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Old 02-01-2003, 01:50 PM   #1
razorace
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Space Shuttle Explosion

What do you guys think of the space shuttle explosion? While it might seem like terrorism, the chances of terrorists planting a bomb or hitting the shuttle with a missile are basically nil.

The shuttle is very carefully weighed since every pound of stuff on the shuttle costs thousands of dollars.

Also, a normal AA rocket couldn't reach that far into the air.

Still, with the first Israeli astronaut on board it was a tempting target....


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Old 02-01-2003, 02:06 PM   #2
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Just a fine example of why we need to get the new one in the air...that old piece of **** can't handle it anymore
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Old 02-01-2003, 02:20 PM   #3
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That's easy to say but NASA's budget has been getting cut back every year.


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Old 02-01-2003, 02:33 PM   #4
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I don't think it's was a terrorist attack. Too unlikely and illogical. If the Israeli did it, what would be the motive? To cut off Israel as USA's ally? Go figure.


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Old 02-01-2003, 02:40 PM   #5
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I never even suggested that the israelies would consider bombing the shuttle! Where you pull that from?!


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Old 02-01-2003, 02:53 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by razorace
I never even suggested that the israelies would consider bombing the shuttle! Where you pull that from?!
That was how I heard it on the news - They thought an Israeli onboard a US space shuttle was too good a chance...

Sting'ering the shuttle is both impossible and unthinkable in US land. Planting a bomb in a tight-security shuttle sounds ludicrous as well.

Let' put it this way: If it was indeed a terror attack, it has failed. People are passing it off as a structural failure (and rightfully so). For terror attacks to be effective, you need to show, with no inkling of doubt, that it's you who did that.

9/11 was a success because it was immediately apparent it was no mere flight plan gone astray.

If it was a terror attack, I wonder how the terrorists are feeling right now, when no one are even thinking about connecting it to them. If it looks like an accident, smells like an accident and sounds like an accident, it probably is an accident. The terror attack has failed by now if there ever was one.

Of course, I'm open to the possibility that the terrorists are going to appear on TV with a confession that it was them who did it. But I doubt they have the guts to do that, seeing what happened to Afghanistan. If it was Palestinians who did it, I seriously don't think they'd risk for the US to obliterate them.


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Old 02-01-2003, 03:31 PM   #7
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No way "terrorists" as you call them did it...no point....you have to think strategy...they are up against such a big force....about the only way to win is to destroy key things in the U.S.'s economy.....

What possible interest is there in a space shuttle flight?


I know they make it out as it's all for the sole purpose to kill innocent lives....but that is complete bull****.
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Old 02-01-2003, 03:37 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by RoguePhotonic
What possible interest is there in a space shuttle flight?
Space shuttles are a symbol of the US.

"What possible interest is there in the Statue of Liberty?"...

'Thing is, if it doesn't get known that it's a terrorist attack, it has failed.


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Old 02-01-2003, 07:17 PM   #9
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Very good point C'jais. I do not believe it was a terrorist attack, if it had been, it would have been made know that it was. Astronauts must always be prepared for danger or something going wrong when travelling to and from space, in a day and age when space travel is relatively new to us. They all take the risk, and risk their lives, just like these people did. I believe that it was a genuine accident, and a tragic one at that. All we can extract from this tradegy is what went wrong, and how we can stop it happening in the future.


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Old 02-01-2003, 07:35 PM   #10
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Razor, it cost more than thousands, try billions.


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Old 02-01-2003, 08:17 PM   #11
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I said, per pound, not per year. Check your math/source.


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Old 02-02-2003, 12:34 AM   #12
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It wasn't terrorists. We've already had reports and stories of what happened:

During take off, a chunk of ice fell off one of the external fuel tanks and hit the wing, knocking off a few vital heat tiles. During entry to the atmosphere, the kinetic energy transfered to heat energy, heating up the structure of the shuttle beyond capacity, causing it to break up. Nothing extraordinary or terrorist related.

However, if it was terrorists....one word.

Bastards.
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Old 02-02-2003, 02:51 AM   #13
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Boy if that's true, the whole team that said that the shuttle was ok-dokie after some telescope checks are canned for sure.

I'm not sure that's the case thou. If that's what caused the accident, ether that team is totally blind or it was a 1 in million chance that came up snake eyes.


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Old 02-02-2003, 04:46 AM   #14
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Well either Terrorist got brave or a undetectable missile etc. So that counts them out...Personally I think on of the heat shielding had enough stress that it flew off CNN reported earlier today or yesterday that a few of them was getting ready to fly off. I think when that happened if it happened, the heat hit the fuel I mean like CNN.com said reentry can reach up to 3000 degrees. And yes most of the shuttle fleet needed alot of work redone you think with all the Technolgy we have now of days we could of at least come with a way to enter space alittle easier.



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Old 02-02-2003, 06:53 AM   #15
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i have to agree with invader here, my thought exactely



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Old 02-02-2003, 06:54 AM   #16
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Let's clean up a few facts -

Whilst Columbia was the oldest Shuttle, built in 1979, it had just gone through a 19 month retrograde, the first planned for the rest of the fleet. Whilst it's shell may have been 23 years old, many of the inner components were not, most of them being the latest and greatest pieces fitted to the Orbiter.

Whilst it is 1970's design, that of the same era, or later than that used in Boeing 747's, F-14 Tomcats, F-15 Eagles, F-16 Falcons, E-6 Prowlers, SU-71 Blackbirds and U2 spyplanes, which are all currently operational US military hardware, it is agreed upon if the Shuttle had been designed now, the basic shape would still remain the same, the aerodymanic design is right.
The speeds that it had to cope with meant that little changes would have been noticable if we had designed on recently.

It is known that there was loss of hydraulic pressure to elevons on the left wing, which help control the shuttles descent in what is nothing more than an unpowered glide back into earth's atmosphere. Along with this is the change in pressure in the landing gear in that same wing, with the nitrogen filled tyres starting to feel the effects of what ever was going wrong up there.
It is also known that a piece of foam insulation, which was most likely covered with ice due to the extreme cold needed to keep the propellants stable, did break off from the large external fuel tank. This fuel tank is no doubt already in NASA's hands, being examined along with any remaining debris. It did appear to hit the left wing, which was later examined via high quality footage, and telescopes from Earth, and engineers passed it fit.
No one has confirmed, or denied that any tiles actually left the wingtip of the Shuttle Columbia. It is not actually rare for the shuttle to be missing some on return to earth. What may have been where this one that might've fallen off was positioned. On the leading edge of the wing is where most heat is built up, any heat allowed in through here would heat up the aluminium airframe. The wing would then most likely fall off, followed by an out of control Shuttle exposing areas to heat that they were not designed to handle.

It may have been the piece of ice, or it may have just been that the hydraulics had failed, causing the computer controlled glide and slide, to end up destroying the craft as heat entered the airframe.

Known current technology allows SAM's to reach 40 km altitude, along with the ability to track and hit targets that travel at approx Mach 3. This is approx where the SU-71's operating limit, at these heights, perhaps up to 50 km's from the earth's surface.
The Shuttle was 63 km up, along with travelling at Mach 15 or more. I assume if it was AAM, the US would've detected the intruding aircraft or missile in their airspace.
To even assume terrorism, or even mention this word in association with this event, is ludicrous.


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Old 02-03-2003, 07:00 PM   #17
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The left wing was missing some tiles. You can see it in the video. It doesn't matter if someone that said it was ok to return. Even if they didn't how in the world would the repair it up there? Send another shuttle and risk the two running into each other? It sickens me that one of the first things that was said by some news station(not sure which one) was that it was a terrorist attack. Even before anyone at NASA had said anything. They didn't check it will a telescope, the shuttle has tons of cameras on board that are used to check for something like this.

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Old 02-03-2003, 09:09 PM   #18
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Thank you BCanr2d2. I hate it when cowboy Americans (no offense to professional cowboys) go out and say things like "Its terrorists!" Without doing any scientific exploration of any sort...


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Old 02-04-2003, 07:25 AM   #19
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Hate to see anyone go off at situations, and not even logically think about what is possible.

Hard to understand that as NASA looks harder at the video of the piece of ice/foam falling off the external fuel tank, that NOW they see what it has done....

Anyway, it would be technically impossible to have cameras on the bottom of the Shuttle to look for any problems there. Not only would they burn up on re-entry, they would also give small areas on the bottom of Shuttle that would allow for heat leak into the main structure....

The cameras in the Shuttle are actually more associated with the cargo bay, so that they can monitor the astronauts and robotic arm. If NASA told them to look for damage, I am pretty sure there was a way to get around them not having to return. The Robotic arm with a camera, or an astronaut in a suit could've done it for them. The only reason they actually checked for the piece of foam hitting the wing, was that everything had gone so well, they had nothing else to do...
After all, there is the International Space Station they could've docked with, and then send up another Shuttle to get them home.


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Old 02-04-2003, 07:57 AM   #20
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The terrosist thing is pro-war propaganda. Why not blame every disaster on terrorists so we go into the middle east with flags a wavin' and guns a blazin'...... really! Pathetic! NASA makes mistakes people, alot. Space Exploration is dangerous, especially since I have known Navy ships that have been Decominished that are much younger than that old ass shuttle. I don't care how much maintenance you put into it, you cant make the damn thing last forever.
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Old 02-04-2003, 10:51 AM   #21
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Doom to fags

Read and despair. (PDf. file)

Just one question: Can we all agree that this zealot needs psychiatric treatment?


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Old 02-04-2003, 11:08 AM   #22
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Just a comment to the notion of repairing in space: The damage was on the underside of the hull, which means that it was impossible to repair in space. As for sending up another shuttle: Without being an expert I don't think that they have the oxygen supply to hang around in orbit while another shuttle is prepared.

Quote:
Read and despair.

Just one question: Can we all agree that this zealot needs psychic treatment?
I doubt that they could even get a priest to back that. And that's saying something.

And yes, he does need psychiatric treatment (or a firing squad detail).

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Old 02-04-2003, 11:11 AM   #23
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I too first questioned if this was perhaps God's way of telling us to stay out of space. I too am a Baptist, however after reading that, one cannot help to wonder if he had a nice tall glass of intolerance with his breakfast. What I was always tought, was that it was our mission to save people and forgive, not to condemn. Guess I didn't go to the same church this guy did. Thank God for that!
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Old 02-04-2003, 11:17 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Groovy
I too first questioned if this was perhaps God's way of telling us to stay out of space.
And if it is interpretted that way, it will prove once more that God doesn't know what he is doing. Seriously: We have to expand beyond Terra, or be destroyed in a specicidal war, or so I believe, at least.

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Old 02-04-2003, 05:13 PM   #25
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Well, thinking long term here. We'll have to leave earth eventually. The sun isn't going to last forever.


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Old 02-04-2003, 05:33 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by razorace
Well, thinking long term here. We'll have to leave earth eventually. The sun isn't going to last forever.
Well, that's thinking long term indeed!

I'm thinking in the more immediate future than that. We're already getting too many people on the planet, and while the population growth will be less enourmous than it is right now, there's no indication that we'll ever stop getting more and more people.

Resources are also a concern. Unless we found that miraculous cure for all the energy problems, we're going to have a power shortage.

All in all, when too many people are crammed together with inadequate supplies, violence is bound to erupt sooner or later.


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Old 02-04-2003, 08:46 PM   #27
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i dont think anyone was behind it at all i think it was a freak acident-now they are saying people warned of it and all that but think about all the sept. 11 rumors.


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Old 02-05-2003, 06:39 PM   #28
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My girlfriend's dad and myself both agreed mere minutes after learning of the disaster thought that we had heard of the piece of foam, not ice, that fell and struck the left wing of the orbiter. We also thought, well, there should have already been a contingency plan to get the astronauts out of the shuttle to personally inspect the damage of the shuttle. They had 16 days to work with, surely they could have taken 5-10 hours out of the day to inspect the damage and relayed their findings to NASA whether through voice communications or even email for that matter. NASA really botched this mission big time. if I was in charge of the Mission and learned that there was damage to the shuttle, I would have grounded it before it even entered space. But because of NASA's overconfidence and stupidity, 7 people are dead, and they are rightfully taking the heat, which they should.

I guess i should also note that it would be impossible for any surface to air missle projectiles to reach the orbiter, so any land-based terrorist attack would be futile. The Personal Stinger missle according to classified specs, can only reach 5-10 miles, where as the shuttle was over 200,000 feet (207,??? in the air) or almost 40 miles into the air. So firing the missile at it would be a wasted missile and waste of time.


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Old 02-05-2003, 06:54 PM   #29
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It's a true pity for NASA, the guys down there must feel so guilty, it's a shame. Unforunately it seems that our explorations into Space will be ultimately delayed, I can only hope that we send another shuttle up in the next 3 years. Damn freaking wars, they waste so much money so that lives can be destroyed; if only the world could come together and fund NASA so that colonies in Space could be a possibility..




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Old 02-07-2003, 03:56 AM   #30
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I am agreement with some of you here, that it has taken less time than the Shuttle was in space for them to almost make quite a clear statement about what happened. As for the foam piece, remember that it surrounds an extremely cold tank, which makes the piece of foam most likely to be full of water, or frozen into ice, not just simply some foam..

Andy, it only takes 8 1/2 minutes, or 510 seconds for the Shuttle to be at orbiting height, it is one hell of a quick ride, tell me you could've made a decision in the 2 or 3 minutes that they had, to jettison the external tank, and external rockets, along with somehow manouvering the shuttle - in air it is only a glider, THEN not to have it too high in the atmosphere to have the problem of heat in the landing. I think you ask way too much of NASA to be able to do that.


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Old 02-07-2003, 04:09 AM   #31
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It should be noted that NASA doesn't think that the foam caused the accident. They're estimating that the piece of foam would only weighed 2.5 pounds. There's no way a 2.5 pound peice of foam could have cause that much damage (if any).


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Old 02-07-2003, 04:15 AM   #32
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But take 2 or 3 pounds accelerate it to roughly 500-1,000MPH, and aim it at your car, and see what damage it does. You have to realize that once the orbiter started taking off the mere inertia or force driving the Shuttle would cause the some proportion of force to throw the foam into the wing, which NASA themselves agreed caused a roughly 7" long hole in the left wing, which is more than enough to cause critical problems to teh orbiter.


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Old 02-07-2003, 04:25 AM   #33
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I'm not sure I agree with your math.

This foam came off the shuttle, it wasn't falling from the sky. Yes, the shuttle is accurating like a bat out of hell, but I'm not sure that a piece of foam could come off the shuttle and hit at a speed to cause mission critical damage.


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Old 02-07-2003, 07:12 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by razorace
but I'm not sure that a piece of foam could come off the shuttle and hit at a speed to cause mission critical damage.
A gram of paint is enough to rip through the hull of your ship in space. A bucket of paint is enough to tear the ship apart in half at that speed.


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Old 02-07-2003, 07:37 AM   #35
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It's a case of the Shuttle hitting the foam, not the other way round, think of that way.

It's the same kind of logic that people tell you when you drop a coin from a height, if it hits something, it will do a lot of damage to whatever gets in the way. It will also leave a mark in the ground, or concrete that it lands on too.
Grab a 1 kg weight, and then think about how something like that being hit by something going at about Mach 1 or so, then tell me it wouldn't do any damage. The tiles aren't indestructible, they are extremely heat resistant, which would tend to make me think they are of a ceramic base, which explains the ease in how they might've chipped/broken/moved.
Perhaps at the end of this, what may happen is that the leading edges of the wings will have some form of protection. The Shuttle will not be out of action for the same kind of 32 month time delay that happened after Challenger. Challenger was a case of faulty equipment, not an accident. They had to go through every single supplier and audit their production so that an act of shoddy design and manufacture wouldn't cause such an accident..


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Old 02-07-2003, 11:42 AM   #36
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I don't care if it was either terrorists, human mistake or system faliure. It was just terrible. Think of the familys, who have to live on, without their father, uncle etc...I feel for them.


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Old 02-07-2003, 03:40 PM   #37
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I'll remind everyone that the foam had the momentum of the shuttle when it detached. It's not like it was traveling at terminal velocity straight down. The math is very complicated and I can't say what the foam impact speed would be.


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Old 02-07-2003, 03:51 PM   #38
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But in all seriousness, {MGS}Echuu, it is because of severe human error that the families are having to deal with this great loss. If NASA had implemented an in-orbit repair procedure, there is a good chance that columbia would have landed in one piece. So, as you can see the cause and effect theory taking place. The cause: The foam hit the wing. The Effect: All 7 members of the space shuttle Columbia died in-flight.

Well razorace, if it was going the speed of the shuttle, which i have heard numerous times as well, it was going approximately 1,100mph into the wing.


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Old 02-07-2003, 04:05 PM   #39
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yeah, in the SAME direction as the shuttle, the impact speed would be far, far less.

NASA doesn't think that the foam cause the accident. I don't think it did either. It's just the scrapgoat of the media.


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Old 02-07-2003, 04:18 PM   #40
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I remember hearing just mere hours after the explosion, NASA was saying that body parts had been found.

Quote:
Originally posted by Yahoo! News
_Forensics experts say they are confident remains of Columbia crew members can be genetically identified. Johnson Space Center spokeswoman says remains of some astronauts have been found in rural east Texas.

Quote:
Originally posted by CNN.com
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Photographs taken by an Air Force tracking camera shortly before the space shuttle Columbia disintegrated show serious structural damage to the shuttle's left wing, an aviation magazine reported Friday.

The images, captured about a minute before the shuttle broke apart, show a jagged edge on the left wing structure near where the wing begins to intersect with the fuselage, according to a report in Aviation Week & Space Technology.
Razor, one thing we have to remember though is that once the foam was detached from the shuttle, for a brief second it is suspended in air, and within that second, the shuttle is still moving at 1,100mph+, which then strikes the foam piece, which when weighing 2lbs, can cause some serious damage.


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