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Old 05-03-2012, 03:09 AM   #41
Rtas Vadum
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I found the above lines on Wookiepedia but they don't seem to make any sense? What did Nihilus show Visas?
He would show her the world(likely universe in this case) as he saw it. As she likely was at that point, a sole survivor on a decimated planet, it would have been bad enough to see the world through the force, and subsequently see every flame of life around you suddenly extinguished, is bad enough(along with having a certain resemblance to the Exile). But then to have Nihilus find her, and open her eyes to the dead world, likely far worse than she had been able to see it otherwise, is likely what damaged her sight.

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And I believe that the Exile's reconnection to the Force sent out echoes which was the reason that Nihilus and Visas sensed her in the first place? Am I right?
Yes, and no. Everything in the galaxy feels the force, but it takes something to be able to perceive it in a way that one can make use of it. The sort that occurs when the Exile first regains the force can almost be seen like the birth of a child - as much as they might be tied to the force, it is hard to tell how well. However, the point that Nihlius realizes that you might be a threat to him, is when the Exile obtains a sufficient alignment(I'm not sure exactly when this is, likely about 25% either way shows the cut-scenes that prelude Visas' arrival).

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Old 05-03-2012, 06:08 AM   #42
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The vision severely damaged Marr's Force Sight—which she, as a Miraluka, had to solely rely on, having no physical sight—and she became convinced that all life must die.
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In an attempt to make her believe in his cause, Nihilus showed her a vision, forcing her to see the galaxy in a way that her people never could; sentient beings on other planets, disconnected from the life surrounding them, unable to feel the Force.
He showed her people living without the Force and this damaged her vision? And she became convinced that all life must die?


But then why did she pledge herself to the Exile after being given mercy? What did she see in the Exile? She just sensed the Exile through the force but nothing more right?
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Old 05-03-2012, 01:19 PM   #43
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Yes, and no. Everything in the galaxy feels the force, but it takes something to be able to perceive it in a way that one can make use of it. The sort that occurs when the Exile first regains the force can almost be seen like the birth of a child - as much as they might be tied to the force, it is hard to tell how well. However, the point that Nihlius realizes that you might be a threat to him, is when the Exile obtains a sufficient alignment(I'm not sure exactly when this is, likely about 25% either way shows the cut-scenes that prelude Visas' arrival).
It triggers when you alignment reaches 25 or 75 (75% dark or light), or you've gained 50 total alignment points, or after you find your third master. At least that's what the script says it's supposed to do; it also says it doesn't fire until after you have left Telos and arrived on another planet, but I'm pretty sure that's not true.

They're able to sense the Exile at this because the Exile casts such strong echoes in the Force - basically, the more stuff you do, the stronger your presence becomes, more noticeable. It's not really that they couldn't sense it before... they just couldn't discern the Exile from the rest of the universe. Nihilus seems especially blind to it, because they're both wounds in the Force; he's blinded by all his power, which casts the same kind of echo. Visas, however, is able to sense a subtle difference between them, and so she could track down the Exile.
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He showed her people living without the Force and this damaged her vision? And she became convinced that all life must die?
No, it's... it's a bit more complicated than that. The Jedi - all Force users, really - believe that nothing can exist without the Force, at least not in this form. It's as part of the universe as gravity, electromagnetism, or the nuclear forces. It always has been and it always will be. But Nihilus exists only to feed on the Force, to destroy life. He's like a black hole - a point where the laws of the universe as we understand them cease to function. Nihilus showed Visas the universe as he sees it... the echo that he was creating, to devour the universe. And it scares the hell out of her. I think it drives her a big crazy, she gets Stockholm syndrome on a galactic scale. She clings to the belief that such a being must exist for a reason, that he's bigger than the universe, that the universe needs to die to feed his hunger.
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But then why did she pledge herself to the Exile after being given mercy? What did she see in the Exile? She just sensed the Exile through the force but nothing more right?
The Exile is proof that life can exist without the Force, and she sees in this a power that rivals Nihilus.


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Old 05-06-2012, 07:45 AM   #44
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Thanks a lot.

Another thing, GOTO wanted the Jedi alive in order to stabilize the Republic. He himself said that they were no use to him dead, but the HK-50's we encounter always want to kill the Exile, why?

And if we have G0-T0 in our party whilst encountering the HK-50's will he tell them to stop hunting me? I tried that but he doesn't say anything to the HK-50's.

And Zez Kai Ell himself said to the Exile that he/she was right in going to the war and that he had lost belief in Jedi Teachings. He laments the Council's decision to exile us and says that the Jedi Council was very arrogant, but when we return to Dantooine, he seems to be looking forward to cutting the Exile off from the Force and all the other masters behave just like Vrook. Doesn't that piss you off?

EDIT:

Ooh and another thing, why are the HK-50's interested in obtaining Vogga's Launch Codes from T3-M4 in Vogga's Warehouse?

Last edited by arsenalforever; 05-06-2012 at 08:04 AM.
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Old 05-06-2012, 09:56 AM   #45
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Another thing, GOTO wanted the Jedi alive in order to stabilize the Republic. He himself said that they were no use to him dead, but the HK-50's we encounter always want to kill the Exile, why?
Frankly, I think it's a plot hole. He wants you to help him preserve the Republic, so he sends a ****ton of droids and people (why not just messengers?) to kill you so that he can hire you. The bounty hunters are constantly telling you that "no one will care as long as I bring them your carcass", so clearly he didn't do a very good job at emphasizing the "alive" part.

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And if we have G0-T0 in our party whilst encountering the HK-50's will he tell them to stop hunting me? I tried that but he doesn't say anything to the HK-50's.
I don't remember ever being attacked by HK-50s (after Telos) in an unmodded game.

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And Zez Kai Ell himself said to the Exile that he/she was right in going to the war and that he had lost belief in Jedi Teachings. He laments the Council's decision to exile us and says that the Jedi Council was very arrogant, but when we return to Dantooine, he seems to be looking forward to cutting the Exile off from the Force and all the other masters behave just like Vrook. Doesn't that piss you off?
Technically Zez never (I think) says that she were right to join the war, just that the Council made a grave mistake in showing her the door instead of trying to understand why their Jedi kept falling to the dark side (or something).

As for his apparent change of mind, it is presumed that Vrook and Kavar spoke to him off-screen and convinced him to go along with their sentencing of the Exile (assuming he was every actually against it in the first place).

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Ooh and another thing, why are the HK-50's interested in obtaining Vogga's Launch Codes from T3-M4 in Vogga's Warehouse?
Because the HK-50s work for Goto (though this is never confirmed in an unmodded game) and Goto uses the codes to locate and hijack Vogga's ships.

On another note, I wonder why the HKs need to steal the launch codes from T3 if Goto's apparently been hijacking the freighters for some time. And why Vogga's one-story warehouse is literally next-door to his apartmen- I mean, his "palace".


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

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"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 05-06-2012, 10:00 PM   #46
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Another thing, GOTO wanted the Jedi alive in order to stabilize the Republic. He himself said that they were no use to him dead, but the HK-50's we encounter always want to kill the Exile, why?
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Frankly, I think it's a plot hole. He wants you to help him preserve the Republic, so he sends a ****ton of droids and people (why not just messengers?) to kill you so that he can hire you. The bounty hunters are constantly telling you that "no one will care as long as I bring them your carcass", so clearly he didn't do a very good job at emphasizing the "alive" part.
The HKs don't want to kill the Exile. They are quite clear about this. They don't have any problem seriously wounding the Exile in the process, but their intent is not to kill.

On the other hand, the HKs probably like killing as much as their predecessor, so they could just be lying; the bounty hunters in general seem to be looking for an excuse to kill the Exile, even if that's against Goto's orders. So it's not a plot hole; Goto explicitly says they are going against his orders, but that he doesn't mind much because any Jedi who could be killed by bounty hunters is worthless to him.
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Originally Posted by arsenalforever View Post
And Zez Kai Ell himself said to the Exile that he/she was right in going to the war and that he had lost belief in Jedi Teachings. He laments the Council's decision to exile us and says that the Jedi Council was very arrogant, but when we return to Dantooine, he seems to be looking forward to cutting the Exile off from the Force and all the other masters behave just like Vrook. Doesn't that piss you off?
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Originally Posted by TKA-001 View Post
Technically Zez never (I think) says that she were right to join the war, just that the Council made a grave mistake in showing her the door instead of trying to understand why their Jedi kept falling to the dark side (or something).
Nah, he flat out says "You were right to do what you did. Everything you did."
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As for his apparent change of mind, it is presumed that Vrook and Kavar spoke to him off-screen and convinced him to go along with their sentencing of the Exile (assuming he was every actually against it in the first place).
I don't really think changed his mind, he was just a hypocrite. I agree the others likely coaxed him - particularly Kavar, since he seems to do whatever Kavar says - but I don't think he ever had a change of heart. He and Vrook are rather consistent in their feelings... it's Kavar who stabs you in the back.
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Because the HK-50s work for Goto (though this is never confirmed in an unmodded game) and Goto uses the codes to locate and hijack Vogga's ships.
No mods needed, he'll admit to it if you have enough influence to ask him about his operations. They don't work exclusively for Goto, though.
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On another note, I wonder why the HKs need to steal the launch codes from T3 if Goto's apparently been hijacking the freighters for some time.
They never say they were stealing them, just that they wouldn't let T3 leave with them. However, I can't recall if they're among the bounty hunters who board Goto's yacht. Perhaps they did want the codes, to use as leverage against Goto.
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And why Vogga's one-story warehouse is literally next-door to his apartmen- I mean, his "palace".
That wasn't his usual abode. All the hijacking made him so paranoid he moved in right next door to his warehouse to keep an eye on it.


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Old 05-07-2012, 01:09 PM   #47
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If you see the Exile's conversation with Zez on Nar Shaddaa, you'll clearly see him taking the Exile's side and talking about his decision to leave the Council on the very day the Exile was cast out. He also said that it wasn't the Exile's fault that he went to war and that he had lost Padawans who joined the war too. I really thought he was different from Vrook but then again on Dantooine he finally turns out to be as cranky and stingy as Vrook and possesses the same "arrogance" which he detests so much. Hypocrite alert lol.

Atleast Vrook is honest about hating the Exile from the beginning, but Zez really pissed me off lol.
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Old 05-13-2012, 05:23 AM   #48
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If you see the Exile's conversation with Zez on Nar Shaddaa, you'll clearly see him taking the Exile's side and talking about his decision to leave the Council on the very day the Exile was cast out. He also said that it wasn't the Exile's fault that he went to war and that he had lost Padawans who joined the war too. I really thought he was different from Vrook but then again on Dantooine he finally turns out to be as cranky and stingy as Vrook and possesses the same "arrogance" which he detests so much. Hypocrite alert lol.

Atleast Vrook is honest about hating the Exile from the beginning, but Zez really pissed me off lol.
The answer is, somewhat simple. I think this was said before, but I can't be sure. But the reason they all take a stance against you? They think the Exile's power is exactly like Nihlius' power, even if they don't know of him specifically. The best way to explain it, is to see people like a container of water. While Nihlius will drain it completely, and stop it from being refilled, the Exile takes the excess, whatever spills over when it is already full. It is interesting that they fail to take into consideration anything the the Exile says, even when she went so far as to prove many times over just how much of a Jedi they are(barring Kreia's explanation of the whole thing, mind you, but they don't know that). But them being hypocritical somewhat makes sense. The have firm ideals on what a Jedi is, and when the Exile doesn't fit this, they might not exactly consider them a Sith, but in the least, a threat to what being a Jedi is/means.

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Old 05-15-2012, 03:16 AM   #49
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Also another thing, when we speak to Kavar on Onderon after the Civil War, he says that the Jedi in order to hide themselves, went to planets touched by war because it would be difficult for the Sith to detect them through the Force in such planets right? But later he says

"Worlds touched by war, or great tragedies, can be felt within the Force...strongly"

Isn't this a contradiction to what he says earlier?

Also, he says that the echoes they felt from the Exile were similar to those they felt from the Sith threat, so how does cutting the Exile off from the Force help them achieve anything?

Here's a list of all the things the Exile did for the Republic:

1. Aided in the restoration effort on Telos by helping the Ithorians
2. Offered help against the Sith threat to Atris and the Masters
3. Crippled the Exchange (On Telos and Nar Shaddaa)
4. Destroyed Goto's yatch.
5. Helped the settlers on Dantooine and protected Khoonda from the mercenary attack.
6. Helped Queen Talia on Onderon

Zez himself admitted that he saw the Exile run around Nar Shaddaa helping those in the Refugee Sector, etc. and felt ashamed that he didn't try to help people. He commended the Exile for his efforts, and what does he do on Dantooine?

Even after seeing the Exile do so much, why do the Masters still believe him/her to be the threat to them? Just because he turned away from the Force? Just because he didn't rely on the Force as heavily as they did? Atleast he/she helped the Republic, the Jedi Masters were just hiding and doing nothing.
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Old 05-15-2012, 05:26 AM   #50
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Also another thing, when we speak to Kavar on Onderon after the Civil War, he says that the Jedi in order to hide themselves, went to planets touched by war because it would be difficult for the Sith to detect them through the Force in such planets right? But later he says

"Worlds touched by war, or great tragedies, can be felt within the Force...strongly"

Isn't this a contradiction to what he says earlier?
It seems to be, but the problem is that, those who do feel echos of the tragedies that occurred, find only that it is difficult to feel anything else. So on these worlds, touched by war, those looking would find only these echos, while the Masters remain hidden behind it.

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Also, he says that the echoes they felt from the Exile were similar to those they felt from the Sith threat, so how does cutting the Exile off from the Force help them achieve anything?
It obviously doesn't, or rather it wouldn't have, if it was possible to go through with it. But they don't see that. They care little for how much of a help you have been to the galaxy. All that matters to them are the fact that the Exile forms bonds with others, in order to strengthen herself. Here, there seems to be no problem. However, they believe that the Exile leeches far more than excess, and therein is the problem. They take the Exile for what they seem to be, nothing more.

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Zez himself admitted that he saw the Exile run around Nar Shaddaa helping those in the Refugee Sector, etc. and felt ashamed that he didn't try to help people. He commended the Exile for his efforts, and what does he do on Dantooine?
He, and the rest of the Jedi Masters were trying to hide from the Sith. If they acted themselves, they would've drew their attention, and been unable to fight them off, especially alone. However, despite what he says, he is still a Jedi, and obviously a Master at that. Even if he did gain some truth in his exile, upon returning to being the thing he had been avoiding, along with it comes the same bloody problems, as it caused before.

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Even after seeing the Exile do so much, why do the Masters still believe him/her to be the threat to them? Just because he turned away from the Force? Just because he didn't rely on the Force as heavily as they did? Atleast he/she helped the Republic, the Jedi Masters were just hiding and doing nothing.
One problem that exists within the Jedi, and the Sith. Both groups are hell bent on the mantra of "There is No life without the Force". As Jedi, they are already arrogant enough to think, One, that they, as Jedi, can learn all the secrets the force holds(without ever having to feel the dark side), and two, that the dark side is a perversion of the force, and not at all what it should be. What they not only fail to realize, but refuse to, is that the force is not simply a power in which a user can chose a single side, and expect to understand it.

However, it comes down to a single thing, said a few times over: her unique connection, her ability to form bonds(or his, of course). It isn't something they can understand, and thus, when one finds something they cannot understand, what is the first emotion to arise? Fear. Even beyond that, how could they possibly learn to feel the force as the Exile does? In the moment Kreia shows them this, they die. So they, in another display of their arrogance, decide to break her connection, and nothing else. They expect that the Sith will show themselves, that there will be ground to fight on, planned and understood by all. But they should've understood then, that after Katar, that isn't how it works, or how it is going to work. Even Kavar, who almost seems to have known that Vaklu was getting help from the Sith, and what does he do? Act as a bodyguard for Queen Talia. Nothing else.

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Old 05-15-2012, 06:03 AM   #51
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So just because the Exile doesn't rely heavily on the force, she doesn't NEED the Force anymore.

Was this the theory of the Jedi Masters or did they fear that if in the future, if the Exile turned to the dark side, she would get people to follow her with ease and aid in her cause to destroy the Jedi/Republic?

And another thing, when Kreia steps in, she says that Revan knew dark places in the galaxy where Jedi were corrupted and where he made them believe in his cause, was she referring to Korriban?

EDIT:
And another thing, Revan left Onderon intact didn't he? Onderon was not touched by war?
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Old 05-20-2012, 10:53 PM   #52
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So just because the Exile doesn't rely heavily on the force, she doesn't NEED the Force anymore.
Yes, that's correct. Well, sort of.
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Was this the theory of the Jedi Masters or did they fear that if in the future, if the Exile turned to the dark side, she would get people to follow her with ease and aid in her cause to destroy the Jedi/Republic?
The Exile cast echoes that made them doubt their belief in the Force. It wasn't something of the dark side, it was just a wound, an absence of the Force. Back during the Exile's trial, they didn't understand it; they thought it was some kind of fluke that couldn't be replicated. But then they felt it again from the Sith who were hunting them. So yes, they were afraid that this ability could be taught, that the echo was spreading, and when touched by the dark side it was capable of terrible things. But frankly I think these are all just excuses; they feared the echo itself, not just its effects. There was nothing the Exile could do to change their minds, they didn't see the Exile as a person, just a hole that had to be plugged.
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And another thing, when Kreia steps in, she says that Revan knew dark places in the galaxy where Jedi were corrupted and where he made them believe in his cause, was she referring to Korriban?
She was referring to Malachor, but Korriban is one of those place also.
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And another thing, Revan left Onderon intact didn't he? Onderon was not touched by war?
Onderon was invaded during the Mandalorian Wars, but wasn't a major part of the Jedi Civil War because Revan thought it was important to the Republic's infrastructure. Onderon was a nasty place even before the Mandalorian Wars, though, what with Freedon Nadd and all the Beast Wars.


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Old 05-21-2012, 08:37 AM   #53
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You know HK-47 says that Revan used going to war against the Mandalorians as an excuse to convert the Jedi and soldiers who had joined him and turn them against the Republic and Dark Jedi. Do you think this was the case or did Revan have true intentions of stopping the Mandalorians?

If he DID plan to attack the Republic, what made him do so, the Sith teachings from the ruins on Dantooine from KOTOR 1?


Why did he leave Onderon intact in the Jedi Civil War? Was his grudge only against the Jedi and not the Republic?

Kavar says that the Jedi chose to hide on worlds touched by war in order to prevent themselves from being detected, but he hid on Onderon, which was not touched by the Jedi Civil War?

Quote:
So yes, they were afraid that this ability could be taught, that the echo was spreading, and when touched by the dark side it was capable of terrible things. But frankly I think these are all just excuses; they feared the echo itself, not just its effects.
Isn't the echo ITSELF the effect of terrible things? Terrible things cause echoes, not the other way around right? So they feared the terrible things which caused the echoes right?

The Exile had a natural ability to influence others and be leader, but instead of appreciating this, the Masters criticized him. Is this because they think that if the Exile falls to the Dark Side, he will influence others and make them do his bidding? Is that what they fear? They think that after all he has done to help them he'll fall to the Dark Side? If the Exile would have been affiliated with the Dark Side, would he have not killed them on their respective planets?

In the end, the Exile destroys Malachor because of the Sith Academy there but does its destruction in any way seal the wound? After its destruction would the Exile still not carry the cries of the people he slayed there?

And by saying that he carries the cries of the people he slayed, the Masters mean that he cannot be sensed through the Force and appears void of the Force right? Then how does Chodo Habat sense him on Telos?
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Old 05-22-2012, 12:46 PM   #54
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You know HK-47 says that Revan used going to war against the Mandalorians as an excuse to convert the Jedi and soldiers who had joined him and turn them against the Republic and Dark Jedi. Do you think this was the case or did Revan have true intentions of stopping the Mandalorians?
I don't believe he ever says this. This is what the Jedi Civil War was about. Atton also mentions it, but according to him it didn't start until after Malachor.
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If he DID plan to attack the Republic, what made him do so, the Sith teachings from the ruins on Dantooine from KOTOR 1?
He learned that the Sith - the True Sith - still exist, from Sith records he discovered on Malachor. Supposedly his whole plan was to conquer the Republic in order to strengthen it for the inevitable Sith invasion. Personally I think Kreia is wrong, that Revan truly fell to the dark side; his motives may have been pure, but the war still corrupted him.
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Why did he leave Onderon intact in the Jedi Civil War? Was his grudge only against the Jedi and not the Republic?
Yes, he doesn't want to destroy the Republic, he wants to protect it. He left Onderon alone for the same reason Goto asks you to stabilize it - it's an important part of the Republic's infrastructure.
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Kavar says that the Jedi chose to hide on worlds touched by war in order to prevent themselves from being detected, but he hid on Onderon, which was not touched by the Jedi Civil War?
War in general, not specifically the Jedi Civil War. The Jedi Civil War itself was a direct result of the Mandalorian Wars, part of the same echo.
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Isn't the echo ITSELF the effect of terrible things? Terrible things cause echoes, not the other way around right? So they feared the terrible things which caused the echoes right?
Well, no, they're specifically afraid of the echo and what it does. It could mean the end of the Force, and as Jedi they don't know anything other than the Force. Whether it's a bad thing is a matter of opinion; that's certainly what the Jedi believe. However, as Kreia points out, their perspective is very limited; they have only sensed the echo, not experienced it. They don't understand it as well as those who have, because they have only felt its effects. It's obviously capable of great evil, but despite everything it does to the Exile, he/she becomes a stronger person for it.

Remember that Jedi aren't supposed to fear anything, and they've been fighting wars for a long, long time. In the past their enemy was the dark side, but the echo is... something new. In the past, wars have left wounds in the Force, but for the most part these wounds don't do anything; they're just places that Jedi have learned to avoid. They aren't necessarily evil, just unnerving. The wound at Malachor, however, somehow resonates with all the other wounds in the galaxy, and even with the people who fought there. This is likely connected to the Exile's bonding ability, as well as the choice to turn away from the Force.
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The Exile had a natural ability to influence others and be leader, but instead of appreciating this, the Masters criticized him. Is this because they think that if the Exile falls to the Dark Side, he will influence others and make them do his bidding? Is that what they fear? They think that after all he has done to help them he'll fall to the Dark Side? If the Exile would have been affiliated with the Dark Side, would he have not killed them on their respective planets?
It's the power itself they fear, not how it could be used. They fear its inherent nature, that it comes from something other than the Force. Well, they fear how it could be used too, but that's only ancillary. I don't believe they're afraid the Exile will fall to the dark side; they're simply afraid of what the Exile is, a wound in the Force. They think the wound is evil, no matter what it does.
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In the end, the Exile destroys Malachor because of the Sith Academy there but does its destruction in any way seal the wound? After its destruction would the Exile still not carry the cries of the people he slayed there?
Well, it's more like the Exile coming to terms with what happened there. That's both the reason for destroying Malachor and the reason the echo is healed.
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And by saying that he carries the cries of the people he slayed, the Masters mean that he cannot be sensed through the Force and appears void of the Force right? Then how does Chodo Habat sense him on Telos?
No, they can sense the Exile, quite strongly. They might be sensing different than they would normally expect to sense from a person, but they still can sense him. It's Nihilus who has trouble sensing the Exile because - I believe - he and the Exile are both wounds in the Force; he can't discern the Exile's presence from his own.



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Old 05-22-2012, 02:20 PM   #55
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HK-47 does tell the Exile this when he/she asks him if Revan was training Jedi and converting them at Malachor.

I don't understand the difference between a Wound and an Echo. What do you mean when you say it "resonates with other wounds"? And you said the echoes do something to the Exile but he/she only becomes stronger. What does that mean? Kreia thinks the echoes can do good things too? What do these echoes have to do with the Exile's bonding ability? He was good at bonding even before Malachor right? Did he drain the Force from the others then too?

If Nihilius has difficulty in sensing the Exile and the converse is also true, then in the game why does Kreia ask us, "Have you felt it?" And we reply, "Yes, it's Visas' master", and then choose our prestige class?
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Old 05-22-2012, 06:39 PM   #56
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You know HK-47 says that Revan used going to war against the Mandalorians as an excuse to convert the Jedi and soldiers who had joined him and turn them against the Republic and Dark Jedi. Do you think this was the case or did Revan have true intentions of stopping the Mandalorians? If he DID plan to attack the Republic, what made him do so, the Sith teachings from the ruins on Dantooine from KOTOR 1?
I figure that the way it went was, Revan entered the war with pretty pure intentions; the only thing wrong with his methods was that he was causing a split in the Jedi Order by taking charge herself. I then figure that over the course of the war he and his Jedi gradually became more and more ruthless, partly by making un-Jedi-like decisions (re; the sort of things the computer guarding the Kashyyyk Star Map alludes to) and being enthralled by the sort of power that commanding fleets and armies brings.

I then figure that the turn to the dark side, for Revan, was completed when he came across Trayus Academy, where he learned about the "True" Sith in the Unknown Regions, and embraced the Sith teachings and the dark side. Past that point, he intended to eradicate and replace the Republic and Jedi Order with his own Sith. He did truly believe that the galaxy would be better off with him and his Empire in charge, and that any steps taken toward that end were justified, but this was really nothing more than a self-serving rationalization (which is nothing new to the Sith; to name a few, Darths Plagueis, Sidious, Caedus, and Krayt all believed the same thing about themselves). His master, Kreia, unable to stomach the thought that her greatest student had in fact become merely another in a long line of Dark Lords who wanted to dominate the galaxy, also adopted this rationalization.

That's my interpretation, anyways. I'm pretty sure it agrees with most of what the KotOR games say.


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Old 05-23-2012, 02:56 AM   #57
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But Jimmy Carter says that Revan didn't want to harm te Republic. Why else would he have left Onderon intact?
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Old 05-23-2012, 03:22 AM   #58
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But Jimmy Carter says that Revan didn't want to harm te Republic. Why else would he have left Onderon intact?
Hmm it's more like he didn't want to harm the people(sort of) but wanted to destory the political system. Also he did not want to depend on the Forge so it wouldn't do to him what it did to Malak, so he needed infrastructure to wage a further war with True Sith.
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Old 05-23-2012, 05:50 AM   #59
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HK-47 does tell the Exile this when he/she asks him if Revan was training Jedi and converting them at Malachor.
That was during the Jedi Civil War, after the Mandalorian Wars. Malachor was one of the centers of Revan's Sith Empire, as it continued to be even after his supposed death, Malak's death, and Revan's disappearance. My theory is that Malak and most of the other Sith didn't actually know about it, at least not to the fullest extent, and that's how it survived the Jedi Civil War. It is said in the loading screen hints - and in "Chronicles of the Old Republic", though while technically canon it's full of continuity errors - that the Sith rediscovered Malachor by following the echo to its source, or something along those lines. This is pretty much the same thing the Exile does at the end of the game, incidentally.
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I don't understand the difference between a Wound and an Echo.
A wound in the Force is just an absence, a hole. It's described as a place where it's difficult to sense the Force. Wounds are formed from pain and suffering, such as when death takes place on a great scale - either all at once like Malachor, or slowly over time like Korriban. And they can form inside a person as well, under the right conditions.

An echo, as best I can describe it, is a ripple in the Force. Everything is connected by the Force, so everything affects everything else in some small way, through these echoes. When Vader says he senses "a tremor in the Force" from Obi-Wan, that's what he's talking about; Obi-Wan is strong in the Force, and the Force connects everything, so Obi-Wan affects everything in the universe in some small way, which Vader can sense.

The echoes caused by wounds in the Force are ones that never seem to stop; they're ripples that keep on rippling, without purpose and with no final destination. Kind of like an incomplete story.
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What do you mean when you say it "resonates with other wounds"?
I mean it's connected to the other wounds, and they draw strength from each other. Their echoes overlap, resonate, and grow.
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And you said the echoes do something to the Exile but he/she only becomes stronger. What does that mean? Kreia thinks the echoes can do good things too?
Kreia thinks the Force is bad, because you can't have free will if there is a Force that has a will of its own and the means to control you. So she believes the Exile becomes a stronger person for turning away from the Force. But more generally, she believes in learning through conflict, that good can come from bad.

Whether you agree with her about the Force is irrelevant; just look at how the Exile progresses in the game. The Exile was said to be a mediocre student, and yet even Vrook is impressed at how quickly he/she is able to learn - to the point where this terrifies them in the dark side version - and draw so many followers, drawing strength from them all as well. They explain that it's because the Exile's bonding ability has grown stronger; the war essentially unlocked the Exile's potential. Good or bad, Malachor was a learning experience.
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What do these echoes have to do with the Exile's bonding ability?
Well, this is more my theory than anything directly stated in the game - well, most everything is with this game, really. The Exile formed bonds with all the soldiers under him/her, that's established. And it's the pain of their deaths that forces the Exile to turn away from the Force. We also know that the wound at Malachor is different from previous wounds in the Force. I believe it's a direct result of the Exile's bonding ability; the Exile is still connected to all those dead soldiers and Jedi on Malachor, Dxun, Serroco and wherever else they fought together. And all of them were, in a much smaller way, connected to others who died on other planets, and so on. Traditionally a bond is seen as a connection between two people, but in this case the Exile is connected to whole planets - Malachor, Dxun, Serroco, etc. This means the wounds are all connected, bonded; they strengthen each other, their echoes resonate and grow in strength. It's the Exile that's the link.
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He was good at bonding even before Malachor right?
Yes, that's correct.
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Did he drain the Force from the others then too?
No, not exactly. A Force bond is seen as positive energy that flows both ways. The Exile and Nihilus - and the Sith assassins to a lesser extent - have learned to channel it in one direction. As I said, it's a preexisting ability that grows stronger, and in some ways different.
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If Nihilius has difficulty in sensing the Exile and the converse is also true, then in the game why does Kreia ask us, "Have you felt it?" And we reply, "Yes, it's Visas' master", and then choose our prestige class?
Er... what? I said the Nihilus has difficulty sensing the Exile, not Kreia or the Exile have difficulty sensing Nihilus. However, I should point out that Nihilus does start to sense the Exile - otherwise he would never send Visas, obviously - as the Exile grows stronger in the Force. In a sense the Exile stops being part of the echo - or blending in with the echo, whichever you prefer - and becomes something new, which Nihilus certainly can sense. Part of this is because the Exile is regaining and reasserting his/her identity, and in so doing his/her presence in the Force becomes unique once again.

Also, the Exile probably wasn't sensing anything before, what with not being able to feel the Force anymore. But I still think it's much more one way, due to Nihilus' nature; he's blind power. He can only see himself, and what he hungers for.
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But Jimmy Carter says that Revan didn't want to harm te Republic. Why else would he have left Onderon intact?
Er... my name isn't Jimmy Carter. But I agree with the others, Revan intended to replace the Republic, not destroy it; he thought the other Jedi weren't prepared to defend it, due to their refusal to go to war against the Mandalorians. He attacks the Republic, but only parts that he believes are weak; he leaves parts that are key to the Republic's survival, such as Onderon, alone. And I think he shares Kreia's philosophy, that he believes even if he loses the Republic will be stronger for it. Though I also believe he's very wrong in this case, considering the state of the Republic after the Jedi Civil War. Somewhere along the line the dark side twisted his morality, and his judgement.


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Old 05-23-2012, 09:17 AM   #60
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But I agree with the others, Revan intended to replace the Republic, not destroy it
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Hmm it's more like he didn't want to harm the people(sort of) but wanted to destory the political system.
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But Jimmy Carter says that Revan didn't want to harm te Republic. Why else would he have left Onderon intact?
This is the part that puzzles me - particularly the part that Goto in TSL literally says that the idea of Revan wanting to destroy the Republic is "a common misconception, not supported by facts". The Republic is a government. Revan declared war on that government with the aim of dismantling and replacing it - what part of that doesn't mean "destroy the Republic"? What he chooses to do with the industrial infrastructure is a strategic concern, not a political one; and whether he wants to preserve its people is a, ethical concern, because their existence is not directly tied to the existence of one government or another.

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Also he did not want to depend on the Forge so it wouldn't do to him what it did to Malak, so he needed infrastructure to wage a further war with True Sith.
I'm also not sure why people rip on Malak so much for supposedly using the Star Forge more than Revan - we've never seen any evidence that it had any negative side-effects on Malak (seeing as he's already on the dark side and can't be corrupted much more by it), and the thing was winning the war even before he took the helm. From all indications, the Star Forge was worth an entire Empire's worth of military production, so Revan's decision to make sure he still had large infrastructure was really just a precaution.


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Old 05-23-2012, 12:57 PM   #61
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Sorry JCarter, for calling you Jimmy Carter.

I remember one of the masters saying that even if one of the members sharing a bond die, the bond would still exist but it would be empty, like a wound. So THIS is the reason why the Exile is called a wound in the Force. He carries the empty bonds of the people who he knew and wro died at Malachor. But why did the incident at Malachor specifically "strengthen" the Exile's bonding ability? And how does the Exile "blend with the echoes"?



Vader extinguished lives at Alderan while the Exile did so at Malachor but the reason Vader is NOT CONSIDERED a Wound is that he didn't have strong bonds with the people he killed at Alderan, while the Exile did. Can you explain why Sidious is a Wound in the Force?
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:07 PM   #62
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Can you explain why Sidious is a Wound in the Force?
Where does this idea come from? I know some of the EU (like Darth Plagueis and the RotS novelization) calls him a "singularity" or "black hole in the Force", but I don't think it means the same thing as what it means in TSL.


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Old 05-24-2012, 11:25 AM   #63
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I remember one of the masters saying that even if one of the members sharing a bond die, the bond would still exist but it would be empty, like a wound. So THIS is the reason why the Exile is called a wound in the Force. He carries the empty bonds of the people who he knew and wro died at Malachor.
That's about it, yes. They kept piling on and on until the Exile became a living wound in the Force. If a part of you dies when you lose someone with whom you're bonded, imagine what happens when almost everyone you know dies, and you were bonded to them all.
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But why did the incident at Malachor specifically "strengthen" the Exile's bonding ability?
Well, why is a question that is never specifically answered. I'd say the most likely reason is that the Exile no longer feels the Force naturally, using bonds with other Force users in order to do so; the bonding ability grew stronger in order to adapt for the greater demand.

Or if you want to look at it in a less technical - and perhaps more idealistic - manner, the Exile's ability to lead was the only thing left; everything else died at Malachor. The Exile is a strong individual, and clung to his/her remaining strength. Rather than drawing on the Force, the Exile drew strength from within, from untapped potential.
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And how does the Exile "blend with the echoes"?
Well, for a lot of reasons the Exile is intrinsically tied to the wound at Malachor. So the Exile feels the same to Force users, at least until the Exile starts reconnecting with the Force. Nihilus is especially blind because he's also tied to the wound; his own power overshadows the Exile.
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Vader extinguished lives at Alderan while the Exile did so at Malachor but the reason Vader is NOT CONSIDERED a Wound is that he didn't have strong bonds with the people he killed at Alderan, while the Exile did. Can you explain why Sidious is a Wound in the Force?
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Where does this idea come from? I know some of the EU (like Darth Plagueis and the RotS novelization) calls him a "singularity" or "black hole in the Force", but I don't think it means the same thing as what it means in TSL.
Yeah, that's the first I've heard of this as well. While wounds in the Force still exist after K2 - the whole concept being based on the destruction of Alderaan, of course - I don't believe anything like Malachor will ever happen again, a wound connected to every other wound. And certainly not a wound in a person.



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Old 05-25-2012, 12:47 AM   #64
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Thanks a lot. And can you tell me about the bond shared by Visas and Nihilus?
Show spoiler


I don't understand what Revan's main objective was during the Jedi Civil War. Why did he leave planets intact? Why did he tell Malak not to use the Star Forge excessively?
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Old 05-25-2012, 04:02 AM   #65
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Thanks a lot. And can you tell me about the bond shared by Visas and Nihilus?
Show spoiler
Well this is perhaps an even trickier question... I believe it's because Nihilus let Visas live that they become bonded in the traditional manner - albeit more extreme, like Exile and Kreia's bond - rather than his usual method of leeching the life off people, unilaterally. He made Visas his apprentice and emissary, so harming her will harm him. Nihilus is sort of the opposite of the Exile; the Exile generally forms good bonds (i.e. beneficial to both parties, but potentially harmful to both) but is capable of forming bad ones (i.e. beneficial to one and harmful to another) and Nihilus generally forms bad ones but in one case forms a good one.
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I don't understand what Revan's main objective was during the Jedi Civil War. Why did he leave planets intact?
He wanted to replace the Jedi Order with his Sith Empire. Simple as that. Everything else was second to that objective, and most importantly he didn't want to weaken the Republic in any way. He left certain worlds like Onderon alone, but he also attacked others so that they would have to rely on the Republic's aide; he assassinated Yusanis so the Echani wouldn't become independent enough to break away from the Republic, and instigated a civil war on Praven Prime so it would be forced to secede and later reenter, on more favorable terms for the Republic. In short, he ruthlessly helped the Republic, which is rather strange considering he was technically at war with them; this is why Goto and others theorize Revan had some larger plan that never came to fruition due to Malak's betrayal. According to Kreia, Revan was trying to protect the Republic from an unseen Sith threat.
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Why did he tell Malak not to use the Star Forge excessively?
It's implied that the Star Forge directly caused the collapse of the Infinite Empire; it corrupted the user to the point of insanity, or something along those lines... much in the same way that Nihilus is consumed by his own hunger. Malak either didn't know the danger, or didn't care. Obviously they had differing opinions on a lot of things, but it could be explained by Revan keeping him in the dark. Revan likely never expected Malak to overthrow him, so it would make sense if he never told him everything. I don't believe Revan ever told Malak about the Truth Sith, his real reason for attacking the Republic, or, as I mentioned earlier, Malachor.


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Old 05-25-2012, 11:22 AM   #66
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It's implied that the Star Forge directly caused the collapse of the Infinite Empire; it corrupted the user to the point of insanity, or something along those lines... much in the same way that Nihilus is consumed by his own hunger. Malak either didn't know the danger, or didn't care. Obviously they had differing opinions on a lot of things, but it could be explained by Revan keeping him in the dark. Revan likely never expected Malak to overthrow him, so it would make sense if he never told him everything. I don't believe Revan ever told Malak about the Truth Sith, his real reason for attacking the Republic, or, as I mentioned earlier, Malachor.
It was stated in the Chronicles (that were until TOR still considered canon by Lucasfilm to my knowledge even though they introduced some mistakes on their own) that Malak did not know about Trayus Academy.

The problem with new canon is that the whole deal with Trayus Academy might have been retconned out of existence which is sad, bc without Trayus, KotOR 2 makes no sense...

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I'm also not sure why people rip on Malak so much for supposedly using the Star Forge more than Revan - we've never seen any evidence that it had any negative side-effects on Malak (seeing as he's already on the dark side and can't be corrupted much more by it), and the thing was winning the war even before he took the helm. From all indications, the Star Forge was worth an entire Empire's worth of military production, so Revan's decision to make sure he still had large infrastructure was really just a precaution.
You can always be corrupted more, look at Nihilus The simple thing is Star Forge speeds up the process. Revan wanted to avoid it, Malak embraced it, and the game wants us to believe that part of what Malak become is due to Star Forge's influence.

We have not seen direct evidence in KotOR bc there is so much you can show in one game.

Not to mention it sits well with what Kreia says about Revan and what makes his image in TOR miss the point imo.
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Old 05-25-2012, 03:44 PM   #67
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It was stated in the Chronicles (that were until TOR still considered canon by Lucasfilm to my knowledge even though they introduced some mistakes on their own) that Malak did not know about Trayus Academy.
Ah, it's been a while since I read them, thanks. They're still canon, as far as I'm aware though. Apparently it's ok that Star Wars canon doesn't make sense.
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The problem with new canon is that the whole deal with Trayus Academy might have been retconned out of existence which is sad, bc without Trayus, KotOR 2 makes no sense...
Frankly I'd rather ignore anything other than the two games, if only for the sake of discussion. The expanded media introduce so many problems, though I have to fault MMOTOR most of all considering the circumstances. So best ignore it.


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Old 06-07-2012, 01:10 AM   #68
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Also, after the Exile defeats Visas on the Ebon Hawk, she says "Kill me, I beg you. It was not my wish to challenge you" And Nihilius force chokes her aboard the Ravager when she asks him if the echo (the Exile) is a threat. Why?
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Old 06-07-2012, 05:17 PM   #69
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Also, after the Exile defeats Visas on the Ebon Hawk, she says "Kill me, I beg you. It was not my wish to challenge you"
She wanted to die. I thought we established that. You probably would too, if you were Nihilus' mistress.
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And Nihilius force chokes her aboard the Ravager when she asks him if the echo (the Exile) is a threat. Why?
Because he's supposed to be the darkness that feeds on all life or whatever she mumbles about all the time... echoes? Nothing is supposed to be a threat to him, I guess is the point.


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Old 06-15-2012, 09:08 AM   #70
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Another thing:

When Visquis calls the Exile to meet him in the Jekk Jekk Tarr, why does the Bounty Hunter truce break? Why does everyone start attacking the Exile? Didn't Visquis want the Exile's help? Why would he want everyone to start attacking him?
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Old 06-15-2012, 05:12 PM   #71
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When Visquis calls the Exile to meet him in the Jekk Jekk Tarr, why does the Bounty Hunter truce break?
They were supposed to wait. To see if the Exile would draw out another Jedi. When Visquis decides to contact the exile to meet with them, they think something is going on, and decide to do something. Though they still followed goto's orders, and did not attack the Exile.
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Why does everyone start attacking the Exile?
That's just it. They don't. The truce was off after the Twin Suns attacked Atton, and that is just the point. They didn't go for the Exile, they went for the party members,

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Didn't Visquis want the Exile's help?
Nope. Perhaps he did plan on having a serious meeting with her, but likely the Exile would have fallen into the same trap that Mira found herself in. Even when the Exile does arrive, what does he do first? Try to knock her out with gas. (admittedly what is in the bar anyway, but still...)

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Why would he want everyone to start attacking him?
He didn't. He wanted to capture the Exile himself, and deliver her to Goto, all so he could try...something to get rid of him. Also, the main reason he wanted to do that, was due to his deal with Vogga. Since Vogga couldn't get his suppiles of fuel out of the system without Goto snapping them up, Visquis allied with the hutt to get rid of Goto.

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Old 06-15-2012, 10:56 PM   #72
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Another thing:

When Visquis calls the Exile to meet him in the Jekk Jekk Tarr, why does the Bounty Hunter truce break? Why does everyone start attacking the Exile? Didn't Visquis want the Exile's help? Why would he want everyone to start attacking him?
The bounty hunters don't work for Visquis; everyone works for Goto or the Hutts, directly or indirectly. Visquis betrayed Goto by setting up his trap for the Exile; he wanted to use the Exile to draw Goto out of hiding and kill him - of course, it was completely unknown to him that Goto was just a hologram. The bounty hunters also betrayed Goto by going after Atton and the other party members when they were told to leave the Exile alone - on a technicality that Goto never really said anything about the party members specifically. They actually thought Goto had betrayed them first; Visquis works for Goto, so they assume he is acting under Goto's orders when he arranges a meeting with the Exile. This is compounded by their preexisting suspicions, as Goto had quite clearly told them to not capture the Exile, after they did all the work in drawing him/her to Nar Shaddaa. This bit of cut content should help:
Quote:
Zhug #1
The scout has reported back with very strange news. The Exchange has arranged a meeting with the Jeedai.

Zhug #2
I do not understand why they would do that. I had thought they wanted to watch the Jeedai. See if the Jeedai could attract other Jeedai.

Zhug #3
Perhaps the Jeedai caused so much trouble, Goto get tired of it.

Zhug #1
Maybe they find other Jeedai.

Zhug #2
No, it is obvious what Goto intends to do. Goto intended to hire us to drive the Jeedai to Nar Shaddaa. Now that the Jeedai is here, Goto doesn't need to pay us anymore. He will try to capture the Jeedai himself.

Zhug #3
But we cannot attack the Jeedai. Goto would put bounties on all our heads.

Zhug #3
Then we will take the Jeedai's companions and the Jeedai's ship hostage.
Presumably Atton deduced all of this... frankly I think it's unclear. They are still hunting the same targets - the Exile and his/her companions - so the truce should still be on. But I guess the bounty hunters never really cared about the code anyway; now that it's not longer technically a bounty, as they have all betrayed their client, they're free to do whatever they want.


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Old 06-16-2012, 12:20 AM   #73
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This thread delivers.


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Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
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Old 06-17-2012, 10:11 AM   #74
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YouTube Video

This vid pretty much answers my questions.


But after this scene, the Exile goes into the Ebon Hawk, where Atton says that the Handmaiden has taken Kreia to Atris. The Exile then answers, "Then we will have to go to there - the Sith will attack Telos"

1. How did the Handmaiden take Kreia to Atris without a flaming ship?
2. Who told the Exile that the Sith were about to attack Telos?
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Old 06-17-2012, 10:47 AM   #75
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1. How did the Handmaiden take Kreia to Atris without a flaming ship?
Though it's been a long, long while since I've played that part of the game, unmodified, I seem to recall a cutscene showing the other handmaidens arriving.

In any case, does it matter? Space travel is commonplace in Star Wars (that's one of the things that really annoys me about The Phantom Menace) and Kreia wanted to be taken to Atris and... she's Kreia, she has her ways.
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2. Who told the Exile that the Sith were about to attack Telos?
Perhaps because Atris is the only other Jedi, the Exile assumes they'll go after her. I don't know... the whole battle of Telos is really off.


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Old 06-17-2012, 08:03 PM   #76
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Perhaps because Atris is the only other Jedi, the Exile assumes they'll go after her. I don't know... the whole battle of Telos is really off.
I don't know if she will say it for sure every time(especially if you spare Atris), but Kreia(or at least, the impression of her in the holocrons), mentions...

"One of the Sith Lords has come to Telos. You know why he has come here. And if he is not stopped, here, now, then he shall lay waste to the planet."

That could mean Sion, but it's lilely Sion would only be after Jedi, and would not concern himself with the station. Which leaves only Nihilus, who is obviously more likely to lay waste to the planet, given what the Exile would know of Katar.

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Old 06-18-2012, 02:54 AM   #77
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The Exile tells Atton that they must go to Telos because the Sith are planning to attack it even before they leave Dantooine for the Academy. But I don't understand how they even come to know that Telos is going to be under attack?

And how did the Ebon Hawk even reach the Academy? I thought the codes were only with the Handmaiden?

If we side with the Queen on Onderon, there is a cut scene of Kreia telling Colonel Tobin to tell Nihilus to attack Telos and that there is a Jedi Academy there, but if we side with General Vaklu, who tells Nihilus to attack Telos? And why would Kreia want Nihilus to attack Telos?

Nihilus could not sense the Jedi Council meeting on Dantooine (when they tried to strip the Exile of the Force) because it was difficult to sense Force Sensitives on such worlds, then does that make Telos any different?

And when Atris asks Kreia who she is, Kreia says "I am the one who ordered him to be exiled". Is this true?

Atris also says: "These Sith are spawned of you, spawned of the Mandalorian Wars... all those deaths, all those Jedi"

So the Sith DID learn those techniques from the Exile?

Atris said that Kreia was waiting at Malachor for the Exile, where she intended to create another echo that would deafen and kill all Force Sensitives. I wanted to ask, that how she intended to trigger another echo? By making the Exile kill her at the heart of Malachor? Then she succeeded didn't she?

And Atris said that if the Exile did not follow her to Malachor, she will kill herself, resulting in the death of the Exile as well. Did she mean this or was it another one of her lies? I think she was speaking the truth, because if she killed herself on Malachor, the Exile would be caught unprepared and would die of the pain too (like on Dantooine (dark side version))

Last edited by arsenalforever; 06-18-2012 at 03:12 AM.
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Old 06-18-2012, 06:26 AM   #78
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The Exile tells Atton that they must go to Telos because the Sith are planning to attack it even before they leave Dantooine for the Academy. But I don't understand how they even come to know that Telos is going to be under attack?
Where else would it be? It might be suspect at that point, but in some ways, where else would Nihilus choose to attack? As far as the game itself goes, you only hear about Katar, and that's it. He hasn't went after anywhere else, to to anything similar. So he obviously had the need to quell his hunger, along with needing a place to do so. How exactly he would've heard about Telos(beyond Tobin specifically telling him), I can't say, but it's either that Kreia actually tells Tobin the information regardless of who the Exile sides with, or...well else I don't know.

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And how did the Ebon Hawk even reach the Academy? I thought the codes were only with the Handmaiden?
"She said you would come here, to this place"

Atris was expecting you. Regardless of your alignment, she wants to be rid of you. You could say that it's like this - if you want to fix a problem, and it happens to be coming close enough to do so on it's own, why stop it?

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If we side with the Queen on Onderon, there is a cut scene of Kreia telling Colonel Tobin to tell Nihilus to attack Telos and that there is a Jedi Academy there, but if we side with General Vaklu, who tells Nihilus to attack Telos? And why would Kreia want Nihilus to attack Telos?
I think Tobin(aboard the Ravager) mentions that she told him, no matter who the Exile sides with. As for the reason Kreia wanted that? Two reasons. The first is, that it brings him out into the open, allowing himself to be attacked. And the second is, that he is already lacking in places to sate his hunger. Trying to feed on Telos, is like trying to save oneself from death in a desert, with naught but a few drops of water.

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Nihilus could not sense the Jedi Council meeting on Dantooine (when they tried to strip the Exile of the Force) because it was difficult to sense Force Sensitives on such worlds, then does that make Telos any different?
There is a difference in being able to sense where something is, and knowing that it's there. Why try scouring the galaxy for something, when you know exactly where it is?

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And when Atris asks Kreia who she is, Kreia says "I am the one who ordered him to be exiled". Is this true?
It could be, but either way, it makes sense. If the Exile goes to the Council, and they listen, then there is ample reason for trust. If the Exile goes to them, and they not only don't listen, but they wish to Exile her, then there is reason for the Exile to doubt them, if she hadn't before.

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Atris also says: "These Sith are spawned of you, spawned of the Mandalorian Wars... all those deaths, all those Jedi"

So the Sith DID learn those techniques from the Exile?
When exactly did the Exile give lessons on this? But then again, Atris is just like the rest of the Council. She does not know about Nihlius(never-mind the advertising), and if there are Sith that have a power similar to the Exile's, who do you think she is going to mention first?

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Originally Posted by arsenalforever View Post
Atris said that Kreia was waiting at Malachor for the Exile, where she intended to create another echo that would deafen and kill all Force Sensitives. I wanted to ask, that how she intended to trigger another echo? By making the Exile kill her at the heart of Malachor? Then she succeeded didn't she?
Yes, and no. Her, and obviously the Exile's action's changed things, but the force still exists.

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And Atris said that if the Exile did not follow her to Malachor, she will kill herself, resulting in the death of the Exile as well. Did she mean this or was it another one of her lies? I think she was speaking the truth, because if she killed herself on Malachor, the Exile would be caught unprepared and would die of the pain too (like on Dantooine (dark side version))
For what reason, at that point, would the Exile have to not go to Malachor? Beyond the fact that the game forces you to, there isn't much to that thinking, since even if you could travel to Malachor just like the other planets, having a scene where Kreia actually does it(say if you take a certain amount of time finishing quests, etc), it would be interesting, but annoying.

Also, Kreia does specifically tell the Exile that she will kill herself if they don't come to Malachor. The possibility might not make one prepared for something, but if you know it might happen, you are better off than not knowing at all.

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Old 06-18-2012, 08:27 AM   #79
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I think Tobin(aboard the Ravager) mentions that she told him, no matter who the Exile sides with.
The cutscene plays only if we side with the Queen.

And from the video, can you please tell me what Kreia means between 4:32 to 4:39?

Quote:
Yes, and no. Her, and obviously the Exile's action's changed things, but the force still exists.
Well Kreia said that if echoes like the one the Exile created were created in succession, it would lead to the death of all Force sensitives. But I think the magnitude of these echoes are not all the same.

Obviously, the magnitude of the echo created by the activation of the MSG is much larger than ones created by small acts of charity or cruelty.

In order to kill these Force sensitives, an echo of a magnitude similar to the one created by the Exile at Malachor must be triggered, and Kreia thought that the magnitude of the echoes created due to her death at the hands of the Exile at Malachor would be enough to kill the Force Sensitives? Surely not?

If she wants to kill Force Sensitives, she would have to come up with a better plan that would create echoes of a larger magnitude right? If she wanted echoes, she could've just let Nihilus consume Telos lol

And when asked why Kreia chose the Exile when there were many other Jedi, she says

"No Jedi ever made the choice you did. To sever ties so completely, so utterly, that it leaves a wound in the Force. It was mistake to make you try and feel it again, I see that now. There is no truth in the Force. But there is truth in you exile, and that is why I chose you"

1. It was the loss of lives that left a wound in the Force, not the severance of ties by the Exile.

2. Why was it a mistake to make the Exile try and feel the Force again? Didn't Kreia get what she wanted?

Last edited by arsenalforever; 06-18-2012 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 06-18-2012, 11:34 AM   #80
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The cutscene plays only if we side with the Queen.
Yes, but I didn't mean that scene. I mean when you speak with Tobin aboard the Ravager, he mentions that Kreia told him about Telos, regardless if you side with the Queen or Vaklu.

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And from the video, can you please tell me what Kreia means between 4:32 to 4:39?
"The destruction of the Order, the Masters, was not an end in itself. I did not expect them to still live."

It simply means that she was unaware that they were still alive. It wasn't in her original goal to find them, but given that they were still alive, it would've been foolish for her to ignore them.

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1. It was the loss of lives that left a wound in the Force, not the severance of ties by the Exile.
Yes, but it is because of those lost lives that she had to do it.[/quote]

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2. Why was it a mistake to make the Exile try and feel the Force again? Didn't Kreia get what she wanted?
Yes, but with her goal of getting rid of the force, she teaches her student to use it. Perhaps it does go along with her ideal of using the force like a poison, but given that the Exile would rely heavily on the force, it should be obvious to anyone that the Exile would fight against such a goal, dark or light.

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