tendency to overthink this stuff. I have a feeling it's the same thing as parts 2 and 3 of the Matrix trilogy. When the second one came out I started thinking about it and thought it had a really cool, well thought out story, but then the third one came out and proved me totally wrong.

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If this is the same clone in TFU2, 6 more months later, we should be controlling a middle-aged man.
I would imagine the accelerated aging works only while the clone is in the tank.
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Old 11-10-2010, 11:28 AM   #51
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Well we don't know how much time passed between Starkiller getting stabbed and waking up on the Empirical, do we?
Yes we do: Six months. I've said it many times.


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Old 11-10-2010, 01:38 PM   #52
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If i remember,in the novel it states he was out for six months,then the novel goes to say it took another 6 more months to track down Kota,but in the game i dont think its said anywhere in terms of time,at least as far as i remember.
The game plays out as if he woke up just minutes after being stabbed in the chest by vader and it only takes him 10 minutes to track down kota in cloud city.
There is no time frame in the game as to how long events took,at least for me,not to start another war here just stating how things were in the first novel.

I guess what needs to be asked is if it happened in the novel does it mean that it also happened in the game?

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Old 11-10-2010, 05:26 PM   #53
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I think it's mentioned that Starkiller tracked him across several planets, so it's reasonable to assume it took him a while. But how long he was out after being stabbed, that isn't stated anywhere. However, Juno is still scheduled for execution when he wakes up, which to my mind implies it didn't take very long. If he'd been out for six months, I'm guessing she'd have been long dead by the time he woke up.
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Old 11-10-2010, 06:49 PM   #54
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Do we know that for sure?
Bad word choice again on my part. I meant more like "If we assume he's the real Starkiller, then it would be a coincidence."


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I would imagine the accelerated aging works only while the clone is in the tank.
They modify the genes of the clones so that they grow faster depending on how they modified it. The Clone Troopers in Episode II age twice as fast as normal. So when they're 10 they're physically 20. Whether or not they're in the tank still or not, they grow faster no matter what.

I find it weird that there's a possibility that the Starkiller we play as in TFU2 might be a clone. I still don't quite know but Starkiller's within the age range of 20-25 like I said before. If he's a 6-month-old clone and he's physically 20-25, then he might die off from just old-age before Episode IV. It just doesn't make sense to me if he is a clone. It's also strange to me that we don't see any younger clones in the cloning tanks at all unless Vader just made one batch.


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Old 11-10-2010, 07:07 PM   #55
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This is from the Wookieepedia entry for Galen Marek:

Betrayal and resurrection

After informing his master of Shaak Ti's death, Vader told him to return to the Executor immediately, for the time had come to face the Emperor. As Starkiller was aboard the Executor, the Emperor's fleet arrived. Starkiller believed that Vader had lured Sidious to them, but Vader revealed that he did not summon him. As the confused Sith apprentice turned to see PROXY entering the room in the form of Darth Sidious, he was brutally stabbed through the back by the very man who raised him, as Vader angrily stated that the Emperor's spies had followed him there. Darth Sidious commanded Vader to finish off Starkiller and prove his loyalty. Despite Starkiller's pleadings, Vader turned on him, telekinetically ravaging him around the command bridge before finally hurling him through the view port windows. While his body lifelessly drifted through space, a lone Viper probe droid swiveled by, picked him up and took him to a hidden location.

Escape from the Empire

"Your destiny is now your own. Sever all ties to your past. No one must know that you still serve me. Now go. And remember that the dark side is always with you."

―Darth Vader —

Approximately six months later, Starkiller awoke once more. As it turned out, Vader had rescued him, sending out a droid to recover his body, and brought him to be "rebuilt" on Vader's personal science vessel, the Empirical.

here is the link:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galen_Marek


The other thing i do remember from the novel is that juno was in stasis in that time,where the stromtroopers would give her food every couple of months.

The following from junos entry in the wiki:

After defeating Jedi Master Shaak Ti on Felucia, Starkiller returned to his Master, only to discover that the Emperor had learned of his existence. Starkiller was betrayed, and seemingly killed, by Lord Vader at the behest of the Emperor. Afterward, Vader would declare Juno a traitor and have her imprisoned inside his science vessel, the Empirical, for six standard months.

The link just in case:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Juno_Eclipse


Now if the novel says six months passed and this entry says Approximately six months later,maybe it can be six monts later,but i guess it can be debated.

TFU 2 is just 6 months after the end of the first game..........
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Old 11-10-2010, 08:09 PM   #56
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Well this entry is based on the book. It's not like the SW wiki is any kind of authoritative source, it just compiles the info from the various SW media. If the writers are setting up a plot twist for the third game/novel but haven't revealed it yet, then the wiki would of course only have the set up but not the twist itself. So I think it's still very much up in the air whether or not Starkiller is a clone or not and when exactly he'd been cloned if he is. Several viable options, plus the ever present possibility that the writers will just pull something that doesn't make any sense out of their asses (see my mention of the Matrix films in my earlier post).
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Old 11-10-2010, 08:23 PM   #57
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I didn't read the novel..but the novel says it was PROXY posing as the Emperor, NOT the Emperor himself? If that's true, then it completely weakens the power of that scene to me. To me it was powerful because is was Darth Vader and Starkiller, his apprentice, and then the Emperor orders Vader, his apprentice, to kill Starkiller. Kinda confusing in that last sentence but just that Starkiller's master's master was there in front of him.


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Old 11-10-2010, 09:59 PM   #58
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I didn't read the novel..but the novel says it was PROXY posing as the Emperor, NOT the Emperor himself? If that's true, then it completely weakens the power of that scene to me. To me it was powerful because is was Darth Vader and Starkiller, his apprentice, and then the Emperor orders Vader, his apprentice, to kill Starkiller. Kinda confusing in that last sentence but just that Starkiller's master's master was there in front of him.
I highly doubt the emperor was proxy in that scene for two reasons...

1. If you notice proxy portraying a hologram, you'll have noticed that the character's voice of whom he portrays sounds similar to the original person but with a slight static sound in the background. Play it in high volume, you'll notice it. However no such static comes for the emperors voice, but i agree it doesn't come for vader as well. That's cause he already has his respirator assisted voice.

2. Once vader's done with starkiller and chucks him outta the window, you'll notice the emperor gives a brief but noticeable look to vader. That definetly suggests the emperor was present there at that point of time.


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Old 11-10-2010, 10:16 PM   #59
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Plus if it was Proxy acting (presumably) on Vader's orders, why would he keep cackling after Starkiller's been chucked out the window?
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Old 11-10-2010, 11:45 PM   #60
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I really hope you guys caught that it wasn't me that said it. I'm wondering from jedimike's post. Who in the world would put that on the wiki. I seriously think after someone posts an article that it should get locked until new media involved that character and they reopen it again and dot he same process because people are so stupid sometimes. I knew it had to be fake.


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Old 11-11-2010, 02:48 PM   #61
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I've also read on Wookieepedia that, according to Lucas Film, the novel takes precedent over the game. This means that any additional scenes that we see in the game--including the downloadable Jedi Temple mission, as well as the three other Temple missions from the PS2/PSP/Wii versions--are canonical as long they they don't contradict the book and can seemingly be integrated into the story.

It also means that any departures from the book's narrative seen in the game are instances of apocryphal storytelling and are not to be considered canon. For example, in the novel, PROXY is possessed by the planet Raxus Prime's collective consciousness known as the Core when he attacks Galen and takes on the form of Darth Maul (as well as Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker in the novel), whereas in the game he is simply seizing the opportunity to catch Galen unawares. By this logic, this particular scenario as seen in the game is not the correct version; the novel presents the correct narrative in regard to this discrepancy.

So the Force Unleashed novelizations are held to a higher standard than the games. It's sort of the opposite of the movie novelizations, where the films take precedence.

That said, it was indeed PROXY projecting the Emperor's image in the scene where Vader runs Galen through. But I don't see how that matters: It's still Palpatine confronting them, whether he's there physically or not. And since we know that Vader is powerful enough to execute his malevolent Force powers on someone via a projection, is there any doubt that Sidious isn't capable of doing the same? In that respect, even though Palpatine is not truly present, he may as well be. I have no doubt that he would have been completely free to execute any Force power or lightsaber combat technique in that scene through PROXY should Vader have made the wrong choice (with the possible exception of Force lightning, but you never know!).

It doesn't cheapen the scene. If anything, it shows just how powerful and capable Palpatine is.

And, to restate what I've been saying: Six months passed between that scene and the one where Galen is seemingly resurrected, and six months pass once again between the two games. I am not sure whether I believe Galen was restored to life the first time through cloning or not, but if he was, considering it will only take six months to grow his clones later on, I would say that it is definitely a strong possibility.


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Old 11-11-2010, 03:52 PM   #62
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"It doesn't cheapen the scene. If anything, it shows just how powerful and capable Palpatine is."

I don't know how you think that but I guess it's a point of view thing. I'd like to think that Palpatine's lightsaber style is un-copyable because it's too intricate and unpredictable. I mean PROXY doesn't have Mace Windu or Yoda so I wouldn't expect him to have Palpatine either.

For the cloning stuff though, I'd wager on the first game not having anything to do with clones at all. Only in the second is cloning a big part of the game.


"All too easy."
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Old 11-11-2010, 05:01 PM   #63
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Yeah, I don't really see how Palpatine being present via what is nothing more than a glorified video phone call makes him more badass either.
Plus there's the problem of the Force. Force-sensitives can sense other Force-sensitives. I find it hard to belive Starkiller wouldn't pick up on the fact that the figure in front of him isn't really a Sith lord.
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Old 11-11-2010, 09:10 PM   #64
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Well, he's kind of lying there dying, having just been impaled. I'd say that's probably what's occupying most of his concentration.


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Old 11-11-2010, 10:45 PM   #65
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Still though...it seriously changes the scene where Starkiller's "killed" but in the light side ending when Kota's like, "Let it go" and Galen says, "He deserves to die for what he's done to me".

Palpatine came in the room and Vader stabbed him in the back, slammed him against the walls, and flung him into space to make it look like he killed him. Starkiller had a grudge against Palpatine in his mind I bet because of what he caused and then to find out it was actually PROXY? Out of all the extra details and content the book has over the game, I think I'm going to try and disregard this one...


"All too easy."
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Old 11-12-2010, 12:05 AM   #66
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Dude, you know that all of the things you mentioned are still true, right? It was Palpatine, not PROXY, that betrayed Galen in that scene, and it was Palpatine, not PROXY, whom Galen wished to kill for what he did to him. PROXY's body only served as a communicational means. It's no different from the Emperor being present via holovid, only more realistic.

Why does it matter that PROXY's body served as the go-between? It doesn't take any of the blame away from Palpatine. PROXY wasn't in control at that point.


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Old 11-12-2010, 07:32 AM   #67
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Well, he's kind of lying there dying, having just been impaled. I'd say that's probably what's occupying most of his concentration.
True, but he still thought he and Vader could defeat Palpatine, so he apparently didn't consider the gaping hole in his chest to be much of a handicap.
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Old 11-15-2010, 12:02 AM   #68
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Not bad, not bad at all!

Just throwing in my on the game. I just bought this yesterday and beat it in one night. Although short I must say that I really enjoyed the game. Everything about it was much better than the first one. And the challenge levels, IMO, make up for how short it was.



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MidwanjontŻ ch‚tsatul nu asha.
AshajontŻ kotswinot itsu nuyak.
Wonoksh Qy‚sik nun.
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Old 11-15-2010, 04:05 AM   #69
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I'm a Star Wars Nutjob, but I was so disappointed with it, I cant bring myself to play from the last save point to see the alternate ending... TFU I was light-years ahead of this in every way


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Old 11-15-2010, 09:17 AM   #70
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TFU I was light-years ahead of this in every way
It's all about this folks. They should have stayed with the first one only. This sequel was too forced.



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Old 11-15-2010, 11:38 AM   #71
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Or they could've made it, y'know, good. Which to my mind would mean making it at least five times as long, not cutting the story off just as it's starting to get good, making it not annoying in every single possible way especially in terms of the new enemies, and getting rid of that damn pause when you hit stuff. Even though the game runs perfectly smooth on my system, it still feels choppy because of that. Gawd, what idiot thought that was a good idea...

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Old 11-15-2010, 10:15 PM   #72
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I'm a Star Wars Nutjob, but I was so disappointed with it, I cant bring myself to play from the last save point to see the alternate ending... TFU I was light-years ahead of this in every way
Definitely an opinionated statement. People had some pretty outlandish standards for this game if they expected it to just blow the first game out of the water. As for being light-years ahead in every way, the graphics and game mechanics of TFU2 are for a FACT improved over the first, everything else is a matter of taste.

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It's all about this folks. They should have stayed with the first one only. This sequel was too forced.
Don't get me wrong, while the story and game overall was short and everything, I loved it while it lasted and I'll OCCASIONALLY play it after I get the last achievement I need for it. But, the game did seem kind of forced. They could've just finished with TFU1, but now I think they have no choice but to release a TFU3 since the cliffhanger they left.

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Or they could've made it, y'know, good. Which to my mind would mean making it at least five times as long, not cutting the story off just as it's starting to get good, making it not annoying in every single possible way especially in terms of the new enemies, and getting rid of that damn pause when you hit stuff. Even though the game runs perfectly smooth on my system, it still feels choppy because of that. Gawd, what idiot thought that was a good idea...
I feel sorry for you PC-version owners. The 360 and PS3 versions are perfectly smooth AND not-choppy at all.


"All too easy."
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Old 11-15-2010, 10:41 PM   #73
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I feel sorry for you PC-version owners. The 360 and PS3 versions are perfectly smooth AND not-choppy at all.
I'm not talking about choppy as in low framerate. I mean that split second pause that happens whenever you hit an enemy with your sabers. It's not framerate stutter, the game runs perfectly smooth the whole time, it's just a momentary pause in the character's animation. TFU1 had it too and as far as I can tell from the videos it's present in the console versions as well. I can only assume it's something they did on purpose, but the reasoning behind it completely escapes me.
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