Sailing

[Joshi]

Cramped... it was a fairly old one. None too impressive really, when you're 11 years old, you expect more flashy lights and big red buttons.

[Fealiks]

The overall design of space shuttles hasn't really changed much in 40 years... maybe they are all slacking off and pretending to know what they are doing... yeah that's it... it's all a conspiracy...

[Joshi]

Or perhaps the current design works well enough for now (although a better way of escaping earths gravity would be nice...space elevator, space elevator!).

[Fealiks]

Oh, what so all of a sudden function is more important that aesthetics? WE'RE IN THE 21ST CENTURY, NEIL.

[Joshi]

Uh oh, who told him.

[Fealiks]

Brace yourself...

::DRASTIC TOPIC CHANGE::

Most people here have probably heard about the Mexican emo Massacre thingy where hundreds of walking Mexican abortions ran through the streets of Queretaro in Mexico, out to murder people they saw as emos.

Another similar story is that of a murder in the UK of a 20 year old girl. Apparently she was in the park enjoying herself, probably skipping and singing, with her boyfriend when her boyfriend was attacked by a couple of young men because he (and his girlfriend) were dressed like goths. His girlfriend cried over her battered boyfriend and then the two men attacked her and murdered her to death.

DISCUSS.

[Joshi]

People are dicks.

[Fealiks]

No, you've obviously never done this before. You have to say "I blame the...", adding whichever agency, person(s) or concept you feel it necessary to blame. Then you can add that people are dicks.

[Joshi]

Oh, okay... um... I blame video games dicks and violent movies dicks.

People are dicks.

[Fealiks]

Despite the fact that I enjoy violent games/movies, I don't think you can deny that they must play some part in it all. Yeah, I have the balls to admit it!

[Joshi]

The way I see it, violent video games seem to be much more of an outlet for disturbed people. I shouldn't think they give people urges, it'd be like drinking a drink that makes you thirsty. I'd say that violent movies do give certain people urges, but then as someone who's watched violent movies since he was 5 and is yet living a life of non-violence, I'd say that the person would have to be somewhat disturbed to begin with to be affected by such mediums.

[Kjølen]

Don't you people listen to Jack Thompson? Video games are the bane of the natural world. They are the anti-Christ which lure innocent people and transform them into murderers and pedophiles with the powers of Hell, under the cruel guise fiction.

[Joshi]

http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20051012

[Fealiks]

Well I always hear people at school bragging about how they know how to kill people or they know all these amazing fighting moves because they saw it on TV or in a game. If someone already has the potential to hurt someone, this sort of know-how could give them the potential to kill someone. I'm not saying ban violent games or films, I love violent games and films. I'm saying BAN PEOPLE WITHOUT A SUBSTANTIAL INCOME FROM HAVING BABIES TO PREVENT POTENTIAL CHILDREN FROM HAVING POOR LIVES.

There. I said it. I'm Hitler. So what.

[Joshi]

I know how to kill people from reading about it on the internet. Should that be a cause of violence now? seriously, the only people who'll kill someone because of what they learn from a video game or television show are the kind of people who'd have killed anyway.

[Brighteyes]

Funny, just watched "Quadrophenia" that film pretty much explains it.

[Thrik]

But of course, thousands of years ago these kids would have been taught killing moves as young as possible so they could hunt/defend their village/etc.

Violence isn't ever going to be stamped out of humanity. By and large, it's less prevalent today than it's ever been. When was the last time your town was invaded, every man/boy killed, and every woman raped?

One could very easily argue that television and whatnot has helped reduce the violence. But in reality, they wouldn't be because anyone with an ounce of sense knows it's not even close to being the primary influence.

[Fealiks]

Originally Posted by Joshi

the only people who'll kill someone because of what they learn from a video game or television show are the kind of people who'd have killed anyway.

That's what I'm saying, it could make killing easier for people who would have killed anyway. Imagine someone with some sort of mental problems watching a graphic violent film and then thinking "yeah, that's just like me, I'm badass like that" and then going out and performing what they saw on someone. They could have done it anyway without watching the film, but their chances of success would probably have been lower.

[Joshi]

Would they? I'm sure by taking away video games and TV you're just prolonging the inevitable.

[Thrik]

Fealiks, do you have any evidence of even several killers going out to commit murder after watching a television programme, game, or film? Because if you don't, you have no leg to stand on and cannot possibly continue your argument.

"I'm sure that..." arguments are a waste of time for everybody. Facts, facts, facts!

[Ray Jones]

Originally Posted by Thrik

Facts, facts, facts!

Neil's best friend Joey Anaconda out rules an average school bus in both, size an circumference.

[Joshi]

Joey Cobra... and it's really only in size.

[Fealiks]

Originally Posted by Joshi

Would they? I'm sure by taking away video games and TV you're just prolonging the inevitable.

I don't want to ban TV, I've already made that clear. I like TV.

Originally Posted by Thrik

Fealiks, do you have any evidence of even several killers going out to commit murder after watching a television programme, game, or film? Because if you don't, you have no leg to stand on and cannot possibly continue your argument.

"I'm sure that..." arguments are a waste of time for everybody. Facts, facts, facts!

You'd be an idiot to deny that watching these films and playing these games can give you ideas of how to kill someone.

[Thrik]

You'd be an idiot to try and argue a point without any evidence to back it up.

Watching television and movies may very well give you ideas about how to kill someone, but so do magazines, martial arts classes, various fighting sports, play fighting, and many other things that've been part of the world regardless of the existence of television and film.

And if you're now going to say we should take all those away too, then what the hell? Are you suggesting we just sit around doing nothing for fear that we might be shown a possible way of killing someone (which is a natural instinct of almost all animals upon this planet, I might add).

A killer is going to kill regardless of whether or not he sees new techniques for doing it on television. It doesn't take television to teach you that twisting someone's neck around 180° will kill them, as will driving a piece of metal through their torso. Killing is killing, and humans know their own bodies well enough to know what'd do the job.

Your whole "They might see ways of killing!" argument is crazy. In most cases television and film is based on real life anyway, so wouldn't it be just as influential to go look at all those police, soldiers, and mobsters out there carrying guns and killing each other at times?

I suggest you look into what actually drives people to kill, Fealiks. You'll find that in practically all cases it isn't watching a television programme or film that triggered it, but a loved one pissing them off or something like that. Perhaps you'll find a few fringe cases of it happening, but that's it.

[Fealiks]

For ****s sake read what I'm writing.

I don't want to ban anything:

Originally Posted by Fealiks

I don't want to ban TV, I've already made that clear. I like TV.

Originally Posted by Fealiks

I'm not saying ban violent games or films, I love violent games and films.

And I didn't say that violent media would trigger anything, I clearly said that it would just move things along

Originally Posted by Fealiks

They could have done it anyway without watching the film, but their chances of success would probably have been lower.

See? What I'm saying is, if someone with the potential to kill sees someone do it on TV, it could give them the confidence, and sometimes the know-how to succeed.

And this isn't a court case, it's a friendly argument, I don't have to provide evidence for everything I say. Logic should be good enough.

[Joshi]

Originally Posted by Fealiks

And this isn't a court case, it's a friendly argument, I don't have to provide evidence for everything I say. Logic should be good enough.

Have you ever had an argument on the internet? You'd be happy to be in an actual court case, those on the internet are a lot less forgiving. It's all about facts and evidence here fealiks, and since you're already connected to the internet, it shouldn't be hard for you to bring up a few facts to back up your argument, logic won't cut it.

[Fealiks]

While I can't tell if your being sarcastic or not, I don't have the equipment necessary to conduct any psychological studies and gather the aforementioned facts, and I can't be bothered to see if said studies have already been carried out (I've heard of some of these studies and I know how to spell several words so I know what I'm talking about).

[Thrik]

So what you're basically saying is that you're making presumptions about whether or not television and games have and do encourage people to murder if they're so inclined, but don't have any formal or even anecdotal evidence whatsoever to back it up.

As long as we're clear!

We could end up in a very long and detailed psychological debate here, so I'll just conclude my side of it by stating that I don't believe television or games have a significant influence on whether or not somebody chooses to kill, and that in most cases it's a critical factor that causes it (eg: being dumped by girlfriend, being bulled one time too many at school, desire to commit another crime and not go to jail for it, etc).

[elTee]

I think it's important to note that from a young age people associate a sense of ceremony with watching films. What I mean to say is that when you're a kid, you either watch a film at the cinema, which is quite an event, or you watch it at home which requires use of the TV for about two hours and so has to be (generally speaking) pre-arranged. The effect this has is to cause a lasting dissociation between films and 'real life', if only because of the pre-arranged nature of it all when placed in comparison to the spontanaity of life. And this does not bring into account the important factors of common sense and logic.

Similarly with games, as a child you have no idea how the hell they work - but you do know how to operate them. You have to do this yourself - put the cartridge in, set the TV etc. - so there's very little suspension of disbelief purely because you have engineered the entire scenario in the first place.

But it's irrelevant because if people want to do awful things to each other, it doesn't matter where they get their ideas from, does it? Whether you kill someone based on a fantasy of your own construction or if you do it a la Hannibal Lecter, the net result is identical. The reason that A Clockwork Orange was 'banned' in the UK is because Kubrick himself asked for it to be removed from distribution after some copycat incidents, and the subsequent death threats he received. The irony in that should be clearly apparant; someone does something bad 'inspired' by Kubrick's film, and that in itself acts as 'inspiration' for someone else to channel similar instincts.

I've not added anything to this, or said anything that hasn't really been said already - and I don't have evidence, either - but don't you agree that it's all irrelevant?

[Ray Jones]

I'd say that when kids and young people play games and watch movies which are basically suggesting "Any problems? Solve with a healthy, Hollywood-like portion of violence!" it actually can give them an idea about what they could do in case they fail to solve real life problems otherwise. It's not about what they do in particular, it's that they do it.

[Kjølen]

So what, are we all just suggesting that we should ban the media? If someone watches a violent movie and thinks "Okay, this could work, in case everything else fails," I don't think we should place blame on the movie for giving this person the idea, rather their own damn parents for not teaching them some f*cking morals. In conclusion: their life was f*cked up before they watched the violent movie.

[Joshi]

Originally Posted by Fealiks

While I can't tell if your being sarcastic or not,

I'm not.


But, winner of the good timing awards go to Stephen King...
http://kotaku.com/376518/stephen-kin...-game-violence

Originally Posted by Ray Jones

I'd say that when kids and young people play games and watch movies which are basically suggesting "Any problems? Solve with a healthy, Hollywood-like portion of violence!" it actually can give them an idea about what they could do in case they fail to solve real life problems otherwise. It's not about what they do in particular, it's that they do it.

Give me one good example of a film that glamorises violence and I'll give you a n example of a film that probably brought in large box office returns and yet I wouldn't suggest any more than 1% of the thousans of people that saw the movie solved their problems with a "healthy, Hollywood-like portion of violence!"

[Fealiks]

Originally Posted by Kjølen

So what, are we all just suggesting that we should ban the media? If someone watches a violent movie and thinks "Okay, this could work, in case everything else fails," I don't think we should place blame on the movie for giving this person the idea, rather their own damn parents for not teaching them some f*cking morals. In conclusion: their life was f*cked up before they watched the violent movie.

That's exactly what I've been saying.

[Ray Jones]

Originally Posted by Kjølen

]I don't think we should place blame on the movie for giving this person the idea, rather their own damn parents for not teaching them some f*cking morals. In conclusion: their life was f*cked up before they watched the violent movie.

No one wants to place blame on any movie or game. All I say is, there might be a dependency between the violent behaviour of young people and violence in the media, especially if they don't know better. More at least than there is between Monkey Island games and violence, for instance.

It is sad enough that there are kids and young people whose life is ****ed up. And it's not their fault that their parents are idiots who are not teaching them a minimum about values and morals.

Of course, it's not our fault either. But at the end of the day, its our world they keep ****ing up because when they look anywhere else than their asshat parents, they see nothing different.

Originally Posted by Joshi

Give me one good example of a film that glamorises violence and I'll give you a n example of a film that probably brought in large box office returns and yet I wouldn't suggest any more than 1% of the thousans of people that saw the movie solved their problems with a "healthy, Hollywood-like portion of violence!"

This is not about good examples and counter examples, Neil. It's about balance and setting examples.

[Joshi]

Right, but again, if a kids parents don't set them on the right path from the beginning, exactly what chance do they have, media or no?

[Joshi]

Okay, so I've no idea who came up with the results for this, or what, but it's fairly interesting...
http://i25.tinypic.com/2r6ns4y.jpg

[Ray Jones]

Originally Posted by Joshi

Right, but again, if a kids parents don't set them on the right path from the beginning, exactly what chance do they have, media or no?

They chance of seeing that there is something else than only two people (if at all) being "unsuccessful" in raising children.

Besides that, at some point in a child's life it's not learning that kind of stuff exclusively only from its parents any more. When they attend kindergarten, it's that they have a couple of hours where they learn from other kids (and indirectly these kids parents) and the teacher. While that isn't a bad thing, the parent's direct control during that time is not given.

[Joshi]

Very true, but it still oes come down to the parents. If the parents of the mass majority aren't doing their jobs properly, then there's nothing we can do. The fact that such violence is on TV or in games doesn't mean a kid should be subjected to it.

That said, I've been around violent TV and Games my entire life and haven't once decided to go out on a killing rampage. I thank my parents upbringing for that and certainly not my friends growing up since most of the ones I had at an age where we were most impressionable grew up to mostly be troublemakers. They all pretty much had the same access to the media's I did and since we were all friends, we all influenced each other, and yet we ended up differently.

Leads me to believe our parent have the most influence of us as children, we see them as authority figures, we look to them ultimately for guidance and, like monkeys, we follow by their example.

[Kjølen]

One whole month, and not a single post? Oh, how the great have fallen.

[Samnmax221]

^**** those people.