Wanting a reason to believe

[Canderis]

Alright. I'm an atheist. And I hate it. The most frightening thought to me is that when we die, that's it. I can't imagine what true nothing is like. I just cannot grasp it. But unfortunately, because of how my mind works, that is what I believe happens when we die. I really wish I could believe in something different, a religion or something, just to help make the end a little less scary, but I can't just believe in something to believe in something. I can't do it. I could say I do, but then there's still that thought hidden behind the believing exterior. It's really hard to have a positive look on life and think like this. Does anyone else feel the same way? Can anyone help me change my belief?

PS. If this has to be deleted or locked for any reason, I'm sorry for causing trouble.

[TKA-001]

Roman Catholic, and a lot of the time it's hard as balls to believe. My advice, stay calm and carry on for the moment, in all circumstances keep up appearances, and look to the people you trust in real life rather than the internet for further advice on this matter.

Also, don't say that you want to find something you'd feel more comfortable to believe. Say that you want to find the truth of the universe.

[Samuel Dravis]

First of all, there's no reason for this to be locked. This is the section of the forum for this kind of stuff!

Second, I recently watched a good video which may show you that you can be more comfortable with the beliefs you have rather than the ones you think you should have. Being honest with yourself is a good policy. Watch here.

I am not sure how to make dying less scary, since that never really came up as a problem for me. Alan Watts had a great bit which might help you, though-- just to put a little perspective on things. Watch here.

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

I'm a Christian (though I don't consider myself a very good one). I'm willing to give you my perspective on the issue.

To me, there simply has to be an first cause for the universe, for everything that exists. If we're buildings, something had to build us. If we're programs, something had to code us. "Something coming out of nothing" doesn't make sense to me.

I've been told since my childhood that the first cause is the God of Christianity. So I decided to see if that God existed or not.

What I eventually came to understand is this: 1. The Christian God exists. 2. If you want to "see" whether he exists or not, you have to want to know him (note: not "know of").

By my understanding, God is not a litmus paper that you can stick into a pot of chemicals to see what happens. The fact is, he's a person, and has desires and motivations in the same way we do (though perhaps not at the same level). And as a person, his policy regarding revealing himself is to do it to people that want something to do with him.
You don't have to know who he is, specifically, but if you really want to know the real god/godlike entity (note: not "know of") that exists, he is willing to oblige you. Your motivations matter in this, and God knows when they're valid or not.

How he reveals himself from person to person is not set. In can be in a number of ways - the uniting factor in the experiences is that you *know*, without a shadow of a doubt, what just happened, and who it was. My theory regarding this is that somewhere, deep down in our psyches, there is an imprint of what His presence is like - like a forgotten memory of a person's face. You may not be able to bring the face to mind, but when you see it, you immediately know who it is.

Whether this imprint is obtained from traces of unconscious sensing of God in the world, or whether we were born with it, I don't know; but it's there, like a dormant instinct.


Regarding your specific situation, colloquial existential Nihilism seems to me as the only logical conclusion of Atheism. I don't understand how atheists can keep from moving into that ideology. (That's not an insult, it's a genuine question.) From what I can tell, most just occupy themselves collectivism or individualistic pursuits to distract themselves from the question. It seems to work until for some reason or another, the distractions, or ability to pursue distractions is taken away, and the person is forced to consider to logical emptiness that lays before them.

If you have trouble believing in the supernatural because you don't know how it works, let me pose this question to you: Do you have trouble using an appliance because you don't know how it works?

Personally, I don't know how the microcomponents in my computer work, but I'm pretty sure I have a computer. How? Because I can use it. If I tried explaining the concept of my computer to someone who's never seen post middle-ages technology, they would be perfectly valid in disbelieving it. This does not change the fact that I have a computer, however, and am able to use it like one.



Anyway, that's my belief regarding supernatural contexts of our existence. I make no implication of coercion regarding it - take it as you will.

[Canderis]

Saying I'm an atheist is too strong of words. I'm agnostic really. I believe that there had to be a higher power to start everything. But beyond that I really don't see evidence, true evidence, of it actually doing anything beyond that. I see my phone and I know it works. I may not know how it works, but if I really wanted to know, I could take it apart and figure it out. With god, I cannot find anything that is unbiased proof. The word of some book isn't proof enough for me. I can't pretend it is, because it will never be enough for me, and nobody has been able to show me real proof that isn't a logic fallacy of some kind. I wish I could but I can't.
As for nihilism. I can see myself drifting towards that, hence why I posted this thread.

[kyrie]

I don't post too much over here anymore but I had to post on this topic since I have had a personal experience with it. I died of a heart attack on 12 Sept. 2011, and based solely on my own experience I can say there is no God or at least no God that wanted anything to do with me. All I can remember about my death was the complete and utter blackness that I saw. Before death I was agnostic, but after I became a full blown atheist. Not sure if this helps or makes you more fearful of death with all you said in you o.p., sorry Canderis

[Alexrd]

Originally Posted by kyrie

I died of a heart attack on 12 Sept. 2011,

You died or your heart stopped on that day for moments?

Either way, many reports from people (many of them atheists) who had NDEs claim to have a vision of afterlife.

[Canderis]

Originally Posted by Alexrd

You died or your heart stopped on that day for moments?

Either way, many reports from people (many of them atheists) who had NDEs claim to have a vision of afterlife.

My grandpa had one, but it's impossible to know if he had the vision while he was actually dead or when he was unconscious.

[supreme kotor]

Canderis please allow me to congratulate you for posting this. Death, Religion, and everything associated with it are usually very uncomfortable for anyone to talk about.

I will start off by saying I am a Christian, and I think a lot like you I wanted solid proof. I grew up a Lutheran and have very recently switched to a non-denominational church. Let me tell you upon switching to a non-denominational church it was almost as if I was slapped in the face with why God had to be the awnser. My second week at the church the pastor brought in a scientist who was against God and asked him many different questions. The scientist was unable to disprove God and did not even have a valid argument against much of what was asked. In the end this scientist explained it like this: (and I am sorry as its exactly the awnser a someone struggling with religion does not want to hear)He said scince cannot disprove God nor can it prove God.

Unfortunately this brings me to the sad conclusion that I have personnaly drawn; Just as you expect to wake up when you fall asleep you have to just expect that there is a God and if there is not, what the hell could you have done about it anyways?"

Hope this helps-Supreme Kotor

[Alexrd]

Originally Posted by Canderis

My grandpa had one, but it's impossible to know if he had the vision while he was actually dead or when he was unconscious.

The interesting part of the reports is that it's supposedly impossible to have a vision (or any kind of senses) because there was no brain activity. The fact that people can retain their counsciousness (even describe places and conversations by other people) in such state is, at the very least, intriguing.

[purifier]

Originally Posted by JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan

To me, there simply has to be an first cause for the universe, for everything that exists. If we're buildings, something had to build us. If we're programs, something had to code us. "Something coming out of nothing" doesn't make sense to me.

A similar thought like that, years ago, is one of the reasons that keep me from being a full atheist. I was raised as a Baptist, then one day decided I didn't believe in god anymore and started to lean towards atheism. But the problem was, I wasn't really sure, because that didn't really feel right to me either. So I started reading tons of books on every spiritual subject from Christianity to Pagnaism to New Age to Metaphysics. And after all the years of studying, researching, making my own conclusions, I came to that same conclusion among many other conclusions. So now, I've found my own path and have reason to believe there is some sort of creator and there is some sort of consciousness after death. I just don't believe in what atheist or religions say anymore; not saying they are not a 100% right about some things, but maybe only half way right about some things.





@Canderis: Don't know what to tell you, man. Except that no one can really tell you what to believe on this subject, you have to find your on path and beliefs. Whatever makes sense to you. So I suggest reading lots of books on everything pertaining to religion and other beliefs, research, research, research, as I did. Empower yourself and gain knowledge on the subject. Maybe you will find what your looking for that makes sense to you and gives you peace of mind. All I know is, what the atheist say doesn't feel right to me or what the religious say doesn't feel right to me, so their must be a third possibility, a third answer. For me that was the case, for you...I don't know, man. I mean that's up to you.

Anyway, my two cents.........

[Apoc Nizmith]

Wow, I didn't expect to come across a deep and profound thread such as this. Let me start by saying this, HIGH FIVE! Canderous, if you feel that there is a higher power out there or you are hopeful that there is, then you owe it to yourself to trust yourself. I am agnostic as well, hopeful that there is a loving God waiting after death but never really seeing this Deity's influence on our world. There is hate, war, famine, diseases, sickness NAME IT, and we see these horrible things happening and it leaves us with this "Schrodinger's cat" feeling about the exsistance of a God. But one thing is true, everytime I see someone help a complete stranger, or I wake up to my wife's smile, or a million other good things in this world (Like these caring people giving you a big verbal hug) it gives me hope, as it should you man, and I am sorry I cannot vouch for there being this divine supreme entity, I can vouch that there are good people, and that we only live once (unless your Hindi, or Buddhist or others that believe in re-incarnation) and we should do our damnedest to surround ourselves with them, be one as often as we can, and if we were wrong our whole lives about there maybe being a God then we wont notice, but if the part of us that says there is is right, and we did good things and were good people then we still have absolutely nothing to fear. Hope this helped?

[kyrie]

Originally Posted by Alexrd

You died or your heart stopped on that day for moments?

Either way, many reports from people (many of them atheists) who had NDEs claim to have a vision of afterlife.

I was dead twice within minutes of being revived, not completely sure but I think I may have died a third time on the way to the hospital. I talked to the guy that gave me CPR, and brought me back the first time, about a week later he said I was dead for a good 5 minutes. I am willing to have a conversation with anyone who wants to know more, but it should be via PM. But anyways back on topic.

I should rephrase what I said about what I believe, atheist doesn't quite cover it. I do believe in a higher power, but my idea of God or gods is a little different. I believe all the world's religions are based off of visits from different species of alien visitors to this planet in the past. I don't know about any of you but if I had an encounter with an alien species that could make it to this planet I would think they were a god.

[Samuel Dravis]

Originally Posted by JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan

Regarding your specific situation, colloquial existential Nihilism seems to me as the only logical conclusion of Atheism. I don't understand how atheists can keep from moving into that ideology. (That's not an insult, it's a genuine question.) From what I can tell, most just occupy themselves collectivism or individualistic pursuits to distract themselves from the question. It seems to work until for some reason or another, the distractions, or ability to pursue distractions is taken away, and the person is forced to consider to logical emptiness that lays before them.

If it helps as an illustration, I am comfortable being atheist (I am not uncertain in any way about God's existence) and yet I am certainly not a nihilist, instead preferring modern Aristotelianism.

Nietzche may get a bad rap sometimes, but he was dead on that most of the time people just pay lip service to Christian values. What is lost when you declare yourself atheist at that point?-- not much. But it would be a terrible mistake to assume that rejecting religion means necessarily embracing nihilism, a point which he was specifically critical of.

Of course, that's not to say I didn't go into the nihilist phase for a while as a result of apostasy, though I think that was at least partially due to simply not knowing about other methods for finding meaning. Even if you do know though, it's hard to completely change your values system, and it takes a long time to really accept a new method of value after being with Christianity for most of your life.