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Old 03-20-2003, 10:55 AM   #41
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A saber hilt is not heavy!! I'd would rate it at - let's say - Apple-type weight!!

Pick up a banana, hold it like a lightsaber hilt and wave it. How complicated was that? Even monkey's can manage it...

Bah - I'm giving up. Kray may disagree with me about saber throw, but at least he got the point I was trying to make...!

*ceases to bang his head against a brick wall*

Ahh! That's better...!


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Old 03-20-2003, 01:48 PM   #42
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I beleive Alesh and Littleman has a point. We've never seen anything other than simple telekenetic powers in the movies. Slow and gentle or straight as an arrow.


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Old 03-20-2003, 01:58 PM   #43
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Razor,

I know Alesh and Littleman have valid points about the nature of the force. As do you...

But only Kray has given me any credit for the point I'M trying to make - which is that analysing the inner workings of the force doesn't nessesarily help in determining what movie realism is.

Fine - you lot are right. I'll give up trying to convince any of you that this saber phantom thing should be at least theoretically possible.
You've written up your 500-point document which defines what the force can and can't do - by evidence seen from the films, quantum physics and all known eastern philosophies.
By the way, you might want to send that to George. God forbid he might break your laws in the next film...

My point is - that's not nessarily how you determine movie realism!

Just realised I've butted my head against the wall again!!
Damn it!

I'm off to duct-tap my skull back together and find a really strong helmet.
Till then, I really am calling it a day on this...


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Old 03-20-2003, 03:16 PM   #44
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Well i tought MotF was trying to stay true to the movies, and that's what i saw (of course the force doesn't make any sense, it's not like they tought about how it works before using it).

Anyway I won't say you can't mindswing a saber, but i don't think it would be a very strong hit, and probably the only thing you'd get is a hilt cut in half.
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Old 03-20-2003, 03:30 PM   #45
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Alesh,

I'm not trying to be an arse - honestly I'm not - but you are totally missing my point...

I didn't suggest the phantom saber thing because I thought it was a great gameplay idea. I NEVER want to see that - in my game, in MotF, or in any other game!

I came up with it to show you what I define as movie realism.

To me, movie realism is what is in the movies - full stop.

Even saber throw is too much for me 'movie-realism' wise. It doesn't matter that you can say 'it makes perfect sense - it should be possible'. To me, that's missing the point.

If I'm fighting a Jedi, and that Jedi keeps throwing his saber at me and pulling it back to him mid-flight, I'm thinking 'Hey - I never saw this in the movies!'
Full stop!

Again - and I can't stress this enough - I'm not saying my opinion is right, and yours is wrong. It just seems that no-one is actually getting what my opinion is. I don't give a rat's arse how the force works. I don't think I NEED to if I am to make sure a SW game is realistic to the movies - THAT'S my point!

If your opinion is that's not a valid point, shut up, your obviously not a REAL Star Wars fan - go away, then fine. Just say so. And then I'll give in and leave you guys to carry on mapping out 'The Properties of the Force' encyclopedia...


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Old 03-20-2003, 04:29 PM   #46
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Woah buddy, lets lay off the "your obviously not a REAL Star Wars fan" talk. You can still love Star Wars even with a more EU view of the Force.

As for MotF, the mode will have saber throw with a serious retooling. Saber throwing has been seen in the movies but it was used (with poor effect) against an unarmed jedi. If the Chosen One can't hit much with it, I doubt anyone can. The saber throw will probably be for against snipers. Tossing the saber while dodging the shots or something...


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Old 03-20-2003, 04:41 PM   #47
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Razor,

Do you actually properly read anything I post?
I said that's what you might accuse me of!!

And are you saying that when Vader threw his saber at Luke, he was actually attempting a saber throw, but it went wrong or something? he didn't pull it back? Or he forgot to?

That was ONE instance - as far as I'm concerned, done for dramatic effect and nothing more.
(Personally, I think Vader threw the saber at Luke to point out the emotional termoil he was going through at having to fight his son - but that's just my interpertation...)

To use that as a justification to call saber throwing movie-realistic is a REAL stretch.

Not stretching what the force can do, (I don't wanna go down that road again..), but the idea that was a normal thing a Jedi would do in the first place.

Like you say, the saber is your life. it's a reckless thing to throw it away! And Vader, uber-powerful jedi - didn't have the power or the sense to pull it straight back?!

hang on - I've just realised something! I assume that Vader walks over and picks up the saber off the ground. But of course, you could argue that he pulled it back after a short pause - it was off camera after all...

OK - I'm not going to try and go on about this too much, because the 'evidence' can be interpereted different ways...
But do you accept it's at least possible that might be in the film just for dramatic effect, and NOT an indiciation of normal, average saber combat?

Please - give me a bone!! For the love of Yoda!!


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Old 03-20-2003, 05:01 PM   #48
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I think i'm lost...
What I was saying is from what i've seen in the movies, what seems the force can do, I don't like the saberthrow fights either and i haven't read anything of the EU so i don't know if somebody used it apart from Vader (and i think he did it more to scare Luke or something like rather than really hurt him).

PS: Yes i think it was a dramatic thing rather than a usual combat move (as said it would be pretty suicide).
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Old 03-20-2003, 05:08 PM   #49
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It's OK Alesh - I think sense got left behind quite a while ago!

i think we should go back to comparing the saber hilt to fruits!

The shape is certainly more like a banana, but I'm reconsidering the weight.

Maybe it's more like a small grapefruit...

I'll do more tests and get back to you...


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Old 03-20-2003, 07:32 PM   #50
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Renegade i think i agree with your previous posts but your responses make me think i'm missing something...
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Old 03-20-2003, 07:37 PM   #51
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Sorry

I guess sometimes when I think people aren't trying too hard to understand me, instead of knuckling down and trying to explain myself more clearly, I decide to become sarcastic and 'clever'...

And that - in reality - is not actually that 'clever'!
My bad...
Apoligies to all...

My last post was 'meant' to be a joke...

...boom boom.


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Old 03-21-2003, 03:06 PM   #52
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If you listen to the RotJ carefully, Vader force pulls his saber back to his hand as he's walking down the stairs. You don't actually see the saber but you see him motion to catch it and reactivate it. It's very subtle.


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Old 03-21-2003, 04:58 PM   #53
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Razor,

OK. I believe you about that. If I can be bothered, I'll watch the film again at some point, but from what I can remember, I'm sure you can easiely see it that way.
I wouldn't go so far as to say it's conclusive, but it's certainly more than possible.
Even if it is, I could argue that that's not exactly the 'saber throw' I've seen in the game, but that's not the crux of my argument anyway...

If that is enough to convince you that saber throw is 'movie-realistic', then fair enough.

I still don't agree, even if Vader did do what you say in the film. I still think it's not justification enough to have Jedi's potentially throwing and pulling saber's back to them every few seconds...

But, I admit you have a point. It depends where you draw the line...

it would have been nice if you could have at least admitted I may have a point too, but I guess that's too much to ask...

Your correct, it's your mod. You may choose as you like...


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Old 03-21-2003, 05:33 PM   #54
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Renegade i don't think neither me or razorace have said throwing the saber every few seconds is ok, I find it really crappy and nothing like the movies even if we accept saber throw is in them (and it wasn't guided), that's why razorace is redoing saberthrow to make it more limited to certain situations as i understand it.
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Old 03-21-2003, 05:36 PM   #55
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What more justification do you need? If it's in the movie, it's in the movie.

Obviously, it'll have to be carefully redone or it'll will be abused. I imagine the fatigue cost, having to recover the saber manually, and teh defenselessness will be enough of a insentive to not spam it.


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Old 03-21-2003, 05:46 PM   #56
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Yes, very true...

What you've just listed will make it better than normal JKII...


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Old 03-21-2003, 05:58 PM   #57
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I want to add a comment towards the original topic of the thread..

I felt that the beginning of the game had a great movie autmosphere. When things queited down you could hear the classic 'beeping' from when obi turned off the Death Star's tractor beam. The ambient music during slow times also matched that mood. When things picked up the music was also very Ep 4ish. Another thing that kept it movie feeling were some of the level aspects. Alot of wall textures resembled Star Destroyer and Death Star textures a TON. And every Imerpial computer console looked EXACTLY like how they did in the movies. But soon after the Kejim base things started to become less like the movies.

I have to give Raven som slack, because they surely can't limit all of their levels to exact SW envirnments. Artus Mine was a entirely unique level, but alot of it reminded me of the trash place in cloud city (on the screen for five seconds...) and a little like the trash room in the Death Star. However, I expected to the detention area to look a bit more like what we saw in the Death Star. I assumed this because the Imperials like to make everything uniform, and exactly like everything else (clones, anyone?), so a similiar cell block design to the death star's probably wouldn't be too far fetched to suggest.

Few problems with enemies during the beginning... those brown dudes with the yellow blasters. Uh... who are these guys? I've never seen or heard of them before JO. And we never got to see the stormtrooper gatling gun. I'd rather have that than Raven's repeater gun/shotgun. The crossbow also behaved in a way that was surprising to me. I never played the first JK, so I'm fresh from the theaters.. and quite honestly the crossbow bieng a slow moving non deflectable fat blob of green blaster really took something to get used to.

Since most of my complaints in the last paragraph didn't really happen until later, I think the beginning of the game was the ideal movie to game experience. Kejim base was damn good as far as the SW feel goes.


So it goes.
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Old 03-21-2003, 06:06 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by razorace
What more justification do you need? If it's in the movie, it's in the movie.

Obviously, it'll have to be carefully redone or it'll will be abused. I imagine the fatigue cost, having to recover the saber manually, and teh defenselessness will be enough of a insentive to not spam it.
hmm.. fatigue cost? Watch out now.. while I do like RPG's, I like straight forward action games too. I believe giving the player the inconvenience of having to pull it back on his own, taking more time and attention from battle, will be enough to deter spamming. And when it comes to moves like saber throw, simply detering abuse of the move is all that's really needed.

edit- or did I read that wrong, and you just mean mental fatigue to the player? I don't think adding stats to the game is a good idea. The force stats are RPG enough for this action game.


So it goes.
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Old 03-21-2003, 08:08 PM   #59
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Fatigue will be the name for the points force powers, dodge and other things will spend when the mod is in a more advanced stage, instead of having dodge points and force points as it is now.
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Old 03-21-2003, 08:29 PM   #60
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Not entirely true. Dodge and Fatigue will still exist as seperate meters. Fatigue is a measure of battle fatigue instead of just force powers. Fatigue is much larger than the current Force meter than Force Powers will also cost more.


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Old 03-21-2003, 09:18 PM   #61
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Dodge needs to be seperate so it will be possible to kill someone other than just wearing down their Fatigue.


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Old 03-21-2003, 10:31 PM   #62
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Have you changed this or did i misunderstand you when you explained it? Anyway seems fine to me, not everybody dies tired :P
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Old 03-22-2003, 01:40 AM   #63
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No change. The whole Dodge/Fatigue concept has been around since the beginning. I just haven't mentioned it in a while. Been too busy working on smaller design projects.


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Old 03-23-2003, 05:33 PM   #64
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Hmm... while I'm a little on the fence about the fatigue thing, I do have a suggestion that will make that addone less of a stat thing and more to do with the physical gameplay. With JKIIMP, I never liked how the players had ultimate Robotron abilities. What I mean is.. they can go from rest to sprint in an instant, as well as suddenly sprint in an entirely different direction. It sounds like the fatigue thing is staying in your mod.. so perhaps you can make it so fatigue is used when running back and forth in zany directions that are too impossible for the human body. Just a suggestion, but I think it'll be a good incentive to get players to slow down in duels, and not be so berserker with their sabers.


So it goes.
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Old 03-23-2003, 07:31 PM   #65
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*shrug* Momentum stuff is hard to do without making player feel unresponsive. I'll look into it thou.


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Old 03-23-2003, 09:44 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by razorace
*shrug* Momentum stuff is hard to do without making player feel unresponsive. I'll look into it thou.
yeah, the thought occured to me that it would sooner frusterate the player than add hightened excitment through realism. But think of it this way.... when standing still (yourself, in real life) you can jet off in a givin direction much like the animations in the game. But stopping and jetting off in the opposite direction is a little harder. If you can manage a system that allows a player to jet from standing, but have slower responses when changing directions... then the player would still be able to get the responsiveness gameplay--when stepping smart--as well as realism of momentum issues.

I can imagine that'll be difficult to code... and even more so to shove over the internet in an MP game. I think even a simplified verson would be of value, because the opponent the player faces has the same handicap, right? It's like an equation, what you do to one side you do to the other, as long as the sides are equal you can do whatever you want to acheive the right numbers. (In this case, its movie realism. And for that, we simply need to slow things down. JKIIMP is insanely fast.)


So it goes.
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Old 03-23-2003, 10:42 PM   #67
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I'll try messing with it at some point. Unless you're going full tilt in real life, you can stop on a dime. This could be used as an additional encouragement to not run all time.


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