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Old 07-14-2006, 11:31 PM   #1
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Did Yoda succumb to Dark Side Temptation?

In slowly writing my Yoda's Master fiction (shameless plug), i started a rather heated debate with some friends about my interpretation of the Senate Arena battle.

At the very end of the fight, just before Yoda is flung to the floor, he struggles against Sidious's powerful lightning and I think it was pretty evident that he couldn't block it much longer.

However, the camera focuses in on Yoda and in a final burst of strength he repels the lightning and makes his escape......However on thing about the scene bugs me...and give rise to my interpretation.

The camera focus on Yoda's eyes and then flashes to Sidous who in mid cackle makes a choking cry of pain. Most see this has his surprise at Yoda's last ditch efforts...I see it though as Yoda succumbing ever so slightly to the Dark side. I see it as Yoda initating a Force Choke.

I think it's suiting in a way, showing that not even the mightiest escaped the darkness tainting the Republic, and it makes Yoda's words to Organa all that much more sad and poigant, in addition adding a deeper reason for going into solitary exile.

What are your thoughts?
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Old 07-15-2006, 01:32 AM   #2
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no.

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Old 07-15-2006, 05:16 AM   #3
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My thoughts? Yoda suprised Palpatine by managing to repel such a powerful attack.

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Old 07-15-2006, 06:45 AM   #4
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No. I don't think Yoda would do that. It is a interesting interpretation you've made but I just don't think Yoda would... He's too good.




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Old 07-15-2006, 07:40 AM   #5
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Yoda is the epitome of incorruptible good in the Star Wars universe. Sidious and Yoda are on exact opposite extreme sides of the spectrum of good and evil; they are foils. So Yoda is as likely to do the least bit of evil as Palpatine something benevolent.

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Old 07-15-2006, 12:20 PM   #6
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Does it really matter whether you kill/hurt someone with a lightsaber/Force Push or by using "Dark-side" powers?

Some EU says that the powers themselves are not good or evil, it's how you use them.
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Old 07-15-2006, 01:57 PM   #7
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how does it scare u? i think the lightning was reflecting off yoda's eyes (someone else may have put that but i dont read every post.......)


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Old 07-15-2006, 03:56 PM   #8
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To the Opening Poster:

Yoda is as capable of any Jedi at being "tempted." I think that's an easy enough assumption. Anakin, Luke, Count Dooku.... but not Yoda? I mean sure he's old and powerful, but so is Palpatine.

Write your fan fiction and do whatever you want. Honestly that moment never had me pegged as a "Dark Side moment" but who knew what he was thinking? To my mind the scene with him and Dooku in the hangar in AOTC is a stronger candidate, but who knows, write what you want. Lucas isn't tell you what to do in your story... right?

People have written crazier fan fics out there, so if you can do it, I say do it.

The thing is, so many of us have been trained by the "brain bug" of the video games, to think that certain powers are only usable by "Dark Jedi" (or Sith) and others only by "Lightside" Jedi. Luke chokes two Gammorean guards in Jabba's palace. Did he get tempted by the Dark Side in that moment? The movie leaves it wide open and never tells us (though the books might have said a thing or two, I'm fairly sure the novel says he did indeed choke them, not just "make them fall asleep" or something).

Likewise, Yoda uses lightning in AOTC, according to the movie. People refuse to believe this, insisting that lightning is only a darkside power, which they've learned from the video games and RPG's. Sure, the ROTJ novelisation calls it "evil lightning" (iirc) and something Luke thought was a "corrupt use" of the Force. However remember how many "rules" we thought we knew were overturned in the prequels. Look at what a warrior Yoda was, despite his apparent disdain for the use of violence except in self defense in ESB. Look at how fast the old Jedi move in battle, despite Lucas' previous explanation that Ben and Vader had to fight slowly on the Death Star because they were "old Jedi, and one of them was a cripple... so it was a hard fight."

And Yoda himself isn't infallible or all powerful. Remember the mistakes he made? Remember how he misjudged people, and ran away from combat? He looked a bit angry when he killed those troopers on Kashyyyk too, now that I think of it... and who wouldn't be, there had just been a purge of the Jedi generals, and he was next. Yoda thought nobody could come back from the Dark Side, but Anakin did. He thought Luke facing Vader on Bespin would "destroy all for what they had fought and suffered" (the Rebellion), but that didn't happen either.

The EU writers have long looked for ways to find "loopholes" to get "good" Jedi to use force lightning. So they invent stuff like "electrict justice" (or whatever its called) and have people be "tempted" but come back after they've used their power, etc.

If using Force Push in combat against a foe is "Dark Side" then tons of the Jedi are guilty. If using force choke on a living foe is "Dark Side" then Luke is guilty. If attacking somebody first is "Dark Side" then lots of the Jedi are guilty. Etc...

Is this a "what if" story? Again, if so, no problem there at all.

I mean, let's face it, you could write a story in which Obi-Wan Kenobi is a closeted homosexual. As long as it's well written, even if the idea seems silly, why not, right? Unless you start selling it, or Lucas sends you a Cease and Desist Order, all's fair...


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Old 07-15-2006, 06:53 PM   #9
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In my opinion, there are no dark or light force powers...it's how you use them...in most cases...and this is one of those cases...



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Old 07-15-2006, 07:13 PM   #10
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When did Yoda use force lightning in AOTC? I thought he only reflected Dooku's bursts. guess I need to watch it again.

In any case you are right the force powers themselves aren't necessarily good or evil, but there is such a strong and vastly differing intent that in sometimes the difference becomes almost invisible.

Case in point force choke/lightning the intent of these powers is to take life a painfully as possible. While both sides take life in the course of fulfilling duty, a pure Lightsider strives not to inflict anymore pain than absolutly necessary. Which makes it unlikely that for Lightsider to use such a power unless they are so estranged from normality that they fell it necessary. Which opens the gateway to toehr things, enjoying the release of power, the joy of inflicting harm on such a hated enemy, etc, which could turn them to the Darkside.

Or at least that's my interpretation.. Maybe i have been working at my stories too much . My story...assuming i ever get it finished, is mroe about Yoda, as it is about his Master. The part of the story that brought the whole debate was my fictionalizing the Arena battle, with Yoda's memories about His Master and his gray teachings.

In that moment of desperation when the entire fate of the Republic rested upon his shoulders, he saw truth in what his master said and gave into his anger, Force choking Sidious....but only briefly before shock at his actions set in, opening him completly to the burst.

And then so on and so on.. It going very very very slowly.
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Old 07-16-2006, 04:41 AM   #11
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i don't think Luke felt any joy in choking those 2 gammoreans. he just did that to get them out of his way. If he was planning to bust everyone out, he could have just strode in the palace with his lightsaber and killed everyone.
and do you remember the Mace-Sidious duel? sidious' lightning was arcing back on himself off of Mace's saber. the same thing might have happened if you really stick by Yoda doing something to Sidious, but i say he was just surprised that Yoda could survive under the assault.


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Old 07-16-2006, 05:10 AM   #12
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I would say, in regards to ROTS, Yoda was never tempted by the dark side, just as Sidious wasn't redeemable to the light. It would make the film too complicated and philosophical. =D
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Old 07-16-2006, 01:04 PM   #13
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exactly.
try seeing Yoda as a Dark Lord of the Sith? he would pwn the frikin' galaxy!

"Kill you , i will," is just not imaginable from him.


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Old 07-16-2006, 05:42 PM   #14
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I should make a distinction between "tempted" and "fell to the dark side."

There's a difference. I'm saying Yoda could and probably was tempted. I never said he actually became evil/darkside or a Sith. But write your fan fic anyway you want to.



Yoda blocking lightning:



Yoda throwing lightning:


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Old 07-16-2006, 06:45 PM   #15
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I don't think he could succumb to the darkside, Yoda is the impersonation of what a Jedi should be.

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Old 07-17-2006, 03:22 AM   #16
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o.0 Oy. I wasnt trying to make Yoda fall to the darkside. I was just exploring making him less perfect, showing that even he had foibles but overcame them. Which i think makes him a better character.

About the lightning...unless I'm looking at it wrong. Yoda doesn't use Lightning in the Dooku fight. He absorbs Dooku's burst into a orb and then redirects it away. He doesn't make it himself.
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Old 07-17-2006, 05:14 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RC 1162
exactly.
try seeing Yoda as a Dark Lord of the Sith? he would pwn the frikin' galaxy!

"Kill you , i will," is just not imaginable from him.
That would make a cool non-canonical web comic.....only I'd skip the religion factor and have Yoda simply convert because the dark side "awesome it is"
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Old 07-17-2006, 03:09 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoesGuy
"awesome it is"

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Old 11-13-2006, 07:57 PM   #19
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Old 11-13-2006, 10:50 PM   #20
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I know this was posted a long time ago, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Likewise, Yoda uses lightning in AOTC, according to the movie.
That is your interpretation of what you see. However, in the novelization, which is just as high g-canon, we are told that this isn't the case:

"More lightning poured forth from Dooku's hand, but Yoda continued to catch it and turn it, and seemed to become even more settled in his defensive posture...Dooku disengaged his futile lightning assault."

and in the similar case from ROTS:

"The shadow could feel how much it cost the little green freak to bend back his lightnings into the cage of energy that enclosed them both; the creature had reached the limits of its strength."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
People refuse to believe this, insisting that lightning is only a darkside power
Which we are flat out told in the AOTC commentary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
which they've learned from the video games and RPG's.
and from Lucas directly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
Sure, the ROTJ novelisation calls it "evil lightning" (iirc)
"Sith Lightning" and "dark side power" are the terms Lucas used, and he mentions that he had Dooku display that power to make it clear to the audience that he was now indeed a user of the dark side and member of the Sith, and not just a Jedi who disagreed politically from the Jedi Order.

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Old 11-14-2006, 04:06 AM   #21
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In the book Yoda Dark Rendezvous, A Clone Wars Novel, by Sean Stewart, Count Dooku actually does attempt to turn Yoda to the dark side. Whether intentional or not Yoda reveals a 'dark side' to himself and Dooku realises that if Yoda was ever to turn to the dark side Sidious would be annihilated.

I personally believe that Yoda didn't turn to the dark side when confronting Sidious, although this may give another reason why after fleeing Yoda exiled himself in disgrace. I was under the impression also that Yoda was merely stopping the lightning and then forcing it back at its creator. This may be why Sidious was surprised, because Yoda was able to force the lightning back at him with such strangth.

Another note towards Luke choking the guards is that at the time ROTJ was created force powers hadn't yet been divided to 'light' and 'dark' sides. Also, Luke hadn't had proper jedi training so may have just been using the force to his benefit, not thinking that some actions may have been considered 'dark'.
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Old 11-18-2006, 01:41 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mivoci1
Never say never
Never.


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Old 12-19-2006, 04:26 PM   #23
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Never say never ... again
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Old 12-20-2006, 03:57 AM   #24
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I would say no. even though i havnt seen the battle in awhile I would
wish to give some of my oppinions. Firstly Yoda is considered the leader of
all that is good and sidious the big baddie of evil.
So to prove this while yoda and obi were at the temple obi saying that he
didnt want to face anikan but instead wanted to face sidious yoda replies
somthing like that you are not strong enough to face him either in the force
,pyhsical or both. So yoda goes and faces him but even yoda couldnt have
beaten him. Heck if he was younger than he was sure I can see him beating him
but idk if age was the factor. You saw yoda reflect the force with his hands
a ability that none of the other jedi did. So obviously yoda was there best
chance if any to defeat sidious. I tend to think that sidious was in utter
horror of yoda stopping his attacks of lightning in the end. And besides
how can yoda grip him if both hands are tied up reflecting or
stopping sidious' lightning attacks? Besides even though some1 frowns doesnt mean he was doing anything evil. When we saw yoda in each battle he was what you can see as frowning. This scene this utter determination
that was shown of yoda was his last ditch effort to defeat sidious and
it didnt work due to sidious being to good. didnt work maybe for a variety of reasons. 1 because the sequals. 2 age could deffinatley be a factor. (Imagine when yoda was younger Its an old guy taking on hmm idk how old sidious is but he deffinately had agility. Not saying yoda didnt but cmon yoda was old im pretty sure he had some nice aches after that battle. So when senator organa showed
yoda sounded disapointed because he couldnt stop him which equals
no one could thus the republic ended.
I tend to think the jedi went in hiding because they couldnt stop the threat
even with how good they were. You can say they thought ahead of
some events which needed to happen and if didnt the galaxy would be
forever lost.
On Lukes choking incadent. Hey cmon these are gamoreans to stupid to persuade.
so first thing on there minds would be to anihalate the intruder so waht he gonna
do. Im pretty much sure Luke had to show an impression to that twilak so
he will take him to jabba.
On considered light darkside powers. Hey can you possibly imagine a light side
person use lightning? or choke? lightning and choke can be considered
bad powers due to there intent. Choke and lightning mean to do harm to
a living being. So I guess you can say im a its how you use them type.
LIght doesnt use them as tools for power etc while darkside does.


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Old 12-20-2006, 10:54 AM   #25
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Yes, he did, as is stated in Dark Rendezvous
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Old 12-20-2006, 02:30 PM   #26
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Question Yoda probes the Dark Side?! Mace uses the Dark Side in Vapaad?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
I know this was posted a long time ago, but...

That is your interpretation of what you see. However, in the novelization, which is just as high g-canon, we are told that this isn't the case:
Except despite the status of the novel, if any part of it contradicts what we see in the actual movie, the movie wins, hands down.

Quote:
"More lightning poured forth from Dooku's hand, but Yoda continued to catch it and turn it, and seemed to become even more settled in his defensive posture...Dooku disengaged his futile lightning assault."
"Turn it"? Turn it into light side lightning? Bounce it back? It's a little vague, anyway. Visuals win... and anyway we know VFX gets tweaked long after the novel has been published.

Quote:
and in the similar case from ROTS:

"The shadow could feel how much it cost the little green freak to bend back his lightnings into the cage of energy that enclosed them both; the creature had reached the limits of its strength."
Except the VFX for the confrontation in Episode III and II are DIFFERENT. In ROTS Yoda never throws a bolt of lightning at Sideous. He does do that against Dooku however.

Quote:
Which we are flat out told in the AOTC commentary.
Which, despite it being from Lucas's own lips, if it contradicts the movies, doesn't help us. He also calls the Imperials "Nazis" and mispronounces various names in the Star Wars universe, and so forth. This doesn't really prove anything beyond his stated intentions, circa 2002-2004.

Quote:
and from Lucas directly.
And Lucas is notorious for changing his mind, hence why the movies are really the best guide to what is going on, not Lucas's statements about them (not that these statements aren't helpful of course).

Quote:
"Sith Lightning" and "dark side power" are the terms Lucas used, and he mentions that he had Dooku display that power to make it clear to the audience that he was now indeed a user of the dark side and member of the Sith, and not just a Jedi who disagreed politically from the Jedi Order.
But he fails to explain Yoda's using of Lightning in the commentary. Lightning is never discussed in the movies themselves, so even the term "Force/Sith/Lightning" and even the term "force power" are never used by any Star Wars character.

Essentially the "dark/light side powers" are a game mechanic invented for the RPG and picked up by some EU writers. It makes for handy conversation, but it doesn't really accurately describe the movies. Otherwise we have canon examples of "Light Jedi" using "Dark Side powers" and yet not falling to the Dark Side (Luke choking people with the Force, Yoda throwing lightning at a person).

Even the games are not completely consistent either, since Mysteries of the Sith lets you use both kinds of powers and remain completely on the "light side" (another term which never shows up in the movies) and Jedi Academy's single player does the same (but not multiplayer).

The EU also has examples of a "Light" version of Lightning. It also of course makes it sound like turning to the Dark Side is a weekly occurence and isn't too hard to turn back from (despite Yoda thinking it was impossible to turn back from the Dark Side in the classic Trilogy, and the shock when Anakin is able to be turned back).

Yoda threw lightning in AOTC. That much is certain. The question is how we explain it, if we want to also simultaneously believe that using lightning is something only "Sith" can do, can only be generated by the Dark Side, and somehow makes you evil.


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Old 12-20-2006, 03:32 PM   #27
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couple of disagreements

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterRoss08
Firstly Yoda is considered the leader of
all that is good and sidious the big baddie of evil.
True, however one of the points of the Prequels was also to show that
the Jedi made mistakes and may even have been succumbing to corruption.

Look at the anger in Mace Windu's eyes when he is about to murder Palpatine
in Episode III. Not exactly ideal Jedi behavior there! And Yoda preaches against
war and violence with the Force in ESB, but in the prequels he doesn't seem
to quite have such a problem with it...

Sideous is evil, yes, but that doesn't mean his opponents are perfect either (I am not defending the bad guys here, just saying the Jedi aren't perfectly good, otherwise you'd think they would have caught onto the plot sooner and stopped it).

Quote:
So to prove this while yoda and obi were at the temple obi saying that he
didnt want to face anikan but instead wanted to face sidious yoda replies
somthing like that you are not strong enough to face him either in the force
,pyhsical or both.
What I don't get is why they didn't BOTH go to face Sideous or Anakin. Surely both of them together would have been more powerful. Wipe out one Sith then the other, rather than splitting up. The good guys had no problem "ganging up" on their opponents before, why suddenly the more honorable approach of making it "fair" with a balanced battle? I never understood that.

And it's not as if Anakin was in a rush to get back to Sideous, he seemed like he was content to just hang around and brood after killing the Seperatists on Mustafar. Sideous didn't even consider going to him until he sensed he was in danger.

Quote:
So yoda goes and faces him but even yoda couldnt have
beaten him. Heck if he was younger than he was sure I can see him beating him
but idk if age was the factor. You saw yoda reflect the force with his hands
a ability that none of the other jedi did.
True, although in the novelisation of ROTJ, Luke bends back Palpatine's lightning with his hand, for a second or two, before he is overwhelmed.

Other Jedi seem able to block lightning with their lightsabers only.

Quote:
So obviously yoda was there best
chance if any to defeat sidious. I tend to think that sidious was in utter
horror of yoda stopping his attacks of lightning in the end. And besides
how can yoda grip him if both hands are tied up reflecting or
stopping sidious' lightning attacks?
True, but if he'd hung onto his lightsaber perhaps he could have been better off. And if he'd had Obi-Wan at his side, then it wouldn't matter if both his hands were "occupied"! He'd have Obi-Wan's two hands to help him.

Obviously it was a creative decision because Lucas wanted two simultaneous saber battles going on, but still...

Quote:
Besides even though some1 frowns doesnt mean he was doing anything evil.
I'm saying Force Lightning isn't always evil, hence I have no problem with Yoda using it, even if it might be some "unorthodox" or sneaky tactic according to Jedi doctrine. The battle with Sideous was far more desperate than the one with Dooku, yet Yoda uses this ability (to THROW lightning) only in the less dire situation... why?

This is only a problem for the people who say that "Force Lightning" is an evil Dark Side power that only Sith or high level Dark Jedi can use. Thus they have to explain why Yoda seems to throw a bolt of lightning AT Dooku. Not only is that an offensive use of Force, but it's also supposedly a power that only the bad guys can use with impunity. Thus they have a problem. It doesn't really bother me anymore than Luke choking Gammoreans or Qui Gon pushing droids around.

Quote:
Its an old guy taking on hmm idk how old sidious is but he deffinately had agility.
Palpatine is supposed to be about 63 years old in Episode III (assuming the "official" age of him given in TPM of 50 was accurate).

Dooku was supposed to be over 80 in Episode III and yet he's super powerful and moves faster than any old man could. Yoda hobbles with a cane! We know that the Force can make old infirm people move like the world's greatest acrobats and olympians. And just look at the Force combos that Dooku uses in Episode III.. very impressive! So mere physical age is not the sole determining factor in how these battles turn out, yes.

Quote:
So when senator organa showed
yoda sounded disapointed because he couldnt stop him which equals
no one could thus the republic ended.
But had Obi-Wan helped him, I wonder if it would have turned out differently. It seems like Yoda didn't think his plan through completely. Likewise, why did he give up? He didn't seem that badly beaten, and surely the arrival of a few stormtroopers wouldn't have been that much more challenging (look how easily Yoda dispatches them at other times, and Dooku's super battle droid escorts proved no challenge for Obi-Wan earlier).

Quote:
I tend to think the jedi went in hiding because they couldnt stop the threat
even with how good they were.
But they could still fight! Nothing really changed in 20 years except they got old and older and then they had to rely on a barely trained kid to fight for them? It seems like their chances for victory were greater in Episode III than IV-VI!

Plus, what would have stopped Obi-Wan and Yoda from BOTH going to Dagobah or Tatooine or Alderaan and raising the two children there, from birth? Pooling their resources? They only ended up training Luke anyway, so it's not like they would be putting all their eggs in one basket.

Quote:
On Lukes choking incadent. Hey cmon these are gamoreans to stupid to persuade.
I don't believe it. Obi-Wan informs Luke that the "weak minded" are precisely the best kind of people to trick with the Force. And AOTC proves that Anakin can even manipulate a wild beast (if you want to say the Gammoreans are like mindless animals or something rather than like people). And it's not like aliens (non-humans) can't be tricked, because Luke persuades Bib Fortuna (who is surely stronger willed than those Gammoreans, right?) soon after (and we get Boss Nass being tricked in TPM... apart from Stormtroopers and the Deathstick salesman, those are the only characters that have been tricked, Watto and Jabba seemed immune).

Quote:
so first thing on there minds would be to anihalate the intruder so waht he gonna
do.
We don't know that, they may just have wanted to arrest him (notice they just put up their spears to stop his approach, not start swinging/thrusting at him). Yoda reacts in a similar fashion to the Red guards in Episode III, except he Force slams them both into the wall, rather than choking them individually.

Quote:
Im pretty much sure Luke had to show an impression to that twilak so
he will take him to jabba.
Except Luke was already practically in the inner chamber when he tricked Fortuna (I'm sure he could have found his way the few steps to the main audience chamber), and Bib didn't lead him anywhere, he just went back to his place by Jabba.

Quote:
On considered light darkside powers. Hey can you possibly imagine a light side
person use lightning?
I don't need to imagine it, I see Yoda do it in AOTC. The games also show us "Light Jedi" throwing lightning, and we see some form of green lightning described in some of the EU (I believe it's in the New Jedi Order series, but I haven't read those).

Quote:
or choke?
Even without the games, I don't need to imagine it since we see Luke do it in ROTJ.

Quote:
lightning and choke can be considered
bad powers due to there intent. Choke and lightning mean to do harm to
a living being.
And Force push or throwing your lightsaber into their chest aren't? C'mon.

What if your intention was to choke them unconscious to incapacitate (rather than kill), or to use lightning to stun them (like a stun gun) rather than kill?

Which is nobler, to slice off somebody's arm with a charred stump, or to make their clothes a little toasty and their hand stand on end?

Quote:
So I guess you can say im a its how you use them type.
LIght doesnt use them as tools for power etc while darkside does.
Well, you could still use force and other powers for "power." Jedi have no problem with mind trick, and that could be abused to have authority over others pretty easily. Qui Gon showed us that Jedi can cheat at dice, meaning they could clean out any casino and achieve vast wealth! (and if somebody catches you cheating, just mind trick them, heh).


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Old 12-20-2006, 08:20 PM   #28
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Ok i gotta admit you got me there Kurg
Quote:
Sideous is evil, yes, but that doesn't mean his opponents are perfect either (I am not defending the bad guys here, just saying the Jedi aren't perfectly good, otherwise you'd think they would have caught onto the plot sooner and stopped it).
true! This is why Sideous was such a sneak. I tend to believe that Sideous
tricked all the jedi only revealing to anikan just because of the circumstance he
was in

Quote:
But they could still fight! Nothing really changed in 20 years except they got old and older and then they had to rely on a barely trained kid to fight for them? It seems like their chances for victory were greater in Episode III than IV-VI!

Plus, what would have stopped Obi-Wan and Yoda from BOTH going to Dagobah or Tatooine or Alderaan and raising the two children there, from birth? Pooling their resources? They only ended up training Luke anyway, so it's not like they would be putting all their eggs in one basket.
Ah so many uncertanties this is where the tv series comes in. All or
most of are answers will be revealed. Plus Anikan didnt know that his kids survived
thus palpatine revealing to him. Heck even palpatine prob didnt know till
later on when Luke revealed himself. But we dont know so hopefully the
series will shed some light on that.


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Old 12-21-2006, 04:19 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurgan
What I don't get is why they didn't BOTH go to face Sideous or Anakin. Surely both of them together would have been more powerful. Wipe out one Sith then the other, rather than splitting up. The good guys had no problem "ganging up" on their opponents before, why suddenly the more honorable approach of making it "fair" with a balanced battle? I never understood that.
maybe they wanted to get with it ASAP? it could be a case of impatience for Yoda to get rid of the sith. you could see the resolution in his tone when he said "destroy the sith we must" to Obi Wan. but yeah, you do make a good point. if they had ganged on palpy, then there would have been no problem with anakin as he was still a n00b to the dark side.

Quote:
True, although in the novelisation of ROTJ, Luke bends back Palpatine's lightning with his hand, for a second or two, before he is overwhelmed.

Other Jedi seem able to block lightning with their lightsabers only.
but its not exactly that they lack the capacity. just that they didn't have the time or didn't want to bother using the force that much, very clearly shown when Obi Wan was facing Dooku in EP2.

Quote:
True, but if he'd hung onto his lightsaber perhaps he could have been better off. And if he'd had Obi-Wan at his side, then it wouldn't matter if both his hands were "occupied"! He'd have Obi-Wan's two hands to help him.
as far as i know, he dropped his blade when Sidious blasted at him with lightning. the thing here is, why didn't he see that coming? Jedi have foresight, don't they? i admit, Yoda did talk a lot about "clouded, the future is" and even so, Jedi are supposed to recover from any situation quickly. to think he just let his saber go was beyond me, especially against someone who was as powerful as Sidious. although, i think Sidious would have refrained from focusing more on either of them were Obi Wan present. he would have probably squealed like he did before Mace on that Office balcony.

Quote:
But had Obi-Wan helped him, I wonder if it would have turned out differently. It seems like Yoda didn't think his plan through completely. Likewise, why did he give up? He didn't seem that badly beaten, and surely the arrival of a few stormtroopers wouldn't have been that much more challenging (look how easily Yoda dispatches them at other times, and Dooku's super battle droid escorts proved no challenge for Obi-Wan earlier).
he lost his blade and understood a lost cause. besides, he must have thought that the Jedi Order could be rebuilt, or at least preserved for some more time. if the Grand Master was somehow killed or crippled, Obi Wan wouldn't have been able to do much. you notice how soon into Luke's training he sacrificed himself. no way would Luke have been a Jedi then. and the Clones had no problem with blasting the crap out of several other Council Members across the galaxy. the garrison at the Temple was pwnt only because they got jumped.

Quote:
But they could still fight! Nothing really changed in 20 years except they got old and older and then they had to rely on a barely trained kid to fight for them? It seems like their chances for victory were greater in Episode III than IV-VI!
you saw how Obi Wan handled the blade in EP4 . but yeah, Yoda could have made an appearance in EP4 instead of an episode later, but that was in GL's hands.

Quote:
Plus, what would have stopped Obi-Wan and Yoda from BOTH going to Dagobah or Tatooine or Alderaan and raising the two children there, from birth? Pooling their resources? They only ended up training Luke anyway, so it's not like they would be putting all their eggs in one basket.
you know, that's what I've been thinking all along. its quite obvious that Leia was never notified of her force sensitivity. Luke knew his dad's real name, Leia didn't know even that. although he disbelieved it at first, Luke did accept that Anakin Skywalker was a Jedi. why wasn't Leia notified of the same? she could have been trained by Yoda in secret when her age came, then Luke would'nt have to go rushing to Bespin as Leia could take care of herself by then.

Quote:
I don't need to imagine it, I see Yoda do it in AOTC. The games also show us "Light Jedi" throwing lightning, and we see some form of green lightning described in some of the EU (I believe it's in the New Jedi Order series, but I haven't read those).
that would be the "Emerald Sparks" power, according to Wookieepedia. I'm not all that sure if the name is canon, but the power is legit. Luke uses it in The Unifying Force.

Quote:
Well, you could still use force and other powers for "power." Jedi have no problem with mind trick, and that could be abused to have authority over others pretty easily. Qui Gon showed us that Jedi can cheat at dice, meaning they could clean out any casino and achieve vast wealth! (and if somebody catches you cheating, just mind trick them, heh).
tsk tsk, so much potential wasted.


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Old 01-03-2007, 05:09 PM   #30
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First in regards to force powers, quote from Jedi Academy:

"Powers from both the light and the dark side will be open to you. Remember it isn't the powers themselves that are inherently good or evil, it's how you use them."
-Kyle Katarn

That Kel Dorr Jedi master, I forgot his name, uses something called 'electric judgement' on those he feels deserve it. Its essentially force lightening.

In the EU, Jacen Solo used force lightning in the Vong War, and so did Luke later on, he blasted a Vong who was about to kill Jana (I think) with green lightening, just protecting his loved ones.

Luke also, when he had enough of Vader in ROTJ, seems to have temporarily fell to the dark side when he mowed Vader down, but this was when Vader threatened to turn Leia to the dark side - Luke could not let that happen. Palpatine misinterpreted this flurry of anger as having fallen to the dark side...he was wrong.

I noticed some people mentioning the novel Dark Rendezvous. Its a great novel revelaing much about Yoda. I remember him telling one of the kids that he was NOT a stranger to the dark side, and he was familiar with it.

Remember this is a Jedi that is 900 years old, he must have been through a lot during all those years, including temptation if not outright submission to the dark side (at least temporarily). We all go through it ourselves and we don't even have the power of a Jedi.

To me its simple. The force is not light or dark, but characters have both in them. Power corrupts. I don't know that absolute power corrupts absolutely, but when people get great power they are often tempted to do very shadey if not outright terrible things.

I beleive a true Jedi Master, all of them, would have been tempted by the dark side, would have gone through that trial of power and come out of it without letting their power control them. Even Yoda.


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Old 01-07-2007, 06:54 AM   #31
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It doesn't matter how old Yoda is. He still makes mistakes and he was wrong about a lot of things.

He didn't believe that the Sith had taken over until it was too late.

He didn't believe it was possible to turn back from the Dark Side.

He at one time (like his colleagues) used the Force for attack and participated in wars, then later changed his mind and taught that those things were not part of the Jedi lifestyle.

He wanted Obi-Wan to kill Anakin, when in fact had he done so, the prophecy would not have been fulfilled (only as it turned out). He also wanted Luke to kill the Emperor and Vader, and yet that's not how it turned out. He justified this by his belief that Anakin was "gone... consume by Darth Vader" when in fact Luke proved that there was "still good in him."

He thought that Luke would "destroy all for which [Han & Leia] have fought and suffered" if he went to face Vader on Bespin. That didn't happen.

He ran away from Sideous when it seems like he could have continued the fight and went into exile for 20 years.

He foolishly decided to split up and take the Sith one on one instead of joining together with Obi-Wan to defeat them 2 to 1 with better odds, why?

He missed his chance to stop Dooku by tossing that giant pillar onto Dooku or using it to disable his ship, instead of levitating it in the air for no reason (or just force pushing them out of the way of the pillar and going after Dooku), thus prolonging the war which lead to countless more deaths.

And so on and so forth.

I'm not saying that Yoda NEEDS to be perfect or infallible. But I think people are assuming that because he's one of the good guys, because he's a Jedi Master, and 900 years old that he WOULDN'T make a mistake.

Yet we see that he's made tons of mistakes and is just as fallible as any other character in the saga. Obi-Wan makes numerous mistakes as well, as does Mace Windu, and all the other Jedi. Palpatine makes mistakes too. Luke makes mistakes, he just happens to be luckier than some of the other characters.


I think it's a mistake to say that there is no Dark or Light Side of the Force, since this is always how it has been in the Star Wars mythology from day one (well, technically it isn't the "Light Side" that is just what the normal "good nature" of the Force is called in the EU, for convenience thanks to the video games.. in ROTJ, it is simply called "the good side").

Vergere in the NJO is revealed to have been full of crap, telling lies and having opinions that were based on a biased POV.

There most certainly IS a Dark Side. And it is evil.

However, that doesn't mean Jedi are perfectly good, just because they aren't Sith or don't use the Dark Side.

The idea that a certain power is always Dark Sided on the other hand, does seem to be a mistaken impression, and that's what I'm arguing.

Force Lightning need not always be a "Dark Side Power" that you have to tap into the Dark Side to use.

On the other hand, in the EU, it seems pretty easy to fall to the Dark Side and pretty easy to turn back from it, and it seems like "Good" characters regularly "skirt the Dark Side" and seem none the worse for wear. So judge that as you wish.

I think by the movie standards, users of Force Lightning may tend to be Dark Sided, but "Good siders" can also use it if they are sufficiently powerful, they just tend not to favor it.

By EU standards, using lightning may be "Skirting the Dark Side" but since it's so easy to come back from the Dark Side, perhaps these "Light Siders" don't find it that big of a risk. Sort of like if drunk driving could only result in a paper cut. More people would probably risk driving drunk, than if it often resulted in death or crippling injuries.


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Old 02-28-2014, 10:52 AM   #32
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I believe Yoda can use the darkside, and here's my reasoning: In Revenge of the Sith, When he meditating on Bail Organa's ship and Bail comes to tell him Obi Wan has made contact, Yoda opens his eyes, showing a yellow iris, which is seen in sith, as shown evidently by Sidious and Anikain, when he is evil. therefore, i believe yoda can use the darkside of the force, but is not fully corrupted by it.
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Old 04-12-2014, 07:15 AM   #33
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I know this is an old thread and I hate to sway off topic here, but after reading every post in this thread, I gotta say this...

You guys must love writing books. Look at the size of some your posts. haha



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